Broad Religious questions

[Hailey Knight]

Edit: and with regards to the heaven/hell thing, I just don't get it. Unless human empathy is completely stripped, the simple knowledge that other people were in hell would be a piece of hell in and of itself. If the empathy is stripped, and all that matters to us anymore is our closeness to god, then we have lost our humanity. I am a stron believer in the concept of infinite rebirth as it is presented in Buddhism, that we are from moment to moment a wholy different being than we were in the last moment. In the long run this means that the person I am at 50 is a seperate entity than the person I was at 10. But at least there is a thread of continuity between those different states. The requirement of a lack of humanity means to me that the person I am now would be sentenced to oblivion, and some discontinuous modified version of myself would exist in heaven. So, the heaven/hell paradox ultimately requires oblivion of the mortal self. Or that everyone is a sociopath to begin with and has no empathy

Here's a way to think of it that I made up on the spot, so YMMV: Do you have empathy for the guilty in prisons? Not the potentially innocent, but the absolutely guilty (by an objective measure). Maybe you do, but many have none. But take it from the perspective of justified punishment/separation. If you were in a "heaven" that was close to God, then God would also presumably give you perfect insight into why said people are sentenced to Hell, and then presumably you'd be as OK with people in Hell as most are with criminals being in jail.

It's an imperfect answer, but it's kind of an answer that doesn't require the annihilation of the self.[/QUOTE]

That really sounds exactly like what he's saying though, that God convinces you not to worry about it. It's stripping the empathy still, just phrasing it differently, and the effect is the same.

 

[Necronic]

I also believe strongly in the concept of the immorallity of cruel and unusual punishment. Comparing a 10 year sentence to an eternity of damnation isnt possible. Really the comparison only highlights the problem. To accept heaven/hell I would have to accept a form of morality far worse than anything I have ever been exposed to on earth.

---------- Post added at 09:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

Maybe my problem is that I have been reading too many Hellraiser comics recently.

...

there is no heaven, only hell, only suffering, only the flesh

oh noes!

 

[Calleja]

"If you believe that heaven will be better than this life, you're not living. You're just waiting to die."

Carpe Diem, bitches.

 

[@Li3n]

"If you believe that heaven will be better than this life, you're not living. You're just waiting to die."

Carpe Diem, bitches.

If you think this life is as good as it gets you have some very low standards.

I also believe strongly in the concept of the immorallity of cruel and unusual punishment. Comparing a 10 year sentence to an eternity of damnation isnt possible. Really the comparison only highlights the problem. To accept heaven/hell I would have to accept a form of morality far worse than anything I have ever been exposed to on earth.

And this is why i hate these kind of discussions... GO READ SOME OTHER STUFF THEN WHAT YOU SAW ON TV...

Unless human empathy is completely stripped, the simple knowledge that other people were in hell would be a piece of hell in and of itself.

Why yes, feeling sorry for the damned is one of the main things about christianity...

 

[Necronic]

And this is why i hate these kind of discussions... GO READ SOME OTHER STUFF THEN WHAT YOU SAW ON TV...

Could you explain that?

Anyways, back to point, I visited the Sistine Chapel recently, and the painting "The Last Judgement" by Michealangelo really nails home some of what I am talking about, kind of. By the time he painted this he was becoming more and more upset with the church and also more depressed in general about nearing the end of his life. The painting depicts the divvying of people from going to one of the different levels of heaven or to hell.

Obviously those going to hell were having a bad time, but what was really weird is that if you look at it the people going to the lower levels of heaven look scared. Of all the people in the painting there are only a handful in the highest levels of heaven that actually look happy.

Maybe that's not really on point, but I really do love that painting, and the fact that it is in the Sistine Chapel amazes me, as it is ultimately not a positive view of the heaven/hell world.

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So I have another question, for those members of a religion that have a heaven/hell concept that relies on people accepting some tenet of their religion.

If, by not accepting you faith, people would be condemned to an eternity of suffering, how could you NOT justify doing everything humanly possible to save them? If you truly love mankind then you would be willing to go to any lengths to save them, even if it meant warfare to create a government system that propogated your religion, as in the end that would save souls from damnation. Moreover, what of all of those people that never had a chance to hear the gospel? Why should they be condemned to an eternity of damnation for the bad luck of being born in the Congo?

This was the question that ended up getting Carlton Pearson to create the Gospel of Inclusion, and get him thrown out of the church and declared a heretic. There was a great story about it on NPR's This American Life. Basically he was watching a story about the Rawandan massacre and realized that all of those people were going to go to hell because they had never heard the gospel, and was having a dialogue with God about how unfair that was. I won't go farther into it but its a fascinating story.

 

[Calleja]

"If you believe that heaven will be better than this life, you're not living. You're just waiting to die."

Carpe Diem, bitches.

If you think this life is as good as it gets you have some very low standards.
[/QUOTE]

Low standards!? This life is an effin' awesome miracle! The chances of us being here are literally astronomical, and yet here we are! No, sir, "low standards" is an utter lie. I am at awe at the universe every single day.

Besides, as a wise man once said: I don't care where I was before I was born, why would I worry about where I'll be after I die?

 

[Morphine]

I find lightening rods on top of churches a sign of distrust... quite incongruent.

 

[@Li3n]

And this is why i hate these kind of discussions... GO READ SOME OTHER STUFF THEN WHAT YOU SAW ON TV...

Could you explain that?

How many denominations are there?! A lot of them have different interpretations on a lot of stuff, hell included.

Of all the people in the painting there are only a handful in the highest levels of heaven that actually look happy.

Maybe that's not really on point, but I really do love that painting, and the fact that it is in the Sistine Chapel amazes me, as it is ultimately not a positive view of the heaven/hell world.

Does the word Purgatory not ring any bells?! (and the Catholics are the only ones who have it i think, though i'm not very well versed with protestantism).

If, by not accepting you faith, people would be condemned to an eternity of suffering, how could you NOT justify doing everything humanly possible to save them? If you truly love mankind then you would be willing to go to any lengths to save them, even if it meant warfare to create a government system that propagated your religion, as in the end that would save souls from damnation.

No, killing people is against one of the commandments...

 

[Necronic]

And this is why i hate these kind of discussions... GO READ SOME OTHER STUFF THEN WHAT YOU SAW ON TV...

Could you explain that?

How many denominations are there?! A lot of them have different interpretations on a lot of stuff, hell included. [/QUOTE]

Wait what? That.....that doesn't make any sense with regards to what has been said.

 

[Eriol]

If, by not accepting you faith, people would be condemned to an eternity of suffering, how could you NOT justify doing everything humanly possible to save them? If you truly love mankind then you would be willing to go to any lengths to save them, even if it meant warfare to create a government system that propagated your religion, as in the end that would save souls from damnation.

No, killing people is against one of the commandments...

IIRC a better translation than "thou shalt not kill" would be "thou shalt not murder." BIG difference there. Wiki has some discussion on it, but most take "murder" for the meaning instead of "kill" even if "kill" is the specific translation used.