Regarding the Fix thing... I think he might very well blame Harry for this. I think Butcher kinda set it up for that (although he has surprised us before). The problem is that Dresden with full preparation, tools and determination to do so would turn Fix into a stain on the pavement. I figure Harry's gonna have the first two of those by the next book, but Fix will slowly turn more and more a nuisance or "evil" (bitter, distraught) that Harry will eventually also get the third one.
[Books] New Dresden Novel drops November 27! (Now with SPOILERS!!)
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Just reread the ending of Summer Knight
It's actually Lily who says that the power of the Lady would usually flow to the nearest summer queen but since she had the powers of the summer knight it flowed into her. Very explicit black and white she said it I can type up the exact quote if you would like.
I can accept maybe the power of the Summer Lady would flow into Saccrissa because of the fact that Fix is male and the circle cut it off but Mab was right there in the circle and Maeve's reasoning behind why nobody would kill her is complete bunk robbing the final showdown of any real weight despite the fact that we have Mab being forced to kill her daughter.
I can accept maybe the power of the Summer Lady would flow into Saccrissa because of the fact that Fix is male and the circle cut it off but Mab was right there in the circle and Maeve's reasoning behind why nobody would kill her is complete bunk robbing the final showdown of any real weight despite the fact that we have Mab being forced to kill her daughter.
You are assuming that Lily knows what she is talking about as well. It has been *well* established already that she's not very smart, and that Titania didn't teach her shit, only Maeve did. Maeve could have already been tainted by that point, and it's to her advantage to keep Lily ignorant.
Even Bob gets things wrong once and a while, and he's basically just a giant collection of knowledge.
Even Bob gets things wrong once and a while, and he's basically just a giant collection of knowledge.
Yeah, what the hell does Lily know. Besides Mab is Mab, as in THE Mab, I'm sure that when it comes to the protocols of Winter mantle passing she's several steps ahead of Lily, Harry and even Maeve. I don't see why it's hard to believe she could even "nudge" the mantle on a direction she prefers. And, again, everyone that gets it is de facto approved by her. Cause if someone she didn't want to get the mantle got it, she'd just squeeze her like a bug and explode her till someone did.
Make no mistake, there was nothing random about what happened on that mountaintop.
Make no mistake, there was nothing random about what happened on that mountaintop.
Keep in mind as well that Maeve was taunting Mab with the fact that her chosen vessel was now *gone* and "Haha Mom, now you have no plans on who to give the mantle to and you can't let it be idle," not realizing that Mab had plans within plans. Even if you go on the assumption that Maeve's mantle would just go to Mab, it would have to be replaced ASAP, the power vacuum CANNOT EXIST or everyone is fucked. So she basically taunted Mab with the idea that she had no other person who was prepared to take it (incorrectly). Remember, Lily getting the Summer Mantle was a HUGE fuckup, which happened because Titania did not see it coming and did not have an alternative on hand anyways. Mab *knew* Maeve was tainted, Maeve *knew* she was preparing her replacement and acted, but Maeve was too short sighted to realize that Mab also had her lieutenant training someone. She was most likely training Molly to replace Lily, but the point is SHE HAD A BACKUP.
Except Bob only gets stuff wrong when he has incomplete information and being pressed to make a guess and he always makes it a point to say that it is his best guess. Lily the Summer Lady who is incapable of lying says
"I know. I didn't want it, but when-when Aurora died, her power flowed into the nearest Summer vessel. Usually it would be one of the other Queens but I had the Knight's power and it just sort of... plopped in there."
There is no real wiggle room here the finale doesn't mix with the previous canon. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that Butcher made a mistake.
"I know. I didn't want it, but when-when Aurora died, her power flowed into the nearest Summer vessel. Usually it would be one of the other Queens but I had the Knight's power and it just sort of... plopped in there."
There is no real wiggle room here the finale doesn't mix with the previous canon. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that Butcher made a mistake.
Actually it can exist. During the conversation Mab says to Maeve that she has not been doing her duty. So we know that the world won't come to a crashing halt if the Winter Lady stops fulfilling her duty because Maeve wasn't doing the duties of the winter lady.
And Rashid actually said that a handover of power most years wouldn't be a problem at all but with the increase in the outsider's aggression and Maeve's attitude it would be a huge problem. Not that it was impossible.
And of course it seems to me that most of the duties of the Queens is done pretty much automatically by the mantle. IE the huge war that was going on without Mab needing to oversee it personally every second. No reason to believe that everything would fall apart the second somebody inexperienced gained the mantle. After all Mab at some point gained the mantle without the universe crumbling.
