London Riots

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Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I'm about 99% sure he wasn't directing that post at you.... as for Charlie being 100% right? I'd say he was about 20% right (the stuff you agreed with) and 80% Wharrgarbl.
 
Mathias

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
I'm about 99% sure he wasn't directing that post at you.... as for Charlie being 100% right? I'd say he was about 20% right (the stuff you agreed with) and 80% Wharrgarbl.
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Well, yeah, just the economics stuff. The AAA credit rating crap is kinda stupid. That's a whole nother can of worms.
 
T

Tiq

Mathias, did I shit in your cereal or something, brudda? I've spent almost all day today, arguing with wankers from glasgow who I know personally, who are sympathizing with the "plight and movement" of thugs who have quite openly admitted there is no rhyme or reason for what theyre doing. You seem to have taken a post that I wrote targetted towards anyone who may be misguidedly feeling sorry for these little assholes, as a very personal attack on your opinion, and that really wasn't the case.

I appreciate the insults on my intellectual capacity, btw... you classy bastard. :D
 
T

Tiq

Oooooh, hang on, mathias is chaz? Fuck that explains a lot... nevermind my previous comment, I've already wasted enough time watching people play "Put up with the annoying fuckwit troll, who ruins the forum" not going to waste my time justifiying anything to that asshole.
 
C

Chibibar

Mathias, I have to disagree with you about "rags to riches doesn't work in the U.S." it does work IF you work hard at it and being resourceful. It is NOT going to drop on your lap. it is not going to happen overnight (like I said, my parents took 25 years to get where they are now).

The problem is that people are lazy. Heck, I'm lazy when I don't HAVE to do anything, but if I get my butt in gear, I can have a better body, better shape, eat healthier, get a better job (higher pay) but you know what? that takes WORK! and it is not easy. It is a gamble. Sometimes I have to find many different job just to get ahead (like my friend) but is it worth it? to some, it is and thus you see stories from rags to riches, but some just keep on trucking in their own lives and make the best of it.

I know in education (at least in Texas) there are SOOOOOO many programs helping people to get an education in community college level. We even have job programs and such to help people get ahead. We have the information, we have the resources but the prospective student have to get up their collective ass to make it happen. They have to apply, they have to do the work, they have to pass the course and get their degree.

It is out there. I remember when working on a volunteer program (teaching computer to low income people and help them with basic PC for their job) that there are lots and lots of program out there. The trick is to find them and apply for them, again, that is work. You (the general you) have to get out and make sacrifices to make it happen.

That is why you don't see millions of people getting "rich" cause it is HARD.
 
strawman

strawman

Chibibar said:
Mathias, I have to disagree with you about "rags to riches doesn't work in the U.S."
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I don't think he was saying that rags to riches doesn't work. I think he was saying that you rise to the level of your social class and upbringing, and a in lot of "rags to riches" stories people aren't changing classes - they were raised by intelligent, well schooled middle class people in a bad spot, and due to their education and upbringing they knew the way out and took it.

Not having been raised by high school dropouts and mentored by gang bangers, I can't imagine not being able to dig myself out of a bad situation.

However there is a ton of learning that goes on before age 15 that embeds, deeply, certain patterns of living, and there is some social theories that indicate that human beings, raised in a bad situation by people who can't give them the tools they need to get out of it, will never be able to climb out no matter what they learn after they're 15. Yes, there are outliers, and a great mentor can take one person every year or so and try to reverse those broken patterns, but this is not something that can be taught for an hour a day in a classroom with a reasonable expectation of change.

"Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" is only, in theory, possible for those that already have those patterns programmed into them. It's not an issue of being lazy - although perhaps they were programmed with patterns of laziness instead - it's an issue of brain wiring. They cannot grasp the thing that is in front of them because they cannot see it, no matter how you point it out. It is not something their brain can work out. And it's not because they are stupid or unintelligent - it's because that's how their brains were wired when they were children.

Brain patterns that are set easily as a child are very, very hard to change as an adult.

I disagree with his assertion that everyone would loot if they were in a given place at the time of looting - I know I'd be spending time figuring out a way to protect my family, then my property. Who cares about a new TV when there's a mob on the streets? My preservation instincts are a bit stronger than my consumption instincts.

