Verizon & Obama: all your calls are belong to us.

[strawman]

NSA ordered Verizon to provide an ongoing data feed containing data about every single phone call occurring on Verizon's network that has at least one end of the phone call in the US.

This order continues through July 13th.

The data included is the phone numbers on both ends of the call, the call duration, the serial numbers of the phones used for the calls, time, date, and other meta data.

It does not include audio from the call itself.

The order was supposed to be secret, but it was leaked in full to the guardian, so I imagine its going to be less effective, as people might try to avoid the Verizon network to conduct criminal or terrorist activity.

However, one could presume similar orders have been given to sprint, AT&T, tmobile, and other primary carriers, so it might not matter which network you use.

This far surpasses the stupid stuff performed under the guise of the patriot act. At least warrantless wire taps targeted individual suspects.

Here they target every single US citizen.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

 

[Gared]

The best thing I saw on this was the tweet last night from GeorgeOrwell1984 "I told you so."

 

[Ravenpoe]

Isn't this how every evil empire starts in every story about evil empires, ever?

Also, didn't Batman do this, and make Morgan Freeman quit?

 

[GasBandit]

Do I even need to? No, I don't think I do.

 

[Dave]

And coming out in favor of it? Two senators - one D & one R. I guess that makes us F'd.

 

[GasBandit]

And coming out in favor of it? Two senators - one D & one R. I guess that makes us F'd.

The myth:

The reality

The alternative

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

You don't have to be a Libertarian to hate this for the record

 

[GasBandit]

You don't have to be a Libertarian to hate this for the record

No, but if you're still a republican or democrat after all this, your hate is impotent and insignificant.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

No, but if you're still a republican or democrat after all this, your hate is impotent and insignificant.

well, yeah, you can say what you want about me, but I'm not registered democrat / never campaigned or donated to a democrat politician

 

[GasBandit]

well, yeah, you can say what you want about me, but I'm not registered democrat / never campaigned or donated to a democrat politician

It doesn't matter what you register, it matters what you vote. Who have you voted for? That's what you are.

 

[strawman]

No, but if you're still a republican or democrat after all this, your hate is impotent and insignificant.

I'm still hopeful enough to believe that the effort required to make one of the reigning parties into some approximation of good is less than the effort required bringing a third party into electoral parity.

 

[GasBandit]

I'm still hopeful enough to believe that the effort required to make one of the reigning parties into some approximation of good is less than the effort required bringing a third party into electoral parity.

Yeah, it's fun to dream.

 

[drawn_inward]

It doesn't matter what you register, it matters what you vote. Who have you voted for? That's what you are.

Unfortunately, there is usually only 2 options, sometimes only one. I have been abstaining to vote for certain offices for quite some time. When I announce that there is no one that I support or no one that has my best interest I get, "But, you might as well be giving a vote to ...."

I am exercising my right to vote for State Questions and not voting for career politicians, nepotism, cronism, and candidates that look the same on paper.

 

[GasBandit]

I don't know what to tell you. I can't remember the last time I voted where a noteworthy position only had two candidates on the ballot. Do they not do write-ins where you are?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

It's harder to get on the ballot some places than other.

 

[Zappit]

Can you hear me now?

Yes.

Us, too!

 

[Gilgamesh]

It doesn't matter what you register, it matters what you vote. Who have you voted for? That's what you are.

Funniest thing I've read all day.

 

[Gared]

Boy... bad couple of days for the NSA. First we had the Verizon document leak, then today we had confirmation in the WSJ that this affects AT&T and Sprint as well, and also several internet companies, as well as credit card transactions. Oh, and that minor little PRISM thing.

 

[bhamv3]

But at least you guys feel a lot safer, right?

 

[PatrThom]

But at least you guys feel a lot safer, right?

Hey, if we're innocent, we have nothing to hide, right?

--Patrick

 

[Gilgamesh]

Hey, if we're innocent, we have nothing to hide, right?

--Patrick

Is it wrong that for the most part I actually feel that way? I could give a shit if the government has access to my phone records. I could give a shit if Google monitors my internet. Until they actually invade ACTUAL privacy, I don't really care much. I can understand why some, bit more sensitive people, would have issues with it though. Also the -this is just the beginning of a police state/Orwell world- well I just have to smirk and walk on.

 

[GasBandit]

Funniest thing I've read all day.

I've noticed that laughter is a defense mechanism for you, to shield your mind from truths you find unpleasant.

Is it wrong that for the most part I actually feel that way [the innocent have nothing to hide]?

