Export thread

http://www.theaterhopper.com/2012/01/09/one-to-grow-on/

(See the blog post...)

I know, right? After 10 years, Brazelton will be announcing his own demise. Or at least that of his comic.

Kinda sad, I think.

totally forgot that Brazelton was a poster. Or had a comic.

He hasn't been here for well over two years. The references to pulling a bandaid off are interesting - perhaps he took to heart the lesson learned here about ditching your community without warning.

Also interesting that he didn't suggest what he was going to do next - if anything. If he had something in mind, he'd be better off teasing his fans so they make the transition to his new work and he doesn't have to rebuild from nothing. Sounds like he's simply giving it up altogether, which matches his essential problem - he can no longer spare 4-6 hours a week to maintain it to the level he requires. Or, in other words, he feels there are other areas in his life that would use those 4-6 hours better than the comic.

I will mourn the loss of a forgettable, slightly below average comic that I had forgotten was still going

Hate to see it end. Although not many creators can boast 10 years. **Raises my glass to Tom** Enjoy your ride into the sunset.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I will mourn the loss of a forgettable, slightly below average comic that I had forgotten was still going

Click to expand...

Then again, if you followed this rule, you'd never post.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I will mourn the loss of a forgettable, slightly below average comic that I had forgotten was still going

Click to expand...

You keep mistaking snark for wit. You aren't anywhere near as clever as you think.

Actually, I found his line to be fucking hilarious.
Added at: 01:01
Also, who the fuck decided that everything on the internet should be all handshakes and hugs?

Just because you can be negative, abrasive, and busting chops...doesn't mean you have to be.

ThatNickGuy said:

Just because you can be negative, abrasive, and busting chops...doesn't mean you have to be.

Click to expand...

uhhuh and

If everyone always agreed we'd have a pretty boring forum.

IIRC, Theater Hopper has been the topic of many forum arguments before...

ThatNickGuy said:

Just because you can be negative, abrasive, and busting chops...doesn't mean you have to be.

Click to expand...

Just because you can make a bra out of bacon doesn't mean you have to.

ElJuski said:

Actually, I found his line to be fucking hilarious.
Added at: 01:01
Also, who the fuck decided that everything on the internet should be all handshakes and hugs?

Click to expand...

Your comments tend to be funny.

Charlie's aren't... I'm not even sure they exist outside our collective minds. I tell my wife to log on so she can see the kind of shit he posts, but all she sees are the posts arguing around him, and says we must be imagining some strange annoyance, like that little green guy from the Flintstones.

Gusto said:

If everyone always agreed we'd have a pretty boring forum.

Click to expand...

But there's a difference between disagreement and being a dick.

Yep.

bhamv3 said:

But there's a difference between disagreement and being a dick.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the 'dick' is usually the guy that's right.

Mathias said:

Yeah, the 'dick' is usually the guy that's right.

Click to expand...

And usually the guy who no one cares whether he's right or not.

Removed.

I'm glad this thread went off-topic so fast. I never read Theater Hopper, so I wouldn't be able to contribute if we'd stuck to the OP.

Good luck to Tom and whatever he decides to do next. I always found him to be an agreeable sort.

Tom's a good guy and I hope he tries something new. I was never a big fan of TH but I think he can make something great if he sticks to it.

I think the difference is that I'm not sure if Charlie was around when Tom was. So he doesn't know Tom as a person but just as a random comic artist. A lot of us know Tom as a person and poster so that tends to color our perception of him. Would I have read Theater Hopper had it not been Tom? Probably not.

Not to be a total creeper, but I saw the referral links in my stats reporting and decided to poke my head in here to say "Hi."

I'm not particularly bothered if Charlie Don't Surf found Theater Hopper forgettable or slightly below average. But I was kind of scratching my head over steinman's comments about "ditching your community without warning." What exactly does that reference?

Dave gave me the option to have a Theater Hopper forum here a few years ago - that much I recall. But I ultimately decided not to take him up on it. If you're feeling "ditched" because I haven't posted here in two years, I don't understand why. I wasn't exactly posting every day to begin with?

That said, having gone full-blown creeper and searching for references to TH at Halforums, I'm very pleased to see you've kept the "DAMN YOU, TOM BRAZELTON" reference alive. Maybe I deserve it in a more literal sense?

