J
JONJONAUG
Edited video:
Raw/Full video:
Wikileaks Publishes Videos of US Soliders Killing Journalists and Civilians
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Raw/Full video:
Dave
Staff member
Wild. Not sure how to respond to this, truthfully. These guys thought that they were seeing people with weapons in a hot zone. In war sometimes you act with the information given or you get people killed.
Not saying what they did was right or wrong. It's too damned easy to second guess years later when they only had moments to act. I would be willing to bet that this fucked with the heads of those who fired the shots.
Not saying what they did was right or wrong. It's too damned easy to second guess years later when they only had moments to act. I would be willing to bet that this fucked with the heads of those who fired the shots.
Not to mention the bit when they think that one guy has a rifle, and one guy has an RPG, and then all of a sudden, they're reporting "5 or 6 AK-47s" when any idiot can see that's not true.
And when they report that the guys in the van are "picking up weapons" and destroy the van, when you can clearly see that they just picked up the wounded man and they're not carrying any visible weapons.
There's tragic mistakes on a battlefield, and then there's willful disregard for the sanctity of life, and this seems to fall a lot closer to the latter.
It's also more than a bit disturbing that this sounded like an Xbox Live conversation in MWF.
And when they report that the guys in the van are "picking up weapons" and destroy the van, when you can clearly see that they just picked up the wounded man and they're not carrying any visible weapons.
There's tragic mistakes on a battlefield, and then there's willful disregard for the sanctity of life, and this seems to fall a lot closer to the latter.
It's also more than a bit disturbing that this sounded like an Xbox Live conversation in MWF.
Dave
Staff member
Okay I heard it. At that point they were still under the assumption that it was a hot engagement. While still in the event you don't break down, you don't analyze, you don't feel. When they get back to the base it's a different story.
Civilians can never know what it's like to have to go into that life & death and then get questioned about it afterward by the media and by yourself. I never had to do it, but I knew plenty of guys who did and they are not cold unfeeling monsters.
Civilians can never know what it's like to have to go into that life & death and then get questioned about it afterward by the media and by yourself. I never had to do it, but I knew plenty of guys who did and they are not cold unfeeling monsters.
Perhaps Dave, but this video seems to make it only too clear that there should be more questions asked, both in this case and in general, IMO.
Did your friends laugh "Hahaha, right through the windshield!" or "Nice shot! haha Thanks!" as a wounded man was being carried to a van?
Dave
Staff member
Did your friends laugh "Hahaha, right through the windshield!" or "Nice shot! haha Thanks!" as a wounded man was being carried to a van?[/QUOTE]
Again, at that point they thought it was a bunch of bad guys trying to evac their wounded. At that point I see nothing wrong with what happened with the sole exception of being wrong about the weaponry. But in that area it was not normal fro people to be carrying around camera equipment, so the weapon theory could have been plausible.
Look, it turned out to be bad but the parts you are talking about now are normal. Sorry, until nearing the end I fail to see the big deal with the actions of the soldiers.
Exactly. They sounded more like kids on Xbox Live than Soldiers who understand the consequences of each bullet they fire.
A
Andromache
Soldiers, (often very young) in a war have to mentally toughen themselves up against the horrors of war. They kill and they are killed, and it's not sanitized. I don't fault the units for that attitude. Don't want people to act like that, don't put them into a shitty hellhole and expect them to win at any cost.
That said, I do have major issues with the fundamental policies behind the engagement procedures. But thats command structure issues, not on the ground boots and butts troops. That was a bad op because the policies were wrong, and no one verified before engaging multiple people in the hot zone who were clearly not visibly hostile.
That said, I do have major issues with the fundamental policies behind the engagement procedures. But thats command structure issues, not on the ground boots and butts troops. That was a bad op because the policies were wrong, and no one verified before engaging multiple people in the hot zone who were clearly not visibly hostile.
Agreed.
It's only too obvious that the spotter was fudging what he saw in order to get permission to fire. First, he says that he sees 5-6 AK 47s when the video only shows, at max, 3 people carrying anything at all (one of which is supposed to be the RPG), and then the same guy says that the two from the van were picking up weapons as well as bodies when it's perfectly clear that they just picked up the wounded guy.
