The only time I really watch any Star Wars movies anymore is when they're on TBS.
Worse and Worse and Worse...Phantom Menace goes 3-D
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OR, artists who's work only became popular posthumously. Of course, there's no telling what amount of selling out they would have done had it happened when they were alive.
I never really understood the whole selling out thing. If you create a program, or improve a system at work and they pay you well for that, it's an achievement. But if you make music, movies, or books that do well, you're selling out.
Same here, hence why I've only seen the prequels twice each and the "remade" originals once.
I admit, I only saw the re-fuck of Episode IV. Didn't bother with the re-fucks of Empire and Jedi. For all I know, they're an improvement.
But I doubt it.
But I doubt it.
I've seen each prequel once, on opening night. That was enough, thanks.
I saw the original trilogy in its unaltered version only once too, back in 1987 with the release of Jedi. I went and watched the special edition in 1997 just because it was Star wars and I was young and curious. I liked some of the changes that were purely for the optics (for example the new vistas of Bespin with more open sky and windows insted of blank walls) and even back then I disliked the changes to the story, aka Han shot first!
My favorite shot added though was the bantha herd that can be seen when Jabba's barge approaches the pit ofCarkoon.
I just wonder why George Lucas didn't put make-up (or CGI) on Hayden Christensen for the removal of Lord Vaders helmet in Jedi when he decided to exchange the venerable smiling Sebastian Shaw as a ghost with the wooden boy wonder wearing a menacing grin.
I saw the original trilogy in its unaltered version only once too, back in 1987 with the release of Jedi. I went and watched the special edition in 1997 just because it was Star wars and I was young and curious. I liked some of the changes that were purely for the optics (for example the new vistas of Bespin with more open sky and windows insted of blank walls) and even back then I disliked the changes to the story, aka Han shot first!
My favorite shot added though was the bantha herd that can be seen when Jabba's barge approaches the pit ofCarkoon.
I just wonder why George Lucas didn't put make-up (or CGI) on Hayden Christensen for the removal of Lord Vaders helmet in Jedi when he decided to exchange the venerable smiling Sebastian Shaw as a ghost with the wooden boy wonder wearing a menacing grin.
Really, the only added scene that I didn't like was the Hayden Christensen force ghost. It makes no sense for him to be there. There's no reason he should look like he did before turning to the Dark Side, like at all.
As for the prequels, I'll fully admit it. I thought they were fun. The only things that irk me are the really glaring continuity errors (yes, I know there are many. the primary of which is the shoehorning in of C3PO and R2D2) and the horrible acting of the actors playing Anikin.
Quite frankly, they never would have ever been able to come close to living up to everyone's expectations. I enjoy them for what they are, not what I imagined them to be.
Also, if the target audience Lucas was going for was kids, he certainly hit it. Kid's fucking love the prequels.
As for the prequels, I'll fully admit it. I thought they were fun. The only things that irk me are the really glaring continuity errors (yes, I know there are many. the primary of which is the shoehorning in of C3PO and R2D2) and the horrible acting of the actors playing Anikin.
Quite frankly, they never would have ever been able to come close to living up to everyone's expectations. I enjoy them for what they are, not what I imagined them to be.
Also, if the target audience Lucas was going for was kids, he certainly hit it. Kid's fucking love the prequels.
That's just it, kids weren't his primary audience until he became the money grubbing shit eater he is today. His original trilogy was meant for the smarter movie goer. The Sci-Fi geek. It wasn't for the "masses", he didn't "dumb it down" for the audience by having everything spoken/spelled out for the audience like the Prequels do. The reason the Prequels piss off anyone who enjoyed the original is because we can see that massive shift from "Telling a Sci-Fi space epic" to "Sell more toys/shirts/remakes".
Don't get me wrong, I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a wee little one.
It was a revolutionary film. 90% of that revolution was the special effects. I'm not saying that the original trilogy wasn't superior to the prequels, because that would be ridiculous. But a great majority of the reason Star Wars wowed people so much was because it had huge epic space battles that were never seen before.
I think the thing that people dislike the most about the prequels, frankly is the pussification of Darth Vader (which again, is not helped by the horrible, horrible acting of those portraying him.)
It was a revolutionary film. 90% of that revolution was the special effects. I'm not saying that the original trilogy wasn't superior to the prequels, because that would be ridiculous. But a great majority of the reason Star Wars wowed people so much was because it had huge epic space battles that were never seen before.
I think the thing that people dislike the most about the prequels, frankly is the pussification of Darth Vader (which again, is not helped by the horrible, horrible acting of those portraying him.)
If you took the DNA of Tom Hanks, Jimmy Stewart, Humphrey Bogart, Henry Fonda, Cary Grant, Paul Newman, Spencer Tracy, Daniel Day Lewis, Gene Hackman, Charlie Chapman, Dustin Hoffman and Lawrence fucking Olivier and made some sort of supreme acting Serpentor out of them in the roll of Anakin in episodes 2 and 3, you still couldn't get a good performance with George's directing and the God awful script.
