And it just keeps coming,
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/health/world-health-breastfeeding-ecuador-trump.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/health/world-health-breastfeeding-ecuador-trump.html
figmentPez
Staff member
That is absolutely revolting. This is mustache twirling levels of corporate villainy. This is why I still attempt to boycott Nestle.
Fucking unreal. Everything must bow to profit, regardless of sense or benefit.
Remember how Trump never asked Comey to lay off Flynn?
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/oo...ey-give-flynn-break-even-though-trump-denies/
Stupid Watergate indeed.
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/oo...ey-give-flynn-break-even-though-trump-denies/
Stupid Watergate indeed.
figmentPez
Staff member
So, essentially, his argument is that it's not obstruction of justice if you try to obstruct justice and fail.
I don’t feel comfortable weighing in on the WHO process and what happened, but I do want to point out that the stigma faced by mothers who cannot feed their babies breast milk is not just real but surprisingly significant.
We need to be careful that while breast feeding is promoted as optimal, those who don’t for whatever personal reason are not left with fewer choices or made to believe they are bad parents.
We need to be careful that while breast feeding is promoted as optimal, those who don’t for whatever personal reason are not left with fewer choices or made to believe they are bad parents.
figmentPez
Staff member
Wanna know what's also real? The history of formula companies using grossly unethical practices to promote formula use in developing countries. Selling powdered formula in areas they know don't have a clean water supply, or any way to properly prepare the formula. Giving "free" formula to new mothers just long enough to get them to stop producing milk on their own, and then cutting off the freebies. That, and so much more, is historical fact and stuff like that continues to this day. There is a reason the WHO wanted to put wording censuring the inappropriate advertising of formula in the document, and that's why so much pressure was put forth opposing it. It's about money. Corporate greed, plain and simple.
Your argument is just a smokescreen. If formula companies ever stop inappropriately marketing their products in a predatory fashion, then we can talk about the stigma towards mothers who have to use formula.
[redacted by Dave]
I’m on mobile so I can’t make this all red & stuff, but Jesus Christ, man.
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Cajungal
Staff member
@Tiger Tsang That was incredibly rude. You shouldn't leave that up.
I don't understand but I probably don't want to.
”Broodmare” is a term for a female horse whose only purpose or value is to bear children. So he just implied that Steinman’s wife has no purpose or value beyond giving birth to more children.
Folk who can't breastfeed naturally are a minority and while they shouldn't be stigmatized, it shouldn't be at the expense of promoting what has time and again been proven to be the most healthy way to feed a baby, just to line Nestle's corrupt and villainous pockets.
That's vile.
I'd like to think we're all capable of disagreeing with each other and even when at the point of attacks and insults can still leave each other's families out of it.
No, no, his argument is that it's not obstruction if you did the bare minimum at trying to be subtle about it... if you don't scream IWANNAOBSTRUCTJUSTICE!!!! while you're doing it, it doesn't count.
That's too broad for me. The reason should be a good one, not "whatever".
And who gets to decide what constitutes a "good"reason? Old white men?
I know women who don't breastfeed because of their career. I know others who don't because of their health. And others who can't. And those who can, but who probably shouldn't for the health of the baby.
So, which are good reasons? Which off those should carry a card saying they're allowed to breastfeed, while others aren't?
The formula industry is a vile one and one you be mindful of; they're aggressive and they've tried all kinds of vile shit, meddling in scientific studies, targeting the third world, you name it.
Formula is also, still, literally a life saver for many and incredibly important for many others. Gating or restricting access probably isn't a good idea, yes?
Of course, this whole discussion is hilarious in a country where abortion and “personal choice” is held more closely to the heart than the life of a child. If you complain about nestle lobbying and profits then you should take a good hard look at planned parenthood lobbying and their profits.
As if this were a zero sum game, and we can't be compassionate and considerate as we attack seemingly larger problems.
But again, I can't really speak towards the actual goings on, I'll have to take your word for it that it's better to reduce nutrition choice and stigmatize women further in countries full of people you don't know.