There's a disturbing disregard shown for taking the possibility of a mistake into account, combined with a clear desire to engage.
EDIT: To put it another way, mistakes can happen, but the way these guys approached this situation, there's no way the mistake could have been avoided. Whether it was within rules of engagement or not, that's not acceptable.
C
Chibibar
hindsight 20/20 always can nitpick what we did wrong or right. The thing about killing the enemy is that, well they are the enemy. You kill them or they kill you. In wartime, that is what is going on. You don't have the luxury to 2nd guess yourself.
Were they not gleeful enough?
Dave
Staff member
Watching that video I can see where they thought there were weapons. That's a pretty big assumption to have to make when lives are on the line, but he made the call. It turned out to be a bad one. But if he had not made it and the guys on the ground had turned out to be something and people got killed the soldier could have been brought up on dereliction of duty charges and it would have been his friends which were killed. This is what we do to people in war - give them 2 bad choices and second guess them when they make the bad call.
Again, not saying they are right or wrong, but the video and those pushing it have an agenda and that agenda does not include war at all, let alone a bad shoot. I agree the brass covering it up did wrong by the victims, but ultimately they are trying to also protect the soldiers. If this goes to trial you think it's the brass who are going to swing from a yardarm? Hell no! It's going to be the boots on the ground that get screwed.
Again, not saying they are right or wrong, but the video and those pushing it have an agenda and that agenda does not include war at all, let alone a bad shoot. I agree the brass covering it up did wrong by the victims, but ultimately they are trying to also protect the soldiers. If this goes to trial you think it's the brass who are going to swing from a yardarm? Hell no! It's going to be the boots on the ground that get screwed.
Yes. In fact, there is a moral duty to do so. It's why officers file after-action reports, and why there is a UCMJ.
First you need to determine that they're the enemy.
There's a huge difference between "not having the luxury to second guess in combat" and "praying for a dying man to pick up something-which-may-or-may-not-be-a-rifle so you can blow him apart with the 30mm machine gun mounted on your armored attack chopper".
Seriously, I think people defending the soldiers here aren't listening.
The question is NOT about their ACTIONS, but their ATTITUDE during said actions. As pointed out by Tekeo, there is a part where the firing soldier is practically asking for the wounded man to go for a gun so he can finish him off, there are multiple "hoorahs" going on during the firing, and you can practically HEAR the "high fives" going around.
The question is NOT about their ACTIONS, but their ATTITUDE during said actions. As pointed out by Tekeo, there is a part where the firing soldier is practically asking for the wounded man to go for a gun so he can finish him off, there are multiple "hoorahs" going on during the firing, and you can practically HEAR the "high fives" going around.
Dave
Staff member
That's what soldiers do. They take pride in their jobs, too. It's a coping mechanism. And if they thought he was a bad guy they want him to go for his gun so that they can finish him off instead of spending money and time to house and feed a prisoner of war. Killing them is easier than the headaches associated with a POW. So he showed restraint there, not bloodlust.
You are being shot at and blown up at regular intervals. IEDs are going off, you're watching friends die. And they aren't supposed to be happy when capping bad guys? have you ever been around cops or soldiers before? This is what they do. The call was bad. their actions were not.
You are being shot at and blown up at regular intervals. IEDs are going off, you're watching friends die. And they aren't supposed to be happy when capping bad guys? have you ever been around cops or soldiers before? This is what they do. The call was bad. their actions were not.
