The crazy state race continues...

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Capitalism begets capitalism. The system is self-optimizing for greatest profitability. In public companies, the board and CEO are beholden to the shareholders. It's their job to make the investment worthwhile. The CEO won't take the job if they don't have a good chance of coming out a winner. If the board hires a CEO who's willing to work for peanuts the shareholders will kill the board. The system automatically selects for high paid ceos that work in the interest on the shareholders.

To suggest otherwise is to fiddle with the basic capitalism our entire financial system is based on, and trying to artificially force capitalism to work against itself is shortsighted at best. There are examples all over the place of countries who pretend to implement capitalism, but instead monkey with the market.

Quite frankly, if you want a financial revolution, it has to start the same way any other successful revolution starts - you get the bottom part of the populace to boycott those companies that aren't doing what they want them to do. It won't work unless you get a significant (double digit percentage) portion of the population to decide that it's in their best interest to boycott companies where the CEO makes "too much".

You can't force this from the top - there are a million loopholes, and the act of closing them merely opens new loopholes.

Most people have chosen to accept the system and work within its framework. Makes it hard to start a revolution when most people are happy with what they have, and even the lower middles class are still in the top 20% of living conditions considering the entire world.

What other options are there? Is there really a way we can force executives to accept less pay for higher standards of success without fundamentally undermining our economy? Even if we do that, is that actually going to increase our society's wellbeing? How can we make sure that money actually goes someplace useful - it belongs to the company if they don't give it to the wealthy. We can't extract it through taxes because there's always a dozen loopholes.

Then there's people like me who alternately are apathetic (it's just the way it is, deal) and accepting (hey, if I work hard, I can make myself wealthy). Is there a chance of reaching us who either don't care, or don't really want it changed because it's going to be us someday, and we believe that if we've invented the next awesome gizmo, then we shouldn't be limited to earning only a million dollars because no one should be rich.

Somehow limiting the amount of wealth any given individual can accumulate will devastate the growth of startups. They are started on the basis that if successful they will vault the inventor/owner/investors into multimillionaires. We would not have Google if the cofounders did not believe that they had a chance at becoming filthy rich. They would not have attracted investors if the investors did not believe they could get a 100x return on their investment. Forcing any sort of cap on either CEOs, executives, investors, or companies, (which is the same as taxing them at an increasing rate) will kill innovation.
 
Forcing any sort of cap on either CEOs, executives, investors, or companies, (which is the same as taxing them at an increasing rate) will kill innovation.
While I agree with the general premise of the system being very much locked in place, and the idea of governmental regulation of private success being distasteful, this sentence makes very little sense at face value. By that kind of absolutist logic, you should not tax rich people at all, but only the poor. It also assumes that being a CEO, executive, investor, or company automatically makes you an innovator.

I could just as easily say that increasing the top marginal tax rate will allow the government to fund more schools, and will automatically increase innovation among lower-t0-middle-class neighborhoods.

The truth is very much in the middle.
 
So your basic premise is "It's too hard, so why bother?" Seriously?
My basic premise is, "All the solutions I've seen so far are ineffective or worse than the problem."

I'm not saying we shouldn't come up with better plans.

But I'm not so naive as to believe that making executives somehow stop consuming a disproportionate share is going to fix anything, nevermind everything.
 
You tell me. My assertion is that it won't fix anything, and I was completely dismissing fixing everything out of hand.

But if anyone is really interested in seriously discussing the benefits of forcing executives to accept less pay, it might be worthwhile starting a new thread. Quite interesting how we got from teenagers in one state facing the possibility of lower minimum wage to the idea that we need to reduce the salary of executives.

Honestly I'll be surprised if the bill is passed.
 
Forcing any sort of cap on either CEOs, executives, investors, or companies, (which is the same as taxing them at an increasing rate) will kill innovation.
Reminds me of that joke about the space pen...

Or on a more serious note Xerox inventing the GUI but not doing anything with it because they where already making all that money on copiers...
Added at: 07:32
Quite interesting how we got from teenagers in one state facing the possibility of lower minimum wage to the idea that we need to reduce the salary of executives.
Almost as if in any system with limited resources one end of the spectrum affects the other...
 
