Canadian Election?

[BoringMetaphor]

This is a thread about Canadian politics.

.. be warned..

Do you think we should have an election this fall?

I think yes, but I am not really a big fan of the current government for many reasons. Number 1 being that they seem very willing to go to great lengths to control information, bully people, and generally be conniving, simply to stay in power.

I suppose you could reply that this is the nature of being the governing party and of politics, but I hardly think normalcy is justification for bad governance.

 

[Espy]

You guys have elections too? Well, thats cool. I figured it was just a "Whoever hikes to the top of that mountain over there gets to be president" type thing.

I kid, I kid.
Seriously, for those of us who aren't familiar with it, could you tell us whats going on right now?

 

[strawman]

Do you think we should have an election this fall?

Of course. Any time to keep the current people on their toes, and bring fresh blood into the process is going to improve things - if only temporarily.

-Adam

 

[Adam]

I hope not. I suffer from electile dysfunction.

 

[strawman]

I hope not. I suffer from electile dysfunction.

You need votagra - the only FDA approved treatment for hanging chad disorders.

-Adam

 

[BoringMetaphor]

Right now Canada has had a minority government since January 2006. What this means is that the Prime Minister's party (the Conservative Party of Canada) does not have enough members in the House of Commons (the parliament) to outvote the other parties. Out of 308 seats, the Conservatives only have 143. The Liberals (essentially the other governing party of Canada) have 77. The Bloc Quebecois (BQ), a Quebec based party formed to advance the cause of French Canadian seperatism has 48 (all from Quebec). The New Democratic Party (NDP), our social democratic party, have 36. There is 1 independant, and 3 vacant seats.

The Liberal party leader, an academic named Michael Ignatieff has never led the party in an election, as he only became leader as of December 2008. But he has announced that he is seeking to topple the Conservative minority government through a vote of no confidence in the House of Commons. If the government loses the vote, a possibility since the other parties outnumber them, an election is called. Essentially losing a vote reflects that the House of Commons (read: the people) do not have confidence in the government, so the Governor General (Head of state, representing the Queen) will usually call an election so that the government can regain the confidence of the House (the people).

The important thing to know is that we have had 3 elections since 2004, and have four in 5 years is expensive and it seems as if they dont solve anything. Since nothing changes, voter apathy is rising. No party wants to be the party which causes another election, but the Liberals think they can gain seats, so they are pressing for it, saying the Cons are causing it by not governing properly. This puts the other two parties (NDP and the BQ) in a very awkward position, as they are fairly left wing, of supporting the Conservative government. In the same way, the Cons have to pander to the left wing since the Liberals want an election. As usual, each party is trying to get the most of it, while betraying principles left and right.

 

[strawman]

See this wouldn't happen if you had a two party system.



-Adam

 

[BoringMetaphor]

Essentially we do have a two party system. Only the Liberals and Conservatives (in whatever form they existed at the time) have ever governed Canada. I prefer our system to the American one, simply because I believe that it results in stronger representation for the greater variety of people, and I think that improves our democracy.

 

[strawman]

Essentially we do have a two party system. Only the Liberals and Conservatives (in whatever form they existed at the time) have ever governed Canada. I prefer our system to the American one, simply because I believe that it results in stronger representation for the greater variety of people, and I think that improves our democracy.

No doubt. The duplicrats and replicons here work so hard to prevent party fragmentation. "A vote for nader is a vote for bush" and so forth.

Otherwise we'd have several other parties.

-Adam

 

[Rob King]

I don't want another election. I don't particularly care for the Conservatives, but I'm sick of all the dicking around.

I'm actually really disappointed that the coalition didn't go through. Not entirely surprised, since it's a new and scary concept to the average Canadian, but it would get the Conservatives out, and we'd probably have a good few years of governance: Two parties sharing the power means they're keeping each-other in check, as well as watering down some of their more wingnut ideas.

 

[BoringMetaphor]

The coalition Rob is talking about is what ended the brief leadership of the previous Liberal Leader, Stephane Dion. There was talk of ending the Con government's recent electoral win from Oct 2008 due to their supposedly abysmal handling of the economic crisis. Dion and the Liberals had an agreement that the NDP and BQ would support them, so even though the Liberals did not have the largest party in the House, they would have the support of the majority of the House. In theory, the Governor General could have dissolved the Con government and asked Dion to form a government. This did not happen, instead the Prime Minister prorogued parliament (suspending it?) and putting off a potential no confidence vote for a couple of months. The coalition quicky fell apart.

