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I've made some posts elsewhere so I'm sure there are a few that know a part of my situation.
As of January I'm able to see my 7-year-old daughter every other Saturday and Sunday for 7 hours each day. This was interrupted for a few months due to COVID but I spoke to my daughter a few times a week via facetime to keep in contact. Recently we started up my visits again.
When I see her we play boardgames & dolls & legos & Video games, watch movies, and bake/cook together. She says she has a good time. We'd go out and do more away from the house, but COVID complicates that.
My problem is that I worry I'm not connecting with her. My ex alienated her from me all last year (I got to see her once a month for like 2 hours) and manipulated her into referring to my ex's boyfriend as "dad" within a month or two of my daughter meeting him.
During my visits my daughter rarely calls me dad (she usually refers to me by my first name), and I never hear her say she loves me (not even "I love you too" when I say it to her). I feel like she purposely withholds saying these things because she doesn't feel like she's allowed to say them.
Honestly I don't even feel like a dad anymore. I just kinda feel like "the cool uncle" or something. I would love to ask my daughter if she loves me, but that doesn't seem appropriate to ask. Nor does making her call me dad instead of by my first name.
I'm going to be asking for more time to be negotiated by my lawyers. Sadly my job doesn't give me a lot of freedom during the week since I work overnights. But I'd like to get overnights on my weekends as well as phone calls during the week.

Advice wise I'd just like to know what I can do. Is there anything I can do to connect with her better. Anyway we can discuss my concerns about her being alienated with me without putting her into a awkward situation or laying any blame on anyone (including her mother). I know this stuff takes time, but its always hard to tell if things are progressing positively instead of negatively when things are slow going either way.
There was one positive thing during my last visit. While playing Animal Crossing with me she did call me dad. She also told me that my animal crossing "me" was her "me's" dad too. That made me feel better.
Just seeing if anyone here has any suggestions or thoughts on the subject.

I'm so sorry, especially that shitty behavior your ex is exhibiting. That's pretty much rule #1 of how NOT to act when you divorce and share kids. The best I can advise is 1) keep doing what your doing and make as much time with her as possible. As she gets older and more independent, she will be able to parse your dedication and your ex's manipulation. It's frustrating, but you need to play the long game. And 2) ask her about her interests. Let her talk about her favorite shows, activities, toys, books, etc. It will help you plan how to spend your time. I could never give a damn about cars and automotives, but the way it lights up my son, I've made a point to learn and give him as many resources as I can to nuture his interest. If there's anything she's always going to need, it's stability and someone she knows will support her and her interests.

First bit of advice: Remember that no matter what labels you give each other or which are given to you by others, you are still father and daughter and this can never be changed.

Next, in English, "Dad" does not always mean "Father." It is usually a term used to denote the male figure who positively influenced you the most while growing up. If she is calling someone else "Dad," then this may mainly be because you only spend 7hrs/week with her. FWIW my son has been calling me and his mother by our first names since he was 2. He refers to us as "my dad/my mom" to other people, but not to us directly.

I hear a lot about how YOU are unhappy with the situation and how much it makes YOU uncomfortable when she does not refer to YOU as "Dad." Again, see advice #1, but it makes me concerned that I do not hear anything about how it makes HER feel when you insist that she call you "Dad." The priority here, I think, is that she should feel comfortable around you and look forward to seeing you & spending time with you, and not focus on which label she uses to describe you/ask for your attention. At this point in my writing, @Celt Z has snuck in a post, and she is giving the same advice I was about to here--support her, allow her to feel comfortable around you, allow her to trust you, and allow her to open up to you, and you will be doing all the things a dad does, title or no title. DO NOT set up a situation where she feels like you and her mother are playing tug-of-war for her affections, for her approval, or whatever. That will just make her feel like she is a sports trophy to be passed back and forth. Do not make her feel like a trophy.

If anything, I'm actually somewhat encouraged that it doesn't sound like she is taking advantage of the situation to milk you for favors and such ("a REAL Dad would buy me a pony!"), which I assume means she has a good head on her shoulders and a great chance to figure out how things stand for herself, later.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

First bit of advice: Remember that no matter what labels you give each other or which are given to you by others, you are still father and daughter and this can never be changed.

Next, in English, "Dad" does not always mean "Father." It is usually a term used to denote the male figure who positively influenced you the most while growing up. If she is calling someone else "Dad," then this may mainly be because you only spend 7hrs/week with her.

I hear a lot about how YOU are unhappy with the situation and how much it makes YOU uncomfortable when she does not refer to YOU as "Dad." Again, see advice #1, but it makes me concerned that I do not hear anything about how it makes HER feel when you insist that she call you "Dad." The priority here, I think, is that she should feel comfortable around you and look forward to seeing you & spending time with you, and not focus on which label she uses to describe you/ask for your attention. At this point in my writing, @Celt Z has snuck in a post, and she is giving the same advice I was about to here--support her, allow her to feel comfortable around you, allow her to trust you, and allow her to open up to you, and you will be doing all the things a dad does, title or no title. DO NOT set up a situation where she feels like you and her mother are playing tug-of-war for her affections, for her approval, or whatever. That will just make her feel like she is a sports trophy to be passed back and forth. Do not make her feel like a trophy.

If anything, I'm actually somewhat encouraged that it doesn't sound like she is taking advantage of the situation to milk you for favors and such ("a REAL Dad would buy me a pony!"), which I assume means she has a good head on her shoulders and a great chance to figure out how things stand for herself, later.

--Patrick

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I'm definitely not insisting that she call me dad. It's just something that she did all the time and that stopped when the new guy came in. I know the manipulations my ex uses. She used them on my step kids when I first became involved with her too. This is just rinse-and-repeat for my ex.
I'm sorry if I didn't give the impression that I care about my daughter's feelings more than my own. I do. And for the reasons you've already mentioned I do not stoop to the tactics of her mother. I have never suggested to my daughter that her mother is purposely keeping us apart as much as possible, nor do I say anything bad about her at all. If anything I'm very supportive of her caring very much about her mother, and even the boyfriend; A while back my daughter once even asked me if it was okay to have two dads. I told her she can love as many people as she wants.
I want to be able to spend a lot more time with my daughter. There will be no additional time until the courts open up again probably. My ex isn't going to give me anything until she's risking being chewed out by a judge. My current amount of time with her is based on a step-program meant to gradually give me more time with my daughter to ensure she doesn't get overwhelmed. The weekend schedule I have with her is currently step 3. We were supposed to discuss step 4, and on, in June and begin implementing step 4 (likely to include overnights) as of July 1st. We could easily decide these things without a lawyer so long as they is written confirmation, but currently my ex won't even allow me a single facetime call with my daughter once a week. Everything I get I'm going to have to fight for, she has made that very clear.