Just my opinion there.
Just my opinion there.
You tell yourself that.
I don't remember disagreeing, I remember adding to that quote.
Pussification of Boba Fett, showing the wise old Obi Wan as a young adult idiot, giving us only 1 Episode of amazing Liam Qui Gon, destroying ALOT of continuity set up by the previous movies and on and on and on.
That is the best GI Joe reference I've ever heard in my life.
And you are right. Natalie Portman is one of my favorite actresses and if you went by the prequels, that would not be the impression you'd get.
Though, I have seen Hayden Christiansen in other stuff, and he still sucked.
Also, Shego, I'm glad you brought up Boba Fett. I was going to make a point about him earlier, but deleted it.
He's a great example of how much the original Trilogy is really style over substance. Boba Fett has, what 4 lines in the entire Trilogy? Yet, ask people to name their favorite Star Wars character, and I'll bet you a large chunk of them will say Boba Fett.
The reason to see Star War in 1979 -1983 was because the special effects were amazing. People saw these movies as kids and teenagers and took it with them well into the late 80's and early 90's. Right now is the new generations turn, but the problem is the special effects aren't amazing anymore. Was the acting better in the originals than the prequels? Was the character development better fleshed out? Certainly, but Citizen Kane Star Wars is not! People went to see Star Wars because word on the street was it looked real as hell compared to other sci-fi of the time.
Added at: 08:18
No it wasn't. The originals were made specifically for ages 10- 25. That's who went. And it was not for the sci-fi geek either. Everyone loved Star Wars because of the special effects. It was the Jurassic Park of the late 70's. George Lucas ALWAYS had toys in mind. He let go many of the profit rights to the movies themselves to make sure he made a ton of profit off of merch sales. Do you even remember the early 80's? Star Wars toys were fucking EVERYWHERE.
Star Wars is a Space Opera. Hardly the first one. Star Wars is heavily influence by Flash Gordon etc...
I've shown the original, unchanged Star Wars to kids and they loved it. Would an adult have the same experience? I have no idea. The problem with kids is that they'll generally like anything if it's remotely related to their interests. I know that most Godzilla movies are shit, but I still love the big guy and I'll gladly watch Godzilla vs Mothra when it's available to me. That's what I grew up with.
But I still maintain Star Wars has its own merits as a good movie. Maybe it lasted because of the special effects--I'd say the imagination put forth with those special effects was a big help. I'm sure we've all seen movies that have tremendous special effects budgets and great explosions that are entirely forgettable. But in case, it has a good story. If it's doing the Hero of a Thousand Faces story, then I think it does that much better than most movies. I'm sick of today's heroes cut from that cloth. "You were chosen." "You're the hero of the prophecy." "I'm only 12 years old." "It's your destiny!" "Why?" "Because we said so!" If I had to give the prequels any credit, it's that the chosen one turned out to be chosen for an evil purpose. I prefer that things worked out in the favor of Luke assuming the hero mantle rather than Obi-Wan or R2D2 coming up to him and saying "You're the hero that was foretold!"
As I said on the last page, part of what else makes it good is that it's dated; i.e. not made for the ADD generation--until Lucas said that wasn't good enough, anyway.
The funny thing for me is, I don't even care about Star Wars that much. I probably wouldn't even own the movies if Lucas hadn't made it a point that the original versions were going to be erased from existence if he had his way and I felt the need to preserve those versions in case I ever wanted to watch them again. I've owned Jedi for 3 years, but I still haven't watched it in 16 years.
But I still maintain Star Wars has its own merits as a good movie. Maybe it lasted because of the special effects--I'd say the imagination put forth with those special effects was a big help. I'm sure we've all seen movies that have tremendous special effects budgets and great explosions that are entirely forgettable. But in case, it has a good story. If it's doing the Hero of a Thousand Faces story, then I think it does that much better than most movies. I'm sick of today's heroes cut from that cloth. "You were chosen." "You're the hero of the prophecy." "I'm only 12 years old." "It's your destiny!" "Why?" "Because we said so!" If I had to give the prequels any credit, it's that the chosen one turned out to be chosen for an evil purpose. I prefer that things worked out in the favor of Luke assuming the hero mantle rather than Obi-Wan or R2D2 coming up to him and saying "You're the hero that was foretold!"
As I said on the last page, part of what else makes it good is that it's dated; i.e. not made for the ADD generation--until Lucas said that wasn't good enough, anyway.
The funny thing for me is, I don't even care about Star Wars that much. I probably wouldn't even own the movies if Lucas hadn't made it a point that the original versions were going to be erased from existence if he had his way and I felt the need to preserve those versions in case I ever wanted to watch them again. I've owned Jedi for 3 years, but I still haven't watched it in 16 years.
