It's a Xanatos Gambit becaue it wasn't his first plan. His first was to take over Earth the way he wanted. The back up win was being sent to Asgard free of charge.
[Movies] Avengers
- Thread starter evilmike
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But how does taking over Earth help him get the Gauntlet? If that in the end was what Thanos wanted as implied by the article? That means getting to Asgard has to be a main part of the plan. That mean Loki would have to know he would lose, thus still not a Xanato's Gambit since actually conquering Earth may have ended up becoming a loss, since it would assure Odin would never allow him back to Asgard again.
P.S. Also, one of Loki's defining characteristics in the comics is he almost always gets away after his schemes fail. He always goes on to trick another day from his little place in Asgard he likes to hide out. I see him knowing that Thor was going to take him back to Asgard as just another scheme to save himself having to suffer some real consequence for his actions, not as some other "victory" in the grand scheme. If just escaping consequence is a Xanatos Gambit, then nearly every comic that has him in it has that event play out.
How is the Gauntlet his backup win, when the events prior to getting taken to Asgard invariably hurt his chances of claiming said Gauntlet? Why would Thanos care about Earth at all if this entire time it was him wanting Loki to get the Gauntlet?
Can you not see the problem with this? Either he wants Earth, or he wants the Gauntlet. Getting the Gauntlet would have improved his chances of taking Earth after the fact then attempting to take over Earth helped his chances in getting the Gauntlet. Attempting to take over Earth became a detriment to his chance for the Gauntlet.
Again, it's more likely Loki is happy because he knows he once again slipped out of a possible bad situation (Thanos will likely not attack Asgard), rather then coming up with some weird plan, that in the end, hurt his chances for claiming the Gauntlet. Occam's Razor applies here.
Ok I'll simplify it cause you're getting confused:
Xanatos Gambit = You win even if you lose.
Win #1 - Defeat the Avengers and take over Earth.
Win #2 - Lose to the Avengers and get taken to Asgard to get the Infinity Gauntlet.
He still wins, even when he loses, therefore: Xanatos Gambit.
Xanatos Gambit = You win even if you lose.
Win #1 - Defeat the Avengers and take over Earth.
Win #2 - Lose to the Avengers and get taken to Asgard to get the Infinity Gauntlet.
He still wins, even when he loses, therefore: Xanatos Gambit.
I know what a Xanato's Gambit is, but I think where you and I are getting a bit lost is that for it to be a true one, all plausible outcomes have to benefit the mastermind. I don't see the events of attacking Earth as a "benefit" to his secondary goal of attempting for the Infinite Gauntlet, but instead becomes a detriment to his secondary goal.
For it to be a true Xanato's Gambit, then he would organize the events in such a way that, even if he lost on Earth, he would have no resistance in then claiming the Gauntlet, so that his first plan actually was laid out to only improve the chances of the second plan should the first fail.
Since his first plan was a DETRIMENT to his secondary plan, it was not a benefit. That is not even getting into the fact that this is mostly fanon until proven otherwise.
P.S. I will relent that it could end up happening, and we may learn more that makes it a much cleaning win/win, I just don't see it right now based on what we saw in The Avengers.
For it to be a true Xanato's Gambit, then he would organize the events in such a way that, even if he lost on Earth, he would have no resistance in then claiming the Gauntlet, so that his first plan actually was laid out to only improve the chances of the second plan should the first fail.
Since his first plan was a DETRIMENT to his secondary plan, it was not a benefit. That is not even getting into the fact that this is mostly fanon until proven otherwise.
P.S. I will relent that it could end up happening, and we may learn more that makes it a much cleaning win/win, I just don't see it right now based on what we saw in The Avengers.
It wasn't a detriment. It was a win no matter the outcome. Even the loss spurred a win for Plan #2.
Example of Proof:
Xanatos wanted a perfect fighting brigade of Armored Goliaths. His plan, to bring back the castle, wake the Gargoyles and trick them into helping him.
Win#1 - His Armored Prototypes won.
Win#2 - Goliath killed the Prototypes, but he still gathered insurmountable data he used to create better future versions.
Sure he could have just used a scouting robot to watch them fight for years and gather data that way, but he'd have lost by spending too much time and money on the situation. So therefore, even though his first plan was detrimental to the over all goal, it still had a win it's loss.
Example of Proof:
Xanatos wanted a perfect fighting brigade of Armored Goliaths. His plan, to bring back the castle, wake the Gargoyles and trick them into helping him.
Win#1 - His Armored Prototypes won.
Win#2 - Goliath killed the Prototypes, but he still gathered insurmountable data he used to create better future versions.
Sure he could have just used a scouting robot to watch them fight for years and gather data that way, but he'd have lost by spending too much time and money on the situation. So therefore, even though his first plan was detrimental to the over all goal, it still had a win it's loss.
Like I added to the other post, I will relent that we can learn more and it may end up becoming one. I just don't see one right now, because the events leading up to it may have caused "Plan 2" to be impossible.
