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Obama repeals limitations on international law-enforcement agency operating in the United States.

On Wednesday, however, for no apparent reason, President Obama issued an executive order removing the Reagan limitations. That is, Interpol's property and assets are no longer subject to search and confiscation, and its archives are now considered inviolable. This international police force (whose U.S. headquarters is in the Justice Department in Washington) will be unrestrained by the U.S. Constitution and American law while it operates in the United States and affects both Americans and American interests outside the United States.

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Oh, LOVELY. American sovereignty? Pfft! Cue the outrage from American media in...never.

Before anything else is said in this thread... do other nations where Interpol operates have to give up similar privileges? It's one thing if we're the only ones, but it's entirely another if everyone involved with them does.

Regardless, Interpol isn't going to have the muscle in the US to not cede to our demands if it ever becomes a conflict of interest. It's not like they can whisk somebody away like they could in Europe.

AshburnerX said:

Before anything else is said in this thread... do other nations where Interpol operates have to give up similar privileges? It's one thing if we're the only ones, but it's entirely another if everyone involved with them does.

Regardless, Interpol isn't going to have the muscle in the US to not cede to our demands if it ever becomes a conflict of interest. It's not like they can whisk somebody away like they could in Europe.

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So why repeal the limitations that have been in place for 26 years and five Presidents? As for whether or not other nations gave up their privileges, it doesn't matter. They do not have power over the US government as it relates to US law and interests. It was even stated in the link that joining the ICC is something that some in the administration would like to have happen. Since the main issue that has presented that is American sovereignty, this is a baby step towards surrendering that to a world body.

I'm really not read up on this. I'll do some research tomorrow. I'm sure not going to learn about it from NRO's opinion pages!

Krisken said:

I'm really not read up on this. I'll do some research tomorrow. I'm sure not going to learn about it from NRO's opinion pages!

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http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-amending-executive-order-12425

Here's the text of the executive order from the White House's website.

At least now we'll get some god damn help if these guys steal the Statue of Liberty again. Help us Zenigata!

That just repeals a part of a law that restricts Interpol's access in America. It does not say anything about giving them carte blanche to do what ever the hell they want. I'll have to see what that one sentence says.

Executive Order 12425 of June 16, 1983

International Criminal Police Organizations


By virtue of the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and statutes of the United States, including Section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act (59 Stat. 669, 22 U.S.C. 288), it is hereby ordered that the International Criminal Police Organization (INTERPOL), in which the United States participates pursuant to 22 U.S.C. 263a, is hereby designated as a public international organization entitled to enjoy the privileges, exemptions and immunities conferred by the International Organizations Immunities Act; except those provided by Section 2(c), the portions of Section 2(d) and Section 3 relating to customs duties and federal internal-revenue importation taxes, Section 4, Section 5, and Section 6 of that Act. This designation is not intended to abridge in any respect the privileges, exemptions or immunities which such organization may have acquired or may acquire by international agreement or by Congressional action.


Signature of Ronald Reagan
Ronald Reagan
The White House,
June 16, 1983.

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Looks like it is referring to a tax issue. So they may have to pay taxes on their offices now???

National Review.

So pfft.

It just looks like Interpol can no longer be forced to turn over evidence and materials to local and federal police agencies. It doesn't mean that their authority supersedes that of the US, only that we are giving them some of the rights that we afford embassys... rights which could be revoked if they abuse them.

Since Interpol has been a leader in fighting "The Global War on Terror" longer than we have, it may be good to have them on our side for a change.

Anyonelse missing Gasbandit around here these days?

DarkAudit said:

National Review.

So pfft.

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Messenger, message.

Armadillo;320316][quote=DarkAudit said:

National Review.

So pfft.

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Messenger, message.[/QUOTE]

Matters quite a bit.

sixpackshaker;320317][quote=Armadillo;320316][quote=DarkAudit said:

National Review.

So pfft.

