Export thread

Animation, genre or not?

#1

Jax

Jax

From the '1001 movies you must see before you croak' thread in the Media Madness corner, there was a short debate about whether "Animation" should be a movie genre or not. Since opening that can of worms would completely derail the thread, it wasn't continued, but I find myself asking: Why should it not be a genre?

So far I've only ever heard the producers themselves ("It's not just an animation, it's so much moooore!!!11!1") and, for a lack of a better term, fanboy purists (great way to open a discussion, I know..) make a fuss about it. And I get why, there's still a part of the population that sees animation movies as kiddie stuff and so on. But really, who cares about them? If you feel the need to justify animation movies as a 'real' movie (as opposed to a 'cartoon'), then you'll just be wasting a lot of time at someone who'll likely doesn't even want to understand.

Fact of the matter is: Animated movies (the mainstream ones) do have a lot of similarities that classifies them as a specific genre. Not counting the obvious 'animated' part, the story usually unfolds in the same way: Protagonist is shaken out of his or her daily life and embarks on an epic adventure, often accompanied by funny sidekick(s), trying to chase something or to return to somewhere, with a happily ever after ending.

You can probably shove them all under Comedy and technically it could fit, but I feel it's different and more than that. Same goes for Adventure or Romance.

And yes, there are always exceptions. But I'm talking about the big picture here. I'm also talking about mainstream movies in the example above. Japanese animation for example has elevated anime to such an art form that it is also used for raw action, intense drama or basically every genre. But even then the style and tempo and whatever differs from 'normal' Japanese movies.

If there really is a distinction to be made in the genre, it should probably be: Mainstream animation, Japanese (or "foreign") animation, Classic animation (before the CGI era) and Arthouse animation.
Then again, the same goes for the standard genres (Comedy can be split in slapstick, parody, etc. but people still lump them all on the same genre).

What are your views on it?


#2



Biannoshufu

It's a medium, not a genre, just like black and white film


#3



makare

Genre is more of a storytelling term.


#4

Null

Null

You can have animated adventures, science fiction, drama, comedy, children's movies, and horror. Those are genres, animation is not. There's a hell of a lot of difference between Ralph Bakshi's Fritz the Cat or Wizards, and Care Bears, though both are animated.


#5

drifter

drifter

Calling animation a movie genre is like calling vinyl a music genre.


#6

ElJuski

ElJuski

This is what you guys are trying to pare apart, now? Fuck, guys, there's a difference between the method used to tell a story, and what kind of a story it is.
Next stupid argument: Can dogs look up.
Added at: 22:19
drifter said:
Calling animation a movie genre is like calling vinyl a music genre.
Click to expand...
Yes, thank you. My favorite music is tapes.


#7

GasBandit

GasBandit

I view it more as a modifier, not a genre. It was a genre when it was "only for kids." Now it's matured into there being genres of animation. Animated drama, animated comedy, animated musical, animated action, and so on. And yes, of course, animated children's fare. For all their other wierdness, we mostly have Japan to thank for this development. Otherwise "cartoons are for kids" would probably still be the absolute entrenched truism in the western hemisphere. For some over 30, that will be a prejudice they will harbor unto the grave. But, so many areas of progress only explode when a generation dies off.


#8



makare

drifter said:
Calling animation a movie genre is like calling vinyl a music genre.
Click to expand...
and today that genre would be "hipster"


#9

GasBandit

GasBandit

Gilman Chatsworth said:
Can dogs look up.
Click to expand...
Heh, that discussion always further illustrated that character's idiocy - having often teased my German Shepherd and Golden Retriever from a second story balcony, I can authoritatively state that dogs definitely can look up.

Also: consider wolves howling.


#10



makare

typical gas resorting to the anecdotal.


#11

GasBandit

GasBandit

makare said:
typical gas resorting to the anecdotal.
Click to expand...
Har har.

Heh! Ok, eat some'a this empiricism, ye harlot.



#12



makare

SHOOP!


#13

Null

Null

Well, Big Al was right about the rifle above the bar, though.


#14

GasBandit

GasBandit

makare said:
SHOOP!
Click to expand...


#15



makare

racist!


#16

Null

Null

Honestly, Jax, it sounds like you feel the medium of "animation" can fit under one genre because you have a very narrow band of exposure to the medium. There are a lot of animated movies that aren't remotely comedies, even disallowing anime and cgi film. "Watership Down" leaps immediately to mind, as do a lot of Don Bluth films. Oh, they may have humorous moments or comic relief characters (usually Dom DeLuise), but they aren't comedy by a long way.


#17

strawman

strawman

Genre: A class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like
Media: The means of communication

Animation is both a genre and a media. As a genre it has a particular form and technique. As a media it is one method of moving ideas from one mind to another - from the creator to the consumer.

If you want to classify it as a genre and compare it to other genres, the genre type should be compatible.

Film Genres: Romance, Action, Comedy

Film Genres: Silent, Black and white, color, stop motion, animation

You wouldn't say animation is a genre in the same classification system that you would include romance or action.