*Pun intended
It's funny to see you say, "It's a minority, so we're going to set aside their problems until we solve my problems, and if my solution hurts them more - well it sucks* to be them!"
As if this were a zero sum game, and we can't be compassionate and considerate as we attack seemingly larger problems.
But again, I can't really speak towards the actual goings on, I'll have to take your word for it that it's better to reduce nutrition choice and stigmatize women further in countries full of people you don't know.
Can we apply that same requirement to abortion? Or are you only interested in controlling diet, and not murder?
*Pun intended
Holy shit shut the fuck up.
You're right. The difference is you believe the mission statement of one is a noble goal for humanity and thus you're ok with whatever they do in order to promote your beliefs worldwide.
Whereas I see them both as greedy corporations manipulating political bodies for their own purposes.
Whereas I see them both as greedy corporations manipulating political bodies for their own purposes.
Look at all these dudes talking about women shit again. 
Abortion: Valid choice. Should not be a punishment for a woman being sexually active. Planned Parenthood does a TONNE more than abortions. Blah, blah, blah. Lay off it or offer better protection to low income women so we don't get pregnant in the first place/have better education about their own bodies/educate men that they have a responsibility to prevent pregnancy as well.
Breast feeding: Jet was formula fed because of his lip. Formula was a life saver...but also my last option after REALLY struggling to breastfeed him and then find time to pump. Alice was exclusively breast fed and, I tell ya, I was HOUNDED by formula mailers and busy bodies tellnig me I would make her a lesbian (???) by breast feeding her. Formula is a valid option...but I tell ya what, NO ONE ever commented to me about Jet having formula the same way I was hounded about Alice breast feeding.
I don't have a point here. It just annoys me when there's no chicks involved in a convo about our bodies and experiences.
Abortion: Valid choice. Should not be a punishment for a woman being sexually active. Planned Parenthood does a TONNE more than abortions. Blah, blah, blah. Lay off it or offer better protection to low income women so we don't get pregnant in the first place/have better education about their own bodies/educate men that they have a responsibility to prevent pregnancy as well.
Breast feeding: Jet was formula fed because of his lip. Formula was a life saver...but also my last option after REALLY struggling to breastfeed him and then find time to pump. Alice was exclusively breast fed and, I tell ya, I was HOUNDED by formula mailers and busy bodies tellnig me I would make her a lesbian (???) by breast feeding her. Formula is a valid option...but I tell ya what, NO ONE ever commented to me about Jet having formula the same way I was hounded about Alice breast feeding.
I don't have a point here. It just annoys me when there's no chicks involved in a convo about our bodies and experiences.
Dave
Staff member
See this is where you are wrong. Feelings have fuck all to do with it. PP is non-profit and does a shitload of good for women's health. Nestle is just an abnormally greedy corporation. The fact that you put them in the same boat says a lot more about you than it does them.
Would it change yours? I'd bet yes.
Eh....This doesn't look so much like a discussion as two teams of face-painted flag-waving football fans yelling at each other.
Let's go watch the video of a one year old child testify in court.
I mean...that's this entire thread. It's been a shitshow since page one.
I hope so. It should clearly telegraph "Abortion is murder". If a non-profit corporation started up advocating for the rights of those who want to kill kittens and puppies rather than adopting them out to families, I'd hope you'd ignore the tax exempt status and focus on the outcome and impact.
Thus the only difference between the two is your promotion of abortion. I'd have no problem with Planned Parenthood if they dropped abortion services and abortion advocacy.
Please google "Trump abortion history" - a flip-flop here would be unsurprising (Iago: I might have a heart attack and die from not surprise!), but it wouldn't change my position. It would incense his base and those who voted while holding their noses because they knew supreme court justices were in the balance. (Remember - even with that at stake, I didn't vote for trump)
I'm not sure what "act like we're upset" means. Every time Trump rubs two words together the entire left has a conniption fit that would make a two-year-old blush.
At this point, the world seemingly has gone numb from outrage, and it's hard to pick out the real outrage from the "act".
Have some George Carlin to chew on...
Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.
