Export thread
The U.S. Army and Haiti
#1
Rob King
Rob King
I joined an email list used by missionaries, academics, and other people who have an interest in Haiti, to do some research for an eventual trip to Haiti. Some of the things that have been circulating on that list are frightening. Some articles and opinion pieces have been forwarded through.
The gist of what I'm getting is that nobody knows what the US Army is doing. They've taken control of the airport in Port Au Prince, but were prioritizing military flights until yesterday when the UN intervened. Since the earthquake, someone who claims to know someone at the airport has said that as many as 50 flights (including one carrying an entire mobile field hospital setup) have been turned away. Now, that's not a whole lot considering that 300 flights have landed, but it is a significant amount. I realize that an airport can only handle so much and having been to Port Au Prince's airport, I can tell you that it isn't very big, but there are those on the email list who are asking why there have been no temporary airfields set up to alleviate the strain on the airport.
Beyond that, the US Army has said that they've set up a distribution point near the airport, and are also receiving supplies via helicopter from the Dominican Republic. But several of the missionaries on the email list have informed us that they haven't seen any of those supplies. None of the other missionaries of the dozens on the list have stepped up and assured us that they are receiving supplies. A few have mentioned that the US has been evacuating it's citizens (understandable) and wealthy Haitians (what?), as well as bringing aid to the westerner-frequented hotels/neighborhoods in the city.
Outside of Port Au Prince, missionaries have reported that they haven't seen supplies either. A missionary in Petit Goave, 50 miles outside of Port Au Prince (which was actually closer to the epicenter of the earthquake) informed us of this two days ago. Today someone in a community just 10 miles south of Port Au Prince informed us of the same.
One missionary informed us of something bizarre as well: The IDF (yes, the Israeli Defense Force) has had a mobile hospital set up for a few days. As of this morning, CNN has been reporting that the US Army has yet to establish one.
People are also asking questions about what General Ken Keen of US. Southern Command was doing in Haiti, as well. In an interview on CNN, he stated that he was in Haiti when the earthquake struck. Obviously nobody is suggesting that the US is responsible for the earthquake, but it does raise some questions, particularly about the nature of the relationship between the current Haitian government and the US. The Haitian government has basically collapsed in the aftermath of the earthquake. Other than reassurances that the president is indeed alive, nothing official has been said via radio, and nobody has seen anybody of any authority taking any action. People are beginning to interpret this as a revelation of a weak government, powerless on it's own, and functioning as only a puppet of the west. It's important to understand a brief bit of Haiti's history to understand the suspicions:
History inside
These points of data suggest a grim trend. While an earthquake could not be inflicted or predicted, there is concern that the US is taking advantage of the situation with a strategy of Disaster Capitalism. Some are suggesting that reports of looting and violence are being exaggerated, in order to justify the US presence as 'Security.' Most missionaries on the email list have noted that there has been very little violence, and what 'looting' has happened is excusable (or at least understandable) with the understanding that Haitians are hungry and desperate, and aid is slow to come.
Many of the attitudes expressed on the email are increasingly suspicious of what the Americans are doing in Haiti. Some are even suggesting that the UN stabilization mission in Haiti should be expelled, as they are effectively trying to prop up a puppet regime orchestrated by the US.
I hope people are exaggerating, and looking for people to blame in the midst of this tragedy. But everything I've read before the earthquake, especially coupled with these on-the-ground reports from missionaries and academics on the ground, leads me to believe that there's some truth in all of this.
[[I apologize if this is illegible. It's late, and the more I read/type, the madder I get about this situation. I wish I could re-read this another time to make sure it's sensible enough to post, but instead I'm going to hit 'submit' and go to bed. I hope this leads to some discussion, particularly since Haiti is in the public consciousness in a big way.]]
The gist of what I'm getting is that nobody knows what the US Army is doing. They've taken control of the airport in Port Au Prince, but were prioritizing military flights until yesterday when the UN intervened. Since the earthquake, someone who claims to know someone at the airport has said that as many as 50 flights (including one carrying an entire mobile field hospital setup) have been turned away. Now, that's not a whole lot considering that 300 flights have landed, but it is a significant amount. I realize that an airport can only handle so much and having been to Port Au Prince's airport, I can tell you that it isn't very big, but there are those on the email list who are asking why there have been no temporary airfields set up to alleviate the strain on the airport.
