I'm all for Innocent until proven guilty, but the facts remain unchanged. In fact that was my theory on why this thread has slowed down; everyone's already said their two cents, and nothing new has come up for anyone to add anything new.
[News] The Trayvon Martin Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
P
PotaDOS
I don't understand the point of this. If you want a weapon for defense, why make it so difficult to acquire when your safety is threatened? I guess to me, if I hear thieves breaking through a window in my home after midnight, I'd much rather grab a baseball bat or something that I keep under my bed over trying to find and then fumble with a safe key before loading my firearm. I don't imagine too many scenarios where I would be totally calm in retrieving my weapon with from its safe with plenty of time to spare so I can prevent myself from becoming a corpse.
I don't think this kind of logic applies anymore. I also don't think I have to explain why.
Sadly, stupid actions aren't restricted to stupid people.
To the intelligencia taking solely one part of a list and flipping tables,my only response is a simple shake of the head.
I truly feel this story is being sold more than told. Right from the picture of Zimmerman in orange prison clothes to a 4 year old picture of Martin In the end, it is a shame that one person lay dead and another whose life is ruined but I'm not about to turn off my brain because I'm being pushed to a conclusion.
Of course it's entirely possible that an entire police force and investigation is conspiring against a sweet innocent black kid.
I truly feel this story is being sold more than told. Right from the picture of Zimmerman in orange prison clothes to a 4 year old picture of Martin In the end, it is a shame that one person lay dead and another whose life is ruined but I'm not about to turn off my brain because I'm being pushed to a conclusion.
Of course it's entirely possible that an entire police force and investigation is conspiring against a sweet innocent black kid.
Or more likely a story is being invented now that the whole police force is catching shit and a nation is angry at them. Ya know, cause that could never happen.
There are two stories here. My guess is something in the middle occurred. Now it's just damage control.
Dave
Staff member
Well, you'll notice I have yet to chime in on this other than a snarky comment or two. Let me give my take.
Nobody knows what all happened on that night and we probably won't. One reason for this is that one of the main people in the altercation is dead. So was it a self-defense shooting? Nope. I fail to see how it was considering Zimmerman was expressly told to stop following Martin and yet did not. But it is not clear if he did so because he's racist or because he had an overly large sense of importance. So let's look at this from each point of view.
Zimmerman: It's night in a gated community. Here's a guy - regardless of race, although I still believe this had some bearing on the situation based on what Zimmerman could be heard saying - walking around in a hoodie and looking around. To Zimmerman this looked suspicious. And since he was carrying a weapon without proper training or knowledge of use, it was used to escalate the situation instead of diffusing it. He went full Rambo and tried to take the law into his own hands, chasing the guy until the altercation occurred. Whether Martin physically assaulted Zimmerman is immaterial at this point. At NO TIME should Zimmerman have been in close enough proximity to Martin to have this go down. The whole situation is 100% Zimmerman's fault, even if this turns out to be a self-defense shooting. He was in a situation over his head and instead of following orders he kept at it.
Martin: He's walking home to his aunt's house when this guy starts to follow him. It's dark and the guy keeps watching him. He tries to walk away but the guy runs to catch back up and find him. At that point (or a point quite close to that), Martin approaches the individual and words are exchanged. A physical altercation happens and Martin is shot. Martin is 100% at fault for approaching the guy following him for any reason. He should have walked to his aunt's house or called the cops on the phone. Instead, he got all macho and got killed for it.
In summation, both sides were equally stupid. Zimmerman for being too gung ho and Martin for letting his testosterone and pride take over where his brain should have. The police were stupid for dismissing the shooting as quickly as they did without allowing any information from the investigation to be seem by the public. If it were that clean of a shooting, the parents of the boy should have been allowed to view it instead of being shut out completely. And the public is fucking stupid for jumping on this like they did. I can understand the consternation, but the bounty on Zimmerman's head is just fucking dumb and all the big names - and yes, I'm talking about you as well, Mr. President - should just shut the fuck up and wait for the facts to be brought to light. To instantly condemn the shooter as a racist wanna-be is just as gross a miscarriage of justice as those now trying to paint Martin as a thug punk to justify the attack. Not that first impressions and demonizing people ever turned out to be wrong. Except that Senator who everyone thought killed that girl but even though he didn't he lost his job. Or the Atlanta Olympic bomber that turns out was a hero but his life got ruined anyway. Or the stupid Kony thing where the "charity" taking shitloads of money used it for everything but charity. I could go on with examples for days.