Good luck to Tom. Theater Hopper wasn't my favorite comic on the web but I read it occasionally like a bunch of others I peruse. He was a really good guy and I miss him being around here.

Nah, Tom, you're fine. We still love ya. You're even a thread prefix now!

We're sad to see you go and wonder what's next for ya.

WHOA. BRAZELTON APPEARS.

Who said his name 3 times in a mirror?

Well, you know, now that I've announced the end of the comic I've got, like ALL this free time.

HA!!! I know you stopped because of work and family, you dork. I've been following your Facebook and blog for years.

But having said that you're still an artist and like to create.

Well, yeah. I mean, it wasn't like the ties were cut off completely.

Tom Brazelton said:

Well, you know, now that I've announced the end of the comic I've got, like ALL this free time.

Click to expand...

If you want me to pose for a series of classy nude erotic drawings you can just come out and say it.

The reference to ditching your community is, I believe, referring to Kurtz. Pretty sure it's not about you ditching us or anything like that, Tom.

Welcome back, by the way.

Espy said:

If you want me to pose for a series of classy nude erotic drawings you can just come out and say it.

Click to expand...

I will draw you like one of my French girls.

bhamv3 said:

The reference to ditching your community is, I believe, referring to Kurtz. Pretty sure it's not about you ditching us or anything like that, Tom.

Click to expand...

OhhhhHHHHhhh! I forgot about that controversy! My apologies. I misunderstood.

Well, yes. In that case, it was very much my intent not to leave my fans in the lurch. I've seen a few web comics come and go and it always rankled my hackles when they would just evaporate without notice. I didn't want to to that to the people who had invested in the comic for the last 10 years.

Mathias said:

Yeah, the 'dick' is usually the guy that's right.

Click to expand...

Considering how many times you've called Charlie a "completely out of touch with reality dipshit" I find that reply hilarious.


Oh and *wave* Hey Tom.

I clicked the thread actually since I thought it meant something uh, horrible happened to him.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I clicked the thread actually since I thought it meant something uh, horrible happened to him.

Click to expand...

Something horrible did happen, he was subjected to Halforums again.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!*


*eventually

Ravenpoe said:

Something horrible did happen, he was subjected to Halforums again.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!*


*eventually

Click to expand...

Some less eventual than others.

Tom Brazelton said:

OhhhhHHHHhhh! I forgot about that controversy! My apologies. I misunderstood.

Well, yes. In that case, it was very much my intent not to leave my fans in the lurch. I've seen a few web comics come and go and it always rankled my hackles when they would just evaporate without notice. I didn't want to to that to the people who had invested in the comic for the last 10 years.

Click to expand...

No, I think you're doing things right (although technically there is no wrong - it is your comic after all). There are many examples of comic artists ceasing without comment, or ceasing with an abrupt "bye", but I think you've given the fans more than enough warning and time for closure.

It wasn't in reference to your time (or lack of ) here - we've missed you, but you've got a lot on your plate.

I hope you can continue your creative efforts in a way that satisfies you, even if it's not another public effort. I'm sure you've examined your priorities from every angle, but do keep in mind that you need to show your kids that you also pursue your passions, even if only as a side hobby.

Good luck!

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I clicked the thread actually since I thought it meant something uh, horrible happened to him.

Click to expand...

Y'see! You do care about me!

Face it. I'm adorable.

Hey, I never said I didn't like you or anything! You have pretty solid taste in movies, I did read the comic for a while years ago. Just drifted away

Dude, it's cool. No worries.

Tom, you should just randomly show up and announce celebrity deaths...you know, now that you have all this free time.

ThatNickGuy said:

Click to expand...

Removed

Mathias said:

I'm generally referring to the thin-skinned ninnies around here who mistake confidence for "being a dick".

Click to expand...

No, we pretty much know the difference. We have a lot of examples to draw from which help us differentiate the two, right here on the board.

I don't agree with a bunch of what you've said, but "thin skinned" hits the nail on the head.

Removed.

Removed

ElJuski said:

I don't agree with a bunch of what you've said, but "thin skinned" hits the nail on the head.

Click to expand...

Don't agree about squirrels?
Added at: 20:03

ThatNickGuy said:

STFU, Chaz.

Click to expand...

Mathias said:

^
Thin-skinned ninny.