Celt Z said:

I'm so sorry, especially that shitty behavior your ex is exhibiting. That's pretty much rule #1 of how NOT to act when you divorce and share kids. The best I can advise is 1) keep doing what your doing and make as much time with her as possible. As she gets older and more independent, she will be able to parse your dedication and your ex's manipulation. It's frustrating, but you need to play the long game. And 2) ask her about her interests. Let her talk about her favorite shows, activities, toys, books, etc. It will help you plan how to spend your time. I could never give a damn about cars and automotives, but the way it lights up my son, I've made a point to learn and give him as many resources as I can to nuture his interest. If there's anything she's always going to need, it's stability and someone she knows will support her and her interests.

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She expressed an interest in me watching the Twilight movies with her. I've never be interested and never owned the films preceding this conversation.
So I bought the films and we've attempted to sit down to watch the third and fourth films (her favorites). We only stopped because she got bored and wanted to play some Animal Crossing. But yes. I want to encourage her to tell me what she enjoys and I'll find ways to share them with her if she wants me to.

The last few weekends went well. We never did fully get through any of the Twlight movies (I think I've seen about half each of three of the films) but the time has been spent well. A few visits past she's watching this Youtube channel at my place called Cookie Swirl C (some of you parents with younger kids may know of her). It's a show where the youtuber unboxes and plays with various little kid toys (huge market for that kind of stuff on youtube). In one of the episodes she was particularly fascinated with a dispenser toy that drops vending machine capsules filled with doll parts so you can piece together your own creations. I picked up one for her and we had a lot of fun doing that together. There's also been a lot of Minecraft together and Untitled Goose Game. I recently picked up Slime Rancher with my daughter in mind, so maybe she will like that too. I was also pleased that she sat down to watch Spirited Away with me and absolutely loved it. She came back this weekend and wanted to share Kiki's Delivery Service with me because she watched it with her mother recently after her interest in Spirited Away.

Progress wise I feel the connection between us is getting stronger. But I still only see her every other weekend so there's not a lot of time together to cement it I feel. She still, for some reason, withholds saying things like "I love you" to me (even in response when I say it to her). I'm not pushing her to say it or even mentioning it. If she wants to say it she will say it. She still gives me hugs and snuggles up to me during movies, so I believe she does love me. My best guess is she is still confused over everything. But when she does finally say it again I'll probably tear the hell up.

Shawnacy said:

She [...] wanted to share Kiki's Delivery Service with me

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Very encouraging.

Shawnacy said:

I'm not pushing her to say it or even mentioning it. If she wants to say it she will say it.

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This is the right attitude.

--Patrick

Also I might argue that, by wanting to share Kiki's Delivery Service with you, she already did.

--Patrick

Somehow managed to negotiate an overnight with my daughter every other weekend. It's a strong step.

Shawnacy said:

Somehow managed to negotiate an overnight with my daughter every other weekend. It's a strong step.

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That’s fantastic news!!!

Biting my finger nails right now.
Due to the difficult degree of guests at work over the weekends upper management have pretty much nixed my every other Saturday night off. This means I've had to message my ex and ask for a different overnight during the week.
I honestly do not expect my ex to be accommodating.

My overnights will be on hold it looks like. She's going to work with me on some solutions. I probably won't have as much time with her as I did on my overnight, but it's workable.
Still this sucks.

Things have been moving forward. I'm seeing Hailey every Sunday for about 7 hours. Had to give up my overnights for now due to work constraints. But my ex has been surprisingly reasonable with my visit schedule. Even giving me a two-hour dinner with Hailey every other week (my first dinner with her was last Friday). The last two Sundays have been pretty chill, but we did get to go to the LA zoo the first Sunday. The zoo is currently on a phase 1 reopening and so they are only operating at 20% capacity. I'm looking for some other things that we can do on Sundays. I might even see if Sarah will let me have her for a few extra hours with me so we don't have to rush her home.
Divorce may also finally be pushing forward. Heard from my lawyer that Sarah finally has turned in her financial declaration last week, despite it being due last March.

A dinner with Hailey tonight. I asked her if she was excited for an upcoming overnight we have scheduled for when she is on Thanksgiving Break and she said yes. I asked her if she wanted to do two overnights in a row with me and her eyes lit up. Which is frustrating because I earlier asked my ex if it would be possible to do two nights overnight instead of one since it was Hailey's Thanksgiving Break. She told me "Hailey only wants to do one overnight" and left it at that. This is an ongoing problem such as with my request for some vacation time with Hailey: "Hailey has concerns about a week with you that she would like addressed before we agree to anything" she replied.

My ex needs control over my visits. If her need for that control cannot be justified she will guide my daughter's answers to manipulate for that control.

Another excellent day with Hailey. Played (and died a lot) Cuphead together, went for a walk around the neighborhood and watched some DuckTales.

Shawn said:

Another excellent day with Hailey. Played (and died a lot) Cuphead together, went for a walk around the neighborhood and watched some DuckTales.

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Your daughter is adorable.

If your ex got mad about an unlisted youtube video, you might consider blurring her face here.

I removed the picture. Don't want you to get into trouble. The other two don't really show her so it's cool.

Divorce is going to final judgment. Just need her to agree on a few things.

Good luck with that (really).

It's just kind of a fun thing, but my daughter is really into watching theme park ride POVs on Youtube with me. I'm hoping she will enjoy theme park histories and ride mechanics just as I do. Tonight I blew her mind when I told her there was a Frozen ride in Epcot. After watching the POV I mentioned that the ride used to be completely different and called the MAELSTROM, blowing her mind twice over. A little victory but I love it. I'd love to get her to Disneyland soon when it reopens. She hasn't been since she was a little baby so she has no memory of any of it. She's super excited though.

Shawn said:

theme park histories and ride mechanics

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I'll just leave this here.

IMO, they did a half ass job on the Frozen ride. When you compare it to the atmosphere of Haunted Mansion or The Little Mermaid you can see it.

The ride did feel kinda short. I wouldn't say bad, but they really could have expanded into more of the movie. But Li'l Z and I liked it okay (only because we caught it when the line wasn't too long).

But we started watching the Youtube videos of rides from Disney and Universal a few months back, and it really is fun. I was excited someone had recorded Universal's Dueling Dragons, which doesn't exist anymore and was a great coaster. And the Jaws ride, because I never got to go on it!

Celt Z said:

The ride did feel kinda short. I wouldn't say bad, but they really could have expanded into more of the movie. But Li'l Z and I liked it okay (only because we caught it when the line wasn't too long).

But we started watching the Youtube videos of rides from Disney and Universal a few months back, and it really is fun. I was excited someone had recorded Universal's Dueling Dragons, which doesn't exist anymore and was a great coaster. And the Jaws ride, because I never got to go on it!

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I think my biggest issue is that most of it was just people singing while standing in a big blank space and you stare at it. When you go on things like The Little Mermaid, you are in the scene and going through it (Under the Sea), and it has way more immersion and fun. The Frozen ride feels like something that they were just trying to rush out ASAP before the hype died down.