However, it appears to be the opinion of the Academy and many others that animated films would not succeed due to their media in voting. There is some disagreement as to whether it's because they aren't as good as non-animated films, or due to judge bias/prejudice against the media.

So they've taken a very practical approach and shoved them off to one side - forcing judges to consider them rather than casting them aside, and giving them a heightened exposure in an event where they might have received little to no exposure otherwise.

This bias extends further to the rest of the industry in that some do not want their works compared to or even mentioned in the same breath as an animated film. So there is political pressure to segregate these films so they don't push other, "more worthy" films out of the nomination phase.

I'd be surprised if the animation industry really wanted to put their best dramas up to academy voting against the best filmed dramas of the year, so it's not entirely one-sided. Don't get me wrong - some animations would compare favorably, but the Academy is a political organization. On a year-to-year basis would you really see animations beating regular film regularly?

/insert THAT'S MEDIA-IST gif here


#18

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Steinman just film schooled our asses.


#19

strawman

strawman

ThatNickGuy said:
Steinman just film schooled our asses.
Click to expand...
Er, not to embarrass you, but your trying-too-hard is showing. Just a little, but might want to tuck that away. Save it for the ladies, you know?


#20

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

To put it simply, Animation is much more diverse internationally that it is in the US, where it gets stuck in the "Animation Age Ghetto" due to it's long history with the Disney company, which has had a stranglehold on the industry here until VERY recently. If you want to see stuff that isn't for kids, I recommend looking at stuff from Europe and Japan.

Some good choices would be:

- When the Wind Blows: A chilling a look at the effects of Nuclear War on an elderly English couple.
- The Illusionist: An aging magician faces falling into obscurity, as he tries to compete with live music shows and movie houses. However, he meets a young woman who believes his tricks are real, whom changes his life forever.
- Tokyo Godfathers: Three homeless people find an abandoned baby on Christmas Eve in Tokyo, which starts a chain of events that forces them to reconsider their lives and choices.
- Grave of the Fireflies: Two children try to live on their own during/maybe after World War 2 in Japan. I dare you not to cry during this movie.


#21

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Genre is a defined dictionary term, as is a medium. You can look either up and find out what they mean. The description of animation in the OP can apply to a lot of live-action films as well, because that is fitting with a lot of romanticized adventure stories, which existed long before film. Disney is not a genre.

I guess 3D is a genre? -_-
Added at: 18:21
Gilman Chatsworth said:
Yes, thank you. My favorite music is tapes.
Click to expand...
Perfect.


#22

ElJuski

ElJuski

And yet, QP, this argument will last several pages as everyone basically says the same exact shit over and over.


#23

Cheesy1

Cheesy1

Gilman Chatsworth said:
Yes, thank you. My favorite music is tapes.
Click to expand...
I don't know why, but that made me laugh pretty hard! Thank you! :rofl:


#24

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Gilman Chatsworth said:
And yet, QP, this argument will last several pages as everyone basically says the same exact shit over and over.
Click to expand...
With suggestions to man up, get therapy, etc.


#25

GasBandit

GasBandit

So how many pages do you two shitheads need to complain about it?


#26

ElJuski

ElJuski

GasBandit said:
So how many pages do you two shitheads need to complain about it?
Click to expand...
Just this first one.


#27

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
So how many pages do you two shitheads need to complain about it?
Click to expand...
There's still room for your tried and true suggestion before we reached page 2.


#28

GasBandit

GasBandit

Here, I think the opposite applies... it needs to be taken out.


#29

Jax

Jax

Quotemander Prime said:
Genre is a defined dictionary term, as is a medium. You can look either up and find out what they mean. The description of animation in the OP can apply to a lot of live-action films as well, because that is fitting with a lot of romanticized adventure stories, which existed long before film. Disney is not a genre.
Click to expand...
gen·re

   [zhahn-ruh; Fr. zhahn-ruh] Show IPA noun, plural -res  [-ruh
z; Fr. -ruh] Show IPA, adjective
noun
1.
a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking the genre of animated film fits in quite well here?

GasBandit said:
I view it more as a modifier, not a genre.
Click to expand...
stienman said:
Genre: A class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like
Media: The means of communication.
Animation is both a genre and a media. As a genre it has a particular form and technique. As a media it is one method of moving ideas from one mind to another - from the creator to the consumer.
Click to expand...
^ This/these right here. Most of the time when I hear objections to pooling Animation under the 'genre' type, the counter argument is mostly that it is a 'medium' type. And I think that is what irks me the most, because while the genre type can be debatable, it sure as hell is not simply a medium. A film is the medium, just like TV, CD, tape, Vinyl, whatever, but I don't see Animation fitting in that list.. ("Check it out, I got this movie on Animation!" :/) And here's another one. Let's say you want to take your buddy to Kung Fu Panda 2. (S)he asks: "What kind of movie is it?" Or to put you even more on the spot: "What kind of genre is it?" What do you answer?

