WOW free stuff

[Shegokigo]

I'm guessing you haven't played Cataclysm or even Wrath then. Your questing in WoW now adversely affects the entire world around you. Towns spring up in places you libereated, creatures are defeated and the area around it springs with new life/spawns, you progress a storyline with characters who have purpose and help them reach their goals past just returning to them for a reward.

GM involvement wasn't needed and consequence to failure is never a good choice in an MMO. I think you should see where the game is now before saying what it doesn't have.

 

[SpecialKO]

EvE vs WoW, round XXXIII

 

[Shegokigo]

I know you're not trying to do EvE vs WoW in a storyline based conversation. That's just ridiculously one-sided.

 

[ScytheRexx]

It's always been pretty obvious to me that Necronic loves open-MMO games where the players have nearly 100% control, like EvE. I am a bit confused why he likes to bring it up so much in these threads, they are very different type of games. EvE is less a story and more a breathing virtual society.

WoW is a different type of game designed for a different type of audience. I never could get into EvE because I just don't have the energy to "create" my own experience. I want a cool experience put down in front of me that I can follow, and that is one of the reasons I enjoy WoW, and one of the reasons I still love Single Player games.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying one style of game over the other, which is why I avoid getting deep into "game versus game" discussions, it is such a subjective thing where one style is the holy grail to one person, but just boring to another.

 

[Shegokigo]

I agree, the problem here is he's bringing it up in a Storyline conversation, of which EvE has next to nothing. I'm not sure what his point was there.

 

[SpecialKO]

No, no, he didn't say anything specifically about EvE. I was just joking with it because I can totally see this thread heading in that direction from this point about player-created experiences.

 

[Necronic]

First off:

I'm guessing you haven't played Cataclysm or even Wrath then. Your questing in WoW now adversely affects the entire world around you. Towns spring up in places you libereated, creatures are defeated and the area around it springs with new life/spawns, you progress a storyline with characters who have purpose and help them reach their goals past just returning to them for a reward.

I haven't and that's pretty cool/step in the right direction. Darkfall was trying for something like that as well but from what I understand it didn't turn out well.

-----------

Anyways, really I was just talking about player created story vs built in story. EvE does have that (somewhat), but the ones that came to my mind were:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - There is no story whatsoever in the game, but when you die your character is deleted. This leads to really intense/high consequence games, which in turn leads to really fascinating stories on userboards from players about what their dudes went through. To this day I still remember a Minatour character I had.

Dwarf Fortress - Another zero built in story game, but the way a game evolves over time (as well as the intense detail and the inability to recover losses) leads to REALLY cool stories of games played (there's a whole subforum for them on the Bay12 games website.)

Jagged Alliance - I don't have the imagination for this but my brother invents the most amazing stories for his teams.

I've always felt that art imitates life to a degree, and the most interesting stories you can get are the ones that involve the dynamic reactions of humans to a dynamic world (aka "you couldn't make this shit up if you tried.") For that reason a player made story will always be more fascinating to me than a built in story (consider a good D&D game vs a game of Baldur's gate, awesome as it is.)

Moreover, when you are creating the story in this dynamic/human way, you do so through your character, or more truly, your avatar. You become more attached to it as you interact through it, as opposed to watching a movie through its eyes.

It's true that that's one of the reasons I like EvE, but really it's why I love ANY game (so to be clear this really isn't about pimping EvE). Give me a true virtual world. Give me a true interactive experience. I can watch a movie without a laptop. I can read a book on a desert island. What I want is the possibilities hinted at in otherland, neuromancer, snowcrash, or Ender's adventure with the Giant's Drink. I want the chance to really FEEL like a warrior exploring a strange, and yes, scary world. I want to feel amazement at the world. I want to feel sorrow at my losses. I want to feel pride in my achievements. I want to feel fear in the threats presented to me. I want to feel shame for my ignobility. I want to laugh I want to cry I want to hold I want to touch I want to be touched I want to .....

ok I am really sorry for this post. Anyways I just like player created stories better and I think that's the real future of MMOs.

