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This American Life - Harper High School

#1

Dave

Dave


This one is a must listen. There are times when I and my kids think we have it tough. We don't. Absolutely captivating. I will be adding Part 2 when it comes out.

edit: Please note that when you open this, it takes the handshake between TAL and Halforums a few seconds and can look like it's hanging. This can be more pronounced on slower connections.


#2

Dave

Dave

Part 2. Jesus Christ.


edit: Please note that when you open this, it takes the handshake between TAL and Halforums a few seconds and can look like it's hanging. This can be more pronounced on slower connections.


#3

ElJuski

ElJuski

Yup. This episode gave me the chills, because on one hand, I deal with some of that stuff day-to-day, but on the other hand...these kids have it ten times worse than even my guys.

This shit is a must listen. Real talk.


#4

Espy

Espy

Oh man, I'm almost done with the second part.

It's incredible. What the hell America. Fix your shit. We spend so much money on so much crap that could be going to helping folks in schools and cities like this.


#5

Necronic

Necronic

That was a rough episode. We often put it in our heads how easy it would be to fix these problems, but....ffs what those kids have been through? I have no idea how you fix that. If I were to guess it wouldn't be fixed in the schools.


#6

Shakey

Shakey

Damn. The second part was tough to listen to. When the dad finds out what his dead sons name is being used for. The social worker, Crystal, who was so upbeat in the first part and almost sounds broken now by everything. I had to stop it at those parts and take a break. I can't even imagine growing up in that environment.


#7

Espy

Espy

Necronic said:
That was a rough episode. We often put it in our heads how easy it would be to fix these problems, but....ffs what those kids have been through? I have no idea how you fix that. If I were to guess it wouldn't be fixed in the schools.
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No, it's all community stuff. Schools are of course, a part of the community, but in the end it's about creating safer & communities with healthier people. I think even if tons of money and healthy adults in to the area it would still take many generations of working with folks to actually see results.


#8

Necronic

Necronic

So should the money go into the schools or into the police department or into...where should it go?


#9

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
So should the money go ... into the police department ?
Click to expand...


#10

Necronic

Necronic

Do you know what white priveledge is?


#11

Shakey

Shakey

One of the things they said was school is about the only safe place these kids could go to. One kid was saying he basically had to become a shut in to keep away from the gangs. Maybe community centers or places that kids can go to to hang out that are well staffed enough to make it safe for them. God knows how much that would cost though.


#12

Dave

Dave

Shakey said:
One of the things they said was school is about the only safe place these kids could go to. One kid was saying he basically had to become a shut in to keep away from the gangs. Maybe community centers or places that kids can go to to hang out that are well staffed enough to make it safe for them. God knows how much that would cost though.
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And the other kid can't hang out at home because his family doesn't trust him and think he (may have) shot his brother on purpose. So again, the school is the only place he could go. I can't even fathom what these kids have gone through. It just boggles my mind.


#13

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
Do you know what white priveledge is?
Click to expand...
yeah


#14

Necronic

Necronic

You have a white priveledge view of cops in this case. Those neighborhoods need more police. Even a community center won't work without them, because it will then matter which block the center is in, and the kids won't want to go there for fear of being shot.

White priveledge is thinking that cops would do more harm than good in this area, because you've never lived in an area where people are murdered in broad daylight on a daily basis.

But let's assume you're right. What would you spend money on there?


#15

Espy

Espy

Man, thats another hard part of the issue right? What will work? Obviously theres need in the schools. Theres need for safe places for people outside of schools. There's need for stronger, healthier more stable families so thats more community education, clearly the police have to be a part of this as well.


#16

ElJuski

ElJuski

It's a tough fix, but it is solvable. You make sure schools have more social workers. You make sure schools have smaller class sizes. You make sure there are community programs on the block that offer opportunities for these kids to stay off their block and invest themselves in better ways. You make sure there is a strong police presence, and you make sure that the people actually gang-banging get their asses hauled off the street and thrown into jail.


#17

strawman

strawman

White privilege is thinking that throwing money at the problem will make it go away.