Dei said:

I think my biggest issue is that most of it was just people singing while standing in a big blank space and you stare at it. When you go on things like The Little Mermaid, you are in the scene and going through it (Under the Sea), and it has way more immersion and fun. The Frozen ride feels like something that they were just trying to rush out ASAP before the hype died down.

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I mean when you remodel a ride like they did with Frozen Ever After you have to work with what you got. MAELSTROM was a pretty short ride already.

And the Jaws ride, because I never got to go on it!

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That one was a very impressive ride for it's time.

Shawn said:

I mean when you remodel a ride like they did with Frozen Ever After you have to work with what you got. MAELSTROM was a pretty short ride already.


That one was a very impressive ride for it's time.

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Maelstrom was far more detailed.

Shawn said:

That one was a very impressive ride for it's time.

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I had heard. And I love Jaws. I read the book. I watch the movie every summer. I live near the river the actual event that the book is based on. Heck, I've been to Martha's Vineyard with sharks nearby! So when Mr. Z and I got to go to Universal in 2005 for my first time, I was so upset the ride was closed that day for repairs. It was what I was looking forward to more than anything. And by the time I finally got down there again, they has closed it permanently.
Honestly, looking at the videos online, it looks like it was so fun. Mr. Z told me how it freaked him out when he rode it in '93.

Celt Z said:

I had heard. And I love Jaws. I read the book. I watch the movie every summer. I live near the river the actual event that the book is based on. Heck, I've been to Martha's Vineyard with sharks nearby! So when Mr. Z and I got to go to Universal in 2005 for my first time, I was so upset the ride was closed that day for repairs. It was what I was looking forward to more than anything. And by the time I finally got down there again, they has closed it permanently.
Honestly, looking at the videos online, it looks like it was so fun. Mr. Z told me how it freaked him out when he rode it in '93.

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Rides based on movies have a choice to make when they go into creation. 1) Is it just a ride with no interaction needed from the riders or 2) does it put the riders in as their own characters.
Option 2 can get clever but most of the time you get some weird awkward explanation as to why you're even there (IE: "So thank you for volunteering to becoming minions via our new minion making machine! or "We're letting you completely inexperienced individuals test out our new time machines!").
Jaws had the perfect set up because you are exactly what you are: tourists. Nothing complicated for the story just "we're taking you on a tour of the area where the legendary shark attack took place and will never ever happen again". The other ride that does it just fine at Universal is Jurassic World. Basically the same setup.

Agreed. Li'l Z has never seen Jurassic-anything and he went bananas last year when he tried it. I think it helps that at the heart of the two rides are unchanging truths: sharks and dinosaurs are always awe-inspiring and terrifying. I also think that the new King Kong ride does this well, too.

This is what it looks like talking to my ex via our Talking Parents app. Should I be frustrated with her as much as I am?

-Christmas-
Me: Let's show Hailey we can work together and get her gifts that go with each other. I hear you are getting her an American Girl doll. Is that the case? I can get her some accessories for it.
Her: Get her whatever you want.

-Recent Illness-
Her: Hailey has a fever. I'm getting her tested.
Me: Let's cancel my dinner with her tonight then. Can I talk with her on the phone for a few minutes today? Let me know when you get the results of the test.
Her: (responding 8 hours later). Covid Negative Flu Positive. She's asleep.

-Upcoming Sunday overnight. But still dealing with illness-
Me: How is Hailey feeling? Are we still okay with the overnight tomorrow? I have children's tylenol on hand if she's still feeling a little under the weather. But if you want to give her another day recovery at home we could do Monday overnight instead.
Her: Can't do Monday. We have plans for Tuesday.

Honestly at this point I have no idea if I'm seeing Hailey today. I guess I'll just show up for the drop off and find out.

The positive upside of the hotel closing for six weeks is that my weekends are available to me again. I'll only be seeing Hailey once every other weekend with the schedule, but at least it will be an overnight.

Still my thoughts are a little depressing lately.
I hate not being able to trust someone with such an impact on my life such as Sarah, after years of being manipulated and gaslighted by my her. The last half of the year has had its moments of frustrations with her but for the most part she seems willing to work with me. It is, however, no where near perfect, as she continues to undermine me, make me feel like I'm borrowing Hailey rather than co-parenting, and absolutely making it harder to see Hailey than it ever has to be. For some reason she has been delaying our divorce final judgment as well. We've been at this for two years now and she takes each step at a snail's pace.
She still scares me. Despite her nice and friendly mannerisms at times during drop-offs/pick-ups I am still incredibly paranoid of her true intentions.
If I did not have a good lawyer protecting my interests right now I have no doubt in my mind that Sarah would still have me seeing Hailey no more than 2 hours a month as she did our first year separated.

Shawn said:

For some reason she has been delaying our divorce final judgment as well.

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It's for control. Everything she does is for control.

Several areas of the city received an emergency alert regarding stay-at-home orders. My ex wants to use that as a reason to postpone visits until further notice. While there isn't anything posted regarding this most recent order the city's stance on visitation is that the stay-at-home orders do not supersede the visitation orders, but the health of the child and family should be factored in so it's kind of a case-by-case scenario that the parents should decide amongst themselves.
My current situation is that the hotel is closed and I work by myself in a locked up office with no close contact with anyone. I isolate at home the rest of the time and only venture out for groceries. My roommates work in TV/Movies where they are usually either working from home or on set where they wear masks, isolate, and get tested 3 times a week with results in less than a day. The rest of the time they isolate from home.
What's also bad timing is that my first full week with Hailey is coming up at the end of the month. I've already taken the time off of work for it.

I do not doubt for one second that Sarah is jumping on this as another excuse to keep me from seeing Hailey. However that doesn't mean it's not a valid excuse.
What does everyone suggest?

Go back in time, get a better ex-wife.

Joking aside, there's very little you can do that you haven't done already. You're taking all the precautions you can without giving up your job or being homeless. The only thing, and this is marginal, is that you can't 100% vouch for your roommates, as they are grow adults with lives outside of the home as well. That being said, and given her history, you know your ex will do anything and everything she still can to twist the knife because you got free from her manipulative marriage. I would say, stay on top of your Covid testing, and maybe consult your lawyer to enforce your shared custody. It's hard given the situation with the pandemic. We've been extremely careful with Li'l Z this entire time, and even I would pause a little if I were in your living situation. It's not that you or your roommates are playing fast and loose with the restrictions, it just ups the possibility of something happening that's out of anyone's control.

Ugh. Now she's saying she wants Hailey to wear a mask whenever she's in my home.

Shawn said:

Ugh. Now she's saying she wants Hailey to wear a mask whenever she's in my home.

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Does she understand that means she thinks Hailey is the one who is infected?

