#Israel #War #Gaza

[Necronic]

Read the most recent tweets.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/

Did they just declare war via Twitter? Ignoring the whole Israel V Palestine debate for a moment, wtf is going on in the world that a major militarized nation does this on Twitter. The security issues alone (like what would happen if someone hacked the IDF twitter account and started announcing other "make-believe" wars on twitter) are astounding.

Ed: More on it here

http://gizmodo.com/5960528/israel-announces-war-campaign-via-twitter

Ed2: It's a bit hard to follow because it looks like the IDF has been deleting a couple of the more "we're going to war" posts.

 

[Dave]

Weird. And stupid. I still think Isreal has a right to exist, but think what they are doing in Palestine is an abomination. Just because they are our friends doesn't mean that they can't do stupid and terrible things.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Israel is that buddy of yours that always has to start shit when you go out together. Dammit Israel, put your shirt back on, you're drunk.

 

[GasBandit]

I feel no sympathy for Hamas.

 

[blotsfan]

Israel needs to stop launching rockets into palestine and intentionally killing palestinian civilians while
using their own civilians as human shields.

Oh wait...

 

[North_Ranger]

Let's just agree that in this fight, both sides have been wallowing in shit since the 1930s.

 

[GasBandit]

Pretty sure there's a law somewhere that says this has to be posted once per israel thread, so let's go ahead and get that done - "The Difference."

 

[sixpackshaker]

Israel is white on the left side, and Hamas is white on the right side...[DOUBLEPOST=1352928270][/DOUBLEPOST]

 

[TommiR]

Did they just declare war via Twitter? Ignoring the whole Israel V Palestine debate for a moment, wtf is going on in the world that a major militarized nation does this on Twitter. The security issues alone (like what would happen if someone hacked the IDF twitter account and started announcing other "make-believe" wars on twitter) are astounding.

Don't worry, this isn't a 'DoW via Twitter'. Israel is engaged in an anti-terrorist operation in the Gaza strip against Hamas, just like it has several times before, and the tweets are a part of domestic propaganda and perception management.

I particularly like this one:

We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/268780918209118208

 

[AshburnerX]

I honestly would have said "Free party for senior Hamas members! All the Falafal you can eat! Make sure you wear your colors so the party patrol can find you!"

 

[JCM]

Its like watching two big jocks going at each other, no matter who wins, they're both assholes.

Yeah, one lives well while making millions of Palestinians live in a ghetto-like existence, frequently blowing up power lines and water pipes to punish them, and actually needs the terrorism to grab more land for the sake of "security" (a better example of Gasbandit's image would be the Israeli soldier with 2 cribs, one he stole from the Palestinian kid, while the kid lays on the floor, still being used as a human shield).

The other is an ignorant group that forgets that aside from a few hundred thousand original Palestinians, most were kicked out from their original countries and are actually refugees or children of refugees, and yet Israel is the only evil, not their original countries.

Sadly Israel, short-term, is doing what it must to get as much land as it can, as the situation makes it sensitive to get any world watchdog to stop them.
Palestine? Its basically using the fact that almost every Palestinian has a family member or loved one who was killed by an Israeli, use a Jihad to maintain control of the starving masses.

Long-term? They are both fucked the day 2-3 Islamic nations get nukes.

 

[AshburnerX]

Long-term? They are both fucked the day 2-3 Islamic nations get nukes.

... and that's when it becomes clear to the rest of the Arabs just how little they cared for the Palestinians.

 

[JCM]

... and that's when it becomes clear to the rest of the Arabs just how little they cared for the Palestinians.

I had been a Muslim for a good 10 years, before I saw that like every damn other religion, it was being used merely to manipulate others, at the cost of human suffering.

Sadly its a young religion, after the enlightenment phase (which saw the birth of Sufism, and the best medicine in its time) it entered its "KILL ALL INFIDELS/ENEMIES/WITCHES PHASE" that the Jews and Christians passed through centuries ago, expect at least a 100 years more of bloodshed before it loses its grip on the masses and they get out of the Arab Dark ages, to the "irrelevant but endlessly trying to butt into politics to force others to live their way" phase that most religions end up.

