BACON
The Man of Steel.
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North_Ranger
Staff member
Wow. Pa Kent's an ass...
And not really looking forward to this, especially with the music implying some kind of a SuperJesus on screen...
And not really looking forward to this, especially with the music implying some kind of a SuperJesus on screen...
Out of context, it's hard to determine where that conversation is going. It could go like this:
Clark turns to him and asks, "Would you have let them die?"
Jonathan, sighing and conflicted, "No."
They stare at each other, and then Clark looks out over the cornfields as the sunsets. The implication being that doing the right thing means making a sacrifice. Protecting the safety of others means jeopardizing his own. Being a shield for those who need you means being a target for those who fear you.
It sets up the only real dramatic tension for a character as powerful as Superman: that putting his powers to the best use of humanity is not the best thing for Clark. Jonathan knows this.
And Superman is a Jesus analogy.
North_Ranger
Staff member
...originally created by a pair of Jewish guys. I find some humor in that
Jesus was created by two jewish people too..technically...originally created by a pair of Jewish guys. I find some humor in that
That's why it's called a metaphor. It's not literal.
Or the fact that Jesus came to earth with a mission and a purpose. Superman came to earth to not die, and had to find his place in the world, his morality comes about because of the parents who raise him.
About the only similarity is the fact that they were both sent here as babies.[DOUBLEPOST=1355260276][/DOUBLEPOST]
About the only similarity is the fact that they were both sent here as babies.[DOUBLEPOST=1355260276][/DOUBLEPOST]
It's also a really terrible one.
AHA! You sent me those socks!
God gave the world his only Son as a guidance for us to better ourselves. The earthly parents of Superman (Martha/John) vs Jesus (Mary/Joseph) act as a guide for his earthly endeavours.
It's not just my interpretation here; a lot of this metaphor is coming right from the creators.
North_Ranger
Staff member
I thought he was originally supposed to be a socialist hero beating the living crap out of wealthy landlords and poor-stomping criminals?
He's kind of a mix of several biblical figures: Jesus, Moses, and Sampson. It's hard to deny the religious implications of his mythos because his creators had very strong ties with their Jewish families, not to mention reacting to the Nazi invasion at the same time.
In fact, there have been some studies that believe Superman was created in reaction to Jewish immigrants at the time, how they had to hide much of their true selves to "blend in" with American society, but that when they showed their true colours (in Superman's case: red, yellow, and blue), they were powerful. Given that I'm not an expert on the subject (and only got a low B- on a paper in my Comics & Cartoons class on the subject), I'm probably not giving the argument proper justice.
In fact, there have been some studies that believe Superman was created in reaction to Jewish immigrants at the time, how they had to hide much of their true selves to "blend in" with American society, but that when they showed their true colours (in Superman's case: red, yellow, and blue), they were powerful. Given that I'm not an expert on the subject (and only got a low B- on a paper in my Comics & Cartoons class on the subject), I'm probably not giving the argument proper justice.
I apologize if this offends any of our die hard superman followers but I tend to find the character boring, uninteresting and "perfect". I'm not big on his movies or how he is genereally represented in comics.
That said while I didn't have much interest from the first trailer, this one definitely has me keeping an eye out now. Take that as you will.
That said while I didn't have much interest from the first trailer, this one definitely has me keeping an eye out now. Take that as you will.
I know, I imagine it's my fault as I've not been exposed to much of his media, based solely on my views of him. I tend to prefer marvel over dc usually. If you could point out some decent stuff combating my views of the character, I'd be willing to change my ways.
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
No different than the way we think the Norse gods were worshipped. I like it! (I am concerned, however, around the deification of Star Wars)
Theres plenty of stuff written about comic heroes as new variations on old mythologies and archetypes. The Justice League alone has had a whole bunch of greek pantheon-related imagery stuff in its time, DC marketing the batman/superman/wonderwoman group as "the trinity" of truth, justice and the american way, the list goes on.
Its pretty much the main focus of Kingdom Come, along with... probably most of Grant Morrisons DC work. Superman represents the ideal immigrant, in that he has taken the values of his chosen home, without sacrificing his connection to "the old country", though he has to lead a double life to do it. there's both the "old" threats, Zod, Brainiac, and what have you, and there's the threats from the new, based in fear of the different, like Luthor. Even the bottle city of kandor has some added contextual meaning behind it.
One of the 90s animated batman episodes even had a look at this kind of cyclical mythology thing, with an insane max zeus finally being brought into arkham at the end of the episode, and recognising batmans rogues gallery as his fellow "gods". Poison Ivy as Demeter, Two Face as Janus, and so on.
And then theres Kirbys fourth world.
As has been said, theres a ton of stuff about this around.
I read through Morrisons "Supergods: our world in the age of the superhero" and it was pretty damn interesting. it touches on a whole bunch of stuff, from the more myth/legend inspired stuff, to some pretty interesting history of superhero comics, until morrison goes a bit... insane, near the end. Its a little frustrating in that respect. "heres some genuinely interesting ideas on superhero mythology, and by the way, heres a story about the time I took peyote and met the beings made of light who live on the planet zog, near alpha centauri." Definitely worth a read though.
Its pretty much the main focus of Kingdom Come, along with... probably most of Grant Morrisons DC work. Superman represents the ideal immigrant, in that he has taken the values of his chosen home, without sacrificing his connection to "the old country", though he has to lead a double life to do it. there's both the "old" threats, Zod, Brainiac, and what have you, and there's the threats from the new, based in fear of the different, like Luthor. Even the bottle city of kandor has some added contextual meaning behind it.