And Rashid actually said that a handover of power most years wouldn't be a problem at all but with the increase in the outsider's aggression and Maeve's attitude it would be a huge problem. Not that it was impossible.
And of course it seems to me that most of the duties of the Queens is done pretty much automatically by the mantle. IE the huge war that was going on without Mab needing to oversee it personally every second. No reason to believe that everything would fall apart the second somebody inexperienced gained the mantle. After all Mab at some point gained the mantle without the universe crumbling.
Stop. SHE IS INCAPABLE OF SAYING SOMETHING SHE BELIEVES TO BE A LIE. That is not the same as only being able to tell the absolute 100% truth even if she doesn't know the answer. I *hate* when people even try to use that argument.
Do you realize how much shit started falling apart just by *Lily* getting the Summer lady mantle? Did you even read into all of that nonsense? Lily was inexperienced and lonely (and stupid)enough to be swayed by the first member of the court to show even a hint of niceness to her. Titania was completely wrapped up in her grief and Maeve was able to twitch Lily around like a puppet. And Summer is only there to keep Winter from doing dumbass shit to mortals. For fuck's sake, if the wrong person got the mantle of WINTER LADY, who at least has some responsibility to PROTECT EXISTENCE FROM THE OUTSIDERS, it would be REALLY BAD. Maeve was influenced by the Outsiders and was fucking things up left and right on purpose, and we probably have yet to see all the shit that Mab was not able to cover for. Molly at least has a grounding in the way the Fairy Courts work, she has the right magical strengths to be able to understand her power, and will most likely be able to have a reasonable enough grasp to figure out WTF is going on before end game. Tempus Fugit as Nicodemus likes to say.
Also keep in mind that the Fairy mantles do weird ass shit to you. Harry can only barely keep the mantle of the Knight in check and he has years of mental training. Bob said as much as well. You can see at the end of the book that Lily gets so absorbed in the emotional nature of the Summer Mantle, and that she has a ridiculously hard time keeping it in check, and she nearly kills Fix because of it.
Mab is already doing a shit load to cover up Maeve's lack of working. This is evident by the way that she blatantly ignored the Red Court trespassing in her territory. It was clearly Maeve massing troops on Summer's border to keep them busy while Mab was distracted with something, most likely Outsiders or Denarians acting in concert with them to attack Arctis Tor. (Which is also likely around the time Mab starting realizing that Maeve was messed up)
Rashid was specifically referring to Maeve ascending to Winter Queen, when she is insane and erratic. And just because Rashid only referred to it as a "huge problem" does not mean he isn't understating the issue.
Mab most likely gained the mantle at a time that Winter was not in the middle of the one of biggest push on the gates in recent history as well.
Except that she is directly answering a question as if she has direct knowledge of it. When she tried to do the exact same thing in Cold Days she had to say that she thought X or that she hadn't inspected Mab but Maeve had. There was no such statement there. She isn't guessing this is the way she understands it.
We've gone far afield here. Let's refocus. We know that there can be a slump in the fairy queens doing their duty without the wheels falling off the universe so there is no canon backing for your statement that such a power vacuum couldn't exist.
If even such a power vacuum would exist if the power were to flow from one member of the court into the next nearest member of the court. I believe that for the most part that the extra power in the hands of one of the other members of the court would do the duties on it's own until the bearer of the mantle can take a more active hand in it.
If even such a power vacuum would exist if the power were to flow from one member of the court into the next nearest member of the court. I believe that for the most part that the extra power in the hands of one of the other members of the court would do the duties on it's own until the bearer of the mantle can take a more active hand in it.
Good catch now that I think about it Mab does get super pissed just 2 books later which would be in line with he getting suspicious right around Proven Guilty. But still my point stands that there can be a drop in a Fairy Queen's activity such as her power residing in the one of the other members of the court without the wheels of the universe coming off while a new Lady, Queen or Mother is picked.
I mean if the queen can cover up for an actively dissenting Lady there is no reason why a Mother couldn't cover for an inactive queen or inactive Lady.
I mean if the queen can cover up for an actively dissenting Lady there is no reason why a Mother couldn't cover for an inactive queen or inactive Lady.
Rashid was specifically referring to Maeve ascending to Winter Queen, when she is insane and erratic. And just because Rashid only referred to it as a "huge problem" does not mean he isn't understating the issue.
Mab most likely gained the mantle at a time that Winter was not in the middle of the one of biggest push on the gates in recent history as well.