C
Chibibar
well.... You are train to be a killing machine. I kinda like the line that "Gross pointe blank" pointed out. First you do it, then it become a job, then you might actually like it. Part of the psychological conditioning I guess. Is it wrong? I don't know. People have to be in that state of mind in order to pull the trigger and kill another human being. The convention of war does not allow to shoot an unarmed person (at least that is what I believe)
Now, the soldier could have pet up aggression against the enemy. This group of enemies (or the people as a whole) may already have killed his brother in arms in past excursion and want to exact revenge within the rules of war. I don't know. I'm guessing. Of course there are some people who just revel in the destruction of another human being (as long they are the enemy). In War, you need people who are willing to follow order and pull the trigger against another person. some people can mentally adjust and "switch on/off" but some can't. This is why there are psychological help after they come home to "turn off" that "killing mode"
Edit: now I personally don't like war. It is a messy product and just bad for both sides. Even if you win, you still lose a lot of good people, civilians and not to mention property damage. The job dictates you to do certain things, and human beings have ways to "reason" the "rights and wrong" just to get by. I have a friend who I call my brother served 3 tours as Army Ranger. He use to be a real fun guy, always mess around and stuff, but after he came back (now a game tester) you can sense sometime has change in him. He still try to live a normal life, but he has change.
J
JONJONAUG
War crimes sure are fun, huh guys?
And you don't think your prior military service might be coloring your views of these soldiers?
Well, at least he wasn't an inconvenience.
J
JONJONAUG
The level of importance this has versus the amount of coverage it gets is depressing.
It is a shame that we fight in a more dishonorable manner than the insurgency.
No, wait, we don't.
No, wait, we don't.
C
Chibibar
JonHonaug: you should know that the general public are more "concern" of stuff closer to home than what happen across the ocean (sad but true) like the privacy bill that was pass. No many thought about it as much since most would think "I'm not a terrorist, I'm not going to be monitored"
but Healthcare is hitting the pocketbook. It is much closer to home and thus get more news.
Sad eh?
but Healthcare is hitting the pocketbook. It is much closer to home and thus get more news.
Sad eh?
I'm sure the civilians who get killed via collateral damage take comfort in that.
J
JONJONAUG
Except both of the articles in the CNN image aren't about taxes or healthcare. One is about Apple's newest iProduct, and the other is about a golfer cheating on his wife (continuing weeks of front page reports about how a golfer has cheated on his wife).
Except both of the articles in the CNN image aren't about taxes or healthcare. One is about Apple's newest iProduct, and the other is about a golfer cheating on his wife (continuing weeks of front page reports about how a golfer has cheated on his wife).[/QUOTE]
It's not even on the front page of CNN International. But one of the editor's choice videos is about air stewardess' protesting low pay by stripping.
Dave
Staff member
Oh give me a fucking break, guys. War crimes? Bullshit. The reason that this isn't getting more coverage is because it's a tragic accident and not news. Yes, POWs are a pain in the ass. There are several rules governing them and (aside from some very public excesses to the contrary) we abide by them.
Do these guys seem to be reveling in the deaths? Yes. Are there verbal high fives? Yes. Is this what we trained them to do? Fuck yes! Is this something that you would do if trained the same way? Yes. Is my prior military experience coloring my views? Of course. Is your LACK of military experience coloring yours? Hell yes!
But you guys sit back and second guess people putting their lives on the line so you don't have to. That's what these soldiers allow you to do.
These men did not fight dishonorably. They didn't do anything wrong on purpose. They were doing what they thought was their jobs. Did they end up being wrong? Yes. But that doesn't make them evil people or war criminals. It makes them soldiers who had to make a call in a tense situation and turned out to be wrong. That's it.
Do these guys seem to be reveling in the deaths? Yes. Are there verbal high fives? Yes. Is this what we trained them to do? Fuck yes! Is this something that you would do if trained the same way? Yes. Is my prior military experience coloring my views? Of course. Is your LACK of military experience coloring yours? Hell yes!
But you guys sit back and second guess people putting their lives on the line so you don't have to. That's what these soldiers allow you to do.
These men did not fight dishonorably. They didn't do anything wrong on purpose. They were doing what they thought was their jobs. Did they end up being wrong? Yes. But that doesn't make them evil people or war criminals. It makes them soldiers who had to make a call in a tense situation and turned out to be wrong. That's it.
Except both of the articles in the CNN image aren't about taxes or healthcare. One is about Apple's newest iProduct, and the other is about a golfer cheating on his wife (continuing weeks of front page reports about how a golfer has cheated on his wife).[/QUOTE]
It's not even on the front page of CNN International. But one of the editor's choice videos is about air stewardess' protesting low pay by stripping.[/QUOTE]
Frontpage Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/
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