USA Federal government: CLOSED

[Dave]

Shake your fist at them some more Dave.

As opposed to....? I have already reached out to all of my senators and representatives and have been handily and completely shut down. And since I live in Nebraska where they will vote for nothing but red, it's really the only thing I can do. Doesn't matter that they are purposely attempting to cause as much damage to the country as they possibly can, I can't do anything until the next election cycle and even then because of the morons in my state it's not even something I can do anything about then.[DOUBLEPOST=1381764444,1381764410][/DOUBLEPOST]I also notice a lack of rebuttal on your part as to why this is a good thing.

 

[strawman]

This is a good thing for the republicans who want to ensure that their shutdown threat can't be weakened.

That's only a good thing if you believe the republican strategy is good.

Since you don't and since none of my other arguments have swayed you, I conclude that there's little point in attempting to rehash them.

As far as whether this tactic is good, politicians use procedure to their benefit every day they are in session. This minor rule change gives them greater power for this fight. It isn't sneaky or underhanded any more than any other rule congress bends, rewrites, or uses when it suits them to do so.

Of course the opposition will paint it and publicize it as slimy, but again it's nothing more than what either side does at certain times to push their own agenda.

 

[Dave]

Shutdown threat?!? What threat? They shut it down and are keeping it shut down ON PURPOSE! Can you still say that this is a democrat shutdown?

 

[Hailey Knight]

We're looking at the threat of global economic recession, potentially depression, if shit doesn't get handled with the debt ceiling soon.

Guess the Tea Party wins after all.

Does anyone have a farm? I'm pretty sure that's going to be the only viable career choice for me once this all goes down and no one needs courts or writing anymore. I'm young, fit, healthy, I don't complain at work, and I do what I'm told.

 

[Dave]

But...but everyone does it so it must be okay, no matter what the consequences are! And since it aligns with their skewed and insane world view, people think this is great! Absolutely amazing.

 

[PatrThom]

I just went over to see if the Songify the News guys have done a take on this yet.
They haven't.


--Patrick

 

[Covar]

But...but everyone does it so it must be okay, no matter what the consequences are! And since it aligns with their skewed and insane world view, people think this is great! Absolutely amazing.

It's only okay when my guy does it. Just like it's only okay for you when your guy does it. Clearly.

 

[Shakey]

Does anyone have a farm? I'm pretty sure that's going to be the only viable career choice for me once this all goes down and no one needs courts or writing anymore. I'm young, fit, healthy, I don't complain at work, and I do what I'm told.

Not so sure about that.
http://www.npr.org/2013/10/14/233790772/s-d-ranchers-struggle-to-get-out-from-under-blizzard

 

[Hailey Knight]

Not so sure about that.
http://www.npr.org/2013/10/14/233790772/s-d-ranchers-struggle-to-get-out-from-under-blizzard

A freak October blizzard earlier this month killed tens of thousands of cattle in South Dakota.
The number of animals is hard to confirm. In part, because the federal agency tasked with tallying livestock losses after a disaster is closed during the partial government shutdown.

 

[strawman]

Shutdown threat?!? What threat? They shut it down and are keeping it shut down ON PURPOSE! Can you still say that this is a democrat shutdown?

This is a republican shutdown due to several years of democratic fiscal mismanagement.

You can continue to push the idea that we are where we are today due to the actions of the republicans, but it simply isn't true. If the democrats worked in a bipartisan manner all those years they controlled everything they wouldn't be experiencing this blowback.

I don't know how it'll end. It would surprise me if the house didn't offer a clean debt limit raise bill for the senate to sign this week, and it would surprise me if the senate or Obama chose not to accept it.

So I don't see the debt limit becoming a problem. The republicans are likely the keep the shutdown going until the democrats back down from their non-negotiable stance, but they probably don't need to force the debt ceiling issue, and in fact due to sequester rules it may not be in their favor to do so.

If they do offer a clean debt ceiling bill, then they will be seen as taking one step toward the dance floor, and if the democrats again assert that they won't talk until the shutdown ends the democrats will be seen as non-reconciliatory.

But this is pure speculation, I haven't even read today's news on the subject. Obama was pretty clear in last weeks meeting, though, that Ryan had to go back and get the republicans to move, but Obama and the democrats were still not willing to discuss anything until the shutdown ends.

So, stalemate, still.