:wololo:

I don't think we understand the current drivers of the problem enough to solve it easily. Catching the kids that actively engage in this gang warfare won't solve it, it'll just move it down the chain of command. Since it's cyclical, based largely on history and grudges, there's no easy way to resolve them in the minds of those angry about it. Chances are the parents, like the one at the end, are ignoring the problem, and can't do much more than that anyway since they're likely at work 40+ hours a week just making ends meet. Even if you could get rid of the grudges and history many have already been en-cultured into it so much that it would be difficult to get them to live any other way. It would take at least 8 years of constant counseling and vigilance to really be rid of it.

Moving them to different schools won't help, because it's based on their housing location.

I suppose razing the entire area to the ground might work, but this also isn't a problem that doesn't exist elsewhere, they'd merely end up in another gang in another place.

The school provides a safe haven, but it is not, and will not, solve the problem.

Outside forces can't change it. The individual families, parents, and others in the community need to take ownership of the problem, organize (ie, form their own gang) and self-police the entire area, 24/7. If it's done in the right spirit it might just work. Otherwise it might actually make things worse...


#18

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

A solution that would cost zero dollars would be to legalize drugs, release all prisoners incarcerated under the drug laws, and take all the freed up money from the prison system to go toward rehab clinics/social workers. That's not like. Exactly perfect, but I think it's better than putting more black men behind bars.


#19

ElJuski

ElJuski

Charlie Don't Surf said:
A solution that would cost zero dollars would be to legalize drugs, release all prisoners incarcerated under the drug laws, and take all the freed up money from the prison system to go toward rehab clinics/social workers. That's not like. Exactly perfect, but I think it's better than putting more black men behind bars.
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Wouldn't necessarily fix the rampant drug abuse problem with the kids, per se, but its a start.

And no, just throwing money at it won't fix it, but considering the type of underfunding we're dealing with, throwing some money at it might help.


#20

jwhouk

jwhouk

Charlie Don't Surf said:
A solution that would cost zero dollars would be to legalize drugs, release all prisoners incarcerated under the drug laws, and take all the freed up money from the prison system to go toward rehab clinics/social workers. That's not like. Exactly perfect, but I think it's better than putting more black men behind bars.
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And you'd be dead within 48 hours.


#21

Necronic

Necronic

Charlie Don't Surf said:
A solution that would cost zero dollars would be to legalize drugs, release all prisoners incarcerated under the drug laws, and take all the freed up money from the prison system to go toward rehab clinics/social workers. That's not like. Exactly perfect, but I think it's better than putting more black men behind bars.
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You know, I'm surprised I don't entirely disagree with you here. I think that what you're proposing could never get passed in a million years, but there are far more pallatable versions of it and it identifies a real problem:

1) Get rid of the stupid Zero Tolerance laws with mandatory sentences of 10+ years for class A drugs. There's already talk about this due to how much it's overcrowding the prisons.

2) The prison system itself needs a major overhaul. We have abandoned rehabilitation, prisons seem to exist purely for punitive reasons and this leads to incredibly high recidivism rates. If there is an alternate way of life for people when they get out of prison then they are less likely to go back to a life of crime.


#22

strawman

strawman

Necronic said:
We have abandoned rehabilitation, prisons seem to exist purely for punitive reasons and this leads to incredibly high recidivism rates. If there is an alternate way of life for people when they get out of prison then they are less likely to go back to a life of crime.
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I don't think that's true. For non violent first time offenses, especially for youth, sentences usually consist of community service, probation, and some amount of counseling/rehab/boot camp/etc. This is often true for the second offense as well, and if one has a decent lawyer can be true for the third and fourth offenses.

Prison is almost given for violent offenses (aggravated assault, robbery, etc) and for repeat offenders, but even in prison they are given the choice and opportunity to learn and change if they so desire. They are not, however, forced to do so - unfortunately rehabilitation doesn't work well if it's not a choice, and even if it did work under duress, "cruel and unusual punishment" has been used as an excuse to prevent the justice system from forcing rehabilitation.