Beyond that, the US Army has said that they've set up a distribution point near the airport, and are also receiving supplies via helicopter from the Dominican Republic. But several of the missionaries on the email list have informed us that they haven't seen any of those supplies. None of the other missionaries of the dozens on the list have stepped up and assured us that they are receiving supplies. A few have mentioned that the US has been evacuating it's citizens (understandable) and wealthy Haitians (what?), as well as bringing aid to the westerner-frequented hotels/neighborhoods in the city.
Outside of Port Au Prince, missionaries have reported that they haven't seen supplies either. A missionary in Petit Goave, 50 miles outside of Port Au Prince (which was actually closer to the epicenter of the earthquake) informed us of this two days ago. Today someone in a community just 10 miles south of Port Au Prince informed us of the same.
One missionary informed us of something bizarre as well: The IDF (yes, the Israeli Defense Force) has had a mobile hospital set up for a few days. As of this morning, CNN has been reporting that the US Army has yet to establish one.
People are also asking questions about what General Ken Keen of US. Southern Command was doing in Haiti, as well. In an interview on CNN, he stated that he was in Haiti when the earthquake struck. Obviously nobody is suggesting that the US is responsible for the earthquake, but it does raise some questions, particularly about the nature of the relationship between the current Haitian government and the US. The Haitian government has basically collapsed in the aftermath of the earthquake. Other than reassurances that the president is indeed alive, nothing official has been said via radio, and nobody has seen anybody of any authority taking any action. People are beginning to interpret this as a revelation of a weak government, powerless on it's own, and functioning as only a puppet of the west. It's important to understand a brief bit of Haiti's history to understand the suspicions:
History inside
2001: Jean-Bertrand Aristide elected president for the second time. He had been elected in 1991, but had been ousted by a coup shortly after. During his term as president, many perceive that he stood up against the oppressive western forces in Haiti. His grandest act was to demand that France offer Haiti 21 billion USD in reparations.
The history on that one is as follows: shortly after Haiti (France's crown jewel in the new world at the time) won it's independence, France sent a fleet to retake the colony. Trying to avoid a war which they would lose, the Haitians agreed at gunpoint to repaying France 150 million gold francs for the losses incurred by the French plantain owners when they won their independence. 150 million gold francs is estimated to have been twice Haiti's net worth at the time. It took Haiti over one hundred years to repay the debt, and even then they never did cover the entire cost. So that was the logic behind Aristide's demand. The value of the repayments come out to roughly 21 billion dollars in today's currency, and the Haitians want it back because they think it should never have been paid in the first place.
Whether or not this was a reasonable, or even a genuine demand is immaterial. It at least demonstrates that Aristide was willing to be a pain in the ass, and stand up to the west.
2003: A closed door conference is held in Montreal, Canada, where American, Canadian, and Latin American officials met to discuss the future of Haiti's government. No Haitian officials were present. What happened at the conference has not been revealed officially, although claims are that the conference concluded that a regime change was necessary. See The Ottawa Initiative
2004: A rebellion began in the north of Haiti, eventually threatening the life of the president. The US Army evacuated president Jean-Bertrand Aristide from Haiti for his well being. He now lives in South Africa, where he claims he was brought out of Haiti by the US Army against his will. Meanwhile, an interim president is installed until general elections could be held. After many delays, elections held in 2006, and the current president was elected.
The history on that one is as follows: shortly after Haiti (France's crown jewel in the new world at the time) won it's independence, France sent a fleet to retake the colony. Trying to avoid a war which they would lose, the Haitians agreed at gunpoint to repaying France 150 million gold francs for the losses incurred by the French plantain owners when they won their independence. 150 million gold francs is estimated to have been twice Haiti's net worth at the time. It took Haiti over one hundred years to repay the debt, and even then they never did cover the entire cost. So that was the logic behind Aristide's demand. The value of the repayments come out to roughly 21 billion dollars in today's currency, and the Haitians want it back because they think it should never have been paid in the first place.
Whether or not this was a reasonable, or even a genuine demand is immaterial. It at least demonstrates that Aristide was willing to be a pain in the ass, and stand up to the west.