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Messenger, message.[/QUOTE]

Matters quite a bit.[/QUOTE]

Not if you just dismiss something out of hand because of who reported it. This was an actual executive order; I linked to it from the White House website. Yes, the opinion piece at National Review had a slant to it, but that doesn't mean the actual matter at hand isn't important.

Armadillo;320334][quote=sixpackshaker;320317][quote=Armadillo;320316][quote=DarkAudit said:

National Review.

So pfft.

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Messenger, message.[/QUOTE]

Matters quite a bit.[/QUOTE]

Not if you just dismiss something out of hand because of who reported it. This was an actual executive order; I linked to it from the White House website. Yes, the opinion piece at National Review had a slant to it, but that doesn't mean the actual matter at hand isn't important.[/QUOTE]

Considering our former position was that we could take any information or evidence we wanted from Interpol on the basis that they were a private organization and not an International Coalition, I'm thinking that the original order was the over reaching one and that this one is a good will gesture meant to foster increased co-operation on the part of Interpol.

http://www.ipu.org/finance-e/PL79-291.pdf (text at bottom of post)

Section 2(c), 2(d) and 3. These are the parts that Ronald Reagan exempted Interpol from, and which Barack Obama un-exempted them from:

They always had power to operate in this country. They just have never had diplomatic immunity. That's been given/restored as per the original language of the act: Their property is sovereign and cannot be searched.

Whatever tax/customs that foreign governments normally operate under, interpol now operates under.

And they shall be free of customs and import duties when they come into the country and bring their families and stuff.

It doesn't look like the end of the us sovereignty to me.

(c) Property and assets of international organizations, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall be immune from search, unless such immunity be expressly waived, and from confiscation. The archives of international organizations shall be inviolable.

(d) Insofar as concerns customs duties and internal-revenue taxes imposed upon or by reason of importation, and the procedures in connection therewith; the registration of foreign agents; and the treatment of official communications, the privileges, exemptions, and immunities to which international organizations shall be entitled shall be those accorded under similar circumstances to foreign governments.

SEC. 3. Pursuant to regulations prescribed by the Commissioner of Customs with the approval of the Secretary of the Treasury, the baggage and effects of alien officers and employees of international organizations, or of aliens designated by foreign governments to serve as their representatives in or to such organizations, or of the families, suites, and servants of such officers, employees, or representatives shall be admitted (when imported in connection with the arrival of the owner) free of customs duties and free of internal-revenue taxes imposed upon or by reason of importation.

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An international law enforcement agency that operates within the borders of the United States is now not subject to Freedom of Information Act searches, investigation by Congress, or any other oversight by the duly elected government of the United States, representing its citizenry. If a citizen's Constitutional rights are violated by an FBI agent acting on behalf of INTERPOL, then tough titty, I guess. They can't be challenged, so what recourse would that person have? Are you telling me that al Qaeda terrorists arrested on the battlefield are to be afforded more Constitutional protection than a citizen of this country? Are you fucking SERIOUS?!?!? Foreign embassies don't have the whole law-enforcement community thing going on, so it's not a very apt comparison to make. There is now a lesser check on officers working with INTERPOL than there has been for 26 years.

This DOESN'T bother the other Americans in here? Because it sure as hell bothers me. The President of the United States is supposed to act in the best interests of the USA and its citizens, and I don't feel he is doing so.

The problem here is that the old conservative position on what's best for America is "tell everyone else to fuck off, we're going to do whatever we want." That approach is fucking stupid and is partly responsible for many global problems America faces these days. So seeing our President work to restore some good will overseas always gets a thumbs up from me.

So no, it doesn't bother me. This is a limited allowance of privileges restored to an international law enforcement agency. It will probably help Interpol's ability to aid in US national security and law enforcement. If, and this is a big if, these privileges were abused they can be revoked again. You are making far too big a deal out of this.