Yes. It's the thought process of a collaborative apparatchik who has never ascended maslow's pyramid any higher than he could hop on one foot, nor considered the plain truth that everyone has something which can be used by someone else as a lever, collar, or guillotine. Even bright-faced hardworking proletarians.

 

[Gilgamesh]

I've noticed that laughter is a defense mechanism for you, to shield your mind from truths you find unpleasant.

Nope, you're world view, much like Charlie's is simply hilarious to me. You're both a coin with completely opposite and extreme sides. Seeing the world in Black or White. Your entire Political Thread has been some of the most amusing reading I've done with your simple lack of sense of reality. I told you this during the election thread. Everything you think is right or should be right is fantastic on paper, but never has been or will be, the way the world works. It just isn't, the fact that you can't accept/acknowledge that, I went from feeling bad for, to simply laughing about. I don't mean it to be insulting, especially since you know that your line of thinking doesn't work in the real world. For the record, your defensive mechanism is to change the subject, when your previous one is confronted and shut down, also much like Charlie's. I've said before you two are more alike that most I see here.

 

[GasBandit]

Nope, you're world view, much like Charlie's is simply hilarious to me. You're both a coin with completely opposite and extreme sides. Seeing the world in Black or White. Your entire Political Thread has been some of the most amusing reading I've done with your simple lack of sense of reality. I told you this during the election thread. Everything you think is right or should be right is fantastic on paper, but never has been or will be, the way the world works. It just isn't, the fact that you can't accept/acknowledge that, I went from feeling bad for, to simply laughing about. I don't mean it to be insulting, especially since you know that your line of thinking doesn't work in the real world. For the record, your defensive mechanism is to change the subject, when your previous one is confronted and shut down, also much like Charlie's. I've said before you two are more alike that most I see here.

And yet you never actually discuss how they "won't work" other than enigmatically pretending your own subjective life struggles (mostly brought on by horrible, horrible life decisions that reflect a crippling inability to associate cause with effect, action with consequence) trump all.

 

[Gilgamesh]

And yet you never actually discuss how they "won't work" other than enigmatically pretending your own subjective life struggles (mostly brought on by horrible, horrible life decisions that reflect a crippling inability to associate cause with effect, action with consequence) trump all.

Um, yeah, there has been plenty of times it's been pointed out to you how they -won't work-. Either you purposely ignore them or you change subjects every single time. People don't say -I'm done trying to converse with you- so often/frequently because they're wrong, it's because you can't accept reality. What's the saying: If you keep having failed relationships, maybe the problem isn't the other person?

 

[tegid]

I could give a shit if the government has access to my phone records. I could give a shit if Google monitors my internet. Until they actually invade ACTUAL privacy, I don't really care much

Your phone records and your internet are not part of your privacy? What would be invading your privacy then? Putting cameras inside your home?

 

[strawman]

I'm reminded by the RIAA going after the grandma and the child due to evidence found in data records.

Those who believe that the innocent will be unaffected are simply wrong.

In two months time the NSA can essentially form a graph that connects every single person in the US to every other person, and rate their relationship. If they find evidence on one person they will suspect everyone else connected to a degree or two, and those people will be under scrutiny and possible investigation.

Just having received a phone call from a suspect might be enough for a judge to order all your phone lines tapped.

Not only is it an egregious invasion of privacy, but it's a huge waste of taxpayer money.

Keep in mind that they are also tracking people using their cell phones. It's not just who you call or receive calls from, but where you are at throughout the day.

I don't mind if they have specific warrants for specific people.

Spying on everyone all the time, however, is wrong.

In twenty years time they will still be using this two month database to attack people.

 

[DarkAudit]

Keep in mind that they are also tracking people using their cell phones. It's not just who you call or receive calls from, but where you are at throughout the day.

It is therefore every patriotic American's duty to drive to their local mosque every day and do 20 minutes worth of calisthenics.

 

[Covar]

Is it wrong that for the most part I actually feel that way? I could give a shit if the government has access to my phone records. I could give a shit if Google monitors my internet. Until they actually invade ACTUAL privacy, I don't really care much. I can understand why some, bit more sensitive people, would have issues with it though. Also the -this is just the beginning of a police state/Orwell world- well I just have to smirk and walk on.

Well fortunately the Government is incorruptible and what grievous abuses of power there are are only used against hardened criminals and terrorists.

 

[strawman]

New information comes to light today:

All the major carriers are affected, and internet companies are dealing with the same kinds of required releases.

Oh, and all credit card transactions.

I'm starting to sympathize with those who have for so long crazily refused to use electronic transactions and mobile phones, worried about government intrusion into their personal lives.