 

[Silent Bob]

Ahem, I would like to adopt my Philly dialect to express my feelings on the matter: Fuckem both. I used to care about Palestine and the situation in the Middle East. I really did. But I'm tired. I want the Middle East to just blow each other up so the rest of us can live in peace.

 

[Bubble181]

Eh, the sad thing, for me, is that this time around, there really is NO reason whatsoever.
The ONLY reason people are dying right now is because there's an election coming up in Israel. The hawks were falling in the polls, because, aside from Protect Us From the War, their politics and points make about as much sense as that of the Tea Party, so they decided to screw the slow-but-sure peace process that was going on to refocus Israeli politics on the War. Heaven forbid an election that's about education, labour costs, pension plans, the economy in general, state services,....They might lose.

That's not me being cynical - that's honestly exactly what's going on. Hamas' leaders don't need a lot to start shooting - they're constantly with their backs against the wall as it is, with their supporters thinking they're being weak and too slow and too political. Israel just needs to give a little shove, Hamas/PLO/Al Aqsa can choose to either fight, or lose all support. So they strike back - and Israel has all the excuse it needs to continue another cycle of war, which practically guarantees another hawk victory.

 

[TommiR]

Be that as it may, the situation as it was prior to the current Israeli offensive was intolerable by all western notions. Israel was taking, if not daily then at least weekly rocket fire from the Gaza strip into their civilian population centers. It is quite obvious that Hamas has either not the inclination or the capability to stop the attacks. What exactly would you have Israel do?

 

[Bubble181]

Be that as it may, the situation as it was prior to the current Israeli offensive was intolerable by all western notions. Israel was taking, if not daily then at least weekly rocket fire from the Gaza strip into their civilian population centers. It is quite obvious that Hamas has either not the inclination or the capability to stop the attacks. What exactly would you have Israel do?

You're right; the situation as it was prior to the current Palestinian offensive was intolerable by all Western notions. Palestinians were denied basic medical care and food; relief workers and international aid was being turned away weekly, if not daily, by occupying forces blocking all roads into the area. It is quite obvious that the Israeli government has either not the inclination or the capability to stop infants from dying daily. What exactly would you have Hamas do?


Eh, mind you, I'm not a big Palestinian fan - very far from it. The American (and Dutch, and British, and several other big countries) tradition of siding completely with Israel is just as ridiculously blind as the Belgian, French and Russian (and others) tradition of siding with Palestine in everything.
Both sides have done things that no self-respecting government or group should do. Peace treaties have been made and broken from both sides (with Rabin's murder as the sad highlight).
Claiming Israel "had to" invade and kill literally dozens of people in less than a week in retaliation for mortar and grenade attacks that killed less people than that in a year is pretty ridiculous. Just like it's nonsense that Hamas can't stop them if they really wanted to. Of course, Israel's been annexing so much land that there's hardly a square meter left in Palestinian land where you couldn't fire a rocket and hit Israel. But Israel's had to invade larger parts of Palestinian land to safeguard civilian centers. Which....etc etc.

There's no "good" side in this conflict, pure and simple. You can side with terrorists-slash-freedom-fighters or with oppressive-racist-dictatorship-slash-free-country-defending-its-civilians - you're still rooting for the wrong side either way.

 

[TommiR]

You're right; the situation as it was prior to the current Palestinian offensive was intolerable by all Western notions. Palestinians were denied basic medical care and food; relief workers and international aid was being turned away weekly, if not daily, by occupying forces blocking all roads into the area. It is quite obvious that the Israeli government has either not the inclination or the capability to stop infants from dying daily. What exactly would you have Hamas do?

I suppose it depends on your definitions. But Israel has allowed humanitarian goods to enter Gaza through checkpoints.

