Adventures in the Social Security Office OR How I almost got arrested today.

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T

TotalFusionOne

makare1 said:
He was responsible for protecting the public by keeping sick people out. I do not feel bad because they chose to come get their card on a day they were sick. His duties are not wrong so knowing his duties does not make him a bad person.

A search is a physical touching that involves patting someone down or opening property like purses or car trunks. At best what occurred was a stop MAYBE a seizure but since you had every right to leave and walk away, or refuse as you obviously did, there is no search.

if you know are you are going to be waiting in line somewhere bring a book. a cellphone is rarely a necessity and is certainly not in that situation. Unless you are a doctor on emergency call and I am sure they would have made exceptions for that situation.
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So... He gets to choose who was sick and who just had a cough? That doesn't seem right. I mean, I understand that I was the only one there so this is just a personal anecdote but I wouldn't have thought that either one of the coughing people were actually sick. It sounded like normal run of the mill cough. Furthermore I don't think he has the qualifications to decide who is really sick (And yes, I'm being partially silly going that far).

To your next point, if it was a stop and MAYBE a seizure... What would be showing him what was in my pocket since he asked be? That wouldn't be a search? It seems to me that if he's asking to see something on my person that isn't readily seen then it qualifies as a search if I consent to it.

I could have brought a book, that's true. Or I could read one on my cell phone. Or play one of the games on there. Or write an email to someone I've been putting off writing an email to. Or done some more searches for a bed, computer, desk, any of the things I was looking for. All without bothering anyone else and without lugging the huge book I'm currently reading into the building. As I said I had no problems putting my phone on silent. I'd even put it on Airplane if they asked me to. But why, in your view, is it such a problem to use the other features of my phone?
 
Shannow

Shannow

Staff member
Chibibar said:
well, I can see where totalfusionone is going with this one. I mean lots of people are getting complacent. It is not the act itself, but how people will just do "anything" to avoid trouble and when it will stop?

at Disney World, everyone with a bag is subject to search (the bag) refuse, and you don't go into the park.
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TotalFusionOne said:
I really don't see, how "Can I see you receipt?" equals "YOU ARE FILTHY HONORLESS THIEFY GIVE ME BACK OUR STUFF!?!" that TF1 seems to implies it means.
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My mistake, I didn't mean to imply that at all. But I DO believe that checking the receipt against your items implied that they believe you may have stolen something and they wish to see if you did. If the buzzer goes off when someone goes through the door do you instinctively believe that they are stealing? Or do you think that the buzzer is borked? I think you probably fall into the latter of the two, so why should the store treat you as the former?

...also, the silverware example is rather... stupid. If I am going to invite anyone to my house it will be a friend/family or someone that is friend/family of a friend/family, there is a level of conection, stores have to deal with complete strangers, at best, regular costumers and in a much larger scale than any house party, and do that as a way of earning money. I doubt that there will be that many "silverware thieves" in may parties to give me financial problems anyway.
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That's why I said the whole good customer service is treating your customers like guests thing. I'm not saying it's a legal argument against it, I'm saying it's just good business to treat people respectfully. And if you want to treat them respectfully, you don't treat them like you're suspicious of them stealing.

at Disney World, everyone with a bag is subject to search (the bag) refuse, and you don't go into the park.
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This I actually don't have a problem with. It's not like you're going to get groceries for your family, or toilet paper to wipe your ass. It's going to a privately owned theme park. And, again having worked there, you should see what people try to get into the parks.

Like I said, I just choose not to shop at the places that practice this. When I do, I just ignore it. If you're claiming that I shouldn't feel hassled by showing my receipt then why should they feel hassled by my NOT showing it?
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I completely disagree with you on your opinions of this.
 
M

makare

TotalFusionOne;298728][quote=makare1 said:
He was responsible for protecting the public by keeping sick people out. I do not feel bad because they chose to come get their card on a day they were sick. His duties are not wrong so knowing his duties does not make him a bad person.

