The Man of Steel.
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You guys and your gnashing of teeth. You never fail me.
I enjoyed it. The only comic movie I've enjoyed more was The Avengers. It's a great summer action movie. We aren't dealing with the Superman that people know, we're watching the hero develop.
And excusing the death of Zod and Ursa in Superman II because there's a deleted scene that shows them alive? Fucking cop-out, lameass justification of a nostalgic movie when he did the same thing to what was basically a human. But, oh no no, a deleted scene makes it OK...I guess...sort of...if you cock your head to the right a little.
I enjoyed it. The only comic movie I've enjoyed more was The Avengers. It's a great summer action movie. We aren't dealing with the Superman that people know, we're watching the hero develop.
And excusing the death of Zod and Ursa in Superman II because there's a deleted scene that shows them alive? Fucking cop-out, lameass justification of a nostalgic movie when he did the same thing to what was basically a human. But, oh no no, a deleted scene makes it OK...I guess...sort of...if you cock your head to the right a little.
No, it counts because it was filmed but edited out possibly by the second director who came in later (who is also responsible for all the lame comedy bits and the cellophane S). It's in the Richard Donner director's cut. And as I said, rule #1 when defeating bad guys: no body, no proof of death. There are countless times Joker was seemingly killed but came back because of this same thing. We didn't see Joker's body at the end of The Laughing Fish episode, so he must be dead.
It was filmed, the director's original intent was there. There is a large difference between the director showing Superman's complete lack of empathy for his beloved human race, then committing a murder when he clearly had other options. The problem here is the director's take on Superman is a slap in the face to the character and his beliefs. The Donner Superman 2 clearly had intent to show that it was not a murder, for reasons unknown (most likely idiot producers/execs) cut the scene in the original theatrical release.
For those of you who hated this movie, what are you comparing it to? For me, Superman has always been a boring hero. Growing up I was more into Marvel, specifically Spider-Man, as I saw that character as someone I could relate to. The prior Superman movies were not very good. The 1978 movie was the equivalent of the 60's Batman. It was tongue in cheek with a bumbling villain. Clark was a goofy character there for the amusement of the audience. The second movie was more of the same. Every movie after that got a little worse. Superman Returns was a boring two hours that I'll never get back. This movie made me care about Superman, more specifically Clark. It successfully portrayed him as an outsider who wanted to fit in. Even though he's invincible he came across vulnerable. Without saying too much the tornado scene between him and his father was one of the best moments in the movie (in my opinion). General Zod's motivation made perfect sense. And he was vicious when it came to executing his plan. This was the first time in the history of Superman I actually cared for this character. As far as the special effects. . . wow. I really enjoyed The Avengers but compared to Man of Steel that movie seems like a Saturday morning cartoon. The devastation to the city seemed real. Great movie.
Everything Superman has done and stood for since his inception.
Exactly why I put you and others in the group of -If you don't care about Superman, you'll enjoy this film
Yet I could argue that the latest Spider-Man movie was also trash.
Talk about an opinion with little substance.
I think you misunderstand the entire character of Clark Kent, though you already admitted you're not very familiar/knowledgeable about the mythos.
Correct, Superman 3-4 and Returns were not great films.
Noone is arguing against that. It's not what's wrong with the film. It's what they did right.
Except that wasn't Pa Kent behavior, and wasn't from the beginning of the movie. Not even remotely close.
Correct, again, Zod was great, the special effects were great. Noone is knocking those parts.
Devestation seemed real. Absolutely. In Superman's style? Not even close.
Again, Great movie? Yes. Great Superman film? Complete trash.
I think you guys are not mad that it's not true to Superman, but that it's not your version of what's true to Superman. There's been so many incarnations of the character. This is just another one. It's own thing. I can't remember how often I've been shit on for comparing source material to adaptation here. Same thing.
Incorrect, even the writers of the best Superman stories are destroying it with criticism. See the Mark Waid link Nick posted. If you can't be bothered, then don't assume.
And even Spider-Man was able to find a way to beat his enemies without straight up murdering them.
Kurt Busiek liked it, he's one of the best Superman writers. ERRYONE GOT OPINIONS.
Fuck off with your incorrect bullshit.[DOUBLEPOST=1371340929][/DOUBLEPOST]
They tried (and failed I think) to do Nolan's version of Schrodinger's cat there. It wasn't handled well, but that's Zach "blunt" Snyder for you.
He's also the minority. Opinions can be wrong, most often when the majority of experts on the subject are in agreement. Sorry.
