Woman meets dad for first time. Now they're having a baby.

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http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Ir...rs-child-claims-theyre-in-love-118566849.html



"Last year Penny Lawrence (28) tracked down her long-lost father Garry Ryan (46). Lawrence is now pregnant with his child and claims to be in love with her father.

Garry Ryan was born in Dublin but moved to the US with his family when he was two. Lawrence's mother met him, fell pregnant but Ryan left before the child was born. Her mother returned to Ireland.
When Lawrence was four and living back in Ireland her mother died and her maternal grandparents raised her. They died when she was 18-years-old.
Lawrence then became fixated on finding her only remaining relative, her father. Last year she found him in Houston, Texas.
After several daily phone calls she flew to America to surprise him.
Ryan said that the pair felt an instant physical attraction and they soon began a relationship. Lawrence is now pregnant with his child.
Their situation they say can be accounted for by Genetic Sexual Attraction, a term which has been used since the 1980s to describe feelings of attraction between blood relatives who meet first as adults. There is a theory that humans are attracted to faces similar to their own. Also not meeting until both are adults means that normal sexual taboo between relatives has not had time to develop.
Speaking to the Irish Sun Newspaper Lawrence said "We are not committing incest, but are victims of GSA. We’ve never experienced a father-daughter relationship, so we’re just like any other strangers who meet in adulthood."
Lawrence revealed that her three month scan showed no defects. The couple now plan to proceed with the pregnancy and set up a home together.
They say they do realize that their relationship is illegal and are now afraid that they will be ordered apart by the courts.
He said "It’s no different than if I met Penny in a bar. I’d have fallen for her as I have now. It doesn’t feel like we are doing anything wrong."
Ryan explained his situation when he left Penny’s mother.
He said "I was an 18-year-old kid and when Angela told me she was pregnant I wanted to do the right thing. We decided to get married but Angela’s parents disapproved of the relationship and didn’t want me around."
Lawrence said her therapist had warned her about GSA. She said "I did some research into it. I was stunned that some brothers and sisters, daughters and dads and mothers and sons were actually living happily as man and wife."
However there is a lack of an actual medical and psychological definition and acknowledgement of GSA. As Ryan points out "GSA isn't recognized in court."
:Leyla:
I just...wow. I don't even know what to say about this. I can sort of understand the reasoning that they're both adults who never knew a father-daughter relationship before. On the other hand...it's a father-daughter having a relationship and a child.
 
Things like this are not unheard of, and one seems to hear of them from time to time. I personally guess it has a lot to do with where society is willing to draw the line; when does informed consent suffice for encounters of the sort, and when does the horizontal mambo simply become unacceptable.
 
Oh, this is totally consential, that's obvious. However, it's between two consenting adults that are also father and daughter. And I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. This isn't like Woody Allen who married his adopted daughter - which in itself is icky enough - this is a guy boning someone he co-created.
 

North_Ranger

Staff member
Okay, I'm the first to admit I'm all sorts of kinky and depraved and perverted, but even I'm disgusted by this in real life. I know some people like that as a kind of sexual roleplay (you know, older man, younger woman kinda thing), but in application... yeccccchhhh...
 

fade

Staff member
Sleeping with your relative isn't going to necessarily create some genetic freak. Things can go wrong when two copies of the same recessive already present defect get passed on, basically ensuring that the offspring has that negative characteristic. But that doesn't have to happen.
 
There is incest, and then there is procreation. The two do not necessarily need to go together, as procreation is only possible between two people of the opposite sexes, whereas incest can happen regardless of the gender of the participants.

So do you guys think incest is wrong and condemnable in all circumstances, or only in those where there is a heightened risk of creating offspring with genetical abnormalities? What about the usage of prophylactics?

I'm trying to gauge your views on when moral concerns trump informed consent.
 
Meh. I've sort of always been of the opinion that if two (or three, or four) consenting adults want to enter into a relationship, the government should butt the hell out. The only real problem I have with this is the increased risk of birth defects, but then again, women who get pregnant in their forties also have an increased risk of birth defects. Should we tell them they can't have children either?
 

figmentPez

Staff member
So do you guys think incest is wrong and condemnable in all circumstances, or only in those where there is a heightened risk of creating offspring with genetical abnormalities? What about the usage of prophylactics?
I think that incest is harmful for reasons beyond inbreeding. People have a psychological need for family, and that family relationship needs to be non-sexual in order to properly fill that role.
 