--Patrick

Probably not. But arguing the fact with her doesn’t seem like a solid tactic right now. If anything she will just insist that I be the one to wear the mask during the 32 hours she’s with me.

Shawn said:

she will just insist that I be the one to wear the mask during the 32 hours she’s with me.

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I mean, doing that would definitely demonstrate your commitment to her safety, sooo...

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

I mean, doing that would definitely demonstrate your commitment to her safety, sooo...

--Patrick

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A commitment but to what end? The effectiveness of my mask would fade the longer I am in close contact with her anyway. Plus it seems like it would be just giving in to my ex’s need for control.

Things have not progressed well. Currently my ex is refusing to allow the week vacation I had planned with Hailey on the grounds that we never made a formal agreement to it.
I have been asking for this vacation for quite some time. During COVID it would be completely just for the time with Hailey as we will not be going anywhere or seeing anyone, but a week with Hailey under any circumstances is exactly what we need. I have been asking Sarah about it for quite some time now who has basically told me it is a possibility. In late October we finally received Sarah's proposal for the divorce judgment (which took her 7 months to do), which did include the week vacations during Hailey's winter and summer breaks as I have requested. After meeting with me my lawyer sent our proposed changes to the order on November 5th. It has been over a month later and Sarah has yet to provide any response to those changes. She is now claiming that because there has not been a formal agreement to the winter break vacation that it doesn't have to occur. As "correct" as she is, it still is heartbreaking that she is procrastinating past the deadline to basically ensure I do not get my vacation week with Hailey this year.

The Drama Train has pulled up to the station.

Sarah just informed me that Hailey has another fever this morning. I last saw Hailey on Sunday, but Sarah made it very clear in her message today that Hailey also coincidently complained of a headache on Tuesday night.
Myself and my roommates are completely fine.

Have you suggested to Sarah that she (Sarah) get tested?

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Have you suggested to Sarah that she (Sarah) get tested?

--Patrick

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No but its a good idea.

Hailey's test supposedly came back negative. I say "supposedly" because I asked my ex for a copy of the test results. She sent me the results from last month's scare instead. I've informed her of the "error" and asked her to send the new one, but she has yet to reply. I have confirmation that she read the email however. Not sure what to think here, but I would not put it past her to fake a covid scare with Hailey to try and get her point across about postponing visits.

Hailey will be over for a week starting Sunday. We're going to learn some recipes together, making gingerbread cookies, and basically having a second Christmas.

Meanwhile my ex and my divorce negotiations have hit a snag. She is disputing on some terms of hers that I agreed to. Basically my lawyer made it clear that we are not happy with the terms, but we are agreeing with them for the sake of cooperation and keeping things moving. Despite those words not being something that would ever go in the final judgement she is going to fight them being said at all. Honestly I don't get it.

Hailey and I had a good week. Didn't venture out much due to Covid but we made the most of being stuck at home. We baked Gingerbread cookies together, prepared meals, binged Gravity Falls, and watched a few films. On the last night with me we drove up to Six Flags where they had a drive-thru light show.

Her mother, of course, emailed me after her drop off with a few "concerns". At least this time they were politely worded (last time she openly accused me of taking credit for gifts that Hailey had received from her for Christmas). One of which was that I did not allow Hailey to call her when she asked. I'm not like Sarah in this regard. I don't let my resentments of Sarah affect Hailey in any way. If Hailey wanted to call her mother I would absolutely allow it. The problem was that Hailey never asked. So now it's either Hailey is telling both her mother and I different things (possibly to make sure neither of us feel bad), or Sarah is either mishearing/exaggerating things that Hailey is saying. Both are very possible. During my marriage Sarah was a master of "mishearing" people. I can remember plenty of instances where I was told of some terrible thing that some person we knew had said about her or about me, but I was forbidden from following up on it. Especially in situations where following up was necessary (such as when she claimed my decade-long friend had touched her inappropriately).

I'll gently ask Hailey about the comments when I see her again. I'll just ask if she did indeed ask me about calling her mother and somehow I missed or misunderstood it. Regardless of her answer I'll remind her that she can always ask me in the future and I'll always say yes.

I hate that I'm the only one of us that wants Hailey to have a good relationship with both parents. It feels like a lost cause walking the high ground sometimes.

Today I received a message from Sarah regarding our daughter. She tells me she is "concerned with the amount of TV and games I allow Hailey to watch/play when over at my place every other weekend. She has implied that my "lax" rules have made our daughter difficult to deal with when she is home with her, including walking away from her online learning to play outside or on other sites. She has apparently been enforcing 30 minute max electronics time on weekdays and 1 hour max on weekends that Hailey can earn by doing schoolwork and chores. But, in a quote to me, she said Hailey said the following " She also said that she does not care about earning TV back because she will just go to your house and watch TV, play video games, and sit on Youtube the whole time." My ex tends to overexaggerate situations so I can never tell when a situation she has described as accurate. I've reached out to Hailey's teacher regarding the claim that Hailey isn't paying attention during online classes but I haven't heard back from him yet.
When Hailey is at my place she is very well behaved, listens, and has never once argued with me or had a temper tantrum of any kind. Of course my situation here is a bit different. At home with her mother she also lives with her step-dad, step-uncle, and 4 siblings of ages 11 and younger. When she is here I spend the majority of the time with her (since her time with me is so limited). We watch her favorite shows together, we play her favorite games together. But we also have dedicated "screen free" times where we go on walks, play board games, do crafts, and read.
I've attempted to work with my ex by offering to include some additional "screen free" time and come up with some little chores that our daughter can do while she's here with me.
If my ex were anyone else I'd probably be more concerned about Hailey's behavior, but knowing my ex as well as I do I can't help but feel like the situation has been exaggerated to twist blame in my direction for our 8 year-old acting like an 8 year-old.

Just saying this as an outside observer - it sounds like she's acting like an 8 year old that has probably less time with her mom with that many people in the household vs the time she gets to spend with you doing stuff in your much limited time together. If your ex is complaining about a "rebellious attitude" at 8, whatever is she going to do when your daughter becomes an actual teenager? (for some context of this post, my wife and I are still together, but our son is going to be 13 this year and is generally starting to be a teen in that type of attitude for a large portion of time)

I think it's good you reached out to her teacher. They can give you a far more accurate idea of how Hailey is handling her online learning and where she might need extra help or boundries. Otherwise, it does sound like an 8-year-old being 8, and lost in the shuffle of a busy household.

ncts_dodge_man said:

Just saying this as an outside observer - it sounds like she's acting like an 8 year old that has probably less time with her mom with that many people in the household vs the time she gets to spend with you doing stuff in your much limited time together. If your ex is complaining about a "rebellious attitude" at 8, whatever is she going to do when your daughter becomes an actual teenager? (for some context of this post, my wife and I are still together, but our son is going to be 13 this year and is generally starting to be a teen in that type of attitude for a large portion of time)

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I absolutely see it. In fact I saw it when Sarah and I were still together. We had issues with the kids. Sarah seemed to think the issues were worse than I thought they were. But yes, any issues we had seemed very clearly based (at least partially) on the fact that it was she and I taking care of 4 young kiddos and overextending ourselves. When we separated my ex immediately brought in the new boyfriend and within a few months had In Vitro Fertilization to get pregnant with her 5th child. So not only did the problems likely persist but they likely have gotten worse.
When Hailey is over I can give her that attention, because now she's the only kid in my life.
My ex seems to think that means there are "no rules" at my home. Which isn't the case. Just right now Hailey doesn't have a lot of chores or responsibilities at my place. She cleans up after herself, helps me with dinner when able, and is polite and behaves wonderfully.
But I do not in any way want Hailey to feel that one home is better than the other. I know Sarah loves her, but yeah its probably not always obvious to an 8 year old.

