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http://www.freep.com/article/20090729/N ... t-licensed

:blue:

This is the second story in the last 7 days or so about an unlicensed driver killing their own passengers. In both cases they have been cited multiple times, etc but they were never given a harsh enough punishment that made them think they should stop driving.

Why aren't repeat offenders jailed?

Idiots.

-Adam

Isn't the right to drive a car in the declaration of independence or something?

stienman said:

http://www.freep.com/article/20090729/NEWS01/90729022/Detroit-driver-in-deadly-Ohio-crash-wasn-t-licensed

:blue:

This is the second story in the last 7 days or so about an unlicensed driver killing their own passengers. In both cases they have been cited multiple times, etc but they were never given a harsh enough punishment that made them think they should stop driving.

Why aren't repeat offenders jailed?

Idiots.

-Adam

Click to expand...

I think they are after the second incident of driving without a license. In PA, the first time you get caught driving on a suspended license, whatever the suspension was is extended to a year AND you can serve up to 90 days in jail. The second time, you get a year in prison.

-- Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:33 pm --

figmentPez said:

Isn't the right to drive a car in the declaration of independence or something?

Click to expand...

I wish. The PA drivers manual goes on and on on how driving is a privilege and not a right.

good question. If you are not license to drive and you drove and get caught, you should go to jail.

I wish there was a way to incorporate driver's licenses into cars utilizing a bar code or the strip on the back of the licenses. Without it, the car simply wouldn't start. You lose your license, tough luck. Make people accountable instead of giving them a free pass.

KCWM said:

I wish there was a way to incorporate driver's licenses into cars utilizing a bar code or the strip on the back of the licenses. Without it, the car simply wouldn't start. You lose your license, tough luck. Make people accountable instead of giving them a free pass.

Click to expand...

true.. the "work around" would be borrow someone's else license. OF course this would mean the person lending it can lose his/her license also.

KCWM said:

I wish there was a way to incorporate driver's licenses into cars utilizing a bar code or the strip on the back of the licenses. Without it, the car simply wouldn't start. You lose your license, tough luck. Make people accountable instead of giving them a free pass.

Click to expand...

This is a great idea. Why don't we already have this?

in many states, driving infractions are a civil offense, which trigger no jail time.

In some states, however, driving infractions are a criminal offense, as here in Texas.

In Texas, for a first and second offense, you get fined, and the fine is potentially bigger for the second offense. For the third and subsequent offenses, you risk jail time in addition to a fine.

You can't just ask a general question like that. Driving is a privilege controlled by the state, and we have 50 of those, each with their own way of doing things.

When I worked for the prison system we had someone in there for DUI

The Messiah said:

KCWM said:

I wish there was a way to incorporate driver's licenses into cars utilizing a bar code or the strip on the back of the licenses. Without it, the car simply wouldn't start. You lose your license, tough luck. Make people accountable instead of giving them a free pass.

Click to expand...

This is a great idea. Why don't we already have this?

Click to expand...

The same reason all cars don't have breathalyzers or cameras that take a picture and make sure you're not a wanted criminal first.

I would actually go for something like this where instead of a key you used the license of the person. At least then the guy who hit me would have been harder pressed to drive or be up for a more serious offense like identity theft by deception.

Yeah, but then you have to give your personal privacy in order to do it, I wouldn't go for a system like that.

KCWM said:

I wish there was a way to incorporate driver's licenses into cars utilizing a bar code or the strip on the back of the licenses. Without it, the car simply wouldn't start. You lose your license, tough luck. Make people accountable instead of giving them a free pass.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but even if a system like that came into place right this moment for 2010 models, how are you going to enforce that for every car before 2009?

Chazwozel said:

KCWM said:

I wish there was a way to incorporate driver's licenses into cars utilizing a bar code or the strip on the back of the licenses. Without it, the car simply wouldn't start. You lose your license, tough luck. Make people accountable instead of giving them a free pass.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but even if a system like that came into place right this moment for 2010 models, how are you going to enforce that for every car before 2009?

Click to expand...

Wave a magic wand

So we never make any improvements because it won't affect older cars? No new emmisions standards or fuel efficiency? That argument is ludicrous.

Edrondol said:

So we never make any improvements because it won't affect older cars? No new emmisions standards or fuel efficiency? That argument is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

I think particular "improvement" could hurt sales of the car. I mean, if you are looking for a car, would you buy any 2010 model that has a built in breathalyzer and valid license swipe? and your only other option is buy 2009 or older which doesn't have that option?

