Gentrification

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fade

fade

Staff member
How do you feel about it? I was reading this article recently: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112888084

I can appreciate the desire to retain the cultural nature of a location. I can certainly also see how natives of a community could feel encroached upon by middle class white America. I can even appreciate how the very idea of "revitalizing" could be viewed as an attack with racial overtones. I read most of the comments on this article, and some good arguments were made on both sides. I can't help but feel that two very important arguments are being missed. 1) The underlying assumption that middle class white people have no culture. The argument is always staged as culture vs. no culture, not culture versus culture. 2) Why are these middle class white people in "your" neighborhood in the first place? Probably because they WANT that diversity in their lives. I doubt it's to get 5 minutes closer to work. Should they not be allowed to experience that culture because of their income and skin color? I'm not allowed into your neighborhood because I'm not gay/black/artsy/subculture, even though the presence of those things is precisely why I want to move here? Okay...I want to move here...a developer knew that I did because he watched market trends. He built new housing that wasn't there before, so I have a place to move to. Now I'm evil because I like you, just because I bought a house that costs more than yours. It's my fault they raised the taxes in your area.

What do you think of this? I'm curious, because I saw it in Boston, and now I'm seeing it as I prepare to move to Houston.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

What was it called when the white communities fled these same neighborhoods 50 years ago?
Added at: 18:36
My brother moved into the neighborhood that I think you are talking about 15 years ago. He built a rather large house on a lot that some one abandoned their home for so long it fell down. I guess he was a bad guy for building in a neighbor hood that would give his kids a better life and himself and his wife 2-5 less hours in the car a day.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Gentrification is neither good nor bad, it simply is. Demographics in areas change all the time... my own area used to be mainly white, middle class families but in the last 15 years it's gained a lot of diversity. Yes, it HAS brought an increase in crime, but it has also brought in a lot of restaurants, cultures, and other things that I'd have never been exposed to had the area never changed.

To put it simply, it's far too complex an issue to fit into a simple Good/Bad category.
 
Tress

Tress

sixpackshaker said:
What was it called when the white communities fled these same neighborhoods 50 years ago?
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White flight.

I agree with both fade and Ash. Gentrification happens. It's not evil. I don't think its fair to paint middle class white Americans as some sort of evil invasion force for trying to build a life somewhere. It's also not fair to characterize the middle class as somehow lacking culture.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
AshburnerX said:
Gentrification is neither good nor bad, it simply is. Demographics in areas change all the time... my own area used to be mainly white, middle class families but in the last 15 years it's gained a lot of diversity. Yes, it HAS brought an increase in crime, but it has also brought in a lot of restaurants, cultures, and other things that I'd have never been exposed to had the area never changed.

To put it simply, it's far too complex an issue to fit into a simple Good/Bad category.
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That was one of the good points in the comments. Apparently the Third Ward was a Jewish community 40 years ago, so it has already changed its demographics to have the current make up.
 
C

Chibibar

fade said:
How do you feel about it? I was reading this article recently: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112888084

I can appreciate the desire to retain the cultural nature of a location. I can certainly also see how natives of a community could feel encroached upon by middle class white America. I can even appreciate how the very idea of "revitalizing" could be viewed as an attack with racial overtones. I read most of the comments on this article, and some good arguments were made on both sides. I can't help but feel that two very important arguments are being missed. 1) The underlying assumption that middle class white people have no culture. The argument is always staged as culture vs. no culture, not culture versus culture. 2) Why are these middle class white people in "your" neighborhood in the first place? Probably because they WANT that diversity in their lives. I doubt it's to get 5 minutes closer to work. Should they not be allowed to experience that culture because of their income and skin color? I'm not allowed into your neighborhood because I'm not gay/black/artsy/subculture, even though the presence of those things is precisely why I want to move here? Okay...I want to move here...a developer knew that I did because he watched market trends. He built new housing that wasn't there before, so I have a place to move to. Now I'm evil because I like you, just because I bought a house that costs more than yours. It's my fault they raised the taxes in your area.