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SeraRelm

Which is your opinion, yes. Keep in mind that some people find that outside of genetic relations.
 
I find it icky. But I don't base what others can or can't do based on what I find icky. I mean, lots of people listen to Celine Dion, which I find reprehensible.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Which is your opinion, yes. Keep in mind that some people find that outside of genetic relations.
I never said they couldn't. In fact I have a good number of people who I'm not genetically related to whom I still consider to be family.

Relating this back to the original story, though. This woman went searching for her father after the death of everyone she'd known as a parent. She ended up having a sexual relationship with someone she sought out for a family relationship. There may be details I don't know, but based on what's in the news story she didn't find the family she needed when she found her father. That's sad, and problematic, if not immoral.
 
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SeraRelm

Then what does the hypothetical need for family have to do with their sexual relations?

Regardless, levels of morality are based on what one believes, and my belief is rather similar to Drolls, honestly. Consenting adults, etc. We can say she didn't find the family she needed in one sense, but considering they're having a child, isn't that a family?
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Then what does the hypothetical need for family have to do with their sexual relations?
She sought him out because she was looking for a father and he can't fill that role for her now that he's having sex with her. Doesn't necessarily mean that she can't find other people to fill that family role, but she didn't find what she was looking for in him and there's no way to know if she's found it, or even realized she didn't find what she needed.

We can say she didn't find the family she needed in one sense, but considering they're having a child, isn't that a family?
There are many different positions within a family. A child or husband are not the same as a parent or siblings. One can't replace the other.
 
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SeraRelm

She sought him out because she was looking for a father
I saw nowhere in the news story where it said that. While I understand this sort of relationship is against your beliefs, she did find a family, regardless of the shape it turned out to be.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
I saw nowhere in the news story where it said that. While I understand this sort of relationship is against your beliefs, she did find a family, regardless of the shape it turned out to be.
"Lawrence then became fixated on finding her only remaining relative, her father."
 
Pez, there's really nothing psychologically damaging about what they're doing.

If this girl had any paternal feelings, they were already directed at her grandfather, who raised her.

Is this extremely taboo? yup. Is it causing her psychological harm? I don't really see how it could.

Your assumption that people need these familial bonds is completely subjective and is no way representative of every human being as a whole.

For the record, I do find it squinky as hell, but to claim psychological damage is overstating.
 
I've been hearing about GSA for ages, so this doesn't surprise me at all.

And I'm usually in the "not hurting anyone, so it's not anyone else's business" camp. However, just because the three-month scan doesn't show any birth defects doesn't mean there aren't any. Inbreeding carries a higher risk of birth defects, so having a kid does strike me as somewhat irresponsible. If they were just having sex, but not making kids, I'd have zero problem with it.
 
S

SeraRelm

I've been hearing about GSA for ages, so this doesn't surprise me at all.

And I'm usually in the "not hurting anyone, so it's not anyone else's business" camp. However, just because the three-month scan doesn't show any birth defects doesn't mean there aren't any. Inbreeding carries a higher risk of birth defects, so having a kid does strike me as somewhat irresponsible. If they were just having sex, but not making kids, I'd have zero problem with it.
Well, there are higher chances for people who carry such disabilities and women 40+. We can't legally tell people not to breed*... yet.



*(dependent on country)
 
Well, there are higher chances for people who carry such disabilities and women 40+. We can't legally tell people not to breed*... yet.



*(dependent on country)
So older women having kids would also strike me as somewhat irresponsible. I'm not going to say they're not allowed to have kids though, and I definitely wouldn't support any law in any country that tries to limit reproduction this way.
 
Though, really, the fact that some recessive genes may have a better chance to be dominant can be an issue. However, people tend to think that as soon as anyone blood related has a kid, it will pop out some sort of flipper baby. That's simply not the case.

Sociologically, that's most likely where the taboo came from in the first place. Breed the strongest children by varying the gene pool.
 
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SeraRelm

I'd not think the women 40+ thing was an issue when those entered into social circulation since people didn't live past 30-ish back then. :D
 
S

SeraRelm

I assumed, I was adding on to it about the lack of taboo association.
 
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