Edit: Just to be clear though for single player games I do still LOVE story driven games, because they can be devoted to a single player they can become much more immersive.

 

[Shegokigo]

All the games you listed have stories that people wrote themselves about their own characters and WoW has about 10,000,00 fan pages with stories jus tlike that. I'm still lost to your point.

 

[Necronic]

But the stories people write themselves in the other games, they go through unique experiences which defines the story. In WoW there really aren't that many unique experiences.

Edit: Also I totally appreciate how completely stupid it is for me to argue whether or not you should enjoy something. So if you like it, more power to you. But I do think that this style of design is inherently flawed and won't be able to maintain players indefinitely.

 

[Chibibar]

There are couple of ways of doing it BUT it is going to be hard on the devs cause there will require MUCH back end work.

WoW do have "phase" where players eventually unlock something after X amount of completion, but to have it go both way would mean that if you have multiple servers, then each server may have a different story.

The only way to really pull this off is to have a single server. EVE does this. It is a single server and thus if players "change" the story it effect everyone. It is much hard to implement it on WoW scale.

Individual quest would be hard to code to "check" if a player is currently working on it then you either have to code it to join the player, have their own quest, or wait in queue (heaven forbid)

a truly open interactive world would be hard. Even with player made quest, after the 1st person then what? all done? then late comer won't have anything to do or people don't make low level stuff.

 

[Shegokigo]

But the stories people write themselves in the other games, they go through unique experiences which defines the story. In WoW there really aren't that many unique experiences.

Edit: Also I totally appreciate how completely stupid it is for me to argue whether or not you should enjoy something. So if you like it, more power to you. But I do think that this style of design is inherently flawed and won't be able to maintain players indefinitely.

Then I don't believe for a second you've read a single fanpage.

People create entire lineage storylines of multiple generations of their exploits.

As for unique experiences? Like what? They went and found an abandoned freighter/mining area, were assaulted by enemy ships and lived to tell about it? Or bought and sold a franchise etc?

Replace freighter with rare spawn npc and enemy ships by enemy faction player and again, it's the same thing.

The way you were making it out to be was that players created content and it appeared in the game and shaped the world. That won't happen. Just because WoW has a "focus" doesn't mean that people don't make their own unique experiences all over.

HOWEVER: I will agree that I had more fun in the experiences I created with my guild mates over the years in Ultima Online than I ever had in WoW because it was literally a Fantasy Sandbox. So I know what you're trying to say, but by saying that WoW doesn't give that it's players, is just your lack of knowledge of what the WoW game and community are really about.

 

[Necronic]

Then I don't believe for a second you've read a single fanpage.

People create entire lineage storylines of multiple generations of their exploits.

But these fan pages seem like they aren't based on what actually occurs in game, they are RPing their dudes. RP isn't what I am talking about. RP is where you invent the story within some confines of given lore. What I am interested in is when the playing of the game creates the structure for the story itself.

.... ok sure in the Dwarf Fortress example people RP to add elements to the details that are given, to flush out a full story, but the structure of the story is given in the dynamic and unique experience that occurs in the game play.

I know it's subtly but it's the difference between growing freely within a room (WoW RP) or growing onto a unique structure (Game experience based RP).

WoW do have "phase" where players eventually unlock something after X amount of completion, but to have it go both way would mean that if you have multiple servers, then each server may have a different story
The only way to really pull this off is to have a single server

I used to think that but I'm not convinced that it's true. On your specific example, why can't the different servers have different stories?

What's always bugged me though is size, but I don't think you need one server for that. It definitely helps if there is a LARGE amount of people on a server though. The more people you have the more you can have heroes or celebrities, which is an interesenting result of larger servers.

Also, if there is something you are fighting for, a larger server creates a society which then has a power-structure, and nothing tells a more interesting story than people jockeying for power.

But there has to be a real point to the power. I mean....why play king of the hill when at the end of the day I could have been drinking a beer? Now if there was a bunch of beer on the top of the hill.......well then for that I would definitely push my brother over.