Armadillo said:

An international law enforcement agency that operates within the borders of the United States is now not subject to Freedom of Information Act searches, investigation by Congress, or any other oversight by the duly elected government of the United States, representing its citizenry. If a citizen's Constitutional rights are violated by an FBI agent acting on behalf of INTERPOL, then tough titty, I guess. They can't be challenged, so what recourse would that person have? Are you telling me that al Qaeda terrorists arrested on the battlefield are to be afforded more Constitutional protection than a citizen of this country? Are you fucking SERIOUS?!?!? Foreign embassies don't have the whole law-enforcement community thing going on, so it's not a very apt comparison to make. There is now a lesser check on officers working with INTERPOL than there has been for 26 years.

This DOESN'T bother the other Americans in here? Because it sure as hell bothers me. The President of the United States is supposed to act in the best interests of the USA and its citizens, and I don't feel he is doing so.

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Armadillo... considering the fact that we were able to take away their rights in the first place, it's highly unlikely that the Interpol is going to be running around, breaking down doors and abducting American Citizens like a bunch of jackbooted thugs. In fact, that sounds more like how our own government treats us, especially since the passing of the Patriot Act. Interpol knows they are in a precarious position and they also know that what we are giving them is a privilege... one that will be taken away from them the second they break our trust.

I honestly don't understand what the big deal is... Interpol has an excellent reputation, works in small groups, and rarely if ever resorts to an escalation of firepower like a SWAT Team. In fact, they usually ask for assistance from local police forces whenever they are about to make a bust, because they don't have the kind of funding to ship weapons and personal all over the world whenever they are closing in on someone.

But I'll humor you for a moment... lets say Interpol DOES overstep it's bounds and abducts an American citizen. What are they going to do then? They can't get them out of the country and they can't try them here. Even if they could get them out of the US, Interpol would be branded an illegal organization within the United States and they'd never be able to operate here ever again. Do you really think they'd risk losing access by pissing us off?

The problem is that now nothing they do can be challenged in an American court or investigated by Congress or subjected to a Freedom of Information Act search. Before, if someone did do something wrong, it could be. Transparency, openness, and so on. All things that the Patriot Act was (rightly) criticized for not having.

I don't trust anyone in any kind of power to just do the right thing out of the goodness of their heart. Sure, INTERPOL has a good reputation, but that doesn't mean we don't take precautions to insure against a rogue agent or something like that.

Baseline, we are a sovereign nation. INTERPOL is an international organization. When dealing with issues that occur on our soil, I believe our laws should apply before any international laws do, and that means the American legal system takes priority. The discovery process goes out the window with this order, and no good comes from that.

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A Troll said:

The problem here is that the old conservative position on what's best for America is "tell everyone else to fuck off, we're going to do whatever we want." That approach is fucking stupid and is partly responsible for many global problems America faces these days. So seeing our President work to restore some good will overseas always gets a thumbs up from me.

So no, it doesn't bother me. This is a limited allowance of privileges restored to an international law enforcement agency. It will probably help Interpol's ability to aid in US national security and law enforcement. If, and this is a big if, these privileges were abused they can be revoked again. You are making far too big a deal out of this.

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If "international goodwill" means we give up one iota of our sovereignty, then fuck it. Sorry, but I'm not willing to be subject in any way, shape, or form to international groups as an American citizen. That doesn't mean we get to run roughshod over any other countries, but it means we get to be the United States regardless of what anyone else thinks of us.

This is the same as when the FBI operates outside US territory - FBI personnel handle the evidence they gather and it's kept as FBI property. Now Interpol - an agency with basically the same Modus Operandi - has the same privilege when their cases take place in the US.

It's still a molehill.

Yeah man, Obama totally made Interpol your masters... now instead of your own people disappearing you it will be some foreigners...

Shegokigo said:

Anyonelse missing Gasbandit around here these days?

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nah

where's LaQuack when you need him.