In short:
Martin - Stupid kid.
Zimmerman - Dumbass in a situation he had business being in.
Police - PR and handling disaster.
Everyone else - Grabbed up pitchforks before knowing what the fuck was happening.
M
makare
So martin is stupid for not turning his back on some nutjob who is stalking him?
I gotta disagree there.
I gotta disagree there.
Probs because checkered already went through your post with his rebuttal. And using "possession of mj" to make a guy seem dangerous is lolworthy.
But naw you're shaking your head. We are the stupid ones and you are the enlightened intelligent person in a sea of idiots
M
makare
woah watch out chippy you might have just made a post that actually has some meaning. Don't want to set a precedent.
M
makare
there we go.
Dave
Staff member
You got someone following you in the night and you don't think going home or calling the cops is the right answer? You think confronting the person following you is the right answer? Seriously? Makare, I sincerely hope you're smarter than that.
Dave
Staff member
When I was 17 I got into a bar fight with a dude who yelled some stuff at a female friend of mine. Yeah, 17 year olds are fucking dumb sometimes when being macho. Doesn't mean it was the smart thing to do. In either his case or mine. In each case it was as much the fault of the 17 year old as the old gent.
ElJuski
Staff member
It's not the kid's fault he got shot. Whatsoever. And its sad that we live in a society where putting that sort of blame on that kid is okay. We have all fostered a place where that outcome is possible, and we have all fostered a place where when it happens, we cluck our tongues and go, "welp, that guy was a dumbass." It's really, really sad.
Dave
Staff member
If the kid confronted the guy and is the one who started the physical portion of the altercation, you damned right he's got some blame to shoulder. If I start the violence and end up getting shot there's got to be some blame apportioned out to me, whether the guy was a little too eager to shoot or not. But you can read into what I said all you want. If it's dark out and someone is following me, I'm in no way going to confront them.
The public is, as a rule, fucking retarded, given any major incident. Sorry, but it's a fact. Agent K's phrasing in "Men in Black" sums it up perfectly.
holy shit I can't believe that you are blaming Martin and calling him macho for getting shot
Dave
Staff member
I see. So you have the same facts as me and are willing to absolve Martin of all blame. Huh.
Just because he's a victim doesn't mean he's innocent, regardless of the intentions of the shooter. I'm saying we just don't know and both men put themselves into a position where this thing happened, so they both deserve some blame. But as I've explained it all and you've chosen to be concrete with your belief one way or another, I think I'll stop arguing with the wall now.
ElJuski
Staff member
I mean, it's kind of sad, because Trayvon Martin could have been any one of my students. By the end of 2012 I bet you at least three kids in our school will either be dead, missing, or in jail. But just because they're--and let's take the worst case scenario here--arrogant dickhead bastards with no goddamn sense, doesn't mean they deserve to die.
The evidence does support Martin punching Zimmerman in the face and slamming his head into the ground.
Yet still if Zimmerman did not: a, follow Martin 2, approach on foot c, confront and corner him... Martin would not be in the situation to assault Zimmerman.
Dave
Staff member
But if they attack people physically on a darkened street then their risk of dying is much, much greater. This was the case of two people who let their egos and pride get the better of themselves and escalate a situation where nothing had to happen. Had Zimmerman follow directions things would have gone okay. Had Martin not approached Zimmerman and instead just left (or called the cops) things would have turned out okay. But both people - on the phone with others, by the way - acted in a way that was diametrically opposed to how they should have.
Dave
Staff member
I'm calling him a macho idiot for supposedly confronting and attacking the guy following him in the dark instead of calling the police or finding a safe & well-lit place or going home. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm not wrong.
Dave
Staff member
If your student punches you in the face and starts to ram your head into the floor and you break his fucking fingers? What then? Physically attacking someone =/= not doing homework. But nice strawman.
ElJuski
Staff member
I get help or put him in a restraint because I'm a fucking adult. Because these sorts of situations happen at my school on a pretty regular basis. I don't murder the kid.
This is where I have a problem, Dave. Full STOP here. Kids are especially dumb. The watch captain, having been given directions by authorities which would have prevented escalation, instead escalated matters on his own.