I don't think we at all disagree on this part. The situation is such that Mab being replaced would be pretty much the deathknell for the universe but that in other circumstances IE a Lady besides Maeve there would be no problem with the Winter Lady stepping up or the Winter Mother selecting a new Winter Queen.
EVERYTHING Lily knows about being a Fairy Queen she learned from Maeve. If you assume that Maeve has been able to lie since she was introduced (which is 100% possible) then Lily can easily lie her ass off without realizing she is lying. She does in fact say things that are lies such as calling the island evil, because she doesn't realize that she is wrong. Even if you just assume flat out stupidity... Lily could assume that the mantle passed to her because she was the nearest member of the Summer Court, and not just because she was the nearest compatible vessel. People speak assumptions as 100% truths all the time.
If you think about it, who else was there? A bunch of men. None of which are compatible. The only other women there couldn't get through the barrier or died trying.Again and again, the point is hammered home that Lily was the perfect textbook example of "Ditzy Blonde." There is no way she had any idea of the way things work in the Fairy Courts. But she would 100% believe anything told to her by Maeve. Therefore she could say everything she learned from her as 100% truth.
Be that as it may, Mab finally had to clear out Maeve because she COULD NO LONGER AFFORD TO HAVE THE POWER VACUUM. Again, End Game. I assume she put it off as long as possible because she didn't want her daughter to die. But that doesn't mean it was a good choice.
(EDIT: Made spoiler tag free for Calleja!)
We also don't know how Aurora got infected. If Maeve infected Aurora, then it makes perfect sense that she would immediately make a play to Lily. They were already pretty chummy by Proven Guilty after all. Titania was grieving, I can't imagine her conversation with Lily was terribly deep.
Butcher is a devious asshole and an avid role player, I 100% expect misdirection from him, and taking Lily's word for things when she was being lied to by Maeve the whole time is the best explanation for any perceived errors on how the courts work. All you really asked for was an excuse to cover up anything, but then you argue to the death that clearly it is just Butcher being wrong. So, at this point, take it how you want.
Butcher is a devious asshole and an avid role player, I 100% expect misdirection from him, and taking Lily's word for things when she was being lied to by Maeve the whole time is the best explanation for any perceived errors on how the courts work. All you really asked for was an excuse to cover up anything, but then you argue to the death that clearly it is just Butcher being wrong. So, at this point, take it how you want.
Well except that when she made that statement it was only a day since she had gained the powers which would probably be too quick for Maeve to do much disinformation. And even if she had why would Maeve lie about something so... minor? We do know that she had talked to Titania and probably asked her how the mantle came to her but that is me creating a conversation that is nowhere in the books.EVERYTHING Lily knows about being a Fairy Queen she learned from Maeve. If you assume that Maeve has been able to lie since she was introduced (which is 100% possible) then Lily can easily lie her ass off without realizing she is lying. She does in fact say things that are lies such as calling the island evil, because she doesn't realize that she is wrong. Even if you just assume flat out stupidity... Lily could assume that the mantle passed to her because she was the nearest member of the Summer Court, and not just because she was the nearest compatible vessel. People speak assumptions as 100% truths all the time.
Again and again, the point is hammered home that Lily was the perfect textbook example of "Ditzy Blonde." There is no way she had any idea of the way things work in the Fairy Courts. But she would 100% believe anything told to her by Maeve. Therefore she could say everything she learned from her as 100% truth.
Also where did this Lily is teh dumb thing come into the books? From what I remember we see her in
Summer Knight
Proven Guilty
and Cold Days.
In Summer Knight she gets just a bit of a mention in the last few pages. However in Proven Guilty she
1. Sees instantly how Harry used the rules to get around Titania's restriction against helping Harry
2. Tricked Harry into using Summer fire on Winter's wellspring
and
3. Effortlessly manuevered the White Council into looking favorably upon Harry without speaking a single untruth.
and in Cold Days suddenly she's presented as dumber than a sack of small potatos. I just don't get it. Fix was never presented as a dumbass and he was just as suckered by Maeve.
Well Mab had finally decided to act against Mab because all the pieces were in place and I have no problem with her having prepared Sachrissa and Molly as possible hosts for the Lady mantle. Hell I wouldn't even have any problem if Butcher says "Mab just put the power in Molly immediately"Be that as it may, Mab finally had to clear out Maeve because she COULD NO LONGER AFFORD TO HAVE THE POWER VACUUM. Again, End Game. I assume she put it off as long as possible because she didn't want her daughter to die. But that doesn't mean it was a good choice.