If one house is "the place where I get attention from dad and I get to pick the games/movies/series we play/watch, and I can be at ease" and the other place is "where I'm forced to do chores the whole time for a bunch of kids I don't care about, and nobody listens to me and I just have to keep my head down", of course she's going to feel one's better than the other.
Mind you, that might as well be one house "the place where i'm stuck all alone with my dad and there's nothing interesting to do and he's always busy and I just wait around" vs "the place that's always full of life with a bunch of kids to play with, lots of interactions, always stuff going on and new things to do". It's not necessarily "being a single child" that is more or less fun than "being in a group" (I never got the impression any of @strawman's kids didn't feel loved and at home - whhile my niece, who's an only child, is pretty vocal in how she doesn't fel appreciated because neither of her parents actually spends time with her) . It's also partially down to personality, and how authority and tasks and time management are handled on both locations.

Parenting, especially co-parenting, isn't a competition, or at least it shouldn't be. In the best of cases - which yours is not :-P - it can be a cooperation and everybody can help develop talents and give the kids homes they enjoy. In the worst case, it's a constant competition for being the "best" parent and the "good guy" (/woman). She clearly needs it to be the second - and doesn't like to lose. Tough on her.

Obviously, you should take care that it doesn't just become "when I'm over at dad's place, I can do whatever I want, it's happy fun time, no rules! Whoo!". When my nephews or nieces stay over here, it's easy for us to allow them more freedom etc than they have at home - they're only here for one or two weekends a year, it's a treat, we're going to the zoo and museums and whatever. As a co-parent, that's a trap to avoid...But from what I've read and heard so far, I think you're doing a pretty good job of avoiding it.

Shawn said:

When we separated my ex immediately brought in the new boyfriend and within a few months had In Vitro Fertilization to get pregnant with her 5th child

Click to expand...

Your ex uses children to control people

I think my ex is absolutely confusing "no rules" with "fewer responsibilities". When Hailey is over she doesn't have homework with her. She's not attending class. She doesn't have a room to clean up. And honestly I think it would be unreasonable to ask her to vacuum or clean a room in the house if she doesn't live here more than every other weekend. Currently I only ask of her to clean up after herself and help me with cooking and dishes whenever possible. All of those things she does with no issue.
If I take anything from this its that I absolutely do not want Hailey to disrespect her mother or lax on her responsibilities at home. First I have to ask Hailey for her perspective on things (because its hard to tell what Sarah is just exaggerating) but from there I can hopefully have a good discussion with Hailey. If Hailey is to continue having fewer responsibilities at my place than at her own home (for the reasons I gave) then I think its fair she understands she can't use that to push back at her mother.

Spring break is coming up. I thought maybe I could ask for a second overnight (Sunday) this coming weekend, so asked a week in advance. Sarah replied and said she had plans Monday and Tuesday. I asked if it would be possible to drop Hailey off Monday morning in time for those plans. Was told she wants to leave early (7:30am) and didn't want to rush Hailey out the door. I asked if maybe, due to the special occasion of Spring Break, that I pick her up Friday after school. No reply until a few days later.

"You can take her on Monday. I just canceled my plans. I will tell you that this is very frustrating for me that you request short notice changes and then are basically requiring that I cancel plans that I made months ago to accommodate your wants. You were aware of this schedule and if this was something you were interested in you should have mentioned it in a timely manner. I am upset by this. Additionally I am requesting that Hailey not have any electronics time at your home this weekend. She is grounded from electronics as she went off and played during school. Since you are taking her this is now a request that you must follow up on. No electronics this Spring Break which includes your home."

I never asked her to cancel anything. I was hoping for some extra time as a curtesy and nothing more than that. I don't know if the two alternate options I asked were too much, but when she shot them down I never argued it.
When I referred to the "grounding" in a reply back she corrected me and said it was a "loss of privileges" and never a "grounding". Called the electronics free weekend a request but made it a demand in a single sentence "Since you are taking her this is now a request that you must follow up on". No say in it. Just what she says goes.

I mean two days without electronics isn't a big deal or anything. I don't have as much to do at my place but we'd manage for two days. I initially told Sarah we could make it happen. But then I started asking questions about why Hailey was losing privileges for an entire week when, personally, I think a week is a pretty long time for an 8 year old.

Sarah answered a few questions for me. She told me that Hailey wasn't physically leaving the computer but was switching to a browser to play games. When I asked if we had her on parent controls Sarah specified that the games were the educational games on the school site she uses for her classes. So I guess she could get bored and start playing one of the games, like a kid doodling in class or daydreaming. After those few questions Sarah shut me down and told me

" I have answered all required questions and what you do in your house is up to you. I requested that she be restricted in your home as you have her this weekend for extended time as this was requested last min and was my time and thus has impacted my family and my agreement already in place with Hailey. Now that is the only reason I requested this of you. No further communication is required on this topic as it was already resolved"

After speaking with Hailey's teacher today I got the impression that Hailey does well, has an infectious enthusiasm, loves to read and participate, and yeah can be found being distracted at times. He also mentioned that he felt one of the issues was that its such a busy house over there (3 adults, 4 kids, and a baby) that Hailey doesn't have privacy that provides the best suitable working environment. But, with a nice set of headphones that the school is about to donate to her, hopefully it makes a difference. Her teacher was also going to reach out to Sarah to make some recommendations.

So after this I thought about it, and I wrote the following back.
" Since we are in agreement that it is my home and my rules I will let you know that I have decided on allowing Hailey some electronics time within reason during her normal visiting time with me. I have spoken with Hailey's teacher and received some good information including links for Hailey's independent learning work. Per his recommendation we're going to spend 15 minutes or so on that per day. There will also be the reading time and extended screen free times that I initiated during her last visit. You had intended for Hailey to be electronic free upon returning home from my place originally so, if you still allow Hailey to stay until 10am on Monday, there will be no electronics for her beginning 6pm on Sunday evening to begin her electronic free week as you intended. "

Sarah is going to flip for sure. Probably accuse me of not co-parenting with her. Accuse me of undermining her authority in this situation.