Armadillo doesn't really know what he's talking about here anyway.

He says he is in a tizzy because now we can't make FOIA requests to Interpol?
You never COULD make FOIA requests to Interpol. The Freedom of Information Act only applies to US federal government agencies. Not foreign governments. Not private parties. Not even state agencies. US federal goverment agencies only.

So even before this executive order, Interpol was already free from having to respond to FOIA requests.

I love it when people get all self-righteously indignant over something that they don't know anything about.

It's Armadillo, Tin.

Also, I'd guess that the policies and legislation that created Interpol included oversight and accountability to the host nations. It seems totally odd that wouldn't be the case so I' gonna assume it is until shown otherwise.

my bad...fixed That's what I get for posting first thing in the AM

In order to maintain as politically neutral a role as possible, Interpol's constitution forbids its involvement in crimes that do not overlap several member countries,[3] or in any political, military, religious, or racial crimes.[4]

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http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/LegalMaterials/constitution/constitutionGenReg/constitution.asp

ANd from that site, we get this: "Action is taken within the limits of existing laws in different countries and in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."

And after a very brief read, it really looks to me like Interpol is more of a bureaucracy that helps police in one country work with those in another. EDIT: and to perform tasks such as intelligence analysis to avoid the duplication that would occur if every nation did it themselves.

So they are basically more like an International Detective Agency then a Police Agency.

Don't they teach people about interpol and other important organizations in school? I know I read about it in politics&history class back in middle/high...

Interpol isn't really on the radar screens of North Americans (well, Canada and the US; I can't speak for Latin America). Indeed, I'd hazard that the vast majority of the time we hear about them is in a movie set in Europe.

Gruebeard said:

Interpol isn't really on the radar screens of North Americans (well, Canada and the US; I can't speak for Latin America). Indeed, I'd hazard that the vast majority of the time we hear about them is in a movie set in Europe.

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Yup. I would wager most Americans have no clue what Interpol is or what it does. If they do, like Grue said they probably heard about it in a movie.

A Troll;320626][quote=Gruebeard said:

Interpol isn't really on the radar screens of North Americans (well, Canada and the US; I can't speak for Latin America). Indeed, I'd hazard that the vast majority of the time we hear about them is in a movie set in Europe.

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Yup. I would wager most Americans have no clue what Interpol is or what it does. If they do, like Grue said they probably heard about it in a movie.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and the less people know about something before the crazies spread their misinformation, the easier it is to mislead the following sheep.

Probable best-known Interpol agent in the USA:

Denbrought said:

Don't they teach people about interpol and other important organizations in school? I know I read about it in politics&history class back in middle/high...

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My knowledge of stereotypes says they don't teach americans anything in school...

Iaculus said:

Probable best-known Interpol agent in the USA:

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Except most people don't know she's an agent of Interpol. I'd say this guy is probably better example (at least if you watch Anime).

Armadillo said:

I believe our laws should apply before any international laws do, and that means the American legal system takes priority.

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Bull-fucking-shit. If you go by that logic, a nation could pass a law saying genocide is perfectly legal within its borders and therefore they can kill as many ethnic groups as they want with no reprisals from anyone. The United States has to play by the same rules the rest of the world does when it comes to international law and its enforcement, or not play at all. Kind of the whole point.

Armadillo said:

take precautions to insure against a rogue agent or something like that.

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Really? You think that is a likely outcome? An interpol agent is gonna lose his shit and just start arresting Americans and declaring their stuff evidence? You do realize that Interpol agents report to people, right? If an agent goes rogue and starts abusing his power, his ass will be on trial ASAP. Even if this executive order DID give Intperol carte blanche, it doesn't mean that Interpol doesn't have rules IT has to follow.

As an aside...all it took was an executive order to take away this "sovereignty encroachment" in the first place. If it does get abused, it is not exactly hard to to reissue.