But like I said the entire drama of the situation with Meave going "Can't kill me without the power going to somebody you haven't vetted" was undercut by the fact that in no way was that the way the queen's power has worked previously.
It is mentioned in every single book that Lily was really stupid before she got the mantle. Just because she learned how to maneuver (in theory) does not mean that she isn't still just Maeve's puppet. Though considering that I'm pretty sure the whole debacle with the Fetches was Mab's doing in some form or another, I think she was a puppet on a lot of different strings and just didn't notice.
Also, misdirecting Harry about how the mantles transfer is not so minor if you think long game. If Harry thought that the power of the Lady would just flow back to Mab to reassign, then he could very well end up accidentally passing the mantle of the Winter Lady to someone wholly unsuited once Nemesis had gotten it's use out of Maeve, thus fucking up the Winter Court hard. Could you see if that mantle had gone to Murphy? Or Susan? Or any of the other random women that Harry might go after Maeve with? It's just another blind on Harry's judgement.
(Yes Susan is dead, we are discussing a Book 4 PoV here)
I reread Proven Guilty just recently and there was no mention in there that she was really stupid. And the actions with giving Harry summer flame so he would use it in the fight can easily be handwaved to Maeve suggestions but the second that Harry goes (Paraphrased) "I put Molly's life in danger so I owe you therefore I will give you the favor these two owe me to you" Lily catches on.It is mentioned in every single book that Lily was really stupid before she got the mantle. Just because she learned how to maneuver (in theory) does not mean that she isn't still just Maeve's puppet. Though considering that I'm pretty sure the whole debacle with the Fetches was Mab's doing in some form or another, I think she was a puppet on a lot of different strings and just didn't notice.
And Lily was able to work in so much deft political maneuvering in Proven guilty that it really doesn't fit with her actions for her to be the textbook ditzy blond.[DOUBLEPOST=1354656667][/DOUBLEPOST]
Except this really only strengthens my statement that Butcher probably made a mistake here because Harry is immediately like "OMG Yes that is completely how I have always understood the succession of the Fairy court." Not at all like Dubyamn who when he read that was "That is definately not the way I remember the fairy court succession working. But okay I'll roll with it to see where he's going"
And even then it's not as though Maeve or Nemisis would have any way of insuring that Harry would hear about that being the way that the mantle passes on and it is a huge risk since if any of the other queens hear it Maeve is immidiately exposed as being able to lie.
Again, I'm pretty sure she was maneuvered by someone else into giving Harry Summer Fire, because Mab was not the least bit pissed about it. It was also in Mab's interest/long game to make sure Molly and Harry were protected. Hell, did Titania actually tell Harry specifically how long it had been since she last talked to Mab, or did she just use generalities?
There is at least one reference to Lily not even being able to take care of herself in Proven Guilty, but it is mentioned again and again by Clarice in Summer Knight. I know that a point was made of it at least once each time she showed up.
Anyways, was just browsing through the conversations in Proven Guilty between Harry and Lily and Maeve, and Lily is speaking untruths about Mab and Mab's actions all over the place, BUT SHE DOESN'T REALIZE IT. She even says "Maeve can't lie" flat out, which, as we now know, is a lie. Just to make the point of how the whole "Can't Lie" thing works.
It was also in Mab's interest/long game to make sure Molly and Harry were protected. Hell, did Titania actually tell Harry specifically how long it had been since she last talked to Mab, or did she just use generalities?There is at least one reference to Lily not even being able to take care of herself in Proven Guilty, but it is mentioned again and again by Clarice in Summer Knight. I know that a point was made of it at least once each time she showed up.
Anyways, was just browsing through the conversations in Proven Guilty between Harry and Lily and Maeve, and Lily is speaking untruths about Mab and Mab's actions all over the place, BUT SHE DOESN'T REALIZE IT. She even says "Maeve can't lie" flat out, which, as we now know, is a lie.
Just to make the point of how the whole "Can't Lie" thing works.Assume that Lily heard Titania say "Nearest appropriate vessel" and Lily took that to mean that she was the Summer Knight, and not just the nearest Fae touched female. Then Lily said what she believed to Harry, and the end. I already mentioned the semantics angle, just added in the "Also it could be way more convoluted and devious" on top of that.
Dave
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That's why I did it. The only posts were basically empty except for the spoiler buttons!Isn't the "now with Spoilers" in the thread title enough for the spoiler tags to be unnecessary? I ask cause reading everything in italics hurts my eyes on the phone
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