I'm not saying the existing justice system is good and needs no change - far from it - however I don't think it's correct to say that we have no rehabilitation options, and that prison is only punitive in nature.


#23

Dave

Dave

stienman said:
I don't think that's true. For non violent first time offenses, especially for youth, sentences usually consist of community service, probation, and some amount of counseling/rehab/boot camp/etc. This is often true for the second offense as well, and if one has a decent lawyer can be true for the third and fourth offenses.

Prison is almost given for violent offenses (aggravated assault, robbery, etc) and for repeat offenders, but even in prison they are given the choice and opportunity to learn and change if they so desire. They are not, however, forced to do so - unfortunately rehabilitation doesn't work well if it's not a choice, and even if it did work under duress, "cruel and unusual punishment" has been used as an excuse to prevent the justice system from forcing rehabilitation.

I'm not saying the existing justice system is good and needs no change - far from it - however I don't think it's correct to say that we have no rehabilitation options, and that prison is only punitive in nature.
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This is not necessarily true if those arrested are black. There's a culture aspect where you have to be hard, you have to be tough. You could hear it in the program. In some cases, having been in jail is a status symbol.


#24

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

stienman said:
I don't think that's true. For non violent first time offenses, especially for youth, sentences usually consist of community service, probation, and some amount of counseling/rehab/boot camp/etc.
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Unless you're black. Or hispanic. Or poor. Or if your non violent crime was drugs.

But if you're white and affluent, sure.


#25

jwhouk

jwhouk

What we as a society need to ask ourselves about corrections is this:

1. What do you want to do with people who break the laws of the land, and
2. What are you willing to pay so it can be done?

Until then, you're going to have overcrowded prisons, overworked guards, and convicts who play the revolving door game.

And I'm not even bringing in the cultural aspect.


#26

Necronic

Necronic

No, what we need to ask is:

Is a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 years for any level of possesion of a "hard drug" a remotely acceptable sentence? This policy (and versions of it) accounts for a MASSIVE amount of our inmate population. What rehabilitative purpose does that even serve?


#27

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

If someone isn't a violent criminal when they're sent to prison for drugs, they will be when they come out.


#28

Espy

Espy

Regarding money:

In the last episode here they talk about the program to help the school that gave them 5 years of extra money, so they hired lots of folks and there was HUGE difference. Over the 5 years the money decreases and next year it's totally gone. Guess what happens then? Everyone is getting laid off and they will be down to, if I heard correctly, 1 (ONE!!!!!!), Part-time social worker!

Come on! So a part of the problem IS money. It's about a flow of cash that allows them to hire folks who can actually care about these kids. At least that seems to be a big part of the story here. Listen to Davonte (sp?) talk about how Crystal actually cares for him but that everyone else hates him and he wants to die? I'm just so heartbroken right now over this.


#29

Krisken

Krisken

What really bothered me was this isn't an isolated case in regards to these kids and their schools. The most horrifying was the number of deaths in the Miami Dade area. The number of student funerals that administrator had attended was simply horrifying.

What I also got out of it was removing the extended clips could help save lives because these kids are such terrible shots (as was mentioned in the piece).


#30

Necronic

Necronic

You should listen to the piece on Fresh Air about how easy it is to print high cap magazines with a 3d printer now.


#31

Dave

Dave

Necronic said:
You should listen to the piece on Fresh Air about how easy it is to print high cap magazines with a 3d printer now.
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Maybe that will be an issue in the future. Right now I doubt any of these folks would have access to a 3D printer.

Hell, I work at a university and *I* don't have access to a 3D printer!


#32

Necronic

Necronic

Yeah but you remember them saying that they had busted some college kid for selling guns to these neighborhoods. Point is that with that kind of demand I would not be surprised if some enterprising scumbag went out and started printing these things to sell down there.


#33

Dave

Dave

Again, maybe in a while, but not right now. Yes, they can be made now but not cheaply. The printers cost thousands of dollars and the materials cost a lot as well. Right now, a lot of these kids get their gun for free or really, really cheaply. This market couldn't compete.