 

[Shakey]

And the farm bill that would help them to recover some of the loss is seemingly going nowhere. Lovely.[DOUBLEPOST=1381766910,1381766685][/DOUBLEPOST]

So I don't see the debt limit becoming a problem. The republicans are likely the keep the shutdown going until the democrats back down from their non-negotiable stance, but they probably don't need to force the debt ceiling issue, and in fact due to sequester rules it may not be in their favor to do so.

They have said they will be willing to negotiate. All they have to do is reopen the government for however long they want with a clean bill. They could open it for to weeks while they negotiated if they wanted.

 

[Hailey Knight]

This is a republican shutdown due to several years of democratic fiscal mismanagement.

You can continue to push the idea that we are where we are today due to the actions of the republicans, but it simply isn't true. If the democrats worked in a bipartisan manner all those years they controlled everything they wouldn't be experiencing this blowback.

So, it's revenge.

 

[jwhouk]

Regarding parliamentary procedure: there's ALWAYS a way of getting around something like that.

 

[GasBandit]

So, it's revenge.

In the same way that pressing the brakes is revenge against the accelerator.

 

[PatrThom]

In the same way that pressing the brakes is revenge against the accelerator.

You've driven with my father, then?

--Patrick

 

[strawman]

They have said they will be willing to negotiate. All they have to do is reopen the government for however long they want with a clean bill. They could open it for to weeks while they negotiated if they wanted.

I'm pretty sure they floated that idea and were told that it wouldn't be accepted because Obama wasn't willing to negotiate with the threat of a shutdown hanging over his head either.

Pretty much the only way the democrats are willing to "negotiate" is when the republicans have absolutely no power.

Go figure.

 

[Shakey]

I'm pretty sure they floated that idea and were told that it wouldn't be accepted because Obama wasn't willing to negotiate with the threat of a shutdown hanging over his head either.

Pretty much the only way the democrats are willing to "negotiate" is when the republicans have absolutely no power.

Go figure.

No, they would still have a threat of shut down. Obama has specifically said, pass a clean bill that funds the government and raises the debt ceiling for however long you want and I will sign it and negotiate for a longer term deal. They could do it for 2 weeks or a month, meaning the threat of a shutdown will still be there.

 

[GasBandit]

No, they would still have a threat of shut down. Obama has specifically said, pass a clean bill that funds the government and raises the debt ceiling for however long you want and I will sign it and negotiate for a longer term deal. They could do it for 2 weeks or a month, meaning the threat of a shutdown will still be there.

The threat of the shutdown was there for a long time before the shutdown. It didn't help. Hell, even the actual shutdown isn't doing much to budge democrats.

My money's still on Republicans caving first though.

 

[Shakey]

The threat of the shutdown was there for a long time before the shutdown. It didn't help. Hell, even the actual shutdown isn't doing much to budge democrats.

My money's still on Republicans caving first though.

They won't budge on health care, that's for certain. They have said they'd be willing to look at spending once the government is running again.

 

[GasBandit]

They won't budge on health care, that's for certain. They have said they'd be willing to look at spending once the government is running again.

A transparent platitude that goes nowhere and does nothing. They all howl over how horrible the sequester cuts are, when the reality is we need something akin to the Sequester times 50. Even with it, government spending went up by a further quarter trillion that year.

 

[Shakey]

A transparent platitude that goes nowhere and does nothing. They all howl over how horrible the sequester cuts are, when the reality is we need something akin to the Sequester times 50. Even with it, government spending went up by a further quarter trillion that year.

Except it's something the Republicans want, and they offered it. Yet they keep howling that the Dems aren't offering anything. All while blocking a vote that they know will pass with support from their own side. Hell, they even had to change the rules to make sure no one else could bring it up because they know it will pass.

This isn't about whether or not what they do will make a difference in the budget. No one wants any real changes. They just want to make it look like there are.

 

[GasBandit]

Except it's something the Republicans want, and they offered it. Yet they keep howling that the Dems aren't offering anything.

Because the offer is "we'll talk about it later, after you give us what we want and you no longer have any leverage." That's not an offer, that's a gaily painted ultimatum.

 

[Shakey]

Because the offer is "we'll talk about it later, after you give us what we want and you no longer have any leverage." That's not an offer, that's a gaily painted ultimatum.

There is still leverage. If they only open the government for a couple weeks or a month, it's still on the table. It still has to be worked through, otherwise we face another shut down.