Swiping your license to ensure it's valid every time you get in a car to drive. Ain't nothin that would go wrong with this plan.

Edrondol said:

So we never make any improvements because it won't affect older cars? No new emmisions standards or fuel efficiency? That argument is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

The only reason any car company would do this is if it were a law. It might be phased in in maybe 15 years or something, but it's still a dumb idea.

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Edrondol said:

So we never make any improvements because it won't affect older cars? No new emmisions standards or fuel efficiency? That argument is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

The only reason any car company would do this is if it were a law. It might be phased in in maybe 15 years or something, but it's still a dumb idea.

Click to expand...

I can see the benefits to a law like this but not the detrimental effects. Educate me. The only thing I've seen so far is a privacy thing, but this doesn't mean that there'd be tracking of the car/license and in fact could be used to help find criminals who commit identity theft or jut plain theft in general.

Edrondol said:

I can see the benefits to a law like this but not the detrimental effects. Educate me. The only thing I've seen so far is a privacy thing, but this doesn't mean that there'd be tracking of the car/license and in fact could be used to help find criminals who commit identity theft or jut plain theft in general.

Click to expand...

From that paragraph I interpret that you'd have this techpiece contact the police or proper authority if a flagged ID (a stolen one, manhunted, etc.) is used to activate the device (otherwise the "help find criminals" makes no sense). That's a big invasion of privacity in my book, because it either keeps an updated database of who's flagged OR it sends every swipe to a remote server. Either way it sounds too easy to abuse for monitoring purpouses by the government or whomever gets access to it.

The privacy issue, and I don't really think it would work enough to be worth the cost. It also seems like it would be a lot easier to hack or fake something electronic instead of a key too.

The issue with privacy is that in order to thwart hacking it has to contact a central authority or server of some sort.

This leads to obvious privacy implications as information about you, your location, and your car pass through the data center each time you drive. Even if it's guaranteed not recorded, I suspect a warrant could be issued to listen in on the data stream.

Chances are good, however, that once the system exists, the information will eventually be recorded.

Any other method leaves open the certainty of hacking.

-Adam

But they already have this information on most newer vehicles with OnStar and the electronic devices resident in the cars themselves. This would not be a huge leap. As long as this is used only if a crime has been commited I see no issues with it.

Edrondol said:

But they already have this information on most newer vehicles with OnStar and the electronic devices resident in the cars themselves. This would not be a huge leap. As long as this is used only if a crime has been commited I see no issues with it.

Click to expand...

Ah, but the government doesn't have that information - they have to pry it out of a company.

Furthermore, it's not mandatory, far from it - you have to pay to have these devices activated.

Those two distinctions bring a huge chasm between privacy issues of license controlled cars vs OnStar or LoJack.

-Adam

This is true. But inJanuary I'd have given my left nut to be able to find that Jeremy guy.

You could have a license keyed to a particular car or even a couple of cars. The data is stored only on the vehicle and not on any central server. You still need a license to drive, then. Take away the license and it is harder to do (still could, like borrow someone else's license...) I see no reason why it needs to be monitored by a central authority since it is basically a keycard swipe kind of system. Plenty of businesses (even small ones) do this without IDs going to an external central agent. It would just e a scaled down version of that.

MindDetective said:

You could have a license keyed to a particular car or even a couple of cars. The data is stored only on the vehicle and not on any central server. You still need a license to drive, then. Take away the license and it is harder to do (still could, like borrow someone else's license...) I see no reason why it needs to be monitored by a central authority since it is basically a keycard swipe kind of system. Plenty of businesses (even small ones) do this without IDs going to an external central agent. It would just e a scaled down version of that.

Click to expand...

I think the reason to have it "hook into central system" is to validate the license and keep track if your key is stolen or if the license is valid.

I mean if it is an internal system, then while the code is "valid" the actual license might not be since it was revoke this afternoon but the expiration date is like 3 years away.

How hard would it be if you were a criminal to jerry-rig a car, and have it just start normally, or you know buy one of the trillion cars made before this goes into effect, unless you want to make it a law that all cars have it, or you can't drive a car without it, good luck on both those.

This is like all the gun laws, they seem great, but there is black markets and ways to get around this. All this would stop is a bad driver from using a friends or families car with this equipped.

Chibibar said:

MindDetective said:

You could have a license keyed to a particular car or even a couple of cars. The data is stored only on the vehicle and not on any central server. You still need a license to drive, then. Take away the license and it is harder to do (still could, like borrow someone else's license...) I see no reason why it needs to be monitored by a central authority since it is basically a keycard swipe kind of system. Plenty of businesses (even small ones) do this without IDs going to an external central agent. It would just e a scaled down version of that.