I dont know. Dion proved every pundit right by his completely disorganised and lacklustre showing in December as a leader. I would not have wanted him to be leader of our nation.

 

[rabbitgod]

Liberal Leader, Stephane Dion.

Celine's sister?




Bam! That's on two levels.

 

[Heavan]

I'm Albertan. What do you think my opinion is?

GO CONSERVATIVES!

 

[Rob King]

The coalition Rob is talking about is what ended the brief leadership of the previous Liberal Leader, Stephane Dion. There was talk of ending the Con government's recent electoral win from Oct 2008 due to their supposedly abysmal handling of the economic crisis. Dion and the Liberals had an agreement that the NDP and BQ would support them, so even though the Liberals did not have the largest party in the House, they would have the support of the majority of the House. In theory, the Governor General could have dissolved the Con government and asked Dion to form a government. This did not happen, instead the Prime Minister prorogued parliament (suspending it?) and putting off a potential no confidence vote for a couple of months. The coalition quicky fell apart.

Well, the coalition would have been the largest party, because a coalition would function as one party made up of the Liberals and NDP. Between the Liberals and NDP, it wasn't just a matter of 'support.' But the coalition wouldn't have a majority then, and they were at risk of a non-confidence vote then. That's where the Bloc comes in: The Bloc pledged to support a coalition in confidence votes for a period of a year, but not become part of the coalition.

I dont know. Dion proved every pundit right by his completely disorganised and lacklustre showing in December as a leader. I would not have wanted him to be leader of our nation.

I liked Dion, to be honest, but not in a 'He's a politician I can respect' way. I loved his accent. The only reason I wanted the coalition really, was to give the NDP a bigger piece of the pie.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

I'm sick of Harper. That should be no surprise as I'm a lonnie lefty. But I'm really rather moderate and supportive of the party in power as the will of the majority (Harris in Ontario is my exception; the asshole).

What I dislike about Harper was his insistence at the start of this recession that there was no recession. Either he was outright lying (as opposed to political truth-bending), or he doesn't know anything about the economy. Each scenario makes him a bad leader.

 

[Krisken]

You guys have elections?

Just kidding. Vote the shit out of that thing!

 

[Heavan]

I'm going to vote green unless someone can convince me to do otherwise. I really hope you can convince me to do otherwise.

I can do it! If you vote Conservative, there's a better chance Alberta won't get screwed over by the Liberals. And this isn't like an American Republican fearing that the Democrats will take away their guns and let the terrorists win or whatever. Alberta has been the target of well documented screw-jobs from the Liberals. Things like the National Energy Program pretty much killed Albertan prosperity for a decade. Oh, but that was thirty years ago, you say. That wouldn't happen now.

Oh, but look, now the Liberals want to screw us again by limiting pollution because of climate change, ruining the tar sands. Hell no. My one vote won't be put toward letting that happen.

 

[Frank]

Yeah, I'm pretty torn as an Albertan. I am a lefty in every sense of the word but I do not like how the Liberal's view of Canada starts at the Manitoba/Ontario border and ends at the Ontario/Quebec border.

 

[Rob King]

What I dislike about Harper was his insistence at the start of this recession that there was no recession. Either he was outright lying (as opposed to political truth-bending), or he doesn't know anything about the economy. Each scenario makes him a bad leader.

Isn't Harper an economist? During the last election, my cousin was all about 'Who would you rather run the country during a recession, an economist or ... whatever the hell Dion is."

I responded that I'd like the economist, provided he hadn't been dropped on his head.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

My answer to that question, Rob, would be "the person who acknowledges the recession exists."

Yeah, I'm pretty torn as an Albertan. I am a lefty in every sense of the word but I do not like how the Liberal's view of Canada starts at the Manitoba/Ontario border and ends at the Ontario/Quebec border.

The funny thing here, Frankie, is that Ontario seemed to get ignored by the Chretien Liberals even while we kept handing them pretty much every seat in our province

There's some damn good evidence that we got shafted by them, too: We're no longer a "have" province - and weren't even before the recession, which was bound to hit us near-hardest since we're heavy into the manufacturing and financial sectors.