Conservatives don't give a shit about you until you reach "military age". Then they think you are just fine. Just what they've been looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Pro-life... pro-life... These people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors! What kind of pro-life is that? What, they'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it. They're not pro-life. You know what they are? They're anti-woman. Simple as it gets, anti-woman. They don't like them. They don't like women. They believe a woman's primary role is to function as a brood mare for the state.
Pro-life... You don't see many of these white anti-abortion women volunteering to have any black fetuses transplanted into their uteruses, do you? No, you don't see them adopting a whole lot of crack babies, do you? No, that might be something Christ would do. And, you won't see a lot of these pro-life people dousing themselves in kerosene and lighting themselves on fire. You know, morally committed religious people in South Vietnam knew how to stage a goddamn demonstration, didn't they?! They knew how to put on a fucking protest. Light yourself on FIRE!! C'mon, you moral crusaders, let's see a little smoke. To match that fire in your belly.
Here's another question I have: how come when it's us, it's an abortion, and when it's a chicken, it's an omelette? Are we so much better than chickens all of a sudden? When did this happen, that we passed chickens in goodness? Name six ways we're better than chickens... See, nobody can do it! You know why? 'Cuz chickens are decent people. You don't see chickens hanging around in drug gangs, do you? No, you don't see a chicken strapping some guy to a chair and hooking up his nuts to a car battery, do you? When's the last chicken you heard about came home from work and beat the shit out of his hen, huh? Doesn't happen. 'Cuz chickens are decent people.
But let's get back to this abortion shit. Now, is a fetus a human being? This seems to be the central question. Well, if a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them? If a fetus is a human being, how come when there's a miscarriage they don't have a funeral? If a fetus is a human being, how come people say "we have two children and one on the way" instead of saying "we have three children?" People say life begins at conception, I say life began about a billion years ago and it's a continuous process. Continuous, just keeps rolling along. Rolling, rolling, rolling along.
And say you know something? Listen, you can go back further than that. What about the carbon atoms? Hah? Human life could not exist without carbon. So is it just possible that maybe we shouldn't be burning all this coal? Just looking for a little consistency here in these anti-abortion arguments. See the really hardcore people will tell you life begins at fertilization. Fertilization, when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Which is usually a few moments after the man says "Gee, honey, I was going to pull out but the phone rang and it startled me." Fertilization.
But even after the egg is fertilized, it's still six or seven days before it reaches the uterus and pregnancy begins, and not every egg makes it that far. Eighty percent of a woman's fertilized eggs are rinsed and flushed out of her body once a month during those delightful few days she has. They wind up on sanitary napkins, and yet they are fertilized eggs. So basically what these anti-abortion people are telling us is that any woman who's had more than more than one period is a serial killer! Consistency. Consistency. Hey, hey, if they really want to get serious, what about all the sperm that are wasted when the state executes a condemned man, one of these pro-life guys who's watching cums in his pants, huh? Here's a guy standing over there with his jockey shorts full of little Vinnies and Debbies, and nobody's saying a word to the guy. Not every ejaculation deserves a name.
Now, speaking of consistency, Catholics, which I was until I reached the age of reason, Catholics and other Christians are against abortions, and they're against homosexuals. Well who has less abortions than homosexuals?! Leave these fucking people alone, for Christ sake! Here is an entire class of people guaranteed never to have an abortion! And the Catholics and Christians are just tossing them aside! You'd think they'd make natural allies. Go look for consistency in religion. And speaking of my friends the Catholics, when John Cardinal O'Connor of New York and some of these other Cardinals and Bishops have experienced their first pregnancies and their first labor pains and they've raised a couple of children on minimum wage, then I'll be glad to hear what they have to say about abortion. I'm sure it'll be interesting. Enlightening, too. But, in the meantime what they ought to be doing is telling these priests who took a vow of chastity to keep their hands off the altar boys! Keep your hands to yourself, Father! You know? When Jesus said "Suffer the little children come unto me", that's not what he was talking about!
So you know what I tell these anti-abortion people? I say "Hey. Hey. If you think a fetus is more important that a woman, try getting a fetus to wash the shit stains out of your underwear. For no pay and no pension." I tell them "Think of an abortion as term limits. That's all it is. Biological term limits.