What do you think of this? I'm curious, because I saw it in Boston, and now I'm seeing it as I prepare to move to Houston.
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Heh. I get some backlash in reverse of ASIAN "invading" into the neighborhood ;)

I don't think it is about "white" people into a culture, the people are more of afraid of "blended" culture. There are richness in each culture, but when you start mixing people (not a bad thing) the culture tend to get more "blended" and become a general culture. It is hard to "preserve" a "race culture" if you are not of that "race" (i.e. Chinese culture when 50% are white, Jewish community when only 20% are Jew or a black community when 45% are black)

I am not promoting racism or anything, I'm just saying that is what some people fear. I know my parents complain about how Chinese communities in the Dallas are are more blended and lost some of its culture.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

See, I dunno... the "white"* cultures of America have blended pretty thoroughly in most areas and while we all tend to have similar day to day life, we all have our special times of the year where we celebrate our heritage. It's entirely possible to homogenize without losing your identity.

*I don't believe in a "white" race, as we've always historically divided ourselves culturally. Also, because I've never heard anyone use the phrase "white race" in a context that wasn't supremacist propaganda.
 
C

Chibibar

AshburnerX said:
See, I dunno... the "white"* cultures of America have blended pretty thoroughly in most areas and while we all tend to have similar day to day life, we all have our special times of the year where we celebrate our heritage. It's entirely possible to homogenize without losing your identity.

*I don't believe in a "white" race, as we've always historically divided ourselves culturally. Also, because I've never heard anyone use the phrase "white race" in a context that wasn't supremacist propaganda.
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Well, I know that many "white" people don't really celebrate Chinese New Year (Lunar new year) like people in the U.S. celebrate New Year. It likes the funeral service I did for my aunt. I had to do both Asian style and American style to cover all bases (it was hard!!)
 
Neon Pirate

Neon Pirate

Hey Chibi I'm white and I celebrate Chinese New Year, mostly because of my Chinese wife and mixed kids but even when I was a little pirate the family would go into Chinatown in Philadelphia for the parades and dragon dancers. So HA! Had both Chinese and American weddings as well. Though the Chinese wedding was thrown at me at the last minute and while I had a buzz on so that was more of a surprise than anything. But being the mutt I am we recognize and celebrate all the facets of our heritage on both sides and have not lost them. I still know what a mix I am. The general statement is that if something moved in Europe one of my ancestors jumped on it. Then we got here! You can preserve your culture and you can join the melting pot. My family sure did. Took part in some white flight as well since the ghetto was encroaching on the neighborhood I grew up in, didn't need to have any more cars stolen, so we moved a little South where land was cheaper, neighborhoods better and the one we moved into was very racially mixed. Africans, Puerto Ricans, Brazilians, Greeks, Italians, Germans, American whites and blacks, Chinese, and we all seem to manage to keep our own cultures and traditions going. Cherish and maintain yours!
 
Mathias

Mathias

I'm a professor, and I be making Uncle Toms outta black kids, yo. Seriously though, I absolutely hate "us vs. them" mentality. It's so fucking primitive that it's laudable. I don't see what's so special about literal shit-hole ghettos like North Philadelphia that are worth preserving either?
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Mathias said:
I'm a professor, and I be making Uncle Toms outta black kids, yo. Seriously though, I absolutely hate "us vs. them" mentality. It's so fucking primitive that it's laudable. I don't see what's so special about literal shit-hole ghettos like North Philadelphia that are worth preserving either?
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Well, I'm inclined to agree. I just hate that I'm being made out as a villain just because I want to move into an area with a history. By the way, this is coming up because I'm really interested in moving into the Heights area of Houston, which has seen some gentrification backlash. But like I said above, I want to move in FOR the local culture. But the locals will hate me because I don't want to move into a 1920s poorly constructed dump that's been abused for 90 years to do it. I will take one of the newer Victorians, though.
 