#34

Shakey

Shakey

Necronic said:
Yeah but you remember them saying that they had busted some college kid for selling guns to these neighborhoods. Point is that with that kind of demand I would not be surprised if some enterprising scumbag went out and started printing these things to sell down there.
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You mean the kid that was buying guns in bulk at a gun show in another state and then carting them right over there to sell illegally? Yeah, it might help to close that gun show loophole too. Neither of those options will get rid of all the guns on the street, but it might help reduce the numbers. Maybe it'll even drive up the price so they can't afford them.


#35

ElJuski

ElJuski

Dave said:
This is not necessarily true if those arrested are black. There's a culture aspect where you have to be hard, you have to be tough. You could hear it in the program. In some cases, having been in jail is a status symbol.
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You mean inner-city, not black. It's a socio-economic problem, not a race problem.[DOUBLEPOST=1362261640][/DOUBLEPOST]
Espy said:
Regarding money:

In the last episode here they talk about the program to help the school that gave them 5 years of extra money, so they hired lots of folks and there was HUGE difference. Over the 5 years the money decreases and next year it's totally gone. Guess what happens then? Everyone is getting laid off and they will be down to, if I heard correctly, 1 (ONE!!!!!!), Part-time social worker!

Come on! So a part of the problem IS money. It's about a flow of cash that allows them to hire folks who can actually care about these kids. At least that seems to be a big part of the story here. Listen to Davonte (sp?) talk about how Crystal actually cares for him but that everyone else hates him and he wants to die? I'm just so heartbroken right now over this.
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It's completely a money issue. My school, for instance, is a lot better than these schools (because I work for a private school that specifically takes cases of LD or ED kids like Davonte out of the public school system and into a smaller, more intimate, therapeutic setting) but if there's anything our school lacks, it's funds. We don't have enough money to support the staff we need for the students, so we're constantly running thin. This means we can't operate as efficiently as we should be able to, so we lose kids from our roster. With less kids, we have less money, so more people don't come back...vicious cycle.

Not to mention, our school could use any number of things to incentivize and encourage our students, and help them learn with the tools that privileged schools on the other side of town get.

Not to mention that our entire staff is sorely underpaid for what they have to do on a day to day basis. When I started out as a TA on the ED side, I got paid 26k, which is jack shit in DC, especially when your day to day chores are to emotionally drain yourself with the emotional explosions and physically drain yourself with restraints. By the third time that you're teaching a kid how to shower after he's crapped himself in class, you begin to wonder what other jobs you can do and save yourself the burden of holding these kids back from the gang-bang shot-to-the-head precipice many of them are destined for anyway.


#36

Frank

Frank

Necronic said:
No, what we need to ask is:

Is a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 years for any level of possesion of a "hard drug" a remotely acceptable sentence? This policy (and versions of it) accounts for a MASSIVE amount of our inmate population. What rehabilitative purpose does that even serve?
Click to expand...
Fuck no. This is not something I should admit, but when I was a small town constable, I threw away enough evidence for the people I arrested for public drunkenness in the form of drugs that would net them ridiculous sentences when all they needed was some fucking help.


#37

Espy

Espy

Frank said:
Fuck no. This is not something I should admit, but when I was a small town constable, I threw away enough evidence for the people I arrested for public drunkenness in the form of drugs that would net them ridiculous sentences when all they needed was some fucking help.
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Sounds like you don't play by anyones rules but your own buddy.


#38

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Espy said:
Sounds like you don't play by anyones rules but your own buddy.
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He's a loose cannon, and his sergeant is getting too old for this shit.


#39

strawman

strawman

Turn in your gun and your badge.

In that order...


#40

Fun Size

Fun Size

Good lord. That was a rough listen.


#41

Krisken

Krisken

Cheer up by listening to this weeks. It's about coincidences, which absolutely rocks.


#42

ElJuski

ElJuski

And then remember Harper High School and find a way to help change education in America for the better (pretty please)


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