2003: A closed door conference is held in Montreal, Canada, where American, Canadian, and Latin American officials met to discuss the future of Haiti's government. No Haitian officials were present. What happened at the conference has not been revealed officially, although claims are that the conference concluded that a regime change was necessary. See The Ottawa Initiative
2004: A rebellion began in the north of Haiti, eventually threatening the life of the president. The US Army evacuated president Jean-Bertrand Aristide from Haiti for his well being. He now lives in South Africa, where he claims he was brought out of Haiti by the US Army against his will. Meanwhile, an interim president is installed until general elections could be held. After many delays, elections held in 2006, and the current president was elected.
These points of data suggest a grim trend. While an earthquake could not be inflicted or predicted, there is concern that the US is taking advantage of the situation with a strategy of Disaster Capitalism. Some are suggesting that reports of looting and violence are being exaggerated, in order to justify the US presence as 'Security.' Most missionaries on the email list have noted that there has been very little violence, and what 'looting' has happened is excusable (or at least understandable) with the understanding that Haitians are hungry and desperate, and aid is slow to come.
Many of the attitudes expressed on the email are increasingly suspicious of what the Americans are doing in Haiti. Some are even suggesting that the UN stabilization mission in Haiti should be expelled, as they are effectively trying to prop up a puppet regime orchestrated by the US.
I hope people are exaggerating, and looking for people to blame in the midst of this tragedy. But everything I've read before the earthquake, especially coupled with these on-the-ground reports from missionaries and academics on the ground, leads me to believe that there's some truth in all of this.
[[I apologize if this is illegible. It's late, and the more I read/type, the madder I get about this situation. I wish I could re-read this another time to make sure it's sensible enough to post, but instead I'm going to hit 'submit' and go to bed. I hope this leads to some discussion, particularly since Haiti is in the public consciousness in a big way.]]
#2
Adammon
Adammon
There's a tremendous amount of aid trying to get into a country that doesn't have the infrastructure to support it. It's ridiculous that people are jumping up and down about the US making significant efforts to get aid to the people who need it.
It's not an easy job coordinating a hundred countries all with their own aid packages at the same time that all critical infrastructure has basically been destroyed. I applaud the efforts that the US army is making and wish them Godspeed. We have 16 kids down in Haiti that we're trying to get home, but they have to wait because there are far more important things happening here. People are dying - those inconvenienced by not having a hotel to stay in are just going to have to STFU.
(Part of the problem is that supporters here want to send a private plane to go pick them up. This isn't an uncommon thought amongst countries with civvies in Haiti. However, every plane that flies in to pick up people to take home replaces a plane bringing in aid.)
It's not an easy job coordinating a hundred countries all with their own aid packages at the same time that all critical infrastructure has basically been destroyed. I applaud the efforts that the US army is making and wish them Godspeed. We have 16 kids down in Haiti that we're trying to get home, but they have to wait because there are far more important things happening here. People are dying - those inconvenienced by not having a hotel to stay in are just going to have to STFU.
(Part of the problem is that supporters here want to send a private plane to go pick them up. This isn't an uncommon thought amongst countries with civvies in Haiti. However, every plane that flies in to pick up people to take home replaces a plane bringing in aid.)
#3
Dave
Dave
The US military is coordinating because nobody else is!! Jesus tapdanciing Christ! First people get pissed because they "took so long to get there" and now that they are there people are bitching?
Let me give you an example, if I may. The military was first dropping food and water to the population because they couldn't land. People started fighting over it and there were even more injuries. So the military established a foothold and started giving out supplies at a faster pace, keeping people safe and letting it go to those who were not the strongest and fastest.
Rob, I love ya buddy, but if nobody took the reins more people would have died.
Save your conspiracy theories for the Kennedy assassination or the moon landing and let the military help these people without fear mongering.
Let me give you an example, if I may. The military was first dropping food and water to the population because they couldn't land. People started fighting over it and there were even more injuries. So the military established a foothold and started giving out supplies at a faster pace, keeping people safe and letting it go to those who were not the strongest and fastest.
Rob, I love ya buddy, but if nobody took the reins more people would have died.
Save your conspiracy theories for the Kennedy assassination or the moon landing and let the military help these people without fear mongering.