I've been saying this for a decade, we are in the "New Guilded Age." Capitalism has run amok to the point that it is destroying our society again. Hopefully there will be an "New Progressive Era" to right the damage that the Oligarchies are doing to this nation. Monopolies and Oligarchies are not good for competition, and they are not Capitalist.
 
I like how they cross reference who people would vote for with how they voted on marriage. Hilarity.
 
Arizona has passed their birther bill.

In order to appear on the presidential ballot in Arizona, the candidate must provide:

A CERTIFIED COPY OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE THAT INCLUDES AT LEAST THE DATE AND PLACE OF BIRTH, THE NAMES OF THE CANDIDATE'S MOTHER AND FATHER, INCLUDING INFORMATION SUFFICIENT TO DETERMINE THE CITIZENSHIP OF BOTH PARENTS, THE NAMES OF THE HOSPITAL AND THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN, IF APPLICABLE, AND SIGNATURES OF ANY WITNESSES IN ATTENDANCE.
I'm not entirely sure how Arizona is able to dictate what being a federally-defined natural born citizen is, but that is what they are trying to do.
 
or if any parent is not a US citizen...
or if you weren't born in a hospital...
or if there wasn't an attending physician, for whatever reason...
or if there weren't 3rd-party witnesses in attendance...
or if you were born in Hawaii (since their official documents that they issue don't have a lot of these)...
 
I could not agree more.
And you'd be wrong... capitalism is just about private ownership of capital and stuff being done for profit etc. Monopolies etc. are simply bad for competition and innovation, outside of whether or not they're in a capitalist system.

Think of it as being able to vote of things and have the vote matter (democracy) vs not being able to vote for genocide of a minority (human rights)...
 
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/04/13/birther-bill-passes-arizona-senate.aspxI'm not entirely sure how Arizona is able to dictate what being a federally-defined natural born citizen is, but that is what they are trying to do.
Arizona has full power to decide what presidential candidates get on their ballots. It doesn't matter what the federal gov't definition is - the natural born citizen definition is a minimum bar - a state can't place electorial votes on people that go below the bar.

However, there no ruling that says a state can't define the bar more clearly, and quite possibly go above the bar a small distance.

This is a republic. The states get to decide who they put on their individual ballots.

People will write-in if they leave off a real candidate, and honestly this action is likely to make people take more notice of the presidents that don't meet this definition. Rather than hurting them, it's likely to help them in terms of publicity.

It could go to the state supreme court, but it's unlikely that the federal supreme court has jurisdiction over the state election policies. This is one of the areas where the separation between the state and federal gov't, like marriage, is likely to be contentious and confusing, but is probably going to stay with the state.
 
It could go to the state supreme court, but it's unlikely that the federal supreme court has jurisdiction over the state election policies.
Unless it involves removing the party designation off the ballot, which is clearly a racist issue designed to discriminate against black voters.

To be fair that's not the courts who have the jurisdiction, but an unelected federal bureaucrat.
 
Unless it involves removing the party designation off the ballot, which is clearly a racist issue designed to discriminate against black voters.

To be fair that's not the courts who have the jurisdiction, but an unelected federal bureaucrat.
Well certainly, anything that infringes on the rights provided by the bill of rights, amendments, and constitution can go to the supreme court, and it's likely that some aspect of either how it's written, or how it will be implemented may in fact have some weight in the federal arena. It's not going to be a n easy or pretty fight however, due to the contentious issue of state's rights.
 
Arizona has full power to decide what presidential candidates get on their ballots. It doesn't matter what the federal gov't definition is - the natural born citizen definition is a minimum bar - a state can't place electorial votes on people that go below the bar.

However, there no ruling that says a state can't define the bar more clearly, and quite possibly go above the bar a small distance.
The actual bill text in question is framed as re-defining what Article II. Section 1 of the US Constitution actually means, not adding additional state requirements to the ballot (which is in a previous section, and is mostly about filing dates and other paperwork).

It's essentially a rejection of the 14th Amendment and post-14th case law.