 

[BoringMetaphor]

Doesn't every province think they get ignored by the federal government?

I guess I would say you should vote as a Canadian, not as an Albertan. I mean, have some pride man.

And the idea that we should mine the oil sands is ludicrous. I mean, just insane. Not only is it environmentally a bad decision, it affects our global reputation. Harper's ministers are laughed at by other nations.

Which affects our foreign policy, which is generally focused on being conciliatory middle power who can resolve disputes. If other countries think we are full of shit, we really need to choose a new policy direction there, or have domestic policy which is respected.

There isn't really another policy direction for us to go in beside "has been" power or USA lackey. So.. I want the oil sand developments stopped. Along with abunch of other things.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Doesn't every province think they get ignored by the federal government?

Yes.

But I can understand why Canadians outside Ontario could think the Chretien Liberals had to be doing something big for us since they kept sweeping the province. Were the Liberals doing something big for us?

Nope. They kept sweeping the province because the right-wing vote kept splitting between the Reform and Conservative parties.

 

[AshburnerX]

And the idea that we should mine the oil sands is ludicrous. I mean, just insane. Not only is it environmentally a bad decision, it affects our global reputation. Harper's ministers are laughed at by other nations.

Yes, because keeping your country looking beautiful should be more important than allowing it to mitigate it's dependency on foreign oil. Your children will thank you when they are sucking at the teat of the Saudi's like us Americans.

As for your global reputation... if your worried about what Europe thinks of you, you really need to get your priorities in order. Europe is self absorbed and utterly out of touch with the reality of developing countries, who are forced into polluting in order to keep pace with more established countries in the West, as well as the Western Nation's need to become self-sufficient in their energy concerns.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Yes, because keeping your country looking beautiful should be more important than allowing it to mitigate it's dependency on foreign oil. Your children will thank you when they are sucking at the teat of the Saudi's like us Americans.

It might very well be more important to keep our country looking beautiful. Getting oil out of the oil sands is a dirty, dirty business. It's also very expensive.

We can make some money off it right now and create a shit-tonne of pollution doing so, or we can buy relatively cleaner foreign oil and make our money elsewhere.

Going with the latter, we still won't be dependent on foreign oil since we'd have the oilsands as a reserve for future exploitation; and at that time we might even be able to get at with cheaper and cleaner methods developed during the time between now and then. We also run the risk that the need for oil won't exist before we can exploit it, though.

Going with the former, we make the profits now.

I could argue either way is preferable. Also, there's more oil in Canada than just the oilsands stuff and we certainly are drilling it out.

 

[BoringMetaphor]

Yes, because keeping your country looking beautiful should be more important than allowing it to mitigate it's dependency on foreign oil. Your children will thank you when they are sucking at the teat of the Saudi's like us Americans.

As for your global reputation... if your worried about what Europe thinks of you, you really need to get your priorities in order. Europe is self absorbed and utterly out of touch with the reality of developing countries, who are forced into polluting in order to keep pace with more established countries in the West, as well as the Western Nation's need to become self-sufficient in their energy concerns.

It's not about beauty, it's about environmental degradation and its impact on the land. Where people and animals live, and my children will some day live.

And since you are American, I can understand if you don't understand Canadian foreign policy. But we really do need to care what other countries think of us. It's the basis of us being successful at what we do, which is try to stay out of the way so no one is pissed at us. Ideally, we can be the middle man. Im not saying I think Europe know what's going on or anything, but I am saying we shouldnt shit on our lawn in broad daylight. When our neighbours look over and wonder what the fuck we are doing, we're not going to do well at the Neighbourhood watch meeting next week.

To address your point about developing nations - I really dont have an answer for that. If I did, I would be running for government or working for them, I hope. This is not simply a European problem though, but affects every country which is currently on top.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

Maybe a better illustration: Canada refused to go to war in Iraq. Consequently, we went to war in Afghanistan because America said: We understand you dont want to go to war in Iraq with us, but instead you will have to commit your forces to the Afghanistan mission.

So we did. Not necessarily because we thought it was a great idea, or because we thought we could help out Afghans, but because it was our obligation to our ally. One act took away goodwill, and another built it up again. Despite what the media or some radicals might have said, we ultimately came out in the same place we started, even though we refused to fight in the battle where we were needed more.