I meant a public change in opinion. "Abortions for me, not for thee" from the anti-abortion people is a cliche at this point. I guarantee you that some people you know that are vehemently anti-abortion have either had one or facilitated one while still opposing it.
People with money don't want to lose power, so they use their money to purchase politicians to protect their assets. Corporations have adopted this as well. Resulting in a society where the representatives of the people work against them instead of for them. To achieve their goals of maintaining power the rich have attacked the education system and monopolized the transmission of information, resulting in people who are unable to understand the truth is they are able to find it. This allows for greater sway for the political servants as an uninformed populous does not seek critical issues but relies soley on emotions.
This is typical of most nations.
The only new thing is that outside nations have seized upon this and got a puppet elected to the office of president. Who has thus far done nothing for his country except dimish its once great influence.
All the while the rest of the politicians continue their proxy war for the rich.
You know, I really wasn't going to becauseLook at all these dudes talking about women shit again.
I don't have a point here. It just annoys me when there's no chicks involved in a convo about our bodies and experiences.
But you're right, so I'll add my 2 cents.
I'll say I 100% agree with your statement about PP, and I'll add that it also provides cancer and disease detection for both men and women who cannot afford such things from regular doctors, not to mention information on breast feeding, formula, etc. so people can continue to parent the children they already have. You know, that most vulnerable population we're current talking about being taken advantage of by corporate greed and misinformation. That other 97% of things PP does isn't sitting around asking "If you're not here for an abortion, why are you here?"
As for formula, I'd say the best option is to make both it and breast feeding instruction as easy to obtain as possible. As "natural" is breast feeding is, it is not always easy or instinctual. I am disgusted we take advantage of women at one of the most vulnerable times of their life and try to monetize it. I was ready to breastfeed Li'l Z from the start; before I went to the hospital, I had pumps, back-up bags, and everything I thought I needed at the ready. I had been given some free samples of formula from other exams, but I put those on the back shelf just in case. And then the day came, and right off the bat, breasts at the ready. And it was a nightmare. I learned my nipples were short and hard for Li'l Z to latch. They gave me plastic shields I had to wear to help him. I had a new consultant coming in every time to change how I held/fed/latched him, in addition to everything I had tried to learn before hand. I was confused, tired, and after 48 hours of doing this hard, confusing dance every 2-3 hours, with no full sleep, sometimes having him suck for a 1/2 hour at a time per breast until I was already cracked and bleeding and in horrible plan, the pediatrician comes in the morning of my release to tell me Li'l Z was jaundice and he hadn't been getting enough milk, and I'd have to supplement.
I was alone in that hospital room, and I sobbed. I felt like a complete failure. The one thing I was supposed to be "easily" and "naturally" for my child I failed at, and he was suffering, and I was a shit mom after 48 hours.
And for the next three months, my life was a hell of trying to feed him, struggling with nipple shields, drinking teas and foods that were supposed to promote milk development constantly hooking myself up to the breast pumps on the miracle chance that MAYBE I could get 2 oz., and feeling ashamed that I had to use the "poison" formula because "breast is best" and "the only good thing for your developing kid". I couldn't even ask family for help because both my grandmothers didn't breast feed, neither did my mother, and my only aunt who even tried with her first kid ran into the same problems I did. After 3 months, my supply stopped entirely. I was both relieved that I could finally enjoy my time with my infant son without feeling like a broken milking machine, and still had the shadow over me still, whispering in my ear that I wasn't doing what was "best" for my child.
So I go back to my previous statement that I am disgusted this is a monetized issue. This is a issue that from both ends, you need healthy parents to raise healthy kids. Everyone, especially the poorest and most vulnerable, need easy access to help feed and care for their bodies, and assistance when things don't go as planned. Birth control, formula, and breast feeding aid should be at little or no cost, covered entirely by a universal insurance or similar plan for the sake of kids. If we want strong, healthy adults, we have to be able to provide them with good, PLANNED starts, and NOT treat them as a business strategy.