[Webcomic] PVP Discussion

figmentPez

figmentPez

Staff member
SpecialKO said:
Anyone else think his syndicated newspaper fetish is showing a little blatantly this time?
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What are you talking about? He's just trying to give his comic a little zip(-a-tone). Make sure the readers know that PvP still has something of (Mary) worth to put up on the old website. Set his little strip apart(ment 3G) from the rest of the pack. He's probably got lots of great feedback on it, his fans stick with him through all the Hi and Lois.
 
R

Raemon777

>Execution is good, but it needs to get through to him that just mentioning LOLBat makes a fair number of his readers want to kick him square in the balls.

Is there something you'd actually like him to DO with this piece of information? He likes writing LOLBat. At least some of us like reading LOLBat. It really, really does not logically follow that he has to care that some portion of his readers react to LOLBat with instant vitriol, especially when those same readers bitch about the rest of his work no matter what.
 
North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Staff member
For me personally the problem with LOLBat is that while Kurtz enjoys drawing them, his storylines - if any - are usually trite as hell. The latest Kringus arc felt like it was aborted out of boredom, with the introduction of the Kringle Force just left hanging in the air instead of given some space to flesh them out. Most of the LOLBat comics seem like filler material that Kurtz has just stuck in when he's not feeling like doing anything (such as the whole colouring book idea).
And of course there's the whole issue with Butler. I frickin' loved Butler. He was cool, savvy, knowledgeable, calmly satirical, a true educated Jeeves to Robbie's hedonistic, flabby Wooster. Aaaaand then he gets slapped on with being frickin' LOLBat. A one-shot idea with a single joke repeated ad nauseam, and the whole thing how the hell he is LOLBat is just lazy writing (a secret society mentioned in one frickin' panel, that's it). For me, that sealed the deal. I could handle LOLBat as he had been before; a kind of filler material living in a separate universe from the PvPverse. But to tie him into the 'verse, through a character that didn't need such uncharacteristic 'background' through a slipshod 'story'... I'm sorry but I just can't get over that.
I miss the old PvP, to be honest... you know, back when the jokes used to be funny?
 
R

Raemon777

For me personally the problem with LOLBat is that while Kurtz enjoys drawing them, his storylines - if any - are usually trite as hell. The latest Kringus arc felt like it was aborted out of boredom, with the introduction of the Kringle Force just left hanging in the air instead of given some space to flesh them out. Most of the LOLBat comics seem like filler material that Kurtz has just stuck in when he's not feeling like doing anything (such as the whole colouring book idea).
And of course there's the whole issue with Butler. I frickin' loved Butler. He was cool, savvy, knowledgeable, calmly satirical, a true educated Jeeves to Robbie's hedonistic, flabby Wooster. Aaaaand then he gets slapped on with being frickin' LOLBat. A one-shot idea with a single joke repeated ad nauseam, and the whole thing how the hell he is LOLBat is just lazy writing (a secret society mentioned in one frickin' panel, that's it). For me, that sealed the deal. I could handle LOLBat as he had been before; a kind of filler material living in a separate universe from the PvPverse. But to tie him into the 'verse, through a character that didn't need such uncharacteristic 'background' through a slipshod 'story'... I'm sorry but I just can't get over that.
I miss the old PvP, to be honest... you know, back when the jokes used to be funny?
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I understand why that frustrates you, but everything you hate about LOLBat are the things I love the most.
 
J

Jiarn

Hey, alot of people loved the two Transformer's movies too. Didn't make them any less horrid.
 
Espy

Espy

So what does this mean exactly?
http://www.pvponline.com/2011/05/03/credit-where-credit-is-due/
Credit Where Credit is Due
— May 3rd, 2011

I’ve been getting a lot of emails and twitter compliments on the artwork over the last couple of days. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to pass on a kind word or compliment. It fuels me, honestly. But before you guys start complimenting me TOO much, I wanted to make sure everyone knows that I’m borrowing heavily for this story arc. I am surrounded by books of pulp adventure comics from the 40’s and 50’s. I’m propped up by a lot of artistic crutches here.
I’m fascinated by the artwork of the great adventure strips from the 40s. And I’m jealous of the modern masters who are able to truly understand this style and emulate it today. Chris Samnee, Steve Lieber and others really know their stuff. I don’t. I want to draw this way, but I’m still learning. And that’s what this week’s strips is really all about for me. Learning. We get so busy that we kind of learn publicly these days. I experiment live with each day’s strip. I don’t sit and sketch for hours every day. The strip is what I get to draw. So I learn as I go. And you guys get to watch. Probably not the best process, but that’s what’s working right now. So let’s not rock the boat too much.
I am really proud of the last panel of Tuesday’s strip though. That LOLbat was all me (and you can tell because my spot blacks are off on his body). But I was really proud of that when I finished it. And it felt good because maybe some of this is actually sinking in.
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So... is he just tracing this stuff or just using references? I get having reference stuff but if he's just copying things line for line... thats... way less cool.
 
Zappit

Zappit

Staff member
That to me says copying, no tracing - or - heavy reference, trying to ape the style while building his own figures. It's one way to learn.
 
J

Jiarn

Except this contridicts your view on it

I am really proud of the last panel of Tuesday’s strip though. That LOLbat was all me (and you can tell because my spot blacks are off on his body). But I was really proud of that when I finished it. And it felt good because maybe some of this is actually sinking in.
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Espy

Espy

Zappit said:
That to me says copying, no tracing - or - heavy reference, trying to ape the style while building his own figures. It's one way to learn.
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Oh, I don't have a problem with learning that way. It's how I learned to draw comics.

