Grant Morrison's Mind Blowing Killing Joke Revelation

mikerc

mikerc

Covar said:
No it's a terrible Batman story all about how Joker is right, and Batman's just as insane and wrong as he is.
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Now see I got the complete opposite impression. Joker's saying "I'm not responsible for what I am, I had a really bad day once and it made me this, Batman had a really bad day once and it drove him insane too, I'll prove it by giving Commissioner Gordon a bad day driving him insane."

Except he's wrong - yes Batman was traumatized by his bad day but he found a way to cope (admittedly dressing up as a giant bat and punching criminals in the face isn't a coping mechanism that would work for most orphans), and Gordon wasn't broken by everything Joker did. The whole point of the story is to show that Joker is wrong.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

Covar said:
No it's a terrible Batman story all about how Joker is right, and Batman's just as insane and wrong as he is. There is nothing heroic about it and (this is particularly true if you subscribe to Morrison's fan theory) just pisses on Batman the whole way through, as he is inept, ineffectual and holds a view of the world that we are told is ultimately flawed, foolish, and literally laughable. The only reason the book is even remembered is because Alan Moore wrote it and Barbra Gordon was shot, nearly ruining the character forever. This "shocking" women in refrigerators moment itself becomes memorable and relevant largely because of Kim Yale and John Ostrander being upset about Babs getting crippled and deciding to revive the character as Oracle.

The best thing to come out of the Killing Joke was done by two other writers.
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That synopsis sounds like you literally never even read the story. As was pointed out, the story is exactly the opposite of what you're saying.
 
HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Hold on now, you can't dismiss his opinion entirely. Barbara staying paralyzed is perhaps one of the most important and lingering outcomes from that story. It's one of the few instances in comics that had lasting consequences and shone a spotlight on the disabled.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

HCGLNS said:
Hold on now, you can't dismiss his opinion entirely. Barbara staying paralyzed is perhaps one of the most important and lingering outcomes from that story. It's one of the few instances in comics that had lasting consequences and shone a spotlight on the disabled.
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He said that Barbara Gordon being shot was one of the most terrible things about the story.
 
HCGLNS

HCGLNS

He said that the best thing to come out of the story was done by two others. And that's a measure of how a story impacts a "comic-verse", by how it affects other stories and authors. If it were to have no impact, the other story tellers would put down the book and ignore it, but they didn't they chose to take what had happened and make it part of their own works. That's impact. Sadly, I think this was ignored for the traits laid out for Batman in the comic. It's my belief that it is harder for this to occur in prominent characters as everyone is striving to have this occur for the stories they write themselves and tend to brush off any groundwork laid by other authors.
 
HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Nuh uh, you're like this

No it's a terrible Batman story all about how Joker is right, and Batman's just as insane and wrong as he is. There is nothing heroic about it and (this is particularly true if you subscribe to Morrison's fan theory) just pisses on Batman the whole way through, as he is inept, ineffectual and holds a view of the world that we are told is ultimately flawed, foolish, and literally laughable. The only reason the book is even remembered is because Alan Moore wrote it and Barbra Gordon was shot, nearly ruining the character forever. This "shocking" women in refrigerators moment itself becomes memorable and relevant largely because of Kim Yale and John Ostrander being upset about Babs getting crippled and deciding to revive the character as Oracle.

The best thing to come out of the Killing Joke was done by two other writers.
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And I'm like this

No it's a terrible Batman story all about how Joker is right, and Batman's just as insane and wrong as he is. There is nothing heroic about it and (this is particularly true if you subscribe to Morrison's fan theory) just pisses on Batman the whole way through, as he is inept, ineffectual and holds a view of the world that we are told is ultimately flawed, foolish, and literally laughable. The only reason the book is even remembered is because Alan Moore wrote it and Barbra Gordon was shot, nearly ruining the character forever. This "shocking" women in refrigerators moment itself becomes memorable and relevant largely because of Kim Yale and John Ostrander being upset about Babs getting crippled and deciding to revive the character as Oracle.

The best thing to come out of the Killing Joke was done by two other writers.
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Bowielee

Bowielee

HCGLNS said:
Nuh uh, you're like this



And I'm like this
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So, you agree with him that the only good thing to come out of the comic was Babs being crippled and other writers polishing the crap from an otherwise terrible comic?
because that's what he's saying.
 