 

[Chibibar]

I used to think that but I'm not convinced that it's true. On your specific example, why can't the different servers have different stories?

What's always bugged me though is size, but I don't think you need one server for that. It definitely helps if there is a LARGE amount of people on a server though. The more people you have the more you can have heroes or celebrities, which is an interesenting result of larger servers.

Also, if there is something you are fighting for, a larger server creates a society which then has a power-structure, and nothing tells a more interesting story than people jockeying for power.

But there has to be a real point to the power. I mean....why play king of the hill when at the end of the day I could have been drinking a beer? Now if there was a bunch of beer on the top of the hill.......well then for that I would definitely push my brother over.

Why? Can you imagine trying to write different path for EACH server? it would be a patching nightmare.

(totally made up)
What if one server somehow it was possible to kill the King and the son in advance and thus no more alliance (or broken up) while on another server they save the king (like you suppose to) the path will be differnt

What if the players decides NOT to kill the Liche King, while the other server did. Now what? do they advance?

The thing is that WoW has a set of stories to tell and your character is the "central" figure of it to unfold the story. If you make it choose your own adventure (i.e. alternate ending), then expansion would be VERY hard to produce since they have to compensate different avenue players will go.

As a GM, I learn this early that no matter how much preparation (story wise) players will detour it if they can and that is with 6-8 players can you imagine with MILLIONS?!?!

 

[Mathias]

I didn't say they axed the story. I said they axed the focus on the story, and the fantasy immersion experience. You of course can choose to do all of these things. If you country roads, you still have the option of driving 45 MPH on the interstate, too. The focus doesn't feel like the story, the focus feels like it's on getting through the levels as quickly as possible and the end game. I'm not presenting my argument as a need, but a want and an opinion.

I disagree. I enjoy the Deathknight initial experience, along with the Goblin and Worgen starter zones. After those you're right, the story just dies into grinding that's so dumbed down and shepherded the dev's might as well just flip a switch and instantly make you 85.

I enjoyed the pvp aspect of the game far more for this reason, but pvp in WoW is a joke unless you have the top tier pvp gear. I'd rather just play TF2 and skip the timesink of grinding so I can just enjoy pvp on a even playing field.

 

[fade]

Well, I put my money where my mouth was. I ponied up 15 bucks for a month, and I'm bored after 2 hours. I see 7 cups of sweet delicious coffee with tiny wings on them flying away... I still feel like after Cataclysm, I'm being shoved through levels 1-10. You level up so fast now, that it's almost meaningless. That's the feeling I was getting at. Yeah, I know, I could go as slowly as I like, but there's no motivation for that. Maybe I'll try the others expansions at some point. I would like to see environment changes like Shegokigo describes. The low levels still aren't very fun, and still feel like they're being treated as stepping stones rather than part of the game. I realize that's what the community wants, and that's why Blizzard did it, but that still doesn't change my opinion of it.

 

[Shegokigo]

Well there's nothingelse I can say at this point then, I will say however, you have my respect for going back and actually trying though. Sorry it didn't recapture you the way it did for me.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I disagree. I enjoy the Deathknight initial experience, along with the Goblin and Worgen starter zones. After those you're right, the story just dies into grinding that's so dumbed down and shepherded the dev's might as well just flip a switch and instantly make you 85.

I feel this is where SWTOR's strength is going to come in over WoW, with how heavily story-involved it appears to be.

 

[fade]

It might be fun to play with some of you guys though. I'm no power-player though. (That's actually another thing I can't stand about WoW. The "LAWL u NEWB" crowd. Sorry I didn't spend 300 hours giving myself maximum charisma or gearing up for that extra 0.001% DPS.)

 

[ScytheRexx]

I feel this is where SWTOR's strength is going to come in over WoW, with how heavily story-involved it appears to be.

The big fear I have with this is how mandatory they are going to have it.

