Wikileaks Publishes Videos of US Soliders Killing Journalists and Civilians

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Great post man.

Though I do find one flaw, these guys were relatively safe and had ample opportunity to validate what they are shooting at. I could understand if you're infantry with a limited view of the battlefield but these guys are up there looking down at people (physically and in every sense of that expression) with tech that should be able to show them clearly what they are shooting at and what they are doing. That van they shot up and the people they murdered wasn't a threat. You can clearly see a humanitarian effort trying to save a life which in the end cost them their own. A few stray shots would have sent a clear message as long as they made sure they didn't consequently didn't become a threat. Multiple times during the video they were clearly trying to find a reason to kill them "Go get that gun, give me a reason". Yet at NO point did they zoom at what he was CRAWLING to. Would they have shot him dead if he grabbed a rock on the ground?

Makes you wonder how many more of these Irak videos that are out there, classified. Then you wonder why the terrorists always seem to have a fresh supply of people very willing to kill themselves, just to kill a few Americans or American sympatisers.
 
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Chibibar

I have read a couple of war stories from different era (yay history) but this war is quite a bit different than any other war in the past. The enemy is willing to use innocent children, women, young men, old men, and anything else to get their hands on to kill us (the U.S.) You read everyday of suicide bombers (lately of women) killing innocents everyday. Now, with that in mind, can you imagine the "paranoia" going in your head everyday while flying, walking, and searching the streets for the enemy? Anything and everything can be a bomb or ambush.

Yea, these guys were in a chopper. The van looked harmless on our perspective. What if the van actually have one or two rocket launcher? We don't know this (it is possible) until someone goes down there and search the debris. The most innocent looking can the most deadly opponent. If that wasn't true, suicide bombers wouldn't be useful tool would it?

does it justify killing innocents? no. Will it continue to happen? yes. It is war. War is ugly no matter how you slice it. The only way not to kill innocents is not to have war. I do like the football analogies vs the field of grass. You can no damage it by running over it and tackle the "enemy" but there are time when a play "attack" can really damage the field, but only a portion. It happens.

I have never kill another human being. I have beaten one pretty badly, but not kill. I do feel bad at time. I have kill plenty of animals (for food) and sometimes I do feel guilty of doing it. The video does not show the after effect of the soldier's high from killing the enemy. What do you think is going in their head? At the time, I'm sure he is feeling good, but later discover he just kill a bunch of innocent people? I'm sure most normal human being would be torn up inside, but have to push into the back of their mind and continue doing the job. The next attack, he can't second guess if it is civilians. What if he did and thought it was another bunch of innocent and decides to continue to fly over only to discover the van DID have a rocket launcher and shot the chopper down, then what?

With modern technology and portability of weapons, it is VERY hard to spot these things. I can barely do it in a video game (killing zombies, soldiers like company of war etc etc) can you imagine real life with real consequences? I am betting these are tearing some of these people apart inside.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the politicians who brought soldiers to these war zones in the first place.

edit: a true cold hearted killed would have just open fire regardless of intel (but later suffer the consequences) at least these soldiers are still following the rules of war even when the enemy doesn't.
 
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Chazwozel

I just find it funny that people get so shocked when Marines kill people. This is what they're trained to do. They're trained not to think about it or show remorse for what they do. They are trained killers. End of story.

---------- Post added at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

I like Dave's philosphy on this:

Kill em all and let God sort em out. :slywink:
That IS what Marines are pretty much indoctrinated into thinking. They pull the fucking trigger and figure things out afterward.
 
I can see how this happened. As someone mentioned, if I didn't have the captions and helpful arrows on the video, I wouldn't be able to tell what was going on. The cameras they were using were big honking cameras, and in the few seconds before the choppers started firing one of the journalists knelt down around the corner of a building and started taking pictures. In that instant I could see how someone who was worried about their safety (or the safety of their friends, or other non-combatants on the ground) could see someone lining up a shot with an RPG.

It is a tragedy. The soldiers were flippant, yes, but someone has already acknowledged that as a coping mechanism. I don't like it myself, but then I don't have to march through a foreign capital killing insurgents. Maybe if I did, I would be just like them.