When I was 13.

I do have a problem with professionals stealing stuff and using it to make money though. So if he's just tracing it... that, as I suggested, is not cool (it's also not the end of the world though, I mean, it's just lolbat...). If it's just reference? Well, it's lazy to reference to the point of almost copying but it's still better. Make that shit your own son. Reference and add your touches to it.

All in all the whole post reeked of "crap I better explain this before someone posts to the images I copied and makes me look bad". Which is probably a smart way to deal with it. I think the biggest issue I have with it is when he says that "I don't sit and sketch for hours every day. The strip what I get to draw blahblahblah".

You know what? Complaining that you don't make time to better your chosen art form/profession? Again, not so cool. If you want to trace stuff and copy stuff for reference go nuts. Like I said, it's how I learned too. But take time to build your skills since it's your job. It sounds lazy to say, "Oh I only have time to draw my strip, no time to work on my skills". Make time. Thats how we get better.

If I copied (oops, "referenced") someone else's graphic and turned it into my employer and said, "Well you see, I only have time to do this work and I wanted to learn how they did it so I just copied them" you know what I would be?

Fired.
 
Steve

Steve

He loads an image into photoshop, sets opacity, throws a layer on top of it and essentially traces. Not every image but anything that would require a lot of time to create or something that is out of his realm of artistic ability. If you watch his live webcast you'll see what he does. In fact he uses many of the images he's drawn in the past of his characters and either copies the image and make a slight alteration (like a head tilt or a smile instead of a frown) and go with it. I applaud the fact that he doesn't try and be sneaky with it. He shows the world what he's doing and makes no apologies. It's more about streamlining his work over his lack of ability. He has proven he can draw but many times he's working with a tight deadline and doesn't have the time to spend several hours drawing the strip.
 
Espy

Espy

Steve said:
He loads an image into photoshop, sets opacity, throws a layer on top of it and essentially traces. Not every image but anything that would require a lot of time to create or something that is out of his realm of artistic ability. If you watch his live webcast you'll see what he does. In fact he uses many of the images he's drawn in the past of his characters and either copies the image and make a slight alteration (like a head tilt or a smile instead of a frown) and go with it. I applaud the fact that he doesn't try and be sneaky with it. He shows the world what he's doing and makes no apologies. It's more about streamlining his work over his lack of ability. He has proven he can draw but many times he's working with a tight deadline and doesn't have the time to spend several hours drawing the strip.
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I'm not against that. Complaining that you don't have time to work on your skills though when this is WHAT YOU DO so instead you copy/trace/whatever you want to call it? Meh. Make time to get better. You owe it not just to your advertisers and your fans but to yourself.
 
DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Espy said:
I'm not against that. Complaining that you don't have time to work on your skills though when this is WHAT YOU DO so instead you copy/trace/whatever you want to call it? Meh. Make time to get better. You owe it not just to your advertisers and your fans but to yourself.
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Or you wind up like Rob Granito.
 
Gusto

Gusto

I hope you do, Scott.

So I can remove PVP from my bookmarks forever instead of looking forward to that 30% chance of quality.
 
Mathias

Mathias

Steve said:
He loads an image into photoshop, sets opacity, throws a layer on top of it and essentially traces. Not every image but anything that would require a lot of time to create or something that is out of his realm of artistic ability. If you watch his live webcast you'll see what he does. In fact he uses many of the images he's drawn in the past of his characters and either copies the image and make a slight alteration (like a head tilt or a smile instead of a frown) and go with it. I applaud the fact that he doesn't try and be sneaky with it. He shows the world what he's doing and makes no apologies. It's more about streamlining his work over his lack of ability. He has proven he can draw but many times he's working with a tight deadline and doesn't have the time to spend several hours drawing the strip.
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Lol, and he still thinks he's newspaper caliber? Bill Waterson drew a brand-spankin new comic everyday.
 
figmentPez

figmentPez

Staff member
Mathias said:
Lol, and he still thinks he's newspaper caliber? Bill Waterson drew a brand-spankin new comic everyday.
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Waterson had a syndicate to take care of all the marketing, publishing, product distribution and what-not. I don't know just how busy Kurtz is running his business, but I'm going to guess it does eat into drawing time at least a little to have to deal with all the non-art stuff that's involved in being a webcomic artist.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

You know, if it gets him fired up, and gets him actually working on honing his skills, he should go to town and do it. He has the opportunity to not phone in the thing that he loves and makes him money, he should just do it.
Added at: 01:17
figmentPez said:
Waterson had a syndicate to take care of all the marketing, publishing, product distribution and what-not. I don't know just how busy Kurtz is running his business, but I'm going to guess it does eat into drawing time at least a little to have to deal with all the non-art stuff that's involved in being a webcomic artist.
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I love Bill Watterson and C&H as true American cultural icons, but I don't think he would have ever made it as a webcomic artist, because he notoriously hated the promotional, even the self-promotional, side of the business, and that's an unavoidable necessity in being an independent anything online.
 
Null

Null

Okay, I gotta ask... what does Scott Kurtz do all day? If he's tracing his art, and it takes him maybe 2 hours to do a strip... that's 10 hours a week. Let's say that it takes double that to work on the dialogue - that's another 20 hours. 30 hours in a week. He doesn't release new merchandise all that often, so... I'm not seeing where he doesn't have another 20 hours a week just to sketch and work on his art.
 
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