One of the 90s animated batman episodes even had a look at this kind of cyclical mythology thing, with an insane max zeus finally being brought into arkham at the end of the episode, and recognising batmans rogues gallery as his fellow "gods". Poison Ivy as Demeter, Two Face as Janus, and so on.
And then theres Kirbys fourth world.
As has been said, theres a ton of stuff about this around.
I read through Morrisons "Supergods: our world in the age of the superhero" and it was pretty damn interesting. it touches on a whole bunch of stuff, from the more myth/legend inspired stuff, to some pretty interesting history of superhero comics, until morrison goes a bit... insane, near the end. Its a little frustrating in that respect. "heres some genuinely interesting ideas on superhero mythology, and by the way, heres a story about the time I took peyote and met the beings made of light who live on the planet zog, near alpha centauri." Definitely worth a read though.
Just watched trailer.
Much worse than I thought it would be.
Much worse than I thought it would be.
I agree with this. I took that part of the trailer as a snippet of the middle of the conversation. I like the idea that Pa Kent actually struggles with what to do when faced with something as enormous as Clark and his powers. If anything, it reflects the struggle that Clark goes through as Superman. If Clark doesn't have to think about doing the right thing and he does it BECAUSE it's the right thing, it's weak writing and uninteresting to the viewer.
It's a common complaint that Superman is too bland, too predictable, and too "perfect". He is, after all, the Boy Scout of the DC universe. The most interesting Superman stories aren't about his powers or his abilities...we already know he's pretty much a god with the yellow sun. The most interesting stories are the ones that delve into WHO Clark Kent is and how he deals with his humanity, which is alien to the alien himself.
Watching a story about who he is is what made Superman Returns a good movie to me. Yeah, watching him catch that plane or get shot in the eyeball with a smirk on his face was cool, but I was far more entertained by the idea of him yearning for a connection to his birthplace so much that he sacrifices his relationship with the woman he loves only to come back to find her with another man. Was the movie executed perfectly? No, watching him struggle with a very human situation is what makes me continue to enjoy it.
Watching the development of Clark Kent was what made Smallville and all of its faults worth watching. The show wasn't great, but the few episodes per season where we got actual development of the character and story were really good. At least, that's why I fought through all 10 seasons.
I can only hope that Man of Steel does something similar.
North_Ranger
Staff member
Wasn't there an article a few years back that said that Superman and Lois enacting the Kryptonian Tork Beast With Two Backs would result in her gruesome death?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Steel,_Woman_of_Kleenex
Yeah, and I hate it. Why does so much gruesome detail have to go into fictional characters? I love superheroes for their ideals, not for wanting to kill each other while having sex.
Yeah, and I hate it. Why does so much gruesome detail have to go into fictional characters? I love superheroes for their ideals, not for wanting to kill each other while having sex.
It's a short essay by Larry Niven called "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" from his story collection "All the Myriad Ways".
I believe the entire text is available here.
I'm fairly certain that Niven wrote it more as a satire or joke as opposed to a serious examination of the topic.
Maybe. Maybe not. But now it's been out there for decades, it's pretty much considered canon. I've had a friend who always brings it up.
That's.... honestly a pretty weird thing to be upset about.
First of all, it's almost definitely not canon. Are there *any* main-line superman comics that feature it? I'm pretty sure he's just canonically married to Lois or has been at some point. It's a random joke that got traction. Lots of things have sex-related jokes that spring up around them. In fact, basically literally everything ever.
I think it *has* been used in some non-main versions (there's a smallville episode where Clark is *afraid* of something bad happening, my assumption is that eventually he develops better control/assurance).
If it were completely canon, it'd just mean Superman is a virgin, which would frankly be thematically appropriate since he's a sort of Jesus metaphor to begin with.
First of all, it's almost definitely not canon. Are there *any* main-line superman comics that feature it? I'm pretty sure he's just canonically married to Lois or has been at some point. It's a random joke that got traction. Lots of things have sex-related jokes that spring up around them. In fact, basically literally everything ever.
I think it *has* been used in some non-main versions (there's a smallville episode where Clark is *afraid* of something bad happening, my assumption is that eventually he develops better control/assurance).
If it were completely canon, it'd just mean Superman is a virgin, which would frankly be thematically appropriate since he's a sort of Jesus metaphor to begin with.
Eh, I guess it's sort of like the "Aquaman is useless" and "Batman and Robin are totally gay" jokes. I've heard them so much over the years that I'm just sick of it.
As far as Superman being a virgin, I don't go with that. He might be a moral guy, but he's not meant to be a puritanical child, either. That works more for Captain Marvel or something. It's like in the first Superman movie, where him and Lois are totally flirting ("Yes, I like pink very much.") and he says Peter Pan's a fairy tale. Superman's meant to be a more adult character.
As far as Superman being a virgin, I don't go with that. He might be a moral guy, but he's not meant to be a puritanical child, either. That works more for Captain Marvel or something. It's like in the first Superman movie, where him and Lois are totally flirting ("Yes, I like pink very much.") and he says Peter Pan's a fairy tale. Superman's meant to be a more adult character.
Unrelated to the debate at hand, but I've always seen it more of a Moses thing. Sent away by his parents, raised by another culture, leads people to freedom...
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