Originally I was going to go along with the electronic free days but then I started worrying about a few things. Sarah didn't demand that I take away electronics until she begrudgingly gave me more time. She was clearly frustrated in her tone in that email. I started to wonder 1) would she had said anything about the "loss of privileges" if I didn't ask for anything? and 2) is it possible this punishment was more fueled by Sarah's hatred of me than off of anything that Hailey ever did?
It also doesn't help that this is yet another matter that Sarah has decided she is the "rule maker" and I am the "rule follower". She complains I don't co-parent but I barely get a say in anything that goes on with Hailey's life unless I really pester the hell out of her about it.

I think I could have worded my email a bit better but, with all of these worries about what this is really about I can't bring myself to punish Hailey with it.

It's been well-documented that your ex needs control over everyone and everything at all times, so it wouldn't surprise me if she didn't have plans in the first place. Most likely someone in the household pointed out that letting Hailey spend time with you would mean one less kid they need to watch/entertain for a few days, and she had to find a way to not let it seem like you were "getting your way" without some "suffering" on her part. Just a guess, here.

So, since your ex has proven not to be the most reliable narrator, I think you reaching out to Hailey's teachers, and making sure you are on any mailings, is something you're going to have to do from now on. I've noticed in a lot of cases of divorce, it's assumed that the father will be taking less of a role in the child's life (which is a whole other issue, but I digress) and everything falls to "Mom". You don't have to fill the teachers in on all the drama of your ex, but just reach out to them and say since you are co-parenting, please copy you on class notifications or any emails concerning Hailey. You want to stay up-to-date on her schooling even if you don't have her every day. It will benefit everyone in the long run, except maybe your ex, who likes to create her own version of things.

She told me that Hailey wasn't physically leaving the computer but was switching to a browser to play games. When I asked if we had her on parent controls Sarah specified that the games were the educational games on the school site she uses for her classes. So I guess she could get bored and start playing one of the games, like a kid doodling in class or daydreaming.

Click to expand...

I have yet to hear of the child of Hailey and Li'l Z's age group that DIDN'T do this at some point. As diligent and responsible as he has been about online learning, there were a couple of times I caught Li'l Z switching over to the school-supplied math games or the virtual library when things got a little boring. The result was he lost tv in the afternoon on those days. There was one time he lost his weekend nightime Switch privileges because I caught him playing math games and doing the bare minimum on his creative writing. But he also doesn't have a full household, so I can see that how that can contribute to Hailey losing focus.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure 95% of all adults on telework/remote work/home working have at some point read an article, played a game, checked Facebook ,or whatever during a meeting or a boring call. I know I most definitely do.
I mean, it's not behavior to be encouraged, I get that, but it's not like playing a school-supplied math game is terrible. During some of the quieter moments at my work I was playing Diablo III on my PC just keeping an eye on my work computer so it didn't go into idle mode

Bubble181 said:

Honestly, I'm pretty sure 95% of all adults on telework/remote work/home working have at some point read an article, played a game, checked Facebook ,or whatever during a meeting or a boring call. I know I most definitely do.
I mean, it's not behavior to be encouraged, I get that, but it's not like playing a school-supplied math game is terrible. During some of the quieter moments at my work I was playing Diablo III on my PC just keeping an eye on my work computer so it didn't go into idle mode

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Hell, 90% of my time spent in meetings is this. I have spent so much meeting time in Freecell or Hearts it's sad.

Shawn said:

Spring break is coming up. I thought maybe I could ask for a second overnight (Sunday) this coming weekend, so asked a week in advance. Sarah replied and said she had plans Monday and Tuesday. I asked if it would be possible to drop Hailey off Monday morning in time for those plans. Was told she wants to leave early (7:30am) and didn't want to rush Hailey out the door. I asked if maybe, due to the special occasion of Spring Break, that I pick her up Friday after school. No reply until a few days later.

"You can take her on Monday. I just canceled my plans. I will tell you that this is very frustrating for me that you request short notice changes and then are basically requiring that I cancel plans that I made months ago to accommodate your wants. You were aware of this schedule and if this was something you were interested in you should have mentioned it in a timely manner. I am upset by this. Additionally I am requesting that Hailey not have any electronics time at your home this weekend. She is grounded from electronics as she went off and played during school. Since you are taking her this is now a request that you must follow up on. No electronics this Spring Break which includes your home."

I never asked her to cancel anything. I was hoping for some extra time as a curtesy and nothing more than that. I don't know if the two alternate options I asked were too much, but when she shot them down I never argued it.
When I referred to the "grounding" in a reply back she corrected me and said it was a "loss of privileges" and never a "grounding". Called the electronics free weekend a request but made it a demand in a single sentence "Since you are taking her this is now a request that you must follow up on". No say in it. Just what she says goes.

I mean two days without electronics isn't a big deal or anything. I don't have as much to do at my place but we'd manage for two days. I initially told Sarah we could make it happen. But then I started asking questions about why Hailey was losing privileges for an entire week when, personally, I think a week is a pretty long time for an 8 year old.

Sarah answered a few questions for me. She told me that Hailey wasn't physically leaving the computer but was switching to a browser to play games. When I asked if we had her on parent controls Sarah specified that the games were the educational games on the school site she uses for her classes. So I guess she could get bored and start playing one of the games, like a kid doodling in class or daydreaming. After those few questions Sarah shut me down and told me

" I have answered all required questions and what you do in your house is up to you. I requested that she be restricted in your home as you have her this weekend for extended time as this was requested last min and was my time and thus has impacted my family and my agreement already in place with Hailey. Now that is the only reason I requested this of you. No further communication is required on this topic as it was already resolved"

After speaking with Hailey's teacher today I got the impression that Hailey does well, has an infectious enthusiasm, loves to read and participate, and yeah can be found being distracted at times. He also mentioned that he felt one of the issues was that its such a busy house over there (3 adults, 4 kids, and a baby) that Hailey doesn't have privacy that provides the best suitable working environment. But, with a nice set of headphones that the school is about to donate to her, hopefully it makes a difference. Her teacher was also going to reach out to Sarah to make some recommendations.

So after this I thought about it, and I wrote the following back.
" Since we are in agreement that it is my home and my rules I will let you know that I have decided on allowing Hailey some electronics time within reason during her normal visiting time with me. I have spoken with Hailey's teacher and received some good information including links for Hailey's independent learning work. Per his recommendation we're going to spend 15 minutes or so on that per day. There will also be the reading time and extended screen free times that I initiated during her last visit. You had intended for Hailey to be electronic free upon returning home from my place originally so, if you still allow Hailey to stay until 10am on Monday, there will be no electronics for her beginning 6pm on Sunday evening to begin her electronic free week as you intended. "

Sarah is going to flip for sure. Probably accuse me of not co-parenting with her. Accuse me of undermining her authority in this situation.