Eh, mind you, I'm not a big Palestinian fan - very far from it. The American (and Dutch, and British, and several other big countries) tradition of siding completely with Israel is just as ridiculously blind as the Belgian, French and Russian (and others) tradition of siding with Palestine in everything.
Both sides have done things that no self-respecting government or group should do. Peace treaties have been made and broken from both sides (with Rabin's murder as the sad highlight).

Funny you should bring up Rabin. An Israeli PM who offered the palestinians about 90% of what they wanted in the Oslo accords, only to be turned down by Arafat and have his successors deal with the 'Second Intifada'. See Barak. Shows the good faith of the palestinians.

Claiming Israel "had to" invade and kill literally dozens of people in less than a week in retaliation for mortar and grenade attacks that killed less people than that in a year is pretty ridiculous. Just like it's nonsense that Hamas can't stop them if they really wanted to. Of course, Israel's been annexing so much land that there's hardly a square meter left in Palestinian land where you couldn't fire a rocket and hit Israel. But Israel's had to invade larger parts of Palestinian land to safeguard civilian centers. Which....etc etc.

Targetting palestinian militants in exchange for them targetting Israeli civilians is a different matter. Combatants are legal targets (with an acceptable degree of collateral damage), but Hamas targeted civilians from the get-go. I'm sure you see the difference.

 

[blotsfan]

Both sides have done things that no self-respecting government or group should do. Peace treaties have been made and broken from both sides (with Rabin's murder as the sad highlight).

As much stuff as the palestinians have done, they weren't responsible for killing Rabin. That was a radical Jew who didn't want to give the Palestinians anything.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I admittedly do not understand much about all the nuances of this conflict or really have a side on this BUT I think it's a kind of important distinction that Hamas "rockets" are homemade, without any real destructive power, and never really hit or threaten anyone accurately by any stretch.

And Israel strikes blow up whole blocks and buildings and dozens of people.

 

[Azurephoenix]

I admittedly do not understand much about all the nuances of this conflict or really have a side on this BUT I think it's a kind of important distinction that Hamas "rockets" are homemade, without any real destructive power, and never really hit or threaten anyone accurately by any stretch.

And Israel strikes blow up whole blocks and buildings and dozens of people.

Homemade does not mean not destructive. They do however lack guidance systems so they are pretty much dumbfire weapons. This does not mean one should underestimate the destructive capability of these weapons (on the flip side it would be very hard to effectively deploy such weapons against Israel).

 

[sixpackshaker]

The vast majority of the rockets used are Russian designed Kaytushas that are built in Iran and smuggled in through Egypt.

Kaytushas are one of the big reasons that the Soviets defeated the Nazis. They are quite deadly. Israel has a good warning and defense systems to cut down on civilian casualties. What casualties they do have they don't advertise on CNN for all the world to see, and to help Hamas aim more accurately.

 

[Eriol]

Also remember two things about this conflict and the situation in Gaza:

1. If you say that Israel is denying them power, medical supplies, etc (they're actually the only ones providing them in the first place, but hey), then what is Egypt denying them? Pretty much exactly the same things. Egypt has its own border with Gaza, so any and all of that could be provided by them. So any "blame" on Israel goes exactly as much to Egypt as well.
2. If Hamas/Palestine/Gaza/all the people in those territories put down all its weapons and said it would never invade Israel ever, there would be peace. Some type of negotiation would occur, and there would be a Palestinian state in the relatively near term. If Israel put down all its weapons and vowed non-violence forever, they would be invaded (from all sides, not just Palestinians), and all the "Jews" killed. And a lot of other people too.

#2 is why I'll never be on the "oppressed" side here until it changes. Make no mistake, officially it's "Israel" but in virtually every interview that's not "official communication" it's about killing the Jews. Not Israel, the Jews. They could have done NOTHING except put up a big wall and not provided anything, never gone in to those areas, or controlled the borders therein, never bombed ANYTHING and do nothing except sit there and exist and the situation would be virtually the same as it is today (you know, like before 1967-ish when those areas were conquered, and they were still attacked more than once after that). The people there would want to kill all the Jews on "their" land. And then be OK killing them all wherever else too.