 

[Hailey Knight]

They won't budge on health care, that's for certain. They have said they'd be willing to look at spending once the government is running again.

Some Republicans have said they're not aiming at the healthcare anymore.

I'm not sure the apparent leaders of either side are even certain they're their side's leader.

 

[GasBandit]

There is still leverage. If they only open the government for a couple weeks or a month, it's still on the table. It still has to be worked through, otherwise we face another shut down.

I don't think so. As you note, the political will of the rank and file republicans is already broken and the shutdown is only kept by a procedural hurdle. Once the shutdown is over, I don't think that there will be enough solidarity to do this again for quite a while.[DOUBLEPOST=1381771981,1381771945][/DOUBLEPOST]

Some Republicans have said they're not aiming at the healthcare anymore.

I'm not sure the apparent leaders of either side are even certain they're their side's leader.

Yeah, it seems the argument has shifted from health care to spending in general.

 

[Shakey]

I don't think so. As you note, the political will of the rank and file republicans is already broken and the shutdown is only kept by a procedural hurdle. Once the shutdown is over, I don't think that there will be enough solidarity to do this again for quite a while.[DOUBLEPOST=1381771981,1381771945][/DOUBLEPOST]
Yeah, it seems the argument has shifted from health care to spending in general.

The same procedure they're using now to prevent a vote on a budget will still be there in two weeks or a month, so if Boehner doesn't like it he can decide not to bring it up for a vote. There is no reason the government should be shutdown still, other than Republicans want it closed.

 

[GasBandit]

The same procedure they're using now to prevent a vote on a budget will still be there in two weeks or a month, so if Boehner doesn't like it he can decide not to bring it up for a vote. There is no reason the government should be shutdown still, other than Republicans want it closed.

Because there was absolutely nothing the democrats could have done, right? No bills sent their way they could have approved?

 

[Shakey]

Because there was absolutely nothing the democrats could have done, right? No bills sent their way they could have approved?

You mean funding only the parts of the government that make good headlines? That's a good way to drag this on even longer.

 

[GasBandit]

You mean funding only the parts of the government that make good headlines? That's a good way to drag this on even longer.

If the parts of the government that are necessary to keep us out of default and provide critical services to the citizenry aren't shut down, does it really matter if those that don't are?

 

[Shakey]

If the parts of the government that are necessary to keep us out of default and provide critical services to the citizenry aren't shut down, does it really matter if those that don't are?

Just because they aren't critical, doesn't mean they aren't needed. So yes, it does matter.

 

[Hailey Knight]

If the parts of the government that are necessary to keep us out of default and provide critical services to the citizenry aren't shut down, does it really matter if those that don't are?

Just a note, the critical services are still running, yes, but because their payment isn't considered a critical service, they aren't getting paid for performing them. (Since you can't see me: my hand is raised.) The government isn't saving money this way, just building up debt towards its employees.

 

[Covar]

You mean funding only the parts of the government that make good headlines? That's a good way to drag this on even longer.

I'm reminded of an episode of Hoarders.

 

[Krisken]

So, it's revenge.

Well bipartisan means "Fuck you, you don't get what you want, but I get what I want", apparently.

 

[strawman]

The same procedure they're using now to prevent a vote on a budget will still be there in two weeks or a month

I very much doubt that. The instant the logjam is cleared you can bet there will be new laws enacted which prevent this from easily happening again. It could happen, but the opposing side would have to work harder at it. For instance, the little loophole they closed right before shutting the govt down - when it's re-opened I doubt it'll be so easily closed again.

Besides which, do you honestly believe the democrats are going to give any concessions, at all, once they get the government open again? What makes you think so?

 

[strawman]

Besides, Obama and the democrats have already rejected any talk about bills that are short term. So now the republicans are saying, ok, let's put a six month debt limit increase in place. Only the democrats are rejecting that too.

You see, in January bipartisan agreed upon sequestration cuts take place automatically, and the democrats want to repeal them before they take place.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._negotiations_democrats_want_a_deal_that.html

The democrats are busy trying to thread a needle to get everything they want without giving the republicans anything they want.

They won't accept any proposal from the republicans that is clean unless it also fits their timeframe so they have the best chance at repealing the upcoming budget cuts.

Those who claim the democrats are innocent in this current scuffle, and pretend that things are very simple are not really paying attention.