Originally I was going to go along with the electronic free days but then I started worrying about a few things. Sarah didn't demand that I take away electronics until she begrudgingly gave me more time. She was clearly frustrated in her tone in that email. I started to wonder 1) would she had said anything about the "loss of privileges" if I didn't ask for anything? and 2) is it possible this punishment was more fueled by Sarah's hatred of me than off of anything that Hailey ever did?
It also doesn't help that this is yet another matter that Sarah has decided she is the "rule maker" and I am the "rule follower". She complains I don't co-parent but I barely get a say in anything that goes on with Hailey's life unless I really pester the hell out of her about it.

I think I could have worded my email a bit better but, with all of these worries about what this is really about I can't bring myself to punish Hailey with it.

Click to expand...

When she tells you fine, you can take her because I cancelled my plans, your reply should only be "Great, thanks."

Signed the divorce papers today. It's official.

In May a coworker has made important plans on what is my usual day of the week with Hailey. To cover for him they need me to come in several hours early.
I asked Sarah if it would be alright if I dropped Hailey off an hour and thirty minutes early that day so I could get to my shift on time.
She completely surprised me by asking if I wanted to pick her up earlier that morning so I still have the same amount of time with her.

Whenever she's nice like that I always wonder what the catch is.

I sent the boys some birthday cards last week. I wouldn't know if they reached them without asking. I didn't want to ask Sarah so I stupidly texted the boyfriend/basically husband.
He responded to my one sentence question with a long text calling me abusive to Sarah and the kids, telling me I belong in jail, and a long list of exaggerations and complete fabrications that I can only imagine Sarah has filled his mind with for the last two years. He demanded I do not text him directly again unless it's regarding Hailey.
I don't hate this guy. If anything he's just the next victim and I feel for him.
But it took all my willpower tonight to not text him back reminding him that he's the one choosing to be blissfully unaware of my side of things. I even wanted to text him back a nude that Sarah sent me a few months after our separation (just after the boyfriend had moved in), just as a reminder to him that Sarah is never going to be completely honest with him about everything.
I don't see such a response going well though. It will just cause more issues. I'll just send the kids' birthday and Christmas cards to their grandparents so I know they will reach them.
Just bothers me that I let someone have such a misguided opinion of me just for the sake of keeping the peace.

Shawn said:

I sent the boys some birthday cards last week. I wouldn't know if they reached them without asking. I didn't want to ask Sarah so I stupidly texted the boyfriend/basically husband.
He responded to my one sentence question with a long text calling me abusive to Sarah and the kids, telling me I belong in jail, and a long list of exaggerations and complete fabrications that I can only imagine Sarah has filled his mind with for the last two years. He demanded I do not text him directly again unless it's regarding Hailey.
I don't hate this guy. If anything he's just the next victim and I feel for him.
But it took all my willpower tonight to not text him back reminding him that he's the one choosing to be blissfully unaware of my side of things. I even wanted to text him back a nude that Sarah sent me a few months after our separation (just after the boyfriend had moved in), just as a reminder to him that Sarah is never going to be completely honest with him about everything.
I don't see such a response going well though. It will just cause more issues. I'll just send the kids' birthday and Christmas cards to their grandparents so I know they will reach them.
Just bothers me that I let someone have such a misguided opinion of me just for the sake of keeping the peace.

Click to expand...

She wants you two fighting. It gives her power. Your response should be not to care, because outside of what you have to deal with for your daughter you are free from that manipulator.

You should also probably delete those nudes, it's about control scheme.

You should probably document that she's telling him blatantly untrue stuff about you. Not necessarily for right now, but you never know when a paper trail could come in handy.

Me: "Hi Sarah. We're a little less than a month away from Hailey's summer schedule. I wanted to check with you again regarding possibly getting a temporary overnight schedule with her every other week during it. It doesn't have to be Sunday and Monday but those days work well for me. Just so long as its not Friday and Saturdays essentially. I was looking at and I noticed that if we started an overnight schedule on the 30th than my vacation week with Hailey would fall into the every other week schedule perfectly. Let me know."

Her: " I really don't like the inconsistency and adjustment of schedules every couple of months. It is taxing on my schedule (kids schedule) and disrupts my family. I am going to have to think about this a bit more because my schedule does not just involve her and the kids have mid week activities and there is not a good day where this wont impact the rest of the kids. This also will prevent me from including her in summer activities that she has requested and I am looking into. "

Me: " the point is to allow Hailey to have more time with me. That is also something you should be accommodating for too. We all have schedules and they all need to be considered. Hailey has said she is looking forward to overnights again. I'm willing to work with you but I'd like to know you are working with me too. "

Her: " Well considering that you are not hearing my concerns and are only looking at this through one side I will say that Sunday and Monday are my worst days. The only possibility that I have are Thursday pick up at 6am and return Friday at 4pm or Thursday at 5:30 PM to Friday at 7PM."

Me: " Asking for a compromise is not the same as not hearing you. We can look into the possibility of Thursday at 6am to Friday at 4pm. It will require me to get Wednesdays/Thursdays off but it is probably the best option. I will have this discussion with Daniel and get back to you shortly. Can you also please provide me with a list of Hailey's activities and schedule for this Summer. "

Her: " 1) The definition of compromise is as follows: "an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions." The conversation has been what you want on your schedule and if any concerns are expressed by me then I am met with defensiveness, threats, deflections, and poor communication. This is not compromise. 2) As of right now she has none. I have canceled those for the week that you are taking her and she will not be able to attend the others if she is taken mid week every other week. It would cause an issue as the other children will be in the same location. I will continue looking into options that may suit this back and forth schedule.


When Sarah does stuff like this to me I often question if I'm part of the problem. In her last message in this thread she tells me I'm defensive, I deflect, and I poorly communicated. She also mentions threats, which I know I didn't do that. But everything else I am not a expert on arguments to know if I did those things or not. Can anyone give me your opinion on where this argument went wrong?
Also: "You are not hearing me" is a phrase she uses that triggers a lot of my anxiety. I heard it a lot during our marriage during her one sided arguments.

Shawn said:

Me: "Hi Sarah. We're a little less than a month away from Hailey's summer schedule. I wanted to check with you again regarding possibly getting a temporary overnight schedule with her every other week during it. It doesn't have to be Sunday and Monday but those days work well for me. Just so long as its not Friday and Saturdays essentially. I was looking at and I noticed that if we started an overnight schedule on the 30th than my vacation week with Hailey would fall into the every other week schedule perfectly. Let me know."