And no, I'm not Jewish either. Hell, I have mostly Germanic descent! (with a lot of Danish thrown in too)

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

1. If Hamas/Palestine/Gaza/all the people in those territories put down all its weapons and said it would never invade Israel ever, there would be peace.

Hamas actually tried this once in 2008, even stopping rocket attacks from groups not associated with them and it lasted a few months before Israel leveled a building and killed 19 Palestinians.

 

[JCM]

You're right; the situation as it was prior to the current Palestinian offensive was intolerable by all Western notions. Palestinians were denied basic medical care and food; relief workers and international aid was being turned away weekly, if not daily, by occupying forces blocking all roads into the area. It is quite obvious that the Israeli government has either not the inclination or the capability to stop infants from dying daily. What exactly would you have Hamas do?

Bingo.

Anyone who actually thinks Israel is in any way morally better than the Palestinians, deserves to have an army constantly destroying their city's powerlines, clisong off schools, destroying roads, building roadblocks and confiscating medicine, basically making their lives a living hell. Then I'd love to see if they wouldn't fight back.

Not that the Palestinians are any better, being nothing more than pawns of Arab states wanting to destabilize the region, but its funny how the Jews, after suffering in concentration camps, force others to live in almost similar conditions.[DOUBLEPOST=1353365372][/DOUBLEPOST]

Hamas actually tried this once in 2008, even stopping rocket attacks from groups not associated with them and it lasted a few months before Israel leveled a building and killed 19 Palestinians.

Again, bingo.


Like I said, Israel needs the conflict to keep grabbing land.

 

[Eriol]

Hamas actually tried this once in 2008, even stopping rocket attacks from groups not associated with them and it lasted a few months before Israel leveled a building and killed 19 Palestinians.

It's in Hamas' constitution for the destruction of Israel. If they were serious about it, it would have been changed first. Not "we'll stop killing you. Really. *wink*wink*" If they make a public declaration of non-violence without the change to their own constitution, I see it as a "pause to re-arm" and that's all. If they change their charter, then I might start believing it.

And as Gas posted above with the image, Hamas & company put as many civilians around their leaders as possible so there's as much collateral damage as possible. They literally use their own children as human shields. It's tragic when they die alongside the leaders, but I find it hard to blame Israel for the deaths.[DOUBLEPOST=1353366075][/DOUBLEPOST]

but its funny how the Jews, after suffering in concentration camps, force others to live in almost similar conditions.

This shows how you've obviously never read any books about the conditions in concentration camps. The only thing I've ever read that has been even close to equivalent was the conditions the Empire of Japan held various people in over their tenure. Even the Gulags (most of them at least) didn't compare.

 

[GasBandit]

The palestinians were given the opportunity to basically have everything they asked for and Arafat walked away from the table because it would take away his excuse to kill Jews. Sorry. It's just flat out plain that the only way there will be lasting peace there is either when Israel is annihilated, or the Palestinians are absorbed into the neighboring nations as they should have been decades ago. Or, you know, annihilated. I think the 2nd outcome is probably the least awful, but if you think the arab world, and especially the palestinians, will settle for anything other than the first unless the 3rd comes to pass is fooling themselves.

 

[North_Ranger]

Great, ran into the Godwin. Color me surprised.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Great, ran into the Godwin. Color me surprised.

 

[JCM]

The palestinians were given the opportunity to basically have everything they asked for and Arafat walked away from the table because it would take away his excuse to kill Jews. Sorry. It's just flat out plain that the only way there will be lasting peace there is either when Israel is annihilated, or the Palestinians are absorbed into the neighboring nations as they should have been decades ago. Or, you know, annihilated. I think the 2nd outcome is probably the least awful, but if you think the arab world, and especially the palestinians, will settle for anything other than the first unless the 3rd comes to pass is fooling themselves.