HCGLNS

HCGLNS

I'm saying that it is the most enduring thing to come out of the comic and thus the best as sadly the other excellent elements in the comic were ignored so that the next writer to come along could write the great quintessential Batman story.

That was a very long sentence.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

True enough, but the same goes a bit for Bowie. No offense to either meant.
Allen, I don't know why, has been fairly easy to goad into attacking since he's been back, and relatively quick to lash out.
Bowie, you've been quite....vehement in your insistence on being "right" on topics where there really isn't much of a right or wrong side. You tend to fall on the right side ofthings as far as I'm concerned, but in this, for example? It's a comic. Covar, Roosc has his/her/its/their own opinion. I have mine, you have yours. You may find more things in the comic to support your point of view, but claiming you're right and he's wrong for 2 pages on end is a bit persistent. You're trying to prove an opinion on art "wrong". "LHOOQ is art! No, it's a piece of trash! No, it's Art!" - it's a useless discussion, as it's both.

I haven't read the story, nor do I really want to. I will, however, say that you're currently claiming that a story in which it's heavily implied Batman killed someone, is the quintessential Batman story - which is like saying "Man of Steel" is the quintessential Superman story. It may be a great and interesting story about the character and serious problems he's overcome, it may be the best story written with the character, but I doubt it's the most typical, the perfect representative story.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

Bubble181 said:
True enough, but the same goes a bit for Bowie. No offense to either meant.
Allen, I don't know why, has been fairly easy to goad into attacking since he's been back, and relatively quick to lash out.
Bowie, you've been quite....vehement in your insistence on being "right" on topics where there really isn't much of a right or wrong side. You tend to fall on the right side ofthings as far as I'm concerned, but in this, for example? It's a comic. Covar, Roosc has his/her/its/their own opinion. I have mine, you have yours. You may find more things in the comic to support your point of view, but claiming you're right and he's wrong for 2 pages on end is a bit persistent. You're trying to prove an opinion on art "wrong". "LHOOQ is art! No, it's a piece of trash! No, it's Art!" - it's a useless discussion, as it's both.

I haven't read the story, nor do I really want to. I will, however, say that you're currently claiming that a story in which it's heavily implied Batman killed someone, is the quintessential Batman story - which is like saying "Man of Steel" is the quintessential Superman story. It may be a great and interesting story about the character and serious problems he's overcome, it may be the best story written with the character, but I doubt it's the most typical, the perfect representative story.
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Point the first: Covar has 2 posts that I have replied to. Hardly arguing over two pages.

Point the second: It is not heavily implied that Batman killed someone. That's the entire point of this thread. Most people never even considered that was a possibility, apparently.

Point the final: I'm simply stating my opinion, and as far as I can see, it was in a far less caustic way than Covar did, but I'm the one getting shit for it.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

A) You've made 13 posts in a 42-post thread. You may not be arguing directly at one person or another, you're definitely pretty pushing your own opinion pretty hard and treating every other opinion as if it's disagreeing with yours and "fighting back" even when it seems unnecessary.
B) True enough; I may have been guided by your own posts higher up saying it's a "clearly ambiguous" ending and at being surprised how surprised everyone is.
C) Reading back, you're right. Your language is much more aggressive than his. I could argue your way of phrasing things, plus the reply-to-every-post come off as fairly antagonising, but you're right that Covar is far more of a potty mouth and words his opinion more strongly. However, while Covar was attacking the story/writing/author, you attacked Covar. You didn't say "here's why I think the story is about something else", you said he hadn't read it, that he was wrong and, pretty much, "just didn't get it".

Either he's trolling you and you're falling for it, or he happens to have an opinion on some work of art, opposite to yours, and you're flying off the handle over it - I'm not quite sure which.
 
Covar

Covar

I feel like the guy who was messing around with some matches and came back to find the house on fire.

I really do passionately hate the Killing Joke and have no issue with @Bowielee's posts. We just have strong differences of opinions. In other news I do really enjoy Brian Bollands art, although I didn't really appreciate it until I got the really nice Judge Dredd: The Complete Brian Bolland vol 1 collection, which is absolutely stunning.
 
Fun Size

Fun Size

Really, I think the issue here is that what's being debated is an extremely controversial interpretation of a reasonably popular work. I think we all just need to take a step back and focus on something else for a minute.

So, who liked the ending of Lost?
 