Click to expand...

I think the reason to have it "hook into central system" is to validate the license and keep track if your key is stolen or if the license is valid.

I mean if it is an internal system, then while the code is "valid" the actual license might not be since it was revoke this afternoon but the expiration date is like 3 years away.

Click to expand...

Couple things to consider when revoking a license: You can physically take away the license. You can physically damage the license (punch a hole in the magnetic strip!) You can recode the license so it is flagged as a invalid. If all the car needs is a functioning, properly encoded license then there are lots of ways to take that privilege away without accessing a server.

As for tracking lost licenses, etc, that is another issue that has nothing to do with revoking. I would say you could password protect a license so that encoding it to work with a new car won't work. You can make the license useless as a key (although not as ID, but that's no different than now.) Basically, it is a different issue but even that may have solutions that don't require a server.

We really seem to be in the age of the internet these days when people immediately leap to thinking in terms of networks and information transfer.

CrimsonSoul said:

When I worked for the prison system we had someone in there for DUI

Click to expand...

Good. There's quite a lot of these idiots that deserve to be locked up for a good long time. They keep getting popped for DUI and suspended license, ple bargain it down, and go right on drinking and driving. Then they cross the median one night and wipe out a family, while they themselves walk away.

Dude here who killed 5 people in a crash had been popped for DUI no fewer than 7 times before. Now he's doing up to 56 years.

MindDetective said:

Chibibar said:

MindDetective said:

You could have a license keyed to a particular car or even a couple of cars. The data is stored only on the vehicle and not on any central server. You still need a license to drive, then. Take away the license and it is harder to do (still could, like borrow someone else's license...) I see no reason why it needs to be monitored by a central authority since it is basically a keycard swipe kind of system. Plenty of businesses (even small ones) do this without IDs going to an external central agent. It would just e a scaled down version of that.

Click to expand...

I think the reason to have it "hook into central system" is to validate the license and keep track if your key is stolen or if the license is valid.

I mean if it is an internal system, then while the code is "valid" the actual license might not be since it was revoke this afternoon but the expiration date is like 3 years away.

Click to expand...

Couple things to consider when revoking a license: You can physically take away the license. You can physically damage the license (punch a hole in the magnetic strip!) You can recode the license so it is flagged as a invalid. If all the car needs is a functioning, properly encoded license then there are lots of ways to take that privilege away without accessing a server.

As for tracking lost licenses, etc, that is another issue that has nothing to do with revoking. I would say you could password protect a license so that encoding it to work with a new car won't work. You can make the license useless as a key (although not as ID, but that's no different than now.) Basically, it is a different issue but even that may have solutions that don't require a server.

We really seem to be in the age of the internet these days when people immediately leap to thinking in terms of networks and information transfer.

Click to expand...

well.. also non-central server license can open to hackers.

What does it take to swipe/duplicate someone else magnetic strip. People can duplicate credit cards now and ATM I'm sure a license is not that much harder.

with your example above, by putting in the system, verifying the license is valid and the car starts taking it away would only mean someone will get an illegal "valid" license to continue driving since it doesn't check with a central system and if the person is careful driver, they may never get caught

Chibibar said:

MindDetective said:

Chibibar said:

MindDetective said:

You could have a license keyed to a particular car or even a couple of cars. The data is stored only on the vehicle and not on any central server. You still need a license to drive, then. Take away the license and it is harder to do (still could, like borrow someone else's license...) I see no reason why it needs to be monitored by a central authority since it is basically a keycard swipe kind of system. Plenty of businesses (even small ones) do this without IDs going to an external central agent. It would just e a scaled down version of that.

Click to expand...

I think the reason to have it "hook into central system" is to validate the license and keep track if your key is stolen or if the license is valid.

I mean if it is an internal system, then while the code is "valid" the actual license might not be since it was revoke this afternoon but the expiration date is like 3 years away.

Click to expand...

Couple things to consider when revoking a license: You can physically take away the license. You can physically damage the license (punch a hole in the magnetic strip!) You can recode the license so it is flagged as a invalid. If all the car needs is a functioning, properly encoded license then there are lots of ways to take that privilege away without accessing a server.

As for tracking lost licenses, etc, that is another issue that has nothing to do with revoking. I would say you could password protect a license so that encoding it to work with a new car won't work. You can make the license useless as a key (although not as ID, but that's no different than now.) Basically, it is a different issue but even that may have solutions that don't require a server.