A search is a physical touching that involves patting someone down or opening property like purses or car trunks. At best what occurred was a stop MAYBE a seizure but since you had every right to leave and walk away, or refuse as you obviously did, there is no search.

if you know are you are going to be waiting in line somewhere bring a book. a cellphone is rarely a necessity and is certainly not in that situation. Unless you are a doctor on emergency call and I am sure they would have made exceptions for that situation.
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So... He gets to choose who was sick and who just had a cough? That doesn't seem right. I mean, I understand that I was the only one there so this is just a personal anecdote but I wouldn't have thought that either one of the coughing people were actually sick. It sounded like normal run of the mill cough. Furthermore I don't think he has the qualifications to decide who is really sick (And yes, I'm being partially silly going that far).

To your next point, if it was a stop and MAYBE a seizure... What would be showing him what was in my pocket since he asked be? That wouldn't be a search? It seems to me that if he's asking to see something on my person that isn't readily seen then it qualifies as a search if I consent to it.

I could have brought a book, that's true. Or I could read one on my cell phone. Or play one of the games on there. Or write an email to someone I've been putting off writing an email to. Or done some more searches for a bed, computer, desk, any of the things I was looking for. All without bothering anyone else and without lugging the huge book I'm currently reading into the building. As I said I had no problems putting my phone on silent. I'd even put it on Airplane if they asked me to. But why, in your view, is it such a problem to use the other features of my phone?[/QUOTE]

The closest you would get is consent search and that would only apply if he asked if he could check your pockets. Under the law, what you describe is not a search.

If you go to place that has a sign posted no cell phones it is their policy to not allow cell phones. As I said it is not a necessity.

Also with your walmart example you implied that if there was a posted sign saying that they checked receipts it would be ok. Why would that be ok but the sign posted not allowing cell phones is not?

For that matter, walmart does a lot of things that do not have signs posted. I have never seen a "you bring your items to the counter, we scan them and you pay for them" sign anywhere but it is clearly the store policy.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

TotalFusionOne said:
Visit your local Social Security office. No seriously, go do it. It's a hoot.

My card was shredded by my four year old right before I left Florida so I needed to get a replacement. After finding the aptly named SS Office I began the worst two hours of my recent history. Upon entering I was in a room with about 60 other people all holding numbers that they got from a computer screen on the FAR side of the room from the entrance. After making my way through the crowd, I navigated the menu and got my number: 364.

I found a good spot on the wall to lean, and heard the next number called almost immediately.

"325"

Oh boy, okay. This isn't so bad. I'll just whip out my internet abled phone and start browsing the interwebz. I was just about to when I noticed a large sign on the wall that read:

ABSOLUTELY NO CELL PHONES IN USE WHILE IN THIS GOVERNMENT BUILDING

"That's... Odd," I thought. But whatever, I can deal with long waits. Then the next number was called "H61." Wait, what? H? I don't have an H in my number... Before I could ask about it, another number was called "41?" And then it hit me: They had THREE separate number sequences running concurrently depending on what you wanted to do at the office. And, instead of doing something like colour coding or dividing digits they just ran three separate sets of numbers. Well this was going to be fun. I began to look for a place to wait out my time.

Two security guards were sitting at a desk and I edged my way over just so I could see/hear anything going on if shit went down. And then shit went down. You see, they had hand sanitizer stations set up all around the waiting room with signs saying if you had any of the following symptoms please leave immediately and use their helpful website or phone number. On the list of symptoms was "Dry cough" and, apparently, someone had to cough. And when they did one of the security guards walked over and escorted them out.

Wut.

This happened again while I was there, but the worst was yet to come. About 5 minutes after arriving someone who had not seen the cell phone sign got a call and started talking on their phone. This caused the smaller of the guards to yell "TURN OFF YOUR PHONES OR YOU WILL BE ESCORTED OUT." The woman left and that was that for about 30 minutes.

Then someone elses phone went off.

