[Comics] Can you Answer Mark Waid's Superman Quiz?

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Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Trust me, I'm not even trying to White Knight for you here, it's a conversation I've heard in many a comic book shop and everytime it's come down to the same thing. -He's too perfect, what a goody two shoes, he's so one dimensional- Usually from someone who knows little or next to nothing about Superman.

Ravenpoe - They do plenty of exploring of Superman as a darker/gritier version with his other incarnations: ex: Superboy.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

*lip quibble* B-but...all those wonderful things you said and...it's like we were meant for each other!

*throws the ring in your face*

YOU SAID I NAMED SOME GOOD SOLID ONES!

*runs away crying*
 
Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Gilgamesh said:
Trust me, I'm not even trying to White Knight for you here, it's a conversation I've heard in many a comic book shop and everytime it's come down to the same thing. -He's too perfect, what a goody two shoes, he's so one dimensional- Usually from someone who knows little or next to nothing about Superman.

Ravenpoe - They do plenty of exploring of Superman as a darker/gritier version with his other incarnations: ex: Superboy.
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I enjoy Superman elseworlds stories, like Red Son. I enjoy main continuity Supes too, I just prefer other comics.

I really enjoyed Superman vs The Elite, because I feel like it exemplifies why Superman being so good is important.
 
bhamv3

bhamv3

Ok I'm not getting my point across very well.

Superman is not a character that embodies what an average guy who suddenly gets superpowers would be like. Superman embodies what an average guy who gets superpowers should be. He's an ideal to strive towards, which by its nature means he has greater moral fiber than your average joe. That is not to say no other superhero has that, of course many of them do. So true, it would be unfair to single out Superman for it.

Some people enjoy Superman for being the big blue boy scout. Others find it hard to enjoy.

And that's all I have to say about that. *runs from thread*
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Maybe that's why bad boys like Batman and Wolverine are so popular. Yeah, it's all great and stuff to read about mister goodie two-shoes, but really, it's more fun to see characters that do stuff we'd love to do but would never get away with doing. People prefer broken bad boys to idealistic good guys not because they're more relatable, but because they're more cathartic? Does that make sense?

Also, while I'm talking about Supes being a goodie two-shoes, let me post one of my absolute favourite Superman moments. Brief context: Superman just saved a school from being shot up and traced the guns to a dealer who sold them to underage teens.

 
Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
Maybe that's why bad boys like Batman and Wolverine are so popular. Yeah, it's all great and stuff to read about mister goodie two-shoes, but really, it's more fun to see characters that do stuff we'd love to do but would never get away with doing. People prefer broken bad boys to idealistic good guys not because they're more relatable, but because they're more cathartic? Does that make sense?

Also, while I'm talking about Supes being a goodie two-shoes, let me post one of my absolute favourite Superman moments. Brief context: Superman just saved a school from being shot up and traced the guns to a dealer who sold them to underage teens.

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... da fuck is wrong with his hand?
 
strawman

strawman

In most super hero stories a seemingly ordinary human becomes extraordinary. It keys into fundamental pubescent fantasies most humans experience. This is why most of these conversions into superhero happen as teen to young adult, rather than being born with it(destroys the fantasy) or happening as an adult (too far away).

Superman is alien. No one can fantasize about becoming him in the same way they can fantasize about becoming Spider-Man, batman, xmen, etc.

It doesn't make him any worse or better a character, and there are certainly characteristics beyond this issue that are more important, but this is one issue that might help some understand why others feel a basic disconnect from superman.
 
Frank

Frank

Ravenpoe said:
I enjoy Superman elseworlds stories, like Red Son. I enjoy main continuity Supes too, I just prefer other comics.

I really enjoyed Superman vs The Elite, because I feel like it exemplifies why Superman being so good is important.
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Ehhh, Superman vs The Elite was a pretty poor attempt to shit on The Authority. They had to make the analogs increasingly evil to make the story work.
 
Covar

Covar

Considering the Authority is a pretty poor attempt to shit on the Justice League, I'm going to call this one ok.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

stienman said:
In most super hero stories a seemingly ordinary human becomes extraordinary. It keys into fundamental pubescent fantasies most humans experience. This is why most of these conversions into superhero happen as teen to young adult, rather than being born with it(destroys the fantasy) or happening as an adult (too far away).

Superman is alien. No one can fantasize about becoming him in the same way they can fantasize about becoming Spider-Man, batman, xmen, etc.

It doesn't make him any worse or better a character, and there are certainly characteristics beyond this issue that are more important, but this is one issue that might help some understand why others feel a basic disconnect from superman.
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I'll repeat again, from Mark Waid, "That's what Clark Kent is for." :D
 
General Specific

General Specific

Ok, wow guys. I totally did not mean to start that sort of argument. It was simply MY OPINION that Superman is unrelatable TO ME. I am not going to argue why.

If you like Superman, cool, go have fun with that. Just don't demand that I have to like him too.
 
Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Noone's asking you to like him, just saying that he's unrelatable because he has super powers is a poor point that many comic book fans have debunked for years. You can dislike him all you like, I mean, it's an opinion after all.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

Gilgamesh said:
Noone's asking you to like him, just saying that he's unrelatable because he has super powers is a poor point that many comic book fans have debunked for years. You can dislike him all you like, I mean, it's an opinion after all.
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It's not that he has superpowers, it's that he has ALL the superpowers :p
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

The biggest issue with Superman, is actually the biggest issue with most super-heroes. They're inconsistantly written due to the fact that they have different writers. Wolverine can be a feral berzerker with no soul or redeemable qualities to speak of, or he can be an honerable samurai who constantly fights the beast inside, depends on who's writing him. Spider-Man can be a put upon every-man who feels the full responsibility that his powers bring, or he can be a whiny tool, depends on who's writing him. Superman can be a clueless Gary Stu, or he can be a morally complex metaphor for a stranger living in a strange land trying to fit in, depending on who is writing him.

Honestly, one of the best examples of how he has a deeper side is from Justice League Unlimited. When he is fighting Darkseid and he tells him how difficult it is to hold back like everything on earth is made of paper.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
The relatability issue isn't about powers at all for me. It's about the ultra-morality. It could be any other character. In fact, I'm not sure "relatable" is the right adjective. I think I just don't like it. If relatability comes into play, it's that I don't think that's an ideal I strive for. The fully loaded "truth, justice, and the American way" phrase is the whole issue, not the powers. Same problem I have with Captain America. That archetype is not for me, and I think it's not for a lot of comic readers. But, that being said, it's personal preference, and it shouldn't affect anyone else's opinion of the character. He does have some very good stories.
 
Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

fade - Correct. There's nothing wrong with saying he's unrelatable to YOU because he's what all good people strive to be like, especially if that's not your own personal goal. However saying he's unrelatable to anyone/people is the problem and what began the little conversation that took place.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

*infatuated sigh* Morrison's one of those writers that just gets Superman. Around the time he was finishing All Star Superman, Newsarama or some other comic book site had a massive, multi-part interview with him, covering all aspects of Superman, his mythos, and supporting characters. It was fantastic to read how he got every single aspect.
 
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