We really seem to be in the age of the internet these days when people immediately leap to thinking in terms of networks and information transfer.

Click to expand...

well.. also non-central server license can open to hackers.

What does it take to swipe/duplicate someone else magnetic strip. People can duplicate credit cards now and ATM I'm sure a license is not that much harder.

with your example above, by putting in the system, verifying the license is valid and the car starts taking it away would only mean someone will get an illegal "valid" license to continue driving since it doesn't check with a central system and if the person is careful driver, they may never get caught

Click to expand...

There are ways around it with a server system too, like borrowing someone else's license. You can't have a perfectly controlled system. Start doing that and you start toward a police state. There is no utopia down that path.

I would rather have a world where we are not constantly monitored (by government or corporation!) with a few extra bad guys out there than the reverse. It simply does not seem like a worthwhile tradeoff to me.

Exactly, all this would do is stop Joe blow from driving if his license is lost or stolen, or if a criminal hijacks his license and outruns the cops (it happens) on some unknown drivers license so the next time he's starts his car he's arrested for the driving he didn't do. If it connects to a central server, as other people have said, what's to stop someone from intercepting the signal and getting the information needed off fo it, or a malicious employee "leaking" the information to the public. If it smells of fish I'm sure it's fishy.

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/51985977.html

Check out the last line in this story. This is why it keeps happening.

On today's local news:

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10810164

Police say Trisha Salcedo was driving with a suspended license when she crashed into the guardrail on the 46th Street North Bridge. The crash resulted in chunks of concrete falling to Highway 169, leaving another 65-year-old driver in critical condition.

Trisha Salcedo was not injured and she was not taken into custody. Police tell The News On 6 her license was suspended in July of 2007.

Tulsa Police say the investigation is ongoing. They say Salcedo hasn't been issued any citations

Click to expand...

I know several people who have been in accidents with people driving without insurance and a license and they are not taken into custody. I'm sure if it was me driving without a license I'd get the maximum penalty.

Oh hai, you don't have a license and caused an accident that put someone in critical condition... you're free to go

In her defense she's probably really really sorry :tumbleweed:

To be fair, re: the "it's easier to hack a,n electronic thing than to fake a real key"...There still hasn't been a successful, orking copy made of the Belgian identity card, using a chip, unless actually using someone else's chip (so, destroying one ID to make another - it's still useful, but not for this purpose).
And believe me, people *have* been trying - a Belgian ID counts as a passport for most of the EU and quite a few other countries, as a green card in all of the EU, and gives access to (emergency) health care. So, you know, it might be crackable, sure, but it's damn hard, too. And if you're dealing with those, well, they'll just rig their car.

Personally, I'm all in favour of a mandatory breathalizer and license check. Than again, I'm Flemish; we tend to be more willing to go a lot further into Big Brother land than most, for our security.

stienman said:

Why aren't rapists and child molesters locked up for all time?

Click to expand...

Now, that's a good question.

As for the drivers, getting caught is the difficult part. I've known far too many people with suspended licenses that drive around like it's no big thing. Most are DUI's/DWI's.

I think people think that driving is a right, not a privilege.

Edrondol said:

This is true. But inJanuary I'd have given my left nut to be able to find that Jeremy guy.

Click to expand...

Are you sure? And would you also have wanted a prosthetic to replace the missing one to retain the same look/feel?



If not, you could have the nickname Uno instead of Turbo...

-Adam

Steve said:

I know several people who have been in accidents with people driving without insurance and a license and they are not taken into custody. I'm sure if it was me driving without a license I'd get the maximum penalty.

Click to expand...

why do you say this?

Kissinger said:

Steve said:

I know several people who have been in accidents with people driving without insurance and a license and they are not taken into custody. I'm sure if it was me driving without a license I'd get the maximum penalty.

Click to expand...

why do you say this?

Click to expand...

Severe halitosis.

Shaken, not stirred.

As for the car starting, it wouldn't be that hard to do a lot of things to make cars safer.
-Make cars need a SIM to work. They already have OnStar/cell phones or BT to an existing cell phone. Give a limited number of 'cached' starts for when the network is unavailable.
-Blow-to-start cars are already being trialed for repeat DWI/DUI offenders.
-Fail your swipe/blow? Flash lights/horn for 1min, disable for 5min.
-Install GPS in cars or have them read RFID embedded in roadways, make them auto-ticket you for speeding or just have every car put its current speed in a huge LED display on the back.
-Govern all cars at 70MPH/120kmH (or whatever the highest speed limit is in your country/continent). If there isn't one, set one.
-Make every driver have to go through when they get/renew their license. Too many failures and no license for you until next week.