#4
Rob King
Rob King
Well, this is the problem. According to the allegations, the US Army has not done as much good as it should be doing considering the number of people they have in Port Au Prince, the US's proximity to Haiti, and the control that they have on the ground.There's a tremendous amount of aid trying to get into a country that doesn't have the infrastructure to support it. It's ridiculous that people are jumping up and down about the US making significant efforts to get aid to the people who need it.
#5
Adammon
Adammon
I want to point out another couple things.
Port-au-Prince has one port. This port has one 1970's era container crane. It was destroyed in the earthquake. They have to rebuild the entire port from scratch before they can even start getting aid in there. That's going to take months.
The UN in Haiti lost the top 3 principles there so they've lost significant leadership and planning.
Here's another problem: http://www.news.com.au/world/haiti-...perate-survivors/story-e6frfkyi-1225821100653
"While hundreds of millions of dollars have been pledged to help Haiti, aid is still not reaching some of the hardest hit areas because survivors are too scared of attacks on aid convoys to accept assistance."
I'd suggest reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_rescue_efforts_after_the_2010_Haiti_earthquake
It's pretty significant and heartwarming that so many have stepped up to help complete strangers. And once again, I'm happy to donate to Doctors without Frontiers.
Port-au-Prince has one port. This port has one 1970's era container crane. It was destroyed in the earthquake. They have to rebuild the entire port from scratch before they can even start getting aid in there. That's going to take months.
The UN in Haiti lost the top 3 principles there so they've lost significant leadership and planning.
Here's another problem: http://www.news.com.au/world/haiti-...perate-survivors/story-e6frfkyi-1225821100653
"While hundreds of millions of dollars have been pledged to help Haiti, aid is still not reaching some of the hardest hit areas because survivors are too scared of attacks on aid convoys to accept assistance."
I'd suggest reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_rescue_efforts_after_the_2010_Haiti_earthquake
It's pretty significant and heartwarming that so many have stepped up to help complete strangers. And once again, I'm happy to donate to Doctors without Frontiers.
#6
Rob King
And I get that it probably sounds ridiculous, but there is a historical precedent that nobody can deny. I don't mean to come off as a whacko nutjob here. I'm just concerned that US Government Aid might also serve the function of political intervention, which does not serve Haiti in the long run. Similar to how there has been questioning in the past as to why Israelis get to lobby the US Government freely, I just don't want to see an undue influence in Haiti. Or rather, I don't want to see more undue influence than there is there already.
I wouldn't have the Americans turn around and go home right now. I just want to be sure that they'll be willing to turn around and go home once the mess is cleaned up and the Haitians ask them to leave.
Rob King
BBC and CNN both report that airdrops began yesterday, the 18th. The BBC explains that airdrops were ruled out before due to fear of violence. I guess in the wake of New Orleans, that's a valid fear. So you're half right, at the very least. But again, for all the talk of violence in the wake of the earthquake, all I'm getting through this email list from missionaries in Port Au Prince, is that there have been very few isolated incidents.Let me give you an example, if I may. The military was first dropping food and water to the population because they couldn't land. People started fighting over it and there were even more injuries. So the military established a foothold and started giving out supplies at a faster pace, keeping people safe and letting it go to those who were not the strongest and fastest.
I understand that somebody had to take over, and it might as well be the Americans (again, because of geographical proximity, and the fact that air traffic control is all done in English anyhow). But even elements within the UN have questioned the US Army on their prioritization of landings, and the French have requested that the US's role in Haiti be clarified (although the French do like to sometimes be a pain, so that one is circumstantial). And the UN did intervene and ask that the American Air Traffic Controllers give higher precedence be given to civilian aid at the airport.Rob, I love ya buddy, but if nobody took the reins more people would have died.
Save your conspiracy theories for the Kennedy assassination or the moon landing and let the military help these people without fear mongering.
And I get that it probably sounds ridiculous, but there is a historical precedent that nobody can deny. I don't mean to come off as a whacko nutjob here. I'm just concerned that US Government Aid might also serve the function of political intervention, which does not serve Haiti in the long run. Similar to how there has been questioning in the past as to why Israelis get to lobby the US Government freely, I just don't want to see an undue influence in Haiti. Or rather, I don't want to see more undue influence than there is there already.