No one would cop to it. The phone got silenced and the guard yelled again. Then started walking around the room ASKING US TO PULL OUT OUR CELL PHONES TO SHOW THAT THEY WERE TURNED OFF. "What the hell?" I thought. He got mostly around the room and was all the way back to me.

"Sir, do you have a cell phone?"
"Yes, sir."
"Please show it to me, sir."
"No, sir. I don't consent to being searched. I've done nothing wrong.

I don't think the guard expected that, but I grew up in the hood. I knew my rights. I hadn't done anything wrong and, I got in one little fight and my mom got scared. She said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air'
​
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Now that's how that story should have gone.​
 
Adam

Adam

Shegokigo;298740][quote=TotalFusionOne said:
blah blah blah

"Sir, do you have a cell phone?"
"Yes, sir."
"Please show it to me, sir."
"No, sir. I don't consent to being searched. I've done nothing wrong.

I don't think the guard expected that, but I grew up in the hood. I knew my rights. I hadn't done anything wrong and, I got in one little fight and my mom got scared. She said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air'
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Now that's how that story should have gone.[/QUOTE]

Hahaha, oh Shego, I :heart: you so much.
 
T

TotalFusionOne

Have I mentioned that Shego is my favourite poster <3

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------
The closest you would get is consent search and that would only apply if he asked if he could check your pockets. Under the law, what you describe is not a search.

If you go to place that has a sign posted no cell phones it is their policy to not allow cell phones. As I said it is not a necessity.
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So wait, asking me to take something out of my pockets is not a search even though it violates my reasonable expectation of privacy? I don't understand how that could be.
 
Vytamindi

Vytamindi

In before LeQuack!!!

But I do understand how Sam's can justify looking at my reciept. Since they don't use shopping bags for their merchandise, it would be easy to just add stuff to the cart.
 
Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Staff member
TotalFusionOne said:
Have I mentioned that Shego is my favourite poster <3

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------
The closest you would get is consent search and that would only apply if he asked if he could check your pockets. Under the law, what you describe is not a search.

If you go to place that has a sign posted no cell phones it is their policy to not allow cell phones. As I said it is not a necessity.
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So wait, asking me to take something out of my pockets is not a search even though it violates my reasonable expectation of privacy? I don't understand how that could be.
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What are you doing here? Go back to writing the slashfic! *Whips TFO with a leather whip*
 
M

makare

TotalFusionOne said:
Have I mentioned that Shego is my favourite poster <3

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------
The closest you would get is consent search and that would only apply if he asked if he could check your pockets. Under the law, what you describe is not a search.

If you go to place that has a sign posted no cell phones it is their policy to not allow cell phones. As I said it is not a necessity.
Click to expand...
So wait, asking me to take something out of my pockets is not a search even though it violates my reasonable expectation of privacy? I don't understand how that could be.
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How does asking you to take something out of your pocket violate privacy? Especially since there was no reason to believe he would use force to prove whether or not you had a phone?

this is not a complicated term. Invasive touching= search.

"Excuse me sir do you have a phone on you?" - stop
yes
"Would you please show it me sir"-query
No
*you go to leave, he stops you*- seizure
"Sir I am going to pat you down to make sure you do not have a phone may i do that?"
yes- consent search
no- and he does it anyway, search.
 
Cajungal

Cajungal

Staff member
Just wanna throw this in there: If I'm at a bog supermarket, the only time I'm asked for my receipt is when I have milk or something unbagged in the cart. That, I can understand, because I could have just put it there or forgotten to check it out. I'll usually fold my receipt over and show them exactly where the item is.

As for Fusion's situation: Maybe you showed some people there that they don't have to fold over if they don't want to. I can understand his frustration. People never want to be detached from their cell phones these days. It's like another limb. But I see no problem with what you did.
 
T

TotalFusionOne

this is not a complicated term. Invasive touching= search.

"Excuse me sir do you have a phone on you?" - stop
yes
"Would you please show it me sir"-query
No
*you go to leave, he stops you*- seizure
"Sir I am going to pat you down to make sure you do not have a phone may i do that?"
yes- consent search
no- and he does it anyway, search.
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I... Didn't say it was complicated... I just asked for clarification.