Also:

In order to maintain as politically neutral a role as possible, Interpol's constitution forbids its involvement in crimes that do not overlap several member countries,[3] or in any political, military, religious, or racial crimes.[4]

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Oh noes! We actually have to grant the organization we signed on with the privileges it is meant to have! Say goodbye to freedom! *rolleyes*

Aren't Interpol offices staffed by national law enforcement (by the DoJ and FBI, in our case), who are covered by FoIA?

I understand Armadillo's concerns about a rogue agent/group who won't follow the rules, but if we're going to be questioning law enforcement agencies on that issue anyway, I would put the NYPD ($4 Bn budget) ahead of Interpol ($59 MM worldwide budget) on the list of agencies with the power to abuse who should be checked out.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

AshburnerX said:

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:thumb:

I don't think Chun-Li has ever arrested anyone on-screen. Beaten the shit out of, maybe, but actually arrested?

Zenigata has arrested whole criminal organizations en passant while chasing Lupin.

TeKeo said:

I understand Armadillo's concerns about a rogue agent/group who won't follow the rules, but if we're going to be questioning law enforcement agencies on that issue anyway, I would put the NYPD ($4 Bn budget) ahead of Interpol ($59 MM worldwide budget) on the list of agencies with the power to abuse who should be checked out.

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Nah, he's only concerned about foreign rogue agents/groups.

Charlie Dont Surf;320505][quote=Shegokigo said:

Anyonelse missing Gasbandit around here these days?

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nah[/QUOTE]

Whatever happened to GB, anyway?

He ran out of gas...

@Li3n said:

He ran out of gas...

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He should just swipe some more.

Armadillo;320334][quote=sixpackshaker;320317][quote=Armadillo;320316][quote=DarkAudit said:

National Review.

So pfft.

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Messenger, message.[/QUOTE]

Matters quite a bit.[/QUOTE]

Not if you just dismiss something out of hand because of who reported it. This was an actual executive order; I linked to it from the White House website. Yes, the opinion piece at National Review had a slant to it, but that doesn't mean the actual matter at hand isn't important.[/QUOTE]

There was no slant. It was an out right lie. Looks like 5 minutes of my investigating the issue showed that the Liar that wrote your article is the same Liar that he ALWAYS is. Messengers do matter. Trusting this source is like trusting a junkie not to buy heroin with the money he panhandles, even though he tells you it is to buy a bus ticket out of town.

From Iraq?

A quick note about Jurisdiction, for some who only know the term from movies.

Jurisdiction has three main levels of how it applies:

Personal: Jurisdiction over a person/people no matter where they are, usually used in military law or to apprehend fugitives who have committed a crime in another country (extradition being another, trickier matter)

Territorial: Legal command over a certain geographic area with usually strict boundaries. This means that the people in this area and any events that occur in it fall under the legal purview of the legal body(ies) granted authority over the aforementioned area. This is why a crime committed in, say, New York City can be prosecuted or pursued when the suspect/felon has left the original jurisdiction. Note that after crossing state or country borders, territorial will blur with personal in terms of how the process is negotiated.

Universal Jurisdiction: Universal is reserved for the highest level of criminal acts and or threats. Those who authorize/attempt/commit genocide, large scale human or drug trafficking, arms dealing and incredibly heinous crimes are considered under the jurisdiction of any country which apprehends them or gets them first. These individuals are usually tried in the Hague or World Court, since their crimes are on a level to effect multiple countries or people.


Interpol usually only acts on either a criminal dispute that involves three or more member countries (arms trafficking, drug trade, human trafficking, sometimes human smuggling). Even then INTERPOL is STILL bound by both their own laws as a technically neutral third party and the laws of the country in which they are seeking to obtain their suspect of felon. This means that an INTERPOL agent who apprehends a Columbian drug lord in America will have to A) Dispute proper jurisdiction with the nation's authorities (the FBI in this case and the US Attorney's Office) and abide by the nation's laws of detainment until the matter is settled.