A good example is in WoW, there are story cutscenes in certain areas or dungeons, and due to the issues with people not wanting to wait for the story to play out ever time, they had to add "skip" dialogues. I am curious how they are going to handle this for players that have been playing awhile, the ones that will be on another alt that don't care what the people are saying. Are they going to add a skip ability and ruin it for the newbie? Or at they going to force everyone to go through it each time, thus pissing off those tired of it? It's not an easy job.

Whatever they do I hope they can pull it off.

 

[AshburnerX]

The big fear I have with this is how mandatory they are going to have it.

A good example is in WoW, there are story cutscenes in certain areas or dungeons, and due to the issues with people not wanting to wait for the story to play out ever time, they had to add "skip" dialogues. I am curious how they are going to handle this for players that have been playing awhile, the ones that will be on another alt that don't care what the people are saying. Are they going to add a skip ability and ruin it for the newbie? Or at they going to force everyone to go through it each time, thus pissing off those tired of it? It's not an easy job.

Whatever they do I hope they can pull it off.

Don't skip calls need to be unanimous?

 

[Telephius]

Don't skip calls need to be unanimous?

GuildWars had skip votes for cutscenes, and L4D had skip votes for the stat screens IIRC. There were a ew people in GW that got antsy when someone wanted to watch the cutscene but it was not that big of a problem.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Don't skip calls need to be unanimous?

Hopefully then it's also anonymous. The person who decides he wants to watch the cutscenes when the rest of his party want to skip is not going to be in that group very long if they find out who he is, more so if the mission will involve further cutscenes.

 

[Shannow]

Is it wrong that right now I am having more fun playing on a free vanilla private server with 3-4k people on it than I am in my FL guild real toon? Been plying since right before vanilla launch, but right now..it a...meh...experience. Shit doesnt feel like a gaming accomplishment now, and it did back in Valinna and BC, especially. I would say rose tinted glasses and what not...but playing on the old "shit terrible" vanilla patch is so much more fun.

 

[fade]

Well, Mathias, I started a Death Knight. You're right. I totally agree, the death knight origin story is a vast improvement. What you do makes a difference, and the world isn't static. Buuuuuuttttt, then the origin area ends, and it's same old, same old.

 

[Mathias]

Well, Mathias, I started a Death Knight. You're right. I totally agree, the death knight origin story is a vast improvement. What you do makes a difference, and the world isn't static. Buuuuuuttttt, then the origin area ends, and it's same old, same old.

I actually deleted my deathknights about three times just to replay the origin portion before grinding to about level 62 before quitting and just defaulting to my original character. To this day, I only have a single character that's level 85.

 

[Vrii]

Well, Mathias, I started a Death Knight. You're right. I totally agree, the death knight origin story is a vast improvement. What you do makes a difference, and the world isn't static. Buuuuuuttttt, then the origin area ends, and it's same old, same old.

Because at the end of the Death Knight zone you're dumped into old Burning Crusade content. If you get to level 70+ the WotLK zones have better stories and phasing elements to them, and the 80+ Cataclysm zones have much, much more. It doesn't change the fact that the game is built entirely around the endgame stuff, but there is story in the questing.

 

[Hailey Knight]

The WOTLK content was cool. I liked how the quests made it feel like your character was Arthas's nemesis (ignoring that everyone else is getting the same scenes and how you'll need 20 other people to fight him much, much later). Way better than how they handled Illidan as this distant foe you never interacted with.

 

[Dei]

The WOTLK content was cool. I liked how the quests made it feel like your character was Arthas's nemesis (ignoring that everyone else is getting the same scenes and how you'll need 20 other people to fight him much, much later). Way better than how they handled Illidan as this distant foe you never interacted with.

I don't know if Arthas really considered you a nemesis, considering that he "Let you live, THIS TIME" about 15 times.

 

[Shegokigo]

If you completed all the content, you'd have known that he was testing you with stronger and stronger enemies to make your strength grow to the point he could slay you and raise you as his most powerful lieutenants.

 

[Dei]

I did complete all the content, I just found it hilarious. (and it backfired) I think that would be more Protege than Nemesis.

 

[Frank]

Yeah, that shit got pretty ridiculous by the end of WotLK.