BILL TEXT (Sorry for caps, that's how they wrote it), spoilered for size:

THE NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE FOR A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT FOR A PARTY THAT IS ENTITLED TO CONTINUED REPRESENTATION ON THE BALLOT SHALL PROVIDE TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE WRITTEN NOTICE OF THAT POLITICAL PARTY'S NOMINATION OF ITS CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT AND VICE‑PRESIDENT. WITHIN TEN DAYS AFTER SUBMITTAL OF THE NAMES OF THE CANDIDATES, THE NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE SHALL SUBMIT AN AFFIDAVIT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN WHICH THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE STATES THE CANDIDATE'S CITIZENSHIP AND AGE AND SHALL APPEND TO THE AFFIDAVIT DOCUMENTS THAT PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE IS A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN, PROVE THE CANDIDATE'S AGE AND PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE MEETS THE RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1, CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
B. THE AFFIDAVIT PRESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION A SHALL INCLUDE REFERENCES TO AND ATTACHMENT OF ALL OF THE FOLLOWING, WHICH SHALL BE SWORN TO UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY:
1. A CERTIFIED COPY OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE THAT INCLUDES AT LEAST THE DATE AND PLACE OF BIRTH, THE NAMES OF THE HOSPITAL AND THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN, IF APPLICABLE, AND SIGNATURES OF ANY WITNESSES IN ATTENDANCE. IF THE CANDIDATE DOES NOT POSSESS A LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE AS REQUIRED BY THIS PARAGRAPH, THE CANDIDATE MAY ATTACH TWO OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS THAT SHALL TAKE THE PLACE OF THE LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE IF THE CANDIDATE SWEARS TO THEIR AUTHENTICITY AND VALIDITY AND THE DOCUMENTS CONTAIN ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO DETERMINE IF THE CANDIDATE MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1, CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES:
(a) EARLY BAPTISMAL OR CIRCUMCISION CERTIFICATE.
(b) HOSPITAL BIRTH RECORD.
(c) POSTPARTUM MEDICAL RECORD FOR THE MOTHER OR CHILD SIGNED BY THE DOCTOR OR MIDWIFE OR THE PERSON WHO DELIVERED OR EXAMINED THE CHILD AFTER BIRTH.
(d) EARLY CENSUS RECORD.
2. A SWORN STATEMENT OR FORM THAT IDENTIFIES THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S PLACES OF RESIDENCE IN THE UNITED STATES FOR FOURTEEN YEARS.
C. IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF SUBSECTION B, THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE MAY ALSO SUBMIT A NOTARIZED AFFIDAVIT FROM TWO OR MORE PERSONS WHO WITNESSED THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S BIRTH.
D. IF THE SECRETARY OF STATE RECEIVES ANY DOCUMENTS IN PLACE OF A LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE PURSUANT TO SUBSECTION B, PARAGRAPH 1 AND CANNOT DETERMINE IF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1, CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE SECRETARY OF STATE MAY ESTABLISH A COMMITTEE TO ASSIST IN THE DETERMINATION OR HOLD HEARINGS AND SUBMIT ANY DOCUMENTS FOR FORENSIC EXAMINATION.
E. IF BOTH THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE AND THE NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE FOR THAT CANDIDATE FAIL TO SUBMIT AND SWEAR TO THE DOCUMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, THE SECRETARY OF STATE SHALL NOT PLACE THAT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S NAME ON THE BALLOT IN THIS STATE. IF THE CANDIDATE AND NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE FOR THAT COMMITTEE SUBMIT AND SWEAR TO THE DOCUMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, BUT THE SECRETARY OF STATE BELIEVES THAT THE PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT THE CANDIDATE DOES NOT MEET THE CITIZENSHIP, AGE AND RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS, THE SECRETARY OF STATE SHALL NOT PLACE THAT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S NAME ON THE BALLOT IN THIS STATE.
F. A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, A MEMBER OF THE SENATE OR ANY OTHER CITIZEN OF THIS STATE HAS STANDING TO INITIATE AN ACTION TO ENFORCE THIS SECTION

EDIT: Removed all their irritating text-formating.
 
Brewer vetoes AZ birther bill

As for her decision to veto this bill, Gov. Brewer said in part: "I never imagined being presented with a bill that could require candidates for President of the greatest and most powerful nation on earth to submit their 'early baptismal or circumcision certificates'… this is a bridge too far. This measure creates significant new problems while failing to do anything constructive for Arizona."
 
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