C

Chibibar

Neon Pirate said:
Hey Chibi I'm white and I celebrate Chinese New Year, mostly because of my Chinese wife and mixed kids but even when I was a little pirate the family would go into Chinatown in Philadelphia for the parades and dragon dancers. So HA! Had both Chinese and American weddings as well. Though the Chinese wedding was thrown at me at the last minute and while I had a buzz on so that was more of a surprise than anything. But being the mutt I am we recognize and celebrate all the facets of our heritage on both sides and have not lost them. I still know what a mix I am. The general statement is that if something moved in Europe one of my ancestors jumped on it. Then we got here! You can preserve your culture and you can join the melting pot. My family sure did. Took part in some white flight as well since the ghetto was encroaching on the neighborhood I grew up in, didn't need to have any more cars stolen, so we moved a little South where land was cheaper, neighborhoods better and the one we moved into was very racially mixed. Africans, Puerto Ricans, Brazilians, Greeks, Italians, Germans, American whites and blacks, Chinese, and we all seem to manage to keep our own cultures and traditions going. Cherish and maintain yours!
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Well. I think it is more of if you are NOT married/related to the culture. I am trying to say non-participant (i.e. not married into or have family member) don't really want to accept other culture except their own and some people are losing their "traditions"

I personally don't mind all the blending since I personally think some of the "old culture" is kinda silly (IMO) like in a temple men and women CAN'T SIT NEXT TO EACH OTHER. Have to be separated. They are not even allow to eat with each other even as husband and wife. The family still thinks men should be serve first, etc etc.. bleh!
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

fade said:
Well, I'm inclined to agree. I just hate that I'm being made out as a villain just because I want to move into an area with a history. By the way, this is coming up because I'm really interested in moving into the Heights area of Houston, which has seen some gentrification backlash. But like I said above, I want to move in FOR the local culture. But the locals will hate me because I don't want to move into a 1920s poorly constructed dump that's been abused for 90 years to do it. I will take one of the newer Victorians, though.
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Too bad my bro is not quite ready to sell.
 
IronBrig4

IronBrig4

I celebrate Chinese New Year as well because I grew up with tons of Asian friends. I loved getting those lay see envelopes.

I love gentrification. When I was a kid, there were several neighborhoods in San Diego that were filled with liquor stores, cheap strip clubs, and crazy homeless people. Now they're places families can actually live in.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

IronBrig4 said:
I celebrate Chinese New Year as well because I grew up with tons of Asian friends. I loved getting those lay see envelopes.

I love gentrification. When I was a kid, there were several neighborhoods in San Diego that were filled with liquor stores, cheap strip clubs, and crazy homeless people. Now they're places families can actually live in.
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I bet there were a lot of confused sailors.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

The funny thing is that i posted the video right after your PolPot post... i guess you didn't see it yet.
 
Mathias

Mathias

fade said:
Well, I'm inclined to agree. I just hate that I'm being made out as a villain just because I want to move into an area with a history. By the way, this is coming up because I'm really interested in moving into the Heights area of Houston, which has seen some gentrification backlash. But like I said above, I want to move in FOR the local culture. But the locals will hate me because I don't want to move into a 1920s poorly constructed dump that's been abused for 90 years to do it. I will take one of the newer Victorians, though.
Click to expand...
fade said:
Well, I'm inclined to agree. I just hate that I'm being made out as a villain just because I want to move into an area with a history. By the way, this is coming up because I'm really interested in moving into the Heights area of Houston, which has seen some gentrification backlash. But like I said above, I want to move in FOR the local culture. But the locals will hate me because I don't want to move into a 1920s poorly constructed dump that's been abused for 90 years to do it. I will take one of the newer Victorians, though.
Click to expand...
It all boils down to how silly it is that different races like to run away from each other.

*oh I meant laughable not laudable. lol
 
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