So "Search" involves physically touching me whether asked or not. It becomes an illegal search if I said no, and he had no concrete evidence that I might be breaking the law?
 
M

makare

TotalFusionOne said:
this is not a complicated term. Invasive touching= search.

"Excuse me sir do you have a phone on you?" - stop
yes
"Would you please show it me sir"-query
No
*you go to leave, he stops you*- seizure
"Sir I am going to pat you down to make sure you do not have a phone may i do that?"
yes- consent search
no- and he does it anyway, search.
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I... Didn't say it was complicated... I just asked for clarification.

So "Search" involves physically touching me whether asked or not. It becomes an illegal search if I said no, and he had no concrete evidence that I might be breaking the law?
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if you want to read about searches the case is Terry v Ohio. it becomes a search if you say no, in the situation above definitely illegal. however if he felt that you were threatening him or had a reason to believe you had a gun, then it might become a legal search.
 
Adam

Adam

Green_Lantern;298723][quote=JONJONAUG;298722][quote=Green_Lantern said:
See, now that is a story that would have a nice climax ;)
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Requesting TFO and uppity guard slashfic.[/QUOTE]

seconded[/QUOTE]

Standing in front of the guard station, Stan shifted uncomfortably from foot to foot as the line up of sheep trundled forward to their designated branding station. As Security Officer Alpha for the Florida Social Security Administration Department, Stan was responsible to ensure a calm and orderly flow of dismalness as the dredges of society disgraced his territory with their vile countenances. His eyes darted from form to form, eager for a reason to remove their stench. A cough or a raised voice was enough today to motivate Stan to flex his burly arms and have his security detachment remove the contemptible offender.

Already one of those aforementioned pathetics dared to vomit up their cheap-cigarette stained breath. While other Security Officer Alphas were reluctant to exercise the due care and exercise of protecting the helpless agents behind the glass walls (especially Carlita, a saucy little number that Stan stopped to adjust himself as he thought of punching her ticket, or stamping the back of her papers), Stan afforded his office no impropriety.

Pointing out the expectorating evil, one of his mid-assistants quickly rushed over and pulled the old woman to her feet, pushing her out the door as her coughs subsided into whispers of confusion and contempt.

"It feels good when they whine," Stan thought, looking over at Carlita again, taking extra care to make sure that the flashlight in his pocket was not impeded by his uniform, and taking an extra couple seconds to make sure his other personal flashlight could be turned on. It could, and it was.

Suddenly, a cacophony of shattered notes and broken rhythm burst across the room. A woman, engorged with the self-importance of being the sole cell-phone user in the room, began chatting loudly to her friend, or her son, or her son's friend who she no doubt was seducing with her hyena laughter and pedantic conversation. Stan flexed his burlies again and another assistant quickly yelled out "TURN OFF YOUR PHONES OR YOU WILL BE ESCORTED OUT." Stan winced at the nasal pitch of the announcement and scowled furiously at Dave as the woman left the waiting area. Dave's shorter stature and flappy hooties made for an ineffective Security Officer Junior Grade - his voice just failed him as a man - and Stan was looking forward to pounding the man back into him later.

Another phone goes off. A hardcore black rap talking about bitches and hos or a Britney Spears ringtone, Stan wasn't quite sure. It all sounded like shit to him.

Dave moused out another announcement about the use of cellphones and Stan shook his head.

The same ringtone, louder this time from Stan's left. Sighing like an expecting lover, Stan cleared his throat and bellowed, a thick, strong dark voice, full of machismo and testosterone "Everyone pull out your cellphones to show us that they're turned off."

He whirled quickly to a whimsical snicker on his left.

"Sir, do you have a cell phone?" he asked, staring deep into the eyes of some young punk, a little dark goatee beneath his pouting lips.

"Yes, sir."

"Please show it to me," he responded, adding "Sir" derisively.

