Rep. Ryan's Budget Proposal: Bold, backwards, or both?

[Tress]

For those who may have missed it, Rep. Paul Ryan (R - Wis.) has proposed a new budget with enormous changes to entitlement, especially Medicare and Medicaid.

The plan includes some interesting ideas, and many controversial ones. The primary hot point include basically gutting Medicare by shifting costs back to the elderly (born after 1956... everyone else gets a pass) and slashing taxes for the highest percentage of wage earners (from roughly 36% now to 25%). Ultimately the budget would slash around 6 trillion from the budget by the end of the decade, but does not balance the deficit.

So yeah.

There are some serious complaints and doubts about the validity of the plan, summarized well in this opinion piece. On the other hand, who would argue that the budget deficit isn't a serious problem? Something is needed, and this is the first serious attempt I've seen at solving the budget problem. I'm sure there are many other sources discussing this at the moment. What do you all think?

 

[jwhouk]

On behalf of the rest of the people of the state of Wisconsin, I'm sorry.

 

[Krisken]

I think jwhouk pretty much said it all.

 

[Tress]

Thing is, I don't think it's entirely bad. I disagree with some of the specifics, but this is the first serious budget that actually tackles the budget problem rather than squabble over a small fraction of funds. This could be a useful starting point for a true national discussion. I would rather the public didn't outright reject this due to not liking the details. The how and where can be changed later, so long as we actually start working on the problem.

 

[Dave]

If they are trying to save money why are they cutting taxes for the uber rich. Give me a good reason and I might agree. As it stands it props up the coffers of big business and the very rich on the backs of those who can least afford it.

And yet redneck idiots will look at this and vote for it like it's in their best interest when it is, in fact, directly AGAINST their interests.

 

[Krisken]

Where do I have problems with it? Cutting entitlement programs which benefit the poorest of us, those who actually spend the money they get, and give tax breaks and incentives to the rich, who are less likely to spend it, is one of the reasons we have such a miserable economy to begin with. Reduce Medicare/Medicaid programs and you increase emergency room visits.

I don't think these are just details. I think doing the rich tax cut thing again worked so poorly for us in the Bush era, I have a problem taking it seriously. I mean, I could look at the rest of it, but am I going to find anything less ridiculous?

 

[Tress]

Jesus, you're in attack-mode today so I'll make it even simpler.

I dislike the plan. I do like the idea of coming up with a solution to the budget. Even though I think this is a bad plan, I applaud the fact that someone even tried in the first place. That's more than anyone else is doing in Congress.

 

[Krisken]

I'm not Jesus!

 

[AshburnerX]

He's right. He's House, not Jesus.

 

[Krisken]

It's the beard that causes so much confusion.

 

[Krisken]

Sorry, Tress, I do get a bit funky sometimes. Not trying to be mean, just having a hard time taking Paul Ryan seriously. He gathered a bunch of numbers from The Heritage Foundation, which then gets erased at the Heritage Foundation site. They seem to think that by doing what is in the budget the Unemployment rate will be lower than it has been in 50 years and the housing market will magically correct itself and be back to levels of 5 years ago. As soon as people start sifting through the budget proposal, we're going to discover that the numbers in his proposal are simply not realistic.

 

[Tress]

Sorry, Tress, I do get a bit funky sometimes. Not trying to be mean, just having a hard time taking Paul Ryan seriously. He gathered a bunch of numbers from The Heritage Foundation, which then gets erased at the Heritage Foundation site. They seem to think that by doing what is in the budget the Unemployment rate will be lower than it has been in 50 years and the housing market will magically correct itself and be back to levels of 5 years ago. As soon as people start sifting through the budget proposal, we're going to discover that the numbers in his proposal are simply not realistic.

I agree completely. I just hoped it might kick off a movement for a serious attempt at fixing the budget.

 

[SpecialKO]

The CBO says that GOP plan will be worse for the country than if the GOP sat on their hands and did nothing.
Added at: 10:31
Erik Kain on why the Ryan budget is much more politically-motivated than a serious attempt at budget reconciliation.

 

[Espy]

I agree completely. I just hoped it might kick off a movement for a serious attempt at fixing the budget.

Whoa, whoa, whoa now. Lets not get carried away.