Obama's doing plenty of other things wrong, and this is what people complain about?

A lot of countries are doubtless restricting interpol's access inside their nation with the excuse that if the US can't trust them, then they can't either.

By more fully supporting INTERPOL the US is sending a message that will hopefully serve the US more than it serves anyone else. Like any other treaty this is a political move meant to get some other party to give us something we want.

We don't know if Obama will get what he's asking for (or if he's asking for something worth what he's giving up) but it's simplistic to think that he's doing this blindly, or that it will result in harm coming to the citizens or constitution of the USA.

stienman said:

Obama's doing plenty of other things wrong, and this is what people complain about?

A lot of countries are doubtless restricting interpol's access inside their nation with the excuse that if the US can't trust them, then they can't either.

By more fully supporting INTERPOL the US is sending a message that will hopefully serve the US more than it serves anyone else. Like any other treaty this is a political move meant to get some other party to give us something we want..

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Pretty much THIS

Just thought this was funny.

The NRA, of all people, has reviewed the exec order about Interpol and concluded that it's nothing to worry about.

So has Fox's panel of experts.

You know the country has gone fucking insane when those two groups specifically pass up the chance to stoke the fires.

TeKeo said:

Just thought this was funny.

The NRA, of all people, has reviewed the exec order about Interpol and concluded that it's nothing to worry about.

So has Fox's panel of experts.

You know the country has gone fucking insane when those two groups specifically pass up the chance to stoke the fires.

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Shit. Now I'm worried.

Krisken;328101][QUOTE=TeKeo said:

Just thought this was funny.

The NRA, of all people, has reviewed the exec order about Interpol and concluded that it's nothing to worry about.

So has Fox's panel of experts.

You know the country has gone fucking insane when those two groups specifically pass up the chance to stoke the fires.

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Shit. Now I'm worried.[/QUOTE]


OMG, it's so obvious... those two are on the payroll of us socialist europeans to weaken your country (good ol' devide and conquer) so we can take over the world and give everyone universal health care... devious.

Anyone who resists us will find themselves on our Death Lists.

Which will be drawn up by Death Panels...

And old people will be forced to go on Carousel... where they will be reborn as fertilizer...

Socialism for teh Utopian Win

@Li3n said:

Which will be drawn up by Death Panels...

And old people will be forced to go on Carousel... where they will be reborn as fertilizer...

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I don't care so long as we keep receiving our shipment of Soylent Green.

Most I hear of Interpol is when they make another major bust all across Europe simultaneously, busting hundreds of people connected to child porn networks. I've yet to hear of Interpol ever actually interfering with any other law agency. They seem to be more like the glue that binds all of our agencies together on the larger scale, rather then going against other investigations/agencies.

Going on what's been posted in here, I can't really understand what the fuss is about.

Seraphyn said:

Going on what's been posted in here, I can't really understand what the fuss is about.

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Americans fear something based on misunderstanding it... the rest of us laugh at them...

The awesome keeps coming.

Chuck Norris claims the Interpol executive order is facilitating the creation of Obama's "secret vault".

Chuck Norris Facts: He is a complete fucking idiot

Seraphyn said:

Most I hear of Interpol is when they make another major bust all across Europe simultaneously, busting hundreds of people connected to child porn networks. I've yet to hear of Interpol ever actually interfering with any other law agency. They seem to be more like the glue that binds all of our agencies together on the larger scale, rather then going against other investigations/agencies.

Going on what's been posted in here, I can't really understand what the fuss is about.

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INTERPOL acts in a way to coordinate invigorations across multiple (three or more) member nations, and as a non-state bound organization, are exempt from the traditional territorial jurisdiction laws that apply to police and national security agencies. Mind you, exempt doesn't mean above. They still have to be respectful and deffer to state and local police, ect. They just act as a way for countries to grab people who may have fled to an extradition-weak place, ect.