Covar

Covar

Fun Size said:
Really, I think the issue here is that what's being debated is an extremely controversial interpretation of a reasonably popular work. I think we all just need to take a step back and focus on something else for a minute.

So, who liked the ending of Lost?
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I didn't see it, but I heard it was about as terrible as a well done steak.
 
Null

Null

Haven't read the story, but to me, one of the cores of Batman's character is that he doesn't give in. The Joker wants to push Batman to kill him, to prove that he's as fallible and breakable as anyone else. He wants Batman to break one of his own ironclad principles. Hell, the page beforehand Commissioner Gordon literally tells Batman - "Bring him in, by the book. Show him our way works!" Granted, it's a weird book when 'arrest by vigilante dressed as a nocturnal flying mammal' is in it, but the point is clear - don't cross the line. So I don't believe that Batman killed the Joker there. That's not my interpretation of it, at any rate.
 
figmentPez

figmentPez

Staff member
From the Batman's speech at the beginning of The Killing Joke:

"I've been thinking lately. About you and me. About what's going to happen to us, in the end. We're going to kill each other, aren't we?.... Perhaps you'll kill me. Perhaps I'll kill you. Perhaps sooner. Perhaps later. I just wanted to know that I'd made a genuine attempt to talk things over and avert that outcome. Just once.... Are you listening to me? It's life and death that I'm discussing here. Maybe my death... ...maybe yours. I don't fully understand why ours should be such a fatal relationship, but I don't want your murder on my... ...hands..."

At this point Batman realizes he's talking to an impostor who has taken Joker's place in jail, but Batman recalls this speech as he's headed off to face the Joker, just before the Joker gives his monologue. At another point in the story, Batman talks about how much he hates that the Joker keeps escaping, and all they can do is hope that he won't get away with anything too terrible this time. In the afterword the artist, Brian Bolland, jokes that he's going to reveal what happened at the end of the book; that "Batman's hand reached out and...." He leaves the sentence unfinished, but I think it's pretty clear that the original intent of the work was to be at least ambiguous, with the possibility that Batman did kill Joker.
 
checkeredhat

checkeredhat

Okay, this and Year One are the ONLY Batman stories I have read. I didn't care for the Killing Joke. I purchased it on the high praises of others and was incredibly disappointed. I have said before though, I think this is largely because as I said, it and Year One (Which, by the way, was excellent) are the only Batman stories I've read. I don't think the Killing Joke is meant for people who are not already diehard Batman fans.

But anyway, how else do you possibly interpret those last panels? And, I mean, it is called the Killing Joke.
 
Frank

Frank

Well, the original title was The Hugging Joke but DC changed it at the last minute to be more edgy. They're really hugging it out there.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

I do have to admit that I misspoke, The Killing Joke isn't the quintessential Batman story, it's the quintessential Joker story.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Huh, I can honestly say I never interpreted that last page as Batman killing the Joker. Regardless of author intent, if it's intended to be ambiguous, they did a really, really poor job of it, because ambiguity would require some hint that Batman killed Joker. I see no hint whatsover in this art that he did. So the laugh stops. It's not uncommon to wind down to a silent panel in a comic story, and that usually doesn't imply the death of any of the characters in the scene. Why should I believe I'm being shown that in this scene?
 
HCGLNS

HCGLNS

And when the Joker breaks out of Arkham within 6 months of the Killing Jokes release to become the Iranian Ambassador to the UN why should you ever really consider it? Now if it was shown that the Joker rose out of the Lazarus pit before getting his cushy job at the UN, thus setting the eventual stage for the realities of the the Red Hood, that would be worth talking about!
 
Covar

Covar

HCGLNS said:
And when the Joker breaks out of Arkham within a 6 months of the Killing Jokes release to become the Iranian Ambassador to the UN why should you ever really consider it? Now if it was shown that the Joke rose out of the Lazarus pit before getting his cushy job at the UN, thus setting the eventual stage for the realities of the the Red Hood, that would be worth talking about!
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Alan Moore doesn't give a shit about other writers or what they're doing. He's like Grant Morrison in that regard.
 
checkeredhat

checkeredhat

GasBandit said:
Uh.... I'm pretty sure the existence of Oracle cemented it firmly as such.
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I said ORIGINALLY. As Covar pointed out, that came later. And yeah, when it's canon and the Joker is alive and well in that canon universe, you obviously have to interpret it a certain way. But my understanding was that it was originally penned as a one-off (Making the Joker death ending plausible).
 
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