But regarding the social class structure - human nature being what it is, it is very difficult for someone to change classes.

However, the idea that classes are imposed by the governement is not strictly true, and society is only partially responsible for the class divisions.

If you replaced every bad parent with a good parent with the same financial resources and means, you could NOT keep the next generation "in their class". They would climb out of whatever hole you built.

It has more to do with upbringing that anything about society and "the man" oppressing the lower class. Unfortunately it's a circular, vicious cycle, and while society and government do their part in making it easy to stay in place, they aren't forcing anyone to stay there more than their own parents are.
 
strawman

strawman

I should clarify that when I say "you could NOT keep the next generation "in their class"" I'm thinking of the US, and most or Europe (including the UK). There are still caste systems in some countries which are socially enforced, and lower class members can only move upward via lies, or a very few acceptable mechanisms, and simply getting the right teachings and upbringing wouldn't necessarily enable them to leave a bad situation.
 
C

Chibibar

stienman said:
I don't think he was saying that rags to riches doesn't work. I think he was saying that you rise to the level of your social class and upbringing, and a in lot of "rags to riches" stories people aren't changing classes - they were raised by intelligent, well schooled middle class people in a bad spot, and due to their education and upbringing they knew the way out and took it.

Not having been raised by high school dropouts and mentored by gang bangers, I can't imagine not being able to dig myself out of a bad situation.

However there is a ton of learning that goes on before age 15 that embeds, deeply, certain patterns of living, and there is some social theories that indicate that human beings, raised in a bad situation by people who can't give them the tools they need to get out of it, will never be able to climb out no matter what they learn after they're 15. Yes, there are outliers, and a great mentor can take one person every year or so and try to reverse those broken patterns, but this is not something that can be taught for an hour a day in a classroom with a reasonable expectation of change.

"Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" is only, in theory, possible for those that already have those patterns programmed into them. It's not an issue of being lazy - although perhaps they were programmed with patterns of laziness instead - it's an issue of brain wiring. They cannot grasp the thing that is in front of them because they cannot see it, no matter how you point it out. It is not something their brain can work out. And it's not because they are stupid or unintelligent - it's because that's how their brains were wired when they were children.

Brain patterns that are set easily as a child are very, very hard to change as an adult.

I disagree with his assertion that everyone would loot if they were in a given place at the time of looting - I know I'd be spending time figuring out a way to protect my family, then my property. Who cares about a new TV when there's a mob on the streets? My preservation instincts are a bit stronger than my consumption instincts.

But regarding the social class structure - human nature being what it is, it is very difficult for someone to change classes.

However, the idea that classes are imposed by the governement is not strictly true, and society is only partially responsible for the class divisions.

If you replaced every bad parent with a good parent with the same financial resources and means, you could NOT keep the next generation "in their class". They would climb out of whatever hole you built.

It has more to do with upbringing that anything about society and "the man" oppressing the lower class. Unfortunately it's a circular, vicious cycle, and while society and government do their part in making it easy to stay in place, they aren't forcing anyone to stay there more than their own parents are.
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I can see that. I wonder what would have happen if I didn't come to the U.S. at age 12.

before then, I was raise in a harsh environment (physical, mental, and sexual abuse in Thailand) but I came to the states. I was angry with the world, but did met good people along the way and made me a better person.

I do believe there is merit to your statement.
 
Shakey

Shakey

I was on the phone with a customer and just about busted out laughing when I saw her.

It looks like one of those sherbert tubes.
sherbert.jpg
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

Pick your favourite: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149

I'll take this:

"But it's not just about the underclass - it's about politicians, it's about bankers, it's about footballers.
"It's not just about a particular class, it permeates all levels of society. When we see politicians claiming for flat-screen TVs and getting jailed for fiddling their expenses, it's clear that young people of all classes aren't being given appropriate leadership."
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Null

Null

Everywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Cause summers here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's just no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! said my name is called disturbance
I'll shout and scream, I'll kill the king, I'll rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No
 
North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Staff member
@Li3n said:
Yeah, that's totally offensive... i mean looting is a multicultural affair:

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That's fucking disgusting... I'm sorry but after seeing that bit I have nothing but contempt left for the rioters. It's one thing to protest peacefully, another to rob and vandalize discriminately, but stories like this just make me want to vomit for humanity.
 
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