The thing that upsets me about this most is that the military didn't take responsibility at all, and it took three years and more than a dozen people to make this thing public. Again, I understand why it was not made public. This could have been/should have been a PR nightmare. But when you are the most powerful nation in the world playing what amounts to whack-a-mole in the desert in someone else's country and someone else's city, I feel like perhaps you should be able to put your balls on the line to own up for the mistakes that were made.

As it stands, a publicized mistake is grounds for criticism and dissent. Perhaps if they were more open, people would understand that mistakes get made, and instead of just criticizing, we could also share with the Iraqi people in remorse.

But then, probably not.
 
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Chazwozel

I was trying to look at it unbiasedly, ignoring the little arrows pointing out the camera's and shit. In several instances it looked like they were carrying RPG's and weapons. My cousin did three tours in Iraq. This is what it is. They're trained to be unsympathetic killers. Period. They get excited over their kills. They are mentally conditioned to want to kill. Welcome to Marines 101.
 
Welp. I guess this thread explains why nothing is going to come of this and why it's not any sort of big news story at all. It does that, at least.
Because people have a variety of views from a variety of different life experiences? I fail to see how that explains why it's not a big news story.

Also wondering: Did anyone else see this show up on any of the major news networks other than Fox?
 
I just mean, it made me realize how still the majority of people are going to write it all off as just what happens in a warzone. Just soldiers doing their job.
 
It was on the CBS morning news. I was surprised they actually showed the footage of the reported getting gunned down. Seems rather graphic for the 7am news.
 
It was on the CBS nightly news last night too, albeit briefly. The segment after it? About the White House Easter Egg Roll and it was twice as long. I was speechless... it was like being in a fucking parody of a news network.
 
I just mean, it made me realize how still the majority of people are going to write it all off as just what happens in a warzone. Just soldiers doing their job.
Well sure, war and terrible things happening in wartime is nothing new, most Americans have not been there nor had any experiences even remotely close to what the average soldier experiences, so do you think it's weird that many will just say "I'm not going to judge these guys, I have no idea what they deal with"? I understand not liking it, I doubt most "like" it or even find it "acceptable", rather it's someone saying how do you judge someone dealing with circumstances so far removed from anything you can even begin to comprehend?

Personally I find their action reprehensible but I'd rather see them spend some time with a good therapist than be sent off to jail unless of course they violated the rules of engagement, which I don't know enough to know if they did. If they did, send them off.
 
Personally I find their action reprehensible but I'd rather see them spend some time with a good therapist than be sent off to jail unless of course they violated the rules of engagement, which I don't know enough to know if they did. If they did, send them off.
I'm obviously not gonna call for the soldiers' heads. It's not their fault. The whole system is terrible, corrupt, and damaging to everyone involved. The suicide rate among soldiers is utterly shameful.
 
Personally I find their action reprehensible but I'd rather see them spend some time with a good therapist than be sent off to jail unless of course they violated the rules of engagement, which I don't know enough to know if they did. If they did, send them off.
I'm obviously not gonna call for the soldiers' heads. It's not their fault. The whole system is terrible, corrupt, and damaging to everyone involved. The suicide rate among soldiers is utterly shameful.[/QUOTE]

I agree, this is the population my wife is starting to work with and it's very hard to get soldiers to get help. To be fair, as far as mental health and dealing with soldiers go, we are lightyears beyond where we were 20 or 30 years ago.
 
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/06/iraq/index.html

I was just on Democracy Now along with WikiLeaks' Julian Assange discussing the Iraq video they released yesterday, and there's one vital point I want to emphasize. Shining light on what our government and military do is so critical precisely because it forces people to see what is really being done and prevents myth and propaganda from distorting those realities. That's why the administration fights so hard to keep torture photos suppressed, why the military fought so hard here to keep this video concealed (and why they did the same with regard to the Afghan massacre), and why whistle-blowers, real journalists, and sites like WikiLeaks are the declared enemy of the government. The discussions many people are having today -- about the brutal reality of what the U.S. does when it engages in war, invasions and occupation -- is exactly the discussion which they most want to avoid.