Click to expand...

STOP IT.

If you must attack someone... choose Charlie. Otherwise, aren't you guys busy doing this in the Superman Spider-man thread? And the dad thread?

I don't know much about blind squirrels, really

Removed.

Removed

Just an observation but I think Mathias has gone full Chaz.

EDIT: Removed.

Shegokigo said:

Just an observation but I think Mathias has gone full Chaz.

Click to expand...

Removed.

I'm guessing problems with the Mrs/family again Chaz?

Removed

EDIT: Removed.

I'm guessing family issues or his wife's health again.

Removed

EDIT: Removed.

Removed.

Hey I'm not judging, I'm just trying to figure out why you've gone completely backwards.

Mathias said:

I suggest jumping off a bridge.

Click to expand...

And I'm done.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/52547

They are moving forward with the live action Star Wars TV series. This is the correct thread, right? Hell, these threads are so derailed I don't think it matters anymore.

I for one welcome a nice finished conclusion to a comic, good on you sir

Man, what the fuck happened?

Brazelton happened.

Good this is on a new page ---> back to Brazelton.

well you know, when brazelton appears, the forums cant help but go wild and crazy. its like a full moon!

Removed

I think it would be funny if you were saying Removed on purpose.

REMOVED, BITCHES!

(Not to be confused with "Removed bitches" which has a different connotation.)

I'm glad to hear you've all had your daily movement.

REDACTED!


I just want to feel like I'm a part of something, because fuck I missed a lot.

SO HOW BOUT THAT BRAZELTON CHAP.

Quotemander Prime said:

SO HOW BOUT THAT BRAZELTON CHAP.

Click to expand...

He divided by zero until he got an arrow to the knee

Guys, don't mess with Brazelton, otherwise he'll kill a celebrity. Next thing you know, we'll be hearing about how Jackie Chan was found dead in a ditch in rural Australia, with strange red welts along his left leg and a mysterious grin on his face.

I wasn't online last night. Checked in this morning and apparently everyone went ape shit?

Sorry about that, mates.

It's not apeshit. It's just another day. They kissed and made up. Mods didn't even have to get involved!!

I JUST WANT THE WHOLE WORLD TO HUG!!

I dunno, QP. It's like you went to the loo at a wedding, and when you came back, everyone was gone, the cake was smashed on the floor and Uncle Bernie was taking a whizz into the punch.

But anyhoo... Tom, I admit being a sporadic reader at best, but it sounds like you are making a sound, reasonable decision based on your principles. I can't have anything but solemn approval for that. Then again, now that you have all this free time, there's always room for our resident celebrity Grim Reaper...
Added at: 19:09

Tom Brazelton said:

I JUST WANT THE WHOLE WORLD TO HUG!!

Click to expand...

Awww... C'mere, you big lummox, you... *Finn hug*

One of us! One of us!

Sometimes Brazleton and I bump into each other on Disqus/TheDailyWh.at. It always feels kinda awkward, like seeing someone you went to junior high with but you lost touch and don't know if you're supposed to wave or even acknowledge them or what.

Also: First time I'm seeing this thread just now (work's being a bitch again, I know, what else is new, yeah?)... but I got a chuckle from a page and a half of

Removed

Removed

Removed

Shego: Oh yeah?

Removed

Removed.

North_Ranger said:

I dunno, QP. It's like you went to the loo at a wedding, and when you came back, everyone was gone, the cake was smashed on the floor and Uncle Bernie was taking a whizz into the punch.

Click to expand...

SIMILES?!

Mods could have deleted the posts but it was more fun to leave them in and make people wonder...

Dave said:

Mods could have deleted the posts but it was more fun to leave them in and make people wonder...

Click to expand...

Some tiny hints would've been nice, though. Kinda in the same way that in the wedding simile there's a lobster hanging from the chandelier and you go "Now how the hell did that get in there?"

While I like the "REMOVED" label, I kinda wish they went with "REDACTED". I don't know why I find that amusing, really.

North_Ranger said:

simile

Click to expand...

>:O

Krisken said:

While I like the "REMOVED" label, I kinda wish they went with "REDACTED". I don't know why I find that amusing, really.

Click to expand...

Added at: 19:29

Allen who is Quiet said:

>:O

View attachment 3999

Click to expand...