ElJuski
Staff member
I mean, the argument of "just because it's made for children doesn't mean it can't be diligently done" has been made millions of millions of time, and so many in these forums alone, its hardly worth going into again. But yes, the original movies, the latter two, by the way, helmed by different directors, are competent enough to withstand as pop-culture facets based on characters and charm as well as fancy special-effects. Somewhere along the line, however, Lucas must have forgotten that all effects and no moxie make for a boring movie, indeed.
I mean, not to mention the inherent flaws of prequels, and the fact that the Star Wars universe, once upon a time, had a little bit of mystery and mystique in it, where you could imagine this vast galaxy far, far, away, and all the creatures that lived within in, instead of having that whole universe parsed out, broken down, and wookiepedia'd for you, inch by fucking inch.
I mean, not to mention the inherent flaws of prequels, and the fact that the Star Wars universe, once upon a time, had a little bit of mystery and mystique in it, where you could imagine this vast galaxy far, far, away, and all the creatures that lived within in, instead of having that whole universe parsed out, broken down, and wookiepedia'd for you, inch by fucking inch.
That every single living thing you see in the cantina has a back story is insane.
Really? Holy hell!
ElJuski
Staff member
The whole thing became too big, and the fans too rabid, that the whole damn adventure got cannibalized. Although I find it funny that Lucas and Co. can make the smallest little bits of Star Wars minutiae but can't get big things right, like "this guy shot this guy."
Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina
And there's more that came out of the card game apparently. And then, a woman walks across the screen during the shot when Luke is selling his speeder. All you see is her legs--nothing else, and no lines in the movie. She has a story too.
And then anything Star Wars related has to point out the settings and places from the movies as if they were the sites of holy relics, when in the movies those just happen to be the planets certain events occur on, not the center of the universe. I forget which Star Wars game I was playing and the characters acted like capturing the site of the Mos Eisley cantina was going to change the course of the war or some shit like that.
I remember when Hellboy II came out people were saying the troll market outdid Mos Eisley, and I have to agree. That place was big, and deep, and there's no way we'll ever get a compendium of All You Ever Wanted to Know About the Troll Market. Some things are best left to the imagination. That's probably one of the reasons Boba Fett was so popular.
EDIT: And thanks to Mathias in the other thread for reminding me--a great example of ruining Star Wars mystery is the midichlorians.
Exactly the point I was trying to get across. Star Wars is an homage to serials like Flash Gordon or to pulp like Lensmen, it didn't create any genres.
In every year of animation, we studied the original Star Wars trilogy in our story classes as an excellent example of storytelling, and especially the Hero's Journey.
We studied the new trilogy as an excellent example of poor storytelling and performance, and looked closely at Jar Jar Binks escpecially for a laundry list of things not to do in performance animation.
We studied the new trilogy as an excellent example of poor storytelling and performance, and looked closely at Jar Jar Binks escpecially for a laundry list of things not to do in performance animation.
North_Ranger
Staff member
Care to give us any Jar Jar highlight, Hat ol' bean?
It boils down to a lack of character motivation in his movements. He's often made to do ridiculous things for "humour" but the character has no reason to do them. Then there's overly wacky and broad movements which are no doubt there to add life into the lifeless performance that tends to come from motion capture but are again given no motivation. We also talked about his design being problematic- nature would not evolve a creature like the gungans, ears like theis serve no purpose in an aquatic creature reliant on eye sight, for example. Things like that detract from what makes the Gungans unique, and thereby make it harder to imagine how they might move.
Stereotypes are fine-and actually encouraged- in animation, though racial stereotypes are still frowned upon. Strangely enough, I don't remember our acting teacher bringing up the racism in Episode 1.
It creates simplicity in design. It allows the viewer to immediately recognize a character's archetype just from a visual, which allows the story to move along more quickly. And for some reason audiences just don't seem to mind as much in animation.
I don't think the reason the Star Wars trilogy was a success was due solely to special effects. It had so many things working for it. A classic soundtrack, interesting characters, a simple but effective plot of good versus evil, a fun summer movie and a communal event. There have been many movies with amazing special effects that any other elements that make a movie good and they failed miserably. Even the movies that were successful were looked with disdain by the public (Spiderman 3). There's a reason people look at the original movies with fondness decades after their original release. They were no Godfather by any means but they are enjoyable movies. How many of you remember how you felt after your first viewing of "The Empire Strikes Back"? I couldn't believe they'd end the movie with C3PO blown apart, Han frozen and taken by a bounty hunger, Luke with a severed hand and finding out Vader is his father. Lucas did with those movies exactly what he was aiming for. A fun trilogy that harkened back to the days of his youth of serial adventures.
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