Having a win/win only works if the second event actually becomes a win. Right now everything implied about Loki and his plans is conjecture until he has the Gauntlet in his hands.
Having a win/win only works if the second event actually becomes a win. Right now everything implied about Loki and his plans is conjecture until he has the Gauntlet in his hands.
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SeraRelm
A Thanos gambit.
I will also be the first to say I was completely wrong if it turns out not.
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SeraRelm
If he wins? Innumerable deaths. If he dies?
"Hey baby."
Well if he did conquer Earth then Asgard would have to respond in some way... or he could even just use the cube to open a door to Asgard...
Or it's not a Xanatos, he always planned on losing because otherwise Thanos would be the one taking over instead of him, and it's all just a long con.
Man, i hope so, a villain that's actually that sneaky is so rare...
Also, someone needs to draw Joss Whedon's attention to this... just in case.
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Soliloquy
I don't think a Xanatos gambit requires that both win conditions are exactly the same.
Loki loses the battle: He wins because even though he doesn't rule earth, he gets to go to Asgard.
Loki wins the battle: He wins because even though he doesn't get to Asgard, he's now the ruler of earth.
He comes out on top either way, even if the ways in which he comes out on top differ.
Loki loses the battle: He wins because even though he doesn't rule earth, he gets to go to Asgard.
Loki wins the battle: He wins because even though he doesn't get to Asgard, he's now the ruler of earth.
He comes out on top either way, even if the ways in which he comes out on top differ.
The don't, but both actually have to be "wins".
This, so far, is not a win. He went back a prisoner, one that will likely be kept on a tight leash. We can argue "That's what he WANTS you to think!" till the cow comes home, but so far there is nothing actually hinting to this being true other then people seeing the Infinite Gauntlet and having a geekgasm. Let's not form a hypothetical "win" out of a bunch of theory and fanon.
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Soliloquy
1) We have seen that the Infitity gauntlet, which is known for being used by Thanos, is in Asgard.
2) We have seen that Thanos is more than likely to be the next villain.
3) We can easily infer that the Aliens Loki was working with are Thanos' minions.
4) We have seen Loki's smirk at the end of the movie before returning to Asgard.
$50 says the next movie involves Loki stealing the Infinity Gauntlet from Asgard. Deal?
Deal, but only if we learn it was the plan the whole time, and not a new one formulated in the movie.
Is Thor getting another movie soon? I'd wager any after effects of The Avengers would be felt there first. Loki would try to conquer Asgard again, fail, and the after credits scene would be of someone secreting the Infinity Gauntlet to Thanos. That's assuming they use the same formula for the next few movies.
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Soliloquy
Hmm... all right. But if it's ambiguous as to whether the plan was new or pre-planned, then no one gets any money from anyone. Sound good?
Sure. Why not.
Thor 2 = November 2013.
So, reading around a bit, apparently Iron Man 3 is going to be heavily based on Extremis, which is pretty good stuff....but then, the fuck is up with Ironcoldbloodpatriot and the other villain, who I think is supposed to be Firepower and then there's Ben Kingsley, who is also apparently playing a villain.
Gonna be a bigger clusterfuck than Iron Man 2 I think.
Gonna be a bigger clusterfuck than Iron Man 2 I think.
Spider-Man 3 failed because the neither the Director nor the Execs were willing to back down about the kind of movie they wanted to make.
Okay, then lesson two. The director is in charge of making the movie. Studio execs get to sign the checks, and that's it.
Keep in mind that the studio in this case is still Marvel Studios, so we at least have that going for us. I'm thinking that it would be wise to wait for more than a vague plot outline, one set photo, and the word of the person who took that photo before we start condemning the movie. For all we know, the person who took the picture is wrong and the Iron Patriot armor is only there for a joke. Seriously, I can picture this Tony Stark painting his armor up like Captain America to emcee a Fourth of July parade or something. Dude can have robots build one in only a few hours. In his basement.
Or too long, depending on which camp you're in.
One of the main issues was that Sam Rami simply doesn't like Venom and if he had his way, he probably never would have appeared in the series at all.
On a semi-but-not-really-related note, the Lizard in the new Spider-Man movie looks like ass.
Spider-Man 3 had a villain. He worked for Sony.
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Soliloquy
If execs realized that, 99% of the problems with Hollywood would be solved.
Cleopatra and Heaven's Gate (and quite a few others) is the reason that most directors do not get complete control.
He shouldn't have been in the film, the church stuff with Brock getting it should have been a mid credits scene...
Then in the next film Spidey fights some b-list guys like Shocker and Rhino for half the film while someone who doesn't set of his spidey-sense is stalking him etc...
Can we all just admit that the only reason we're getting a new Spider-Man, Wolverine, and X-Men movie is that NO ONE wants to give up the rights and let Marvel/Disney make BILLIONS with an Avenger's crossover?
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