Calm down, dawg. You're acting crazy like a cat on catnip and cocaine.

Skip to 1:00

It's all because Mathias is a big stinky doo-doo head. Yeah, that's right, I went there.

Heh, but on topic: I honestly was never a big follower of Theatre Hopper, but when I did visit the site, I would catch up with it and go back. I've always enjoyed it when I did. Plus, Brazelton's a stand up guy, which is kind of a rarity among webcomics, so I tip my hat to him.

ThatNickGuy said:

honestly

Click to expand...

HONESTY?!


Added at: 12:21

North_Ranger said:

Calm down, dawg. You're acting crazy like a cat on catnip and cocaine.

Click to expand...

AND A SIMILE THAT I MISSED?!

I saw everything, but I'm not telling.

Fine, fine.

Mathias was being a man.

Nick was being a Muppet.

a muppet of a man!

ThatNickGuy said:

Plus, Brazelton's a stand up guy, which is kind of a rarity among webcomics, so I tip my hat to him.

Click to expand...

Is it? I must be running in the wrong circles. Most of the webcomic folks I talk to are pretty cool.

That could either be rose-colored glasses or I just learned how to dodge the jerkier members of the "community."

Quotemander Prime said:

Fine, fine.

Mathias was being a man.

Nick was being a Muppet.

Click to expand...

A very manly Muppet!
Added at: 13:46

Tom Brazelton said:

Is it? I must be running in the wrong circles. Most of the webcomic folks I talk to are pretty cool.

That could either be rose-colored glasses or I just learned how to dodge the jerkier members of the "community."

Click to expand...

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think I spoke out of turn. I think I'm mostly thinking of Kurtz (though he's calmed in the last few years) and Tim Buckley. You're right: most of them are pretty good people.

I'm sure cartoonists are good to other cartoonists, but very few I would consider customer service experts. Delays in shipping products, horrible community management skills, unprofessional social media. There's a reason Khoo is so widely regarded, and it's because he allows the PA guys to focus on the stuff they're good at.

Yeah, but that's not really a fair comparison. Most webcomic folks don't have the resources that Penny Arcade has. They're frequently one-man operations where the cartoonist serves as the marketing, PR and customer service rep. They're probably working a day job on top of that and some of them have families. Oh, yeah. They also have to make the comic.

That kind of commitment is overwhelming to a lot of people. Frankly, I don't know how I managed to keep most of those plates spinning for nearly a decade. I've dropped a couple, of course. Community management being one of them. But I think I've managed to retain my core supporters. It's just a matter of prioritizing what you enjoy doing and what you're good at. It's a bandwidth issues. Some guys are only good at the comic and that's it.

Incidentally, I'm not making excuses for shoddy customer service, community management, etc. etc... I'm just a little more understanding of it having been one of the sleep-deprived, unwashed ilk.

Truthfully, 99% of the fans are just as understanding so long as you don't abuse their trust. It's just a matter of keeping the lines of communication open, being honest and keeping your cool. Not hard.

Incidentally, I've seen Khoo speak and he talks about how other webcomics laments that they don't have "their own Khoo." It pisses him off - and rightly so. Khoo greases the wheels, but no one would be attracted to Penny Arcade if Mike and Jerry weren't producing a high quality product.

Tom Brazelton said:

Incidentally, I've seen Khoo speak and he talks about how other webcomics laments that they don't have "their own Khoo." It pisses him off - and rightly so. Khoo greases the wheels, but no one would be attracted to Penny Arcade if Mike and Jerry weren't producing a high quality product.

Click to expand...

I think there's something to be said for every Walt having their own Roy.

Tom Brazelton said:

Incidentally, I've seen Khoo speak and he talks about how other webcomics laments that they don't have "their own Khoo." It pisses him off - and rightly so. Khoo greases the wheels, but no one would be attracted to Penny Arcade if Mike and Jerry weren't producing a high quality product.

Click to expand...

If you want to be treated as a 'business professional' for your work, you have to act like a 'business professional'. I would never suggest that each comic creator finds their own Khoo because, frankly, a good business manager is just as rare as a good comic creator. I would suggest that they learn from the work Khoo does, or even look outside of comics in general to customer service companies to see what those (Oh god, I'm going to sound like an MBA) best practices are. At the end of the day, your "value" if we measure it against income, is intrinsically linked to the interactions you have with your customers. If your customers are advertising agencies putting marketing on your website, it's up to you to continue putting up content to drive eyeballs to your site. If your customers are people buying your printed book and other material, it's up to you to ensure you have a professional production environment for getting those goods out to the people asking for them.