I wouldn't have the Americans turn around and go home right now. I just want to be sure that they'll be willing to turn around and go home once the mess is cleaned up and the Haitians ask them to leave.
#7
Rob King
Rob King
Alright, sorry. Maybe I'm just going crazy. I'm exhausted from work and school, and at this point I'm getting upwards of fifty emails a day through this list, from people on the ground, which has gotten to be quite emotionally draining. Perhaps it's fear and anger that is intensifying it now, but there has widespread suspicion of the US in Haiti since long before this earthquake. And that has been the theme of many of the reports that we've been getting, so perhaps my perception is being colored.
Please don't get me wrong. I know that there are honest motivating factors that are bringing the US Army to Haiti this time, and I'd never demand that they stay away from/leave Haiti, given the current circumstances. I'm just afraid (and I'm not the only one) that this tragedy might be taken advantage of in an undue way, allowing the US to get away with something more audacious than they would normally be able to.
Please don't get me wrong. I know that there are honest motivating factors that are bringing the US Army to Haiti this time, and I'd never demand that they stay away from/leave Haiti, given the current circumstances. I'm just afraid (and I'm not the only one) that this tragedy might be taken advantage of in an undue way, allowing the US to get away with something more audacious than they would normally be able to.
#8
Krisken
Krisken
Mythbusters already covered that oneSave your conspiracy theories for the ...moon landing ...
#9
@Li3n
@Li3n
New protectorate for the US... high-five everyone!
#10
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Plus the Earthquake Beam works! Maximillian will be so pleased!New protectorate for the US... high-five everyone!
#11
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
This is why I never donate to the Red Cross. You never know where the hell your money is going. I've donated directly to missionaries from churches already there because they know the people and how best to help their specific region. Another good organization to donate to would be towards anyone you know personally working for the Peace Corps in that area. Throwing money at a problem rarely ever solves it.
#12
fade
fade
Honestly, Rob, I thought the same thing. I also thought the same thing others have mentioned--that the US is damned for not doing enough, and damned for doing too much. Still, the conspiracy theorist in me wonders what the strategic advantage of Haiti might be...
#13
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
Conspiracy theory: The U.S. is helping Hati to show the world we have a kind heart, before we crush them all. FOR DEMOCRACY!!!!!!!!Honestly, Rob, I thought the same thing. I also thought the same thing others have mentioned--that the US is damned for not doing enough, and damned for doing too much. Still, the conspiracy theorist in me wonders what the strategic advantage of Haiti might be...
#14
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
We also have to understand that the people who may be recieving the aid offered by our army might not be people who need it. They might be working for a black market and sending employees to grab as much as they can so they can re-sell it at a premium and make a killing.
#15
Dave
Dave
That has nothing to do with our military. They'd do that regardless of the avenue of distribution.We also have to understand that the people who may be recieving the aid offered by our army might not be people who need it. They might be working for a black market and sending employees to grab as much as they can so they can re-sell it at a premium and make a killing.
#16
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
Exactly, Dave. It's a very plausible explanation for why people aren't recieving the aid they say they should have by now. Instead of wondering if the military's turning them into cyborg soldiers or the like
#17
Rob King
In a general way, I think I agree. But I'd like to think that the US Army would find a better way.
From an article forwarded through the newspaper list:
Again, I hate to generalize. There are gangs in the slums, and there are good people in the rich parts of town. But this division of aid among the 'classes' of Haiti is not going to end well. Such injustice will lead to violence, even if they weren't violent before.
Rob King
That has nothing to do with our military. They'd do that regardless of the avenue of distribution.[/QUOTE]We also have to understand that the people who may be recieving the aid offered by our army might not be people who need it. They might be working for a black market and sending employees to grab as much as they can so they can re-sell it at a premium and make a killing.
In a general way, I think I agree. But I'd like to think that the US Army would find a better way.