AshburnerX said:
To put it simply, Animation is much more diverse internationally that it is in the US, where it gets stuck in the "Animation Age Ghetto" due to it's long history with the Disney company, which has had a stranglehold on the industry here until VERY recently. If you want to see stuff that isn't for kids, I recommend looking at stuff from Europe and Japan. [...]
Click to expand...
Null said:
Honestly, Jax, it sounds like you feel the medium of "animation" can fit under one genre because you have a very narrow band of exposure to the medium. There are a lot of animated movies that aren't remotely comedies, even disallowing anime and cgi film. [...]
Click to expand...
That's why I specified the mainstream movies, the ones that you can see in almost any theather in the world. I did make a short round with some sub-classifications, but I wanted to focus on the general type of mainstream movies of what the large, general audience sees as 'Animated'.

Which is also a point I wanted to address: Almost the entire movie industry (except Brad Bird and the likes) use Animation as a genre classification, and the general audience has adopted this as well. Rather than going through lengths each time to describe a(n) (animated) movie, you can just call it an Animation and the other person will understand instantly. Through what lengths do you still go to make your point of view clear? I mean in daily life, not on Halforum (which is the nitpicker’s utopia)


#30

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Jax said:
Rather than going through lengths each time to describe a(n) (animated) movie, you can just call it an Animation and the other person will understand instantly
Click to expand...
Except that's bullshit now, with the advent of fully CG rendered movies, which has complicated matters even further.


#31

strawman

strawman

Is Avatar animation?
Roger Rabbit?
Added at: 09:01
Jax said:
A film is the medium, just like TV, CD, tape, Vinyl, whatever, but I don't see Animation fitting in that list.. ("Check it out, I got this movie on Animation!" :/)
Click to expand...
That's silly. Oil and watercolor are mediums. So are canvas and paper.
How the film is moved from one location to another is a medium classification, sure, but that doesn't mean that animation is not a medium as well:
Media: Stop motion, live action, animation, mixed media.
Media: DVD, Bluray, VHS, 70mm
No, you wouldn't put animation as a medium of the second category, but you also wouldn't put DVD as a medium of the first category.
Animation is both a media and genre, and depending on what you are categorizing it might be neither. Context is key.


#32



SeraRelm

Jax said:
Let's say you want to take your buddy to Kung Fu Panda 2. (S)he asks: "What kind of movie is it?" Or to put you even more on the spot: "What kind of genre is it?" What do you answer?
Click to expand...
"A kids movie that perfectly copies the lessons of the first in a less imaginative fashion."
It's also not a traditionally animated movie, it's a CG animated movie. When it comes down to it, I use "animated" as an additional definer for a movie if I feel it's worth classifying as a film at all. "Akira was a great animated sci-fi film" or "Batman: Year One was an amazing animated action film". On the other hand, my bias toward churned out crap (opinion) leads me to define other "films" in a less savory fashion. (I'm looking at you shonen)


#33

Bowielee

Bowielee

On a semi-related tangent, I had a similar argument about whether or not pop music is a genre.

I view pop as more a classification as it can be from any genre. There can be pop rap, pop metal, pop easy listening etc...

As such, it's not it's own genre per se.


#34

GasBandit

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
On a semi-related tangent, I had a similar argument about whether or not pop music is a genre.
I view pop as more a classification as it can be from any genre. There can be pop rap, pop metal, pop easy listening etc...
As such, it's not it's own genre per se.
Click to expand...
I would disagree - there is a certain similarity between songs dubbed "pop" that don't necessarily cross into other genres (though there's always overlap). Think of the pop divas, the boy bands - they're not rock, they're not techno, they're not rap or blues or R&B or alternative or jazz or country.. they're pop. Sometimes they do overlap a bit into other areas (or other areas overlap into them, like limp bizkit or nickelback), but there's a vast multitude of things I would call "pop" and nothing else.
Of course, it's all my opinion there, though some others seem to share it... but that's the trouble with music. It's allllll subjective.
Added at: 10:49
And, please note this has nothing to do with what they call stuff in radio. The radio format labels are bizarre and arcane.


#35

strawman

strawman

GasBandit said:
there is a certain similarity between songs dubbed "pop"
Click to expand...


#36



Biannoshufu

Animation classification: The New Steak.


#37

strawman

strawman

Biannoshufu said:
Animation classification: The New Steak.
Click to expand...
Well done, Biannoshufu, well done.


#38

GasBandit

GasBandit

stienman said:
Click to expand...
Pachelbel's canon: The progenitor of all pop.


#39

strawman

strawman

GasBandit said:
Pachelbel's canon: The progenitor of all pop.
Click to expand...
No lie!



#40

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Protagonist is shaken out of his or her daily life and embarks on an epic adventure, often accompanied by funny sidekick(s), trying to chase something or to return to somewhere, with a happily ever after ending.
Click to expand...
The Mummy
Transformers
Willow
The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad
The Dark Crystal
Star Wars
Hello Dolly
Jumanji
Back to the Future
The Goonies
The Monster Squad


All animated films! I'm sure we'll be able to add John Carter to the list when that comes out, and really any film following the Joseph Campbell "Hero with a Thousand Faces" archetype, so long as it has a funny sidekick.


Top