Stop being wrong and angry and I would?Frank said:
I'm not angry, you're being a condescending cunt to everyone you reply to while using your own opinions as if they're facts, something you do constantly (and will defensively claim you don't EVERY time you're called on it). That response is what you deserve.
I like that you claim experts, when the only expert that has been shown in this thread is Mark Waid. Good majority.
I like that you claim experts, when the only expert that has been shown in this thread is Mark Waid. Good majority.
Except there is no version of Superman where he straight up murders someone so cold-blooded. Or, from what I've read, has so little care for the innocent people around him. Apparently, he was throwing Kryptonians into buildings all over place? That's careless, which isn't Superman, either.
It's becoming clear to me that this movie was designed for people who don't ordinarily like Superman. Which, from what I understand, includes David Goyer and Chris Nolan. Which makes a lot of sense when you see it that way.
But apparently, making Superman "cool" for people who don't like him is to make him careless and willing to kill. Because I guess we don't have enough superheroes out there like that, already.
That's what I keep telling everyone who is arguing the point, it's like they take that as an insult when they themselves will say in their own post -I don't normally like Superman/Find him boring- etc
He's pretty murdery in Red Son (which apparently is Henry Cavill's favorite Superman story)
People were so stoked to have Nolan watching over the movie, but you can see what his additions were. The killing Zod predicament was a wholly Nolan thing, unfortunately Zach Snyder is incapable of ever being subtle.
I agree, it's the same to you as it is with me and Star Trek. What we like or want isn't what's going to make big splosion bucks. It isn't for us.
Superman #22, the first time Superman ever kills anyone. Main comic continuum.
Outside the main continuum, there have been lots of iterations of Superman that killed.
Smallville, series 6, Clark kills a superpowered villain called Titan.
Injustice: Gods Among Us. Alternate reality world in which The Joker tricks Superman into murdering Lois, leading to him becoming a murdering tyrant.
Death of Superman: Superman and Doomsday kill each other (spoiler, neither are really dead, but he fully intended to kill Doomsday because there was no other way to stop him)
Examples where an alternate world Superman becomes a murdering tyrant after crossing the line backs up our point, rather than weakens it.
I'm also glad you brought up Doomsday. That was an example where they COULD have easily avoided most of this WTFery that's going on. In the Death of Superman arc, Superman tries multiple times to pull the fight away from the populated areas, but Doomsday keeps pulling him back. What's annoying people isn't even so much that Superman kills at all, it's that he does it callously and has no regard for the safety of the people he's trying to protect. Look back to my reaction to the final trailer. Superman throws Zod into a gas station with literally miles of empty farmland around him. There were obviously people at the gas station, because there's a car there. Those people are dead. So, apparently this one family at the end is more important enough for him to murder someone, but it's perfectly OK to put civilians in harms way prior to that.
Also, Smallvile... lol.
I'm also glad you brought up Doomsday. That was an example where they COULD have easily avoided most of this WTFery that's going on. In the Death of Superman arc, Superman tries multiple times to pull the fight away from the populated areas, but Doomsday keeps pulling him back. What's annoying people isn't even so much that Superman kills at all, it's that he does it callously and has no regard for the safety of the people he's trying to protect. Look back to my reaction to the final trailer. Superman throws Zod into a gas station with literally miles of empty farmland around him. There were obviously people at the gas station, because there's a car there. Those people are dead. So, apparently this one family at the end is more important enough for him to murder someone, but it's perfectly OK to put civilians in harms way prior to that.
Also, Smallvile... lol.
Superman #22, the first time Superman ever kills anyone. Main comic continuum.
Outside the main continuum, there have been lots of iterations of Superman that killed.
Smallville, series 6, Clark kills a superpowered villain called Titan.
Injustice: Gods Among Us. Alternate reality world in which The Joker tricks Superman into murdering Lois, leading to him becoming a murdering tyrant.
Death of Superman: Superman and Doomsday kill each other (spoiler, neither are really dead, but he fully intended to kill Doomsday because there was no other way to stop him)
According to the Smallville wiki, "death was only the result of Titan falling on his own bone 'claws' rather than anything Clark did)"
Injustice is an alternate time-line with Superman going bad, so doesn't count. Ditto for Red Son. The Doomsday thing, maybe okay, but he sacrificed his own life doing it. Reading into it like that, you could say breaking his one rule killed him.
As for Superman #22, I mentioned that before. For one, I don't agree with it, but the aftermath of that was at least interesting. Superman had a complete nervous or mental breakdown because of it and left Earth for awhile due to said instability. Even after, it still haunted him. I highly doubt we'll see that same kind of emphasis on guilt from Goyer & Nolan.