From an article forwarded through the newspaper list:
Fear of the Haitians has kept aid agencies from being more effective. The armed forces are trying to keep agencies from going into the slums without armed escort. While that makes a lot of sense, the simple fact is that it's bogging down the relief effort. The UN is still trying to get it's feet back under itself in the wake of the earthquake, and the US Army is more concerned with 'securing' chunks of the city. The chunks of the city that they are securing, though, are the richer parts of town where the BMW-driving, drug-smuggling, aid-money-stealing wealthy Haitians and foreigners live.[Describing the American arrival in 1994]
It turned out to be a wave of slum dwellers streaming to
the air and sea port to greet the American guests. In
abundant conga lines they snaked through the city, tea
cosies on their heads to express just how happy they were.
Liberte! Merci Beel Cling Dong! they shouted. A terrified
American GI, still a teenager, saw the mass of pitiful
creatures approaching him, and asked me if the tea cosies
were some kinda voodoo?. He calmed down only when a line of
BMWs and Mitsubishis appeared and filed past to watch the
invasion.
Where the soldier came from, the owners of vehicles like
these are respectable citizens. In Haiti, they are likely
to be the ones smuggling drugs and making US aid dollars
disappear. The good guys in Haiti are the defenceless
people in the slums. For Western city dwellers, this is the
world turned upside down. Back! Back! the soldier shouted,
aiming his weapons at the good guys.
Again, I hate to generalize. There are gangs in the slums, and there are good people in the rich parts of town. But this division of aid among the 'classes' of Haiti is not going to end well. Such injustice will lead to violence, even if they weren't violent before.
#18
Rob King
Rob King
#19
@Li3n
@Li3n
It gives you the Voodoo powers research tree... RTFM nub.Honestly, Rob, I thought the same thing. I also thought the same thing others have mentioned--that the US is damned for not doing enough, and damned for doing too much. Still, the conspiracy theorist in me wonders what the strategic advantage of Haiti might be...
#20
Covar
Covar
I want to point out that the US Army is not in charge of the US situation down there, it's being handled by civilians.
This is why I think maybe we should just stay the hell out of these situations. The US is just trying to help and EVERY SINGLE TIME we get nothing but crap about how it's not enough, or somehow our fault that everything is not back to normal in 48 hours. Hell there is no benefit here to us, we might as well stay out of it, save millions of dollars that we can't afford to spend anyway, and just deal with the crap about how we're heartless bastards who don't want to help anyone.
If we're constantly going to get shitted on every time a country needs help we might as well just do what is most beneficial to us.
This is why I think maybe we should just stay the hell out of these situations. The US is just trying to help and EVERY SINGLE TIME we get nothing but crap about how it's not enough, or somehow our fault that everything is not back to normal in 48 hours. Hell there is no benefit here to us, we might as well stay out of it, save millions of dollars that we can't afford to spend anyway, and just deal with the crap about how we're heartless bastards who don't want to help anyone.
If we're constantly going to get shitted on every time a country needs help we might as well just do what is most beneficial to us.
#21
Rob King
To be clear: nobody expects the Americans, or anyone else, to drop in and fix the whole problem in two days. There are infrastructure problems in Haiti on the best of days. But given that history of US-Haitian relations, how could people not be worried about what this American aid means for the next few months and years?
Rob King
If this were true, nobody would be worried. But the US has had a history of meddling in Haitian affairs. Even if the rebellions in 1991 and 2004 can't be pinned on the US (something many do believe to be true), the story of US-Haitian affairs over the last century is one of influence, intervention, and downright occupation. And there is an enduring attitude which has reared it's head in the wake of this fresh disaster, and that attitude is that the US should take more direct control in Haiti because they simply aren't capable of taking care of themselves.I want to point out that the US Army is not in charge of the US situation down there, it's being handled by civilians.
This is why I think maybe we should just stay the hell out of these situations. The US is just trying to help and EVERY SINGLE TIME we get nothing but crap about how it's not enough, or somehow our fault that everything is not back to normal in 48 hours. Hell there is no benefit hear to us, we might as well stay out of it, save millions of dollars that we can't afford to spend anyway, and just deal with the crap about how we're heartless bastards who don't want to help anyone.
If we're constantly going to get shitted on every time a country needs help we might as well just do what is most beneficial to us.
To be clear: nobody expects the Americans, or anyone else, to drop in and fix the whole problem in two days. There are infrastructure problems in Haiti on the best of days. But given that history of US-Haitian relations, how could people not be worried about what this American aid means for the next few months and years?