The NSA and FBI appear to be casting an even wider net under a clandestine program code-named "PRISM" that came to light in a story posted late Thursday by The Washington Post. PRISM gives the U.S. government access to email, documents, audio, video, photographs and other data that people entrust to some of the world's best known companies, according to The Washington Post. The newspaper said it reviewed a confidential roster of companies and services participating in PRISM. The companies included AOL Inc., Apple Inc., Facebook Inc., Google Inc., Microsoft Corp., Yahoo Inc., Skype, YouTube and Paltalk.

The NSA isn't getting customer names or the content of phone conversations under the Verizon court order, but that doesn't mean the information can't be tied to other data coming in through the PRISM program to look into people's lives, according to experts.

Like pieces of a puzzle, the bits and bytes left behind from citizens' electronic interactions can be cobbled together to draw conclusions about their habits, friendships and preferences using data-mining formulas and increasingly powerful computers.

...both the NSA and FBI have the ability to burrow into computers of major Internet services...

So the government can see who you call and who calls you, what you buy, where you shop, where you are at, all of your internet communications (email, pictures, along with what sites you're visiting, who you're communicating with, etc).

While the claim is for "terrorist activity" the data is available to ALL investigators at the FBI for ANY investigation, in the past or future.

So if the government decides to crack down on copyright infringement (oh, right, it's called piracy, isn't it) then the investigators can use all of that information against potential infringers.

If they decide that 3D printers are a problem, they can find out everyone who has any interest in a 3D printer, homemade or otherwise, and harass them.

If they choose to attack home schooling, they have the tools to track people down who are teaching their children outside the classroom (don't scoff - many countries have made home schooling illegal, punishable by jail time, and there are groups in the US actively campaigning to end home schooling).

And don't be so quick to completely blame Obama - apparently this data collection started in the Bush years (note how many republicans are now defending it), though it was extended and significantly expanded under Obama.

Either way, it's wrong.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I hate agreeing with GasBandit, but - Gilgamesh

 

[sixpackshaker]

At least the government has no record of abusing this type of information.

Spoiler

 

[PatrThom]

Either way, it's wrong.

I don't have time right now to go into detail, but suffice it to say that I agree wholeheartedly.
If you thought Prenda Law was a bunch of heartless nogoodnik trolls for trapping people due to their download history, try to think of the sorts of connections and harrassment the Government could get up to with what they think you might be doing based on the connections they draw. Buy a pressure cooker? Visit Al Jazeera? Like watching YouTube videos of explosions? Get labeled as potential terrorist and put on the watch list.

So much potential for abuse, so many people unjustly accused because they fit a "pattern."

--Patrick

 

[strawman]

many people unjustly accused because they fit a "pattern."

This is one of the more troubling aspects.

When the IRS creates a loophole, they can only guess how it will turn out. Create a low income rental housing credit? Suddenly a bunch of apartments turn into slums because it's free money. Try to balance that out with regulations? A bunch of apartments foreclose, lenders lose money, and they turn into squatter's paradise which no one is willing to buy and refurbish. Only happens to 1% of the apartments, so it's seen as a success overall, but there's that one fly in the ointment where they destroyed a few blocks of city.

Big Data is the term used when you try to tease out usable information from unimaginably huge reams of data. Where a terabyte is a few microseconds worth of data, and you're throwing petabytes around daily and talking about exabyte size databases.

Data analysts sit there and without having any sort of hard science, they theorize. "Well, if someone visits walmart, then home for a few hours, then goes to the middle of nowhere for an hour, then goes home and visits a few discussion boards, chances are very slightly greater that they built and tested a bomb than they went to the park with their kids. That slight increase in chance will be added to their overall score.

Add a few thousand analysts trying to come up with probabilities that I am or am not a terrorist, child molester, gun runner, drug distributor, etc, etc, etc, and my score is going to be greater than 0. It might not approach a threshold, but who decides what the threshold is, and how do they set it?

Well, they simply take the top thousand scores, and investigate them. The fact that they've been investigated, btw, adds to their score. They then go back and separate those that were actually guilty of some crime from those that weren't, and they now have a data set to refine their thousands of patterns with.

The problem isn't only that they'll target innocent people, it's that they'll eventually get to the point where others slip through the net - purposefully or not - and because they feel like they have "complete information" they are going to have these gaping huge holes, but a sense of safety which is unwarranted.

And, of course, if you eschew cell phones, computers, and electronics you're going to be at the top of their list. That's going to be considered extremely abnormal.