I'm going to be honest here. I haven't read this. I heard some analysis on NPR yesterday that seemed to imply that while not a good solution it's probably the only real (meaning actually make a meaningful difference) solution anyone has put forward so far (of course that doesn't mean it's a good solution they were quick to point out). Now, what they said next I totally agreed with so get ready. Prepare to freak out.
They said it's hopefully going to open the door to potential compromising that could lead to a few things that must include both severe cutting of entitlement spending and tax raises on higher incomes. Because, at least according to their analysis it would take some serious amounts of both of those to get things under control.
And I am for that. Even the higher taxes.

There. I said it. Take away my anti-taxes card now.

 

[Krisken]

Man, Forbes is so liberal.

 

[SpecialKO]

Man, Forbes is so liberal.

To be fair, Erik Kain is a bit more of a liberaltarian than the average Forbes opinionator. He's a hardcore free marketeer, of course (you have to be to write for Forbes), but he's also very pro-labor, as he sees it as a potential check against monopolistic/oligopolistic practices.

 

[Hailey Knight]

And yet redneck idiots will look at this and vote for it like it's in their best interest when it is, in fact, directly AGAINST their interests.

Can anyone explain to me why this happens, seemingly often? I feel like I knew the answer a couple years ago, but I seem to have forgotten now how the Republicans get the poor to blindly vote for them over and over as they continue getting screwed by the GOP's policies.

 

[Tress]

Can anyone explain to me why this happens, seemingly often? I feel like I knew the answer a couple years ago, but I seem to have forgotten now how the Republicans get the poor to blindly vote for them over and over as they continue getting screwed by the GOP's policies.

It's the "American Dream." People always assume that they will one day be among the top 1% of wage earners. One day, someday, they will be billionaires. So, it's important that they make sure the tax rates are nice and low for their eventual rise to uber-wealth. This is the same reason the South was so pro-slavery in the 19th century, despite the fact that only 10% or so of white people owned slaves.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Any serious plan at fixing the budget should have tax raises for the top 1% AT FUCKING LEAST.

 

[Krisken]

Not sure about raise, but at least remove the Bush tax cuts.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Not sure about raise, but at least remove the Bush tax cuts.

I'm not sure what the difference is between a raise and removing cuts

 

[Krisken]

Things like the Bush tax cuts actually had an expiration date. It was never meant to be permanent.

 

[Tress]

I did like one thing in this plan: closing all tax loopholes. I think everyone can agree on that.

 

[Krisken]

Absadoodle

 

[Espy]

YUP.

 

[Shakey]

Can anyone explain to me why this happens, seemingly often? I feel like I knew the answer a couple years ago, but I seem to have forgotten now how the Republicans get the poor to blindly vote for them over and over as they continue getting screwed by the GOP's policies.

I don't know about the poor, but if you're talking about the "redneck idiots", it's mostly because of their push for smaller government. They're usually very independent and just want the government to leave them alone. Many of them don't want, and don't participate in, government programs even if they could help them. They also don't like to be told what guns they can and can't have, which isn't exactly in line with the Democrats.

 

[Covar]

I think that's the first time I've ever heard anyone say the poor vote Republican.

 

[Krisken]

I think that's the first time I've ever heard anyone say the poor vote Republican.

That's because people ignore that there are poor white people.

 

[Dave]

I don't know about the poor, but if you're talking about the "redneck idiots", it's mostly because of their push for smaller government. They're usually very independent and just want the government to leave them alone. Many of them don't want, and don't participate in, government programs even if they could help them. They also don't like to be told what guns they can and can't have, which isn't exactly in line with the Democrats.

Bull. And by bull I mean that these people want government to intrude in lives - just not theirs. They want the government to stop people from getting a legal medical procedure. They want the government to outlaw same sex marriage. They want Christianity to be made the de facto religion. They want English to be made the national language. They want prayer in school and the separation of church and state to be abolished.

At the same time, they are too stupid to realize that the right panders to these undereducated idiots to get votes that do not benefit anyone except the politicians, their donors and the corporations who own everything.

Republicans have become evil and our country is too stupid to see it even though the Republicans are not even trying to hide it any more.

 

[Krisken]

I don't think evil is the right word for Republican lawmakers. Short sighted and greedy, sure, but it's not like they are rampaging in the streets or dropping bombs on us.

The small government/big government schism in that party has existed for a long time and has been perpetuated by the media narrative, along with the supporting the troops.