Yet, as you well know, many people don't do comicking as a full time job. It's something put together because 1) right now they have capacity for it or 2) it's something they've always wanted to do or 3) it's their first step into larger things. Eventually circumstances change and unless they're prepared to do it full time, they should have the wherewithal to recognize that at one point they may have to take either a step back, or to be the grown up and say "Hey, it's been great, but it's time to step away now."

I cannot applaud you enough for 10 years of TH, and being professional enough to step away in a manner that recognizes how dependant your success was on the community you built.

I agree with everything you've said. There are learning opportunities everywhere. Part of being a professional is having a interest in those topics and a proclivity to integrate them. And you're absolutely right - if you're out of your depth, you need to learn when to scale back.

I think we might be talking about two different groups of people, though. There are comic creators who WANT to be professional and fail at even the most rudimentary customer service. Then there are those who are just kind of dicking around, stumble onto a formula for content that works and kind of get swept up into producing books, selling ad space, etc. because they get the impression that's what they're supposed to do.

If you want to be treated like a professional, you absolutely have to act like one. But I think for the majority of webcomic creators, the thought doesn't even enter their minds.

I mean, look at the number of creators who are living on their work - you could probably count them on your hands. Those who turn a mild profit like I managed to for a few years are maybe a couple dozen more. The majority of webcomics are either just making enough in ad revenue to cover hosting or they're throwing money down a hole (willingly, I'm certain, because they love doing it.)

I think we've got four different groups of creators then. (Yes, there's actually an infinite number of groups, but for simplicities sake, let's narrow it down)

1) Creators who want to be professional and succeed because of it.
2) Creators who want to be professional and fail because they cannot be.
3) Creators who dick around and succeed despite it.
4) People who dick around and fail because of it.

In a perfect world, everyone would fall into 1 and 3.
In an average world, everyone would fall into every category equally.

Unfortunately, like you said, there's only a handful who fall into #1. A larger group in #3. And then 90% in #4.

#2 concerns me and you brought this up as well. There are comic creators who WANT to be professional and fail at even the most rudimentary customer service.

If not for Khoo, I think P-A might have ended up in #2.

I think PA might have succeeded despite itself only because the content is so strong. But they wouldn't be doing charities and conventions without Khoo, that much is for sure.

Through the lens of history - knowing what we know now about Mike and Jerry both having a certain level of social anxiety - customer service wouldn't have been their primary focus or interest.

Tom Brazelton said:

I think PA might have succeeded despite itself only because the content is so strong. But they wouldn't be doing charities and conventions without Khoo, that much is for sure.

Through the lens of history - knowing what we know now about Mike and Jerry both having a certain level of social anxiety - customer service wouldn't have been their primary focus or interest.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone goes into business hoping to knuckle under to a rabid customer base

I don't think Mike or Jerry really considered Penny Arcade "a business." Didn't they sign their book rights away before getting into a legal wrestling match to re-obtain them?

Tom Brazelton said:

I don't think Mike or Jerry really considered Penny Arcade "a business." Didn't they sign their book rights away before getting into a legal wrestling match to re-obtain them?

Click to expand...

Yes, they did.

Twice.

Tom Brazelton said:

I don't think Mike or Jerry really considered Penny Arcade "a business." Didn't they sign their book rights away before getting into a legal wrestling match to re-obtain them?

Click to expand...

I think they intended to make a run of it at a business at one point before Khoo stepped up.

From Wired

Holkins and Krahulik were booking their own ads and charging "about 98 percent less than they should have been," Khoo says. They had signed away book publishing rights to a guy who moved to Alaska and refused to pay them. They hooked up with a dubious Net company and nearly lost the rights to their intellectual property and the name Penny Arcade. When Khoo met them, they were living off donations from readers and contemplating the prospect of day jobs again. "Jerry and I are good at making comics and being funny... and that's it," Krahulik concedes.

Click to expand...

I hope that other artists use the PA example as a "What not to do"; at least to begin with