Yeah, imagine if the US takes away 60% of Canadian soil, offers back less than 5% back, of course its the fault of the Canadians for walking away. Arafat went there knowing that if he accepted anything but the UN planned borders, he'd be killed. Literally.

Gas, most Palestinians live in slum-like living standards, with some relative dead shot by an Isreali and jihadi propaganda all day long telling them its EXCLUSIVELY fault of the Isrealis. If you were born there, you'd be screaming JIHAAAAD louder than most, and would be the one offering to kill Arafat.

Also remember two things about this conflict and the situation in Gaza:

1. If you say that Israel is denying them power, medical supplies, etc (they're actually the only ones providing them in the first place, but hey), then what is Egypt denying them? Pretty much exactly the same things. Egypt has its own border with Gaza, so any and all of that could be provided by them. So any "blame" on Israel goes exactly as much to Egypt as well.

1. 
   
   Where have you been after the Kissinger years? Egypt is an Israeli ally, while pretending not to like it.
   
   Egypt lost in a war against Isreal. It does not want to start another, my siggestion is to read Kissinger's biography, which details every damn diplomatic move that led to this.

Anyway, like I said, the day some Islamic nation gets a nuke, Palestine will get blown up along with part of Isreal. Just do like me, avoid travelling to that part of the world and enjoy the fireworks of failed politics.

 

[bhamv3]

Israel's got nukes, right?

 

[strawman]

Like I said, Israel needs the conflict to keep grabbing land.

How accurate is that map? I see it's widely spread among anti-israeli sites, but I don't see a single use of it on what I would consider a reputable site.

Even wikipedia suggests the west bank is larger than the 2005 image depicted here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories

 

[JCM]

My apologies for that, just google imaged "post-67 Isreal borders", but even then with that map one can see the land grab.
But then if I were surrounded by people who wanted to kill me, I'd want as much stolen land to put on the bargaining table as possible.[DOUBLEPOST=1353378463][/DOUBLEPOST]But then zooming out your map, its pretty much like the one I posted, with just a little more green >_>

 

[strawman]

Well I certainly don't understand anything significant about the region, so I really can't say anyway. I know a few people who have studied the history thoroughly who say there really is no way to call it cleanly for either side. Eventually they will have to agree with each other, and stick to the agreement, or forever disagree. No outside force has ever been, or will likely ever be, able to make them both happy enough to do so themselves.

 

[JCM]

And as Gas posted above with the image, Hamas & company put as many civilians around their leaders as possible so there's as much collateral damage as possible. They literally use their own children as human shields..

And Israel shoots down roads, stops human relief and takes out power around hospitals.

Cry me a river, Isreal is just as bad on the kids department, and do not oworry, there is another brainwashed equivalent of you on the Eatern side saying "I can't blame Hamas for their death"

This shows how you've obviously never read any books about the conditions in concentration camps. The only thing I've ever read that has been even close to equivalent was the conditions the Empire of Japan held various people in over their tenure. Even the Gulags (most of them at least) didn't compare.

Really, is your knowledge of concentration camps limited to only Gulags and Nazis? Heck even the US, South Africa, etc had concentration camps under many names, here, let me help-

"The Random House Dictionary defines the term "concentration camp" as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc."

That's pretty much what Gaza is. And it shows you really do not read any first-hand accounts of life in Isreal, or know anything beyond what American media feeds you, or even met talked to any Palestinian... Compared to the first-world luxurious life most Isrealis have, guess you're fine with kids not having access to basic human rights or liberty to move about their own country, or having weapons pointed at them daily and having to sleep with random shots outside on the street.

There is a bigger chance of you dying from your chair breaking, than there is of an Isreali dying from a Palestinian attack. More than a hundred Palestinians die for every Isreali wounded, heck, more Palestinians die daily because of uninformed people like you supporting your government's Isreali policy than Isrealis die in this damn conflict. And just like Israel capitalizes on your opinions being formed by your media, the Palestinians are even worse off, being brainwashed by Arab media, which are basically the Arab version of Fox news, but with worse religious bigotry.