"No, sir. I don't consent to being searched. I've done nothing wrong."

Stan's heart quickened. It was a rare occasion where his supreme authority was questioned, and that authority was never questioned in front of his Security Officer Junior Grades, nor sweet, sweet Carlita.

Grabbing the wrist of the hoodie-wearing malcontent, he pulled open the security door to his station and yanked the misdemeaning mister into his private workspace, or "the Dungeon" as the Junior Grades referred to it.

Hoodie hit the ground, sprawled out before Stan.

"I was being easy on you before." Stan growled, rolling up the sleeves of his uniform.

"Now we're going to do it the hard way." The door behind Stan closed softly.

Hoodie turned and looked up at Stan, a smile crossing his lips.

"I like it hard."
 
T

TotalFusionOne

Nice, and DAMN THAT WAS FAST. I'm writing, but I'm only on my seventh paragraph or so.

I'll post my version in the NSFW section in a minute.
 
T

TotalFusionOne

LOL should I? I kinda got bored and discouraged because I wasn't getting feed back. And I hadn't even gotten to the security guard yet. I think that might be it for now.
 
Ross

Ross

Staff member
Normally, I'm one of those "well, it's not that hard... I have nothing to hide" people, but something didn't set right with me...

TotalFusionOne said:
"Sir, show me your phone now or I'm going to lead you out of here in handcuffs."
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And yet he was allowed to stay, even after this threat. The security officer flat-out LIED in order to try to get consent. That's fucked up.
 
C

Chazwozel

TotalFusionOne;298676][quote=hylian;298667][quote=Green_Lantern;298659][quote=hylian said:
I am surprised that more people didn't protest to showing their cell phones. It's like when your at WalMart or Target or somewhere and they ask to see your receipt on the way out. So many people just go ahead and whip out their receipts. I am like why? I didn't make any agreement to let you do any type of search on me. And by law they have no authority to make you show your receipt unless you signed an agreement saying they could (Costco, Sams Club, etc) but so many people do it just to avoid a situation. But it is a violation of our rights that way too many people throw away to save a few seconds.
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Because it is so terrible to show a piece of paper to someone.[/quote]



No it's not terrible to show a piece of paper. What is terrible is the fact that they are practically accusing everyone of shoplifting. Now I know there are people who do steal and places want to keep it to a minimum but I sis not steal anything and yet they act like I did. It's bad enough when I go to a store and I get followed around like I am going to steal something. But when they actually make me show my receipt they are practically calling me a thief to my face.[/QUOTE]

THIS. This is my issue with it. I don't stop at Home Depot anymore because they used to enforce this policy. Every time I do something where I need that kind of store I make sure it's ANYTHING but home depot, and immediately ask to speak to the manager and thank them for NOT making me show my receipt when I exit.

I also try to avoid wal mart when at all possible. I have been asked not to return to one because I kept walking after the buzzer went off and was confronted by the manager in the parking lot. I explained that he didn't have a policy about receipt checking hanging up on the way in, and that he had no right to treat me like a thief but I would have no problem not returning to that location.

Think about it: Would you invite people over to your house and ask them to turn out their pockets to make sure they didn't steal your silverware? It's just good customer service to treat your guests like guests. Not to mention that it's an illegal detention if they say you can't go.[/QUOTE]


I worked at Home Depot for a while during college. I never had to ask for receipts since unlike the other drone cashiers, I actually paid attention to what was going on. This dude comes barreling through the self check out line with a cart full of power tools once. I could tell he was shoplifting, so I asked for his receipt. He said his friend outside had it; he asks me if he can go now. I say no, so he gets all pissed off and walks outside to get it. Never comes back.

It's not that hard to spot shoplifters. I too don't understand why they have to friggin act like airport security at a fucking Wal-Mart. (well I understand why they do it but they don't have the right to).

As to the cell phone rule at the SS office. It's so terrorists can't coordinate their attacks on a SS office in Bumfuck, Idaho. TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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