 

[Rob King]

I could argue either way is preferable. Also, there's more oil in Canada than just the oilsands stuff and we certainly are drilling it out.

This. Newfoundland is seeing a lot of development based on oil. In fact, we became a 'Have' province a short while back based on it. Now ... I think we slipped back into 'have not' with the recession and all that, but we are very close to the line.

Regarding Canada's reputation in Europe ... as far as I'm concerned, Europe can go suck a dick. We have a major industry here in Newfoundland under attack because Europe wants to save the poor little sea-kittens. Even worse, we have a federal government which seems to be unwilling to stand up for that industry. After they fucked up our fishery, I'm not about to let the seal hunt go quietly into the night.

I was quite into Danny William's 'ABC' (Anything But Conservative) campaign. I voted as a Newfoundlander, not a Canadian, just like I identify as a Newfoundlander, not a Canadian. The only time I've identified myself as a Canadian first, was when dealing with Americans who don't know where Newfoundland is.

 

[AshburnerX]

Actually, I understand Canadian foreign policy pretty well... I was actually having trouble coming up with a way to say it that wouldn't sound condescending

 

[Rob King]

Maybe a better illustration: Canada refused to go to war in Iraq. Consequently, we went to war in Afghanistan because America said: We understand you dont want to go to war in Iraq with us, but instead you will have to commit your forces to the Afghanistan mission.

That's ... not what happened.

Afghanistan happened before Iraq. We went in there because there was an undeniable cause for war. When the Americans went to Iraq, we said 'hell no.' But since they are our ally, we took some of the pressure off them by picking up the slack in Afghanistan.

The thrust of your point is mostly correct, but you're fudging some details.

 

[BoringMetaphor]

I love Danny Williams. I support the seal hunt. European environmental causes are pretty messed up sometimes. German environmentalists close down nuclear plants in the 80s because it was dangerous. Thus, Germany is now one of the largest coal power producing countries in Europe. (source needed for this anecdote, I think its true)

Then they yell at Iceland for being environmentally unfriendly. Even as they produce a whack load of coal. Just goes to show that countries are made up of different people.

Ash: Im not sure if I replied to you appropriately then. What were you getting at exactly?

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

Oops, yep you're right.

We went to Afghan first technically from NATO commitments. I think we were in Kabul area. Then after Iraq is when we moved to much more dangerous and volatile Kandahar area to pick up the slack.

Sorry, that was a bit unclear in my post.

 

[Heavan]

I am voting as a Canadian by going for Alberta, because guess who's prosperity has the biggest part in equalizing the other provinces? Destroy the oil industry and everyone goes down.

 

[Rob King]

I am voting as a Canadian by going for Alberta, because guess who's prosperity has the biggest part in equalizing the other provinces? Destroy the oil industry and everyone goes down.

:bush:

You're 'for' Alberta because Alberta will benefit the rest of Canada? That offends me more than if you said 'Alberta is most awesome, therefore I think as an Albertan.'

I mean, don't get me wrong: nothing wrong with Alberta. But it just sounds weird to say it like that.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

It sounds weird to me, too. It sounds like "damn the rest of you, as long as we're good you can have our scraps."

I don't actually think that's how he meant it, though.

 

[Heavan]

I didn't mean it like that, no. The simple fact is that, right now, Alberta is doing pretty good thanks to the oil industry while other provinces have industries that are kind of either at a low point or going under. The money from the Albertan oil industry subsidizes the other provinces until they get back on their feet. Someday when the oil industry inevitably dies, I hope that they return the favor. I just don't see how it makes any sense to kill the oil industry now- everyone would be destroyed.

I also know that Alberta isn't the only 'well-off' province at the moment. I'm pretty sure that we're high on the list, though.

 

[Rob King]

I also know that Alberta isn't the only 'well-off' province at the moment. I'm pretty sure that we're high on the list, though.

Yeah, well, like I said, if Newfoundland isn't 'have' at the moment, it's hovering quite near the line. And that is also based on oil.

If they ever lift the cod moratorium, I'm sure that will also help, and we'll be 'have' for good! (I hope)

 

[Heavan]

Canada is quickly becoming a developing nation.

Hahahahaha, no. We aren't. Maybe we're polluting a bit, maybe the oil industry won't be viable in a few decades, okay. That doesn't put us on the level of developing nations. That's like saying the US is a developing nation because they're in a recession.