But there's a serious danger when incidents like this Iraq slaughter are exposed in a piecemeal and unusual fashion: namely, the tendency to talk about it as though it is an aberration. It isn't. It's the opposite: it's par for the course, standard operating procedure, what we do in wars, invasions, and occupation. The only thing that's rare about the Apache helicopter killings is that we know about it and are seeing what happened on video. And we're seeing it on video not because it's rare, but because it just so happened (a) to result in the deaths of two Reuters employees, and thus received more attention than the thousands of other similar incidents where nameless Iraqi civilians are killed, and (b) to end up in the hands of WikiLeaks, which then published it. But what is shown is completely common. That includes not only the initial killing of a group of men, the vast majority of whom are clearly unarmed, but also the plainly unjustified killing of a group of unarmed men (with their children) carrying away an unarmed, seriously wounded man to safety -- as though there's something nefarious about human beings in an urban area trying to take an unarmed, wounded photographer to a hospital.

A major reason there are hundreds of thousands of dead innocent civilians in Iraq, and thousands more in Afghanistan, is because this is what we do. This is why so many of those civilians are dead. What one sees on that video is how we conduct our wars. That's why it's repulsive to watch people -- including some \"liberals\" -- attack WikiLeaks for slandering The Troops, or complain that objections to these actions unfairly disparage the military because \"our guys are the good guys\" and they act differently \"99.99999999% of the time.\" That is blatantly false. Just as was true of the deceitful attempt to depict the Abu Ghraib abusers as rogue \"bad apples\" once their conduct was exposed with photographs (when the reality was they were acting in complete consistency with authorized government policy), the claim that what was shown on that video is some sort of outrageous departure from U.S. policy is demonstrably false. In a perverse way, the typical morally depraved neocons who are justifying these killings are actually being more honest than those trying to pretend this is some sort of rare and unusual event: those who support having the U.S. invade and wage war on other countries are endorsing precisely this behavior.

As the video demonstrates, the soldiers in the Apache did not take a single step -- including killing those unarmed men who tried to rescue the wounded -- without first receiving formal permission from their superiors. Beyond that, the Pentagon yesterday -- once the video was released -- suddenly embraced the wisdom of transparency by posting online the reports of the so-called \"investigations\" it undertook into this incident (as a result of pressure from Reuters). Those formal investigations not only found that every action taken by those soldiers was completely justified -- including the firing on the unarmed civilian rescuers -- but also found that there's no need for any remedial steps to be taken to prevent future re-occurence. What we see on that video is what the U.S. does on a constant and regular basis in these countries, and it's what we've been doing for years. It's obviously consistent with our policies and practices for how we fight in these countries, which is exactly what those investigative reports concluded.

The WikiLeaks video is not an indictment of the individual soldiers involved -- at least not primarily. Of course those who aren't accustomed to such sentiments are shocked by the callous and sadistic satisfaction those soldiers seem to take in slaughtering those whom they perceive as The Enemy (even when unarmed and crawling on the ground with mortal wounds), but this is what they're taught and trained and told to do. If you take even well-intentioned, young soldiers and stick them in the middle of a dangerous war zone for years and train them to think and act this way, this will inevitably be the result. The video is an indictment of the U.S. government and the war policies it pursues.

All of this is usually kept from us. Unlike those in the Muslim world, who are shown these realities quite frequently by their free press, we don't usually see what is done by us. We stay blissfully insulated from it, so that in those rare instances when we're graphically exposed to it, we can tell ourselves that it's all very unusual and rare. That's how we collectively dismissed the Abu Ghraib photos, and it's why the Obama administration took such extraordinary steps to suppress all the rest of the torture photos: because further disclosure would have revealed that behavior to be standard and common, not at all unusual or extraordinary.

Precisely the same dynamic applies to the Pentagon's admission yesterday that its original claims about the brutal February killing of five civilians in Eastern Afghanistan were totally false. What happened there -- the slaughter of unthreatening civilians, official lies told about the incident, the dissemination of those lies by an uncritical U.S. media -- is what happens constantly (the same deceitful cover-up behavior took place with the Iraq video). The lies about the Afghan killings were exposed in this instance not because they're rare, but because one very intrepid, relentless reporter happened to be able to travel to the remote province and speak to witnesses and investigate the event, forcing the Pentagon to acknowledge the truth.

The value of the Wikileaks/Iraq video and the Afghanistan revelation is not that they exposed unusually horrific events. The value is in realizing that these event are anything but unusual.
 
Really this becomes then, according to some of the points that article makes, a discussion on what is the value of the general public being made aware of the horrors of war?
 