 

[Shakey]

Bull. And by bull I mean that these people want government to intrude in lives - just not theirs. They want the government to stop people from getting a legal medical procedure. They want the government to outlaw same sex marriage. They want Christianity to be made the de facto religion. They want English to be made the national language. They want prayer in school and the separation of church and state to be abolished.

At the same time, they are too stupid to realize that the right panders to these undereducated idiots to get votes that do not benefit anyone except the politicians, their donors and the corporations who own everything.

Republicans have become evil and our country is too stupid to see it even though the Republicans are not even trying to hide it any more.

I'm not saying it's right, because it's not, I'm just saying that's how they see it. They don't want what the social programs the Democrats are offering, and they're isn't enough diversity around them to see how banning same sex marriage and the separation of church and state really hurts other people. So why should they be expected to vote for them? Republicans give them less gun control and less involvement in their day to day lives, so in their eyes it does benefit them.

Just writing them all off as uneducated idiots isn't going to do anything to change their mind. They'll just keep pushing in the farther to the right.

 

[Adam]

If I can throw my two cents in here as a 'conservative' voter.

When it comes to that specific legal medical procedure (Abortion), I don't believe in its use as an "Oopsy". As someone who can't have kids, it breaks my heart that every day, instead of taking responsibility for our actions, we can just go down to PP and have that potential life ripped out of us. I want that baby. I would have given anything for that opportunity. That said, I still believe abortion should be safe, legal...but rare! Use birth control for crying out loud!

On the gay marriage stuff, I'm torn. I have a gay brother, I'm MCing my gay friends' wedding in two weeks. Do I think gay couples should have the same rights/privileges that straight couples have when it comes to a formal 'joining' as it were? Yes. Is marriage traditionally more of a religious construct than a legal one. Yes. I say give marriage to the religious and civil unions for all. (Of course, gay couples have to fight for civil unions even...which is retarded)

I think one language makes sense economically. Canada has English and French and it's just a disaster of costs and rules.

I used to say the Lord's Prayer in school and I don't remember bursting into flames. If you have a different prayer, I think you should be allowed to say it at the same time. Or if you have no prayers, ditto. Separation of church and state is a given - however that doesn't mean taking "In God We Trust" off of money or taking the Ten Commandments out of a courthouse. As long as rational decisions are made vis-a-vis legal/political/social matters, God doesn't really factor into it.

Conservatives/Liberals - neither group is trying to destroy the country. They just have opposing views on how to make a country better. Paul Ryan's proposal is nonsense unfortunately. 2.8% unemployment *guffaw*

/soapbox

 

[Dave]

I stick by my evil statement. Republicans have become Tea Bagging, Koch sucking monsters who would ruin as many people in the United States as it takes for them to get more and more money and power. None of their moves are made for the betterment of the country. They are to line their own pockets. What possible justification can there be for lowering the tax rate on the mega-rich and corporations? None.They say they are trying to balance the budget? Bullshit. Like Wisconsin where they gave away the treasury to the rich and then used the deficit that made to break the unions, Republicans in Washington are using the same tactics to try and privatize Medicare and get rid of Medicaid altogether.

Today the government will be shut down and it ALL THE REPUBLICAN'S FAULT! They added a shitload of riders to the fucking thing that the President can NOT allow. So when he vetos it they can point their greasy fingers and say "OBAMA DID IT!!" and the unwashed idiots will buy it! Want to see the riders?

http://www.ombwatch.org/files/budget/OMB_Watch-HR1_Policy_Riders.pdf

Let's see, get rid of Net Neutrality. Defund Planned Parenthood. De-nut the EPA.

Big business wins? Check. Women's rights curtailed? Check. Anti-environment? Check.

Evil is as evil does.

 

[Krisken]

Ok, after looking at that document, I guess I can go along with Evil-lite.

Notice how almost nothing was done to the Legislative branch.

 

[SpecialKO]

When it comes to that specific legal medical procedure (Abortion), I don't believe in its use as an "Oopsy". As someone who can't have kids, it breaks my heart that every day, instead of taking responsibility for our actions, we can just go down to PP and have that potential life ripped out of us. I want that baby. I would have given anything for that opportunity. That said, I still believe abortion should be safe, legal...but rare! Use birth control for crying out loud!

I don't want to pick apart your words too much, Adammon, because they were very reasonably stated, but it sounds like you think that pro-choice people, by default, see Abortion as an "oopsy". It also sounds like you think PP is primarily in the service of providing abortions. Is that correct, and if it is, is there a reason why you see it that way?