There are many writers, like Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, who disagree with the idea of Superman killing. Even Kurt Busiek, who did like the film, said, "Not what I would have done, but for the story they were telling it worked okay," which is a weak compliment.
Injustice is an alternate time-line with Superman going bad, so doesn't count. Ditto for Red Son. The Doomsday thing, maybe okay, but he sacrificed his own life doing it. Reading into it like that, you could say breaking his one rule killed him.
As for Superman #22, I mentioned that before. For one, I don't agree with it, but the aftermath of that was at least interesting. Superman had a complete nervous or mental breakdown because of it and left Earth for awhile due to said instability. Even after, it still haunted him. I highly doubt we'll see that same kind of emphasis on guilt from Goyer & Nolan.
There are many writers, like Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, who disagree with the idea of Superman killing. Even Kurt Busiek, who did like the film, said, "Not what I would have done, but for the story they were telling it worked okay," which is a weak compliment.
Back in the early days of comics, Batman used a gun too. That's all been retconned for a reason. It was considered out of character and not right for who he was/is/stands for.
That's fine if they would have done an alternate reality world style Superman, but that's not what it was. It was supposed to be a retelling of who Superman is and stands for and they failed.
Also wrong, he eventually puts him on a meteor and chunks him out into space.
They could have done so much with the fact that it was his first time super heroing, like him not understanding just how far he could go and yeah, putting people in danger there. It would have required a more talented film maker and writer though.[DOUBLEPOST=1371344940][/DOUBLEPOST]
The exact quote I saw was "I thought it was an interesting and powerful interpretation of Superman. Not perfect, but very good at what it set out to be."
Not glowing, but more of a compliment than you're giving him credit for giving it.
The exact quote I saw was "I thought it was an interesting and powerful interpretation of Superman. Not perfect, but very good at what it set out to be."
Not glowing, but more of a compliment than you're giving him credit for giving it.
Was anyone thrown off with how quickly they'd cut scene to the next one and it'd be days/weeks/months/years later? I'm not even talking about the flashback scenes, I'm talking about how scenes just popped into each other with no explanation of time passing. It was off putting for a while.
Actually, what I quoted was a direct quote, as well. I asked him specifically how he felt about "that moment" and that's what he said.
Can you Superfans give me some GOOD Superman stories to check out? Like, the really good stuff, the stuff on par with Busiek's original Samaritan story or All-Star Superman.
Like most of the big two's output, most of what I've read is unfortunately crap. (this isn't insulting the characters you love, but the questionable editorial decisions of DC and Marvel over the years)
Another sort of Superman story I've read that I liked was one were he was spending time with Billy Batson after finding out he was Shazam but that was more of a Captain Marvel story.
Like most of the big two's output, most of what I've read is unfortunately crap. (this isn't insulting the characters you love, but the questionable editorial decisions of DC and Marvel over the years)
Another sort of Superman story I've read that I liked was one were he was spending time with Billy Batson after finding out he was Shazam but that was more of a Captain Marvel story.
No, you're wrong on this one. Superman has every intention of killing him. The Death of Superman is one of my favorite story arcs, so I'm pretty familiar with it.
Obviously neither of them are REALLY dead, but Superman straight up says he will do whatever it takes to stop him. However, they did make it a point to have Dubblex (a psychic from STAR labs) tell him that Doomsday is barely sentient and that his only goal is to kill everything and everyone he sees.
Fair enough.
All Star Superman's my top pick, but others I tend to recommend:
1) Superman Secret Identity - Not just my favourite Superman story, but my favourite comic.
2) Death/Funeral/Return of Superman - The writing has become a bit outdated, but it's still a fun epic.
3) Birthright - Sort of like DC's answer to Marvel's Ultimate universe, this takes Superman and puts him in today's setting. They even explain very well why it's not just the glasses that fool people.
4) Kingdom Come - Technically stars everyone from the DC Universe, but this is definitely a Superman story at its core.
5) Superman for All Seasons - A really touching book that focuses a lot on Superman's very optimistic - and maybe a little naive - farmboy viewpoint on the world.[DOUBLEPOST=1371345554][/DOUBLEPOST]Yeah, I kind of agree with Bowie on this one. Technically, he does intend to kill Doomsday, but they sort of rectify that by having it explained that Doomsday really isn't all that alive and is more or less just a killing machine.
Hey now, the mullet doesn't appear until near the end.
Also, fuck you. I had a mullet in High School.
...wait, why am I proud of that?
^This. So much this. Barrels full of this.
Hey now, the mullet doesn't appear until near the end.
Also, fuck you. I had a mullet in High School.
...wait, why am I proud of that?
Well, it was the 90s.
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