It's funny. I remember when the Iraq war started all these news outlets talking about how wars were going to be so different from before because they would be televised and your average yahoo would see what it was like first hand. Funny how that went away with news of Brangelina and random internet penises (penii?).
 
I disagree that it went away. There has been much coverage (and dispute) of the war, dead soldiers, battles, etc. Did the news agencies shift their focus? Of course. They want ratings and people don't want to feel depressed 24/7. Doesn't make it right but it's not that suprising.
 
It also went away when the US Government started forcefully and adamantly covering up any thing that reflected badly on them.

(Things that include this exact video here)
 
I disagree that it went away. There has been much coverage (and dispute) of the war, dead soldiers, battles, etc. Did the news agencies shift their focus? Of course. They want ratings and people don't want to feel depressed 24/7. Doesn't make it right but it's not that suprising.
The guy saying it at the time though talked as if we were going to be seeing footage like the leaked video all the time. He was intimating that we would see, first hand, how wars were fought. While we've had more thorough coverage that ever before, I think that there has still been a good amount of buffering for the delicate sensibilities of the average American.
 
I don't know if it was buffering of the publics sensibilities or really, what got ratings. Like I said, people don't want to turn on their tv's and see doom and gloom all the time. I agree that they over hyped how things would change though.
 
Really this becomes then, according to some of the points that article makes, a discussion on what is the value of the general public being made aware of the horrors of war?
It may be a knee-jerk reaction on my part, but I feel like the American public should be aware of the consequences of the actions of its military in more than an academic, statistical sense, because unlike previous superpowers (like Nazi Germany and the USSR) and upcoming superpowers (like China), public agency via popular opinion and free expression is a valued mechanism in the policy-making decisions of our government.

I'm rambling a bit, did that make sense?
 
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Chazwozel

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/06/iraq/index.html

The value of the Wikileaks/Iraq video and the Afghanistan revelation is not that they exposed unusually horrific events. The value is in realizing that these event are anything but unusual.
I give a big hearty, no shit to that statement.

It's no surprise that we're just as bad as the other guys. It's called war. The whole object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other son of a bitch die for his.
 
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Chazwozel

I'm just replying snark for snark if he's gonna quote WW2 catchphrases
Charlie, come on, I know you're not naive enough to think that no civilians suffer during war and that throughout the history of man's warfare the rules of engagement have never been broken? I'm all for preventing this sort of thing and for diplomacy but the fact is you can't create hardened AND compassionate killers. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Marines are taught one thing and it's to kill. That's their purpose.

We're not the good guys. We're not the bad guys either. We're all human and fundamentally the same. I know this and you know this. The U.S. military knows this, but it's not their job or their agenda to promote this to their soldiers.
 
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Chazwozel

Just because it's been happening forever doesn't make it right. Slavery had been happening for thousands of years, but it is now mostly abolished.
Slavery still exists in more places than you can imagine, and that's not including sexual slavery industries or using child labor. And I'm not trying to justify what US soldiers are doing as right. They're doing what ALL warriors have been trained to do since the first monkey picked up a big rock and smashed it against another monkey's head over a banana.
 
Snarking to make it look like we willfully "slaughtered" unarmed civilians and reporters is a load of crap.

They are making fast decisions from what is likely half a mile away. And they screwed up. What is on that gun camera may not have been what they were seeing. The Apache aims my following the head of the gunner. He is making a Mk I eyeball call on what he sees in that war zone. What they perceived to be 4 armed men out of 6, walking to an intersection with an US column approaching. Turned out to be 2 cameras and 2 AK's of the body guards. From start to finish the guys in the gunships thought they were killing insurgents. At no time did they go, hey look kids! let's open fire!

Now compare that to the insurgents that bomb mosques add markets so they can kill the most civilians possible. Or even when they do target our soldiers, they use IED's that also kill many Iraqis along with our troops.

But of course it is much cooler to see your countrymen as depraved blood-thirsty savages that only want to kill children.
 
I have never said or even implied the US is worse than who they're fighting. The two sides are bad and worse.

And snarking it to make it look like some noble war in Patton's era is also a load of crap.
 

Dave

Staff member
The views of the people here and in the press dehumanizing and second-guessing people doing their jobs and their best to protect the country abhor me far more than the actions shown in the video.
 
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