Sure, most of these could be easily subverted, but they're all relatively simple to implement.

--Patrick

stienman said:

Why aren't rapists and child molesters locked up for all time?

Click to expand...

In the same room?

Kissinger said:

Steve said:

I know several people who have been in accidents with people driving without insurance and a license and they are not taken into custody. I'm sure if it was me driving without a license I'd get the maximum penalty.

Click to expand...

why do you say this?

Click to expand...

Because of the dead hooker in my trunk. Cops can be dillweeds when it comes to shit like that. C'mon, officer, she's dead. Not like she needs to be riding shotgun.

Plus I actually have money. Not racially profiling here because poor is poor, it doesn't know skin color or nationality, but the people I work with who have any minor infraction (expired tag, not carrying insurance verification in the vehicle or forgetting the license) end up with the very least a ticket and trip to downtown courthouse but people who drive a 67 pickup (this is Oklahoma full of white trash rednecks) with no insurance, no license, an empty 12 pack in the back of the pickup bed, runs a red light, sideswipes my coworker on a Sunday morning, totals her vehicle, does not get arrested and no ticket issued then despite the fact that they have no license and insurance. I run a fucking YELLOW light, a YELLOW light and some copsuker pulls me over.

Steve said:

Kissinger said:

Steve said:

I know several people who have been in accidents with people driving without insurance and a license and they are not taken into custody. I'm sure if it was me driving without a license I'd get the maximum penalty.

Click to expand...

why do you say this?

Click to expand...

Because of the dead hooker in my trunk. Cops can be dillweeds when it comes to shit like that. C'mon, officer, she's dead. Not like she needs to be riding shotgun.

Plus I actually have money. Not racially profiling here because poor is poor, it doesn't know skin color or nationality, but the people I work with who have any minor infraction (expired tag, not carrying insurance verification in the vehicle or forgetting the license) end up with the very least a ticket and trip to downtown courthouse but people who drive a 67 pickup (this is Oklahoma full of white trash rednecks) with no insurance, no license, an empty 12 pack in the back of the pickup bed, runs a red light, sideswipes my coworker on a Sunday morning, totals her vehicle, does not get arrested and no ticket issued then despite the fact that they have no license and insurance. I run a fucking YELLOW light, a YELLOW light and some copsuker pulls me over.

Click to expand...

I'd really like to say you're wrong, but we both know you're not exaggerating by that much.

Edrondol said:

I'd really like to say you're wrong, but we both know you're not exaggerating by that much.

Click to expand...

He's not. I've been ticketed for running a yellow light. Suckage.

--Patrick

It's strange. In the UK if your license is suspended? You don't drive. Ok, a handful of people break the rules, but it is really only a minority. If you watch the British cop shows, Traffic Cop type things, they do occasionally pull over people with a suspended license, but not very often. But watching the US cop shows? All the time. Almost everyone they pull over in those shows has no valid license. I wonder why that is?

Is it editing, do they only show those people?
Do more of them get caught in the States?
Or is there actually a much higher percentage of suspended drivers who keep on driving anyway?

I'm curious.

I think it probably has to do with the perception that driving is a right and not a privilege. Americans have this, dont they (you)?

actually, it's more likely due to the fact that it's so much harder to get anything done in the US without a car. Our cities were built with car driving in mind.

Up until very recently, when a grocery store was built a scant mile and half from me, the closest grocer to me was 5 miles away. This is not because I chose to live in the boonies. This is just normal for much of the US. I dunno about you, but I don't really think milk would last very long walking 5 miles (over an hour) in 100 degree texas summer heat. If my license got suspended, I'm sure I'd continue to drive.

Tinwhistler said:

actually, it's more likely due to the fact that it's so much harder to get anything done in the US without a car. Our cities were built with car driving in mind.

Up until very recently, when a grocery store was built a scant mile and half from me, the closest grocer to me was 5 miles away. This is not because I chose to live in the boonies. This is just normal for much of the US. I dunno about you, but I don't really think milk would last very long walking 5 miles (over an hour) in 100 degree texas summer heat. If my license got suspended, I'm sure I'd continue to drive.

Click to expand...

Fair point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Although to me that would just make it all the more important to not get my license suspended.

Mr_Chaz said:

Fair point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Although to me that would just make it all the more important to not get my license suspended.

Click to expand...

Well, naturally.

Mr_Chaz said:

Tinwhistler said:

actually, it's more likely due to the fact that it's so much harder to get anything done in the US without a car. Our cities were built with car driving in mind.

Up until very recently, when a grocery store was built a scant mile and half from me, the closest grocer to me was 5 miles away. This is not because I chose to live in the boonies. This is just normal for much of the US. I dunno about you, but I don't really think milk would last very long walking 5 miles (over an hour) in 100 degree texas summer heat. If my license got suspended, I'm sure I'd continue to drive.

Click to expand...

Fair point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Although to me that would just make it all the more important to not get my license suspended.

Click to expand...

because in most non-top 10 cities, public transportation is crap. Even some of the top cities in the U.S. public transportation is crap. (that is a generalization, some is not bad. my wife still swore by LA's public transportation)

Chibibar said:

Mr_Chaz said:

Tinwhistler said:

actually, it's more likely due to the fact that it's so much harder to get anything done in the US without a car. Our cities were built with car driving in mind.

Up until very recently, when a grocery store was built a scant mile and half from me, the closest grocer to me was 5 miles away. This is not because I chose to live in the boonies. This is just normal for much of the US. I dunno about you, but I don't really think milk would last very long walking 5 miles (over an hour) in 100 degree texas summer heat. If my license got suspended, I'm sure I'd continue to drive.

Click to expand...

Fair point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Although to me that would just make it all the more important to not get my license suspended.

Click to expand...

because in most non-top 10 cities, public transportation is crap. Even some of the top cities in the U.S. public transportation is crap. (that is a generalization, some is not bad. my wife still swore by LA's public transportation)

Click to expand...

Well yeah, someone I know was banned from driving, and he started cycling 20 miles each way to get to work

Chibibar said:

because in most non-top 10 cities, public transportation is crap. Even some of the top cities in the U.S. public transportation is crap. (that is a generalization, some is not bad. my wife still swore by LA's public transportation)

Click to expand...

And that's long after GM paid off the powers that be in LA to scrap the streetcars in favor of GM's buses. :eyeroll:

DarkAudit said:

Chibibar said:

because in most non-top 10 cities, public transportation is crap. Even some of the top cities in the U.S. public transportation is crap. (that is a generalization, some is not bad. my wife still swore by LA's public transportation)

Click to expand...

And that's long after GM paid off the powers that be in LA to scrap the streetcars in favor of GM's buses. :eyeroll:

Click to expand...

That wasn't GM! That was Judge Doom after he bought the Red Car lines. Get your history straight.

Mr_Chaz said:

Chibibar said:

[quote="Mr_Chaz":1f54sxao]

Tinwhistler said:

actually, it's more likely due to the fact that it's so much harder to get anything done in the US without a car. Our cities were built with car driving in mind.

Up until very recently, when a grocery store was built a scant mile and half from me, the closest grocer to me was 5 miles away. This is not because I chose to live in the boonies. This is just normal for much of the US. I dunno about you, but I don't really think milk would last very long walking 5 miles (over an hour) in 100 degree texas summer heat. If my license got suspended, I'm sure I'd continue to drive.

Click to expand...

Fair point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Although to me that would just make it all the more important to not get my license suspended.

Click to expand...

because in most non-top 10 cities, public transportation is crap. Even some of the top cities in the U.S. public transportation is crap. (that is a generalization, some is not bad. my wife still swore by LA's public transportation)

Click to expand...

Well yeah, someone I know was banned from driving, and he started cycling 20 miles each way to get to work [/quote:1f54sxao]

I bet he is WAY healthier than I am because of it too.
I don't think I can survive 20 miles of cycling....... much less 5 miles

Edrondol said:

DarkAudit said:

Chibibar said:

because in most non-top 10 cities, public transportation is crap. Even some of the top cities in the U.S. public transportation is crap. (that is a generalization, some is not bad. my wife still swore by LA's public transportation)

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And that's long after GM paid off the powers that be in LA to scrap the streetcars in favor of GM's buses. :eyeroll:

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That wasn't GM! That was Judge Doom after he bought the Red Car lines. Get your history straight.

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Who do you think he was working for? :moon:

Kissinger said:

Swiping your license to ensure it's valid every time you get in a car to drive. Ain't nothin that would go wrong with this plan.

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Mr. Simpson, how do you respond to the charges that petty vandalism such as graffiti and people driving without a license are down eighty percent, while heavy sack-beatings and license theft are up a shocking nine hundred percent?

Homer: Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of all people know that.