Her: " I really don't like the inconsistency and adjustment of schedules every couple of months. It is taxing on my schedule (kids schedule) and disrupts my family. I am going to have to think about this a bit more because my schedule does not just involve her and the kids have mid week activities and there is not a good day where this wont impact the rest of the kids. This also will prevent me from including her in summer activities that she has requested and I am looking into. "

Me: " the point is to allow Hailey to have more time with me. That is also something you should be accommodating for too. We all have schedules and they all need to be considered. Hailey has said she is looking forward to overnights again. I'm willing to work with you but I'd like to know you are working with me too. "

Her: " Well considering that you are not hearing my concerns and are only looking at this through one side I will say that Sunday and Monday are my worst days. The only possibility that I have are Thursday pick up at 6am and return Friday at 4pm or Thursday at 5:30 PM to Friday at 7PM."

Me: " Asking for a compromise is not the same as not hearing you. We can look into the possibility of Thursday at 6am to Friday at 4pm. It will require me to get Wednesdays/Thursdays off but it is probably the best option. I will have this discussion with Daniel and get back to you shortly. Can you also please provide me with a list of Hailey's activities and schedule for this Summer. "

Her: " 1) The definition of compromise is as follows: "an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions." The conversation has been what you want on your schedule and if any concerns are expressed by me then I am met with defensiveness, threats, deflections, and poor communication. This is not compromise. 2) As of right now she has none. I have canceled those for the week that you are taking her and she will not be able to attend the others if she is taken mid week every other week. It would cause an issue as the other children will be in the same location. I will continue looking into options that may suit this back and forth schedule.


When Sarah does stuff like this to me I often question if I'm part of the problem. In her last message in this thread she tells me I'm defensive, I deflect, and I poorly communicated. She also mentions threats, which I know I didn't there. But everything else I am not a expert on arguments to know if I did those things or not. Can anyone give me your opinion on where this argument went wrong?
Also: "You are not hearing me" is a phrase she uses that triggers a lot of my anxiety. I heard it a lot during our marriage during her one sided arguments.

Click to expand...

This is through the app that is also monitored right? I think you are building a pretty good case for renegotiating your custody arrangements through the court system if so.

Dei said:

This is through the app that is also monitored right? I think you are building a pretty good case for renegotiating your custody arrangements through the court system if so.

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Yes. This is through the app.

I'm pretty sure "You are not hearing me"
is actually "You are not doing what I want".

Celt Z said:

I'm pretty sure "You are not hearing me"
is actually "You are not doing what I want".

Click to expand...

When we were married she had a lot of issues with me that she brought up frequently. A lot of them were over things I didn't even have control over or where I didn't even do the thing she was accusing me of.
When our conversations became circles she started demanding that we "listen and respond". So we'd hear each other out and then we'd reply by summarizing all concerns before discussing further.
When it was her turn she'd go on for at least an hour or more, usually in a condescending and often angry tone, before I'd get a chance to respond. By then there were so many points to summarize that I'd get overwhelmed and begin to panic, often forgetting things that she would have to bring up again with more frustration. When it was my turn she wouldn't summarize. Just tell me I'm wrong, often imply that I'm just an idiot, and walk away or begin another discussion on my issues without my concerns being really addressed.

I dunno how much you're paraphrasing but this reasonable question trying to plan in advance:

Me: "Hi Sarah. We're a little less than a month away from Hailey's summer schedule. I wanted to check with you again regarding possibly getting a temporary overnight schedule with her every other week during it. It doesn't have to be Sunday and Monday but those days work well for me. Just so long as its not Friday and Saturdays essentially. I was looking at and I noticed that if we started an overnight schedule on the 30th than my vacation week with Hailey would fall into the every other week schedule perfectly. Let me know."

Her: " I really don't like the inconsistency and adjustment of schedules every couple of months. It is taxing on my schedule (kids schedule) and disrupts my family. I am going to have to think about this a bit more because my schedule does not just involve her and the kids have mid week activities and there is not a good day where this wont impact the rest of the kids. This also will prevent me from including her in summer activities that she has requested and I am looking into. "

Me: " the point is to allow Hailey to have more time with me. That is also something you should be accommodating for too. We all have schedules and they all need to be considered. Hailey has said she is looking forward to overnights again. I'm willing to work with you but I'd like to know you are working with me too. "

Her: " Well considering that you are not hearing my concerns and are only looking at this through one side I will say that Sunday and Monday are my worst days. The only possibility that I have are Thursday pick up at 6am and return Friday at 4pm or Thursday at 5:30 PM to Friday at 7PM."

Click to expand...

To then being met with this response, immediately:

Her: " 1) The definition of compromise is as follows: "an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions." The conversation has been what you want on your schedule and if any concerns are expressed by me then I am met with defensiveness, threats, deflections, and poor communication. This is not compromise.

Click to expand...

After you literally compromised the times that would work for you barring that you'd be able to switch days at work, something out of your control, following being immediately shot down with 0 other options given other than what will work for her:

Me: " Asking for a compromise is not the same as not hearing you. We can look into the possibility of Thursday at 6am to Friday at 4pm. It will require me to get Wednesdays/Thursdays off but it is probably the best option. I will have this discussion with Daniel and get back to you shortly. Can you also please provide me with a list of Hailey's activities and schedule for this Summer. "

Click to expand...

is giving me fucking whiplash.

This feels like she cancelled your daughter's summer activities purposefully to blame it on you, and that's really obvious from the text.

Far said:

I dunno how much you're paraphrasing but this reasonable question trying to plan in advance:



To then being met with this response, immediately::


After you literally compromised the times that would work for you barring that you'd be able to switch days at work, something out of your control, following being immediately shot down with 0 other options given other than what will work for her:


is giving me fucking whiplash.

Click to expand...

No paraphrasing. All copy/paste.

Dei said:

This feels like she cancelled your daughter's summer activities purposefully to blame it on you, and that's really obvious from the text.

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Yeah. She got passive aggressive about that a couple of times on other conversations.

Shawn said:

No paraphrasing. All copy/paste.

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I assumed based on your previous response but didn't want to just go off without the caveat that I'm aware we're only hearing one side of this in case that wasn't the case.

Celt Z said:

I'm pretty sure "You are not hearing me"
is actually "You are not doing what I want".

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I feel like I’ve heard this kind of lament somewhere before.

—Patrick

The conversation continued...

Me: "Please point out the areas in this message where I replied with defensiveness, threats, deflections or poor communication."
- Insert-

Shawn said:

Her: "I really don't like the inconsistency and adjustment of schedules every couple of months. It is taxing on my schedule (kids schedule) and disrupts my family. I am going to have to think about this a bit more because my schedule does not just involve her and the kids have mid week activities and there is not a good day where this wont impact the rest of the kids. This also will prevent me from including her in summer activities that she has requested and I am looking into. "

Me: " the point is to allow Hailey to have more time with me. That is also something you should be accommodating for too. We all have schedules and they all need to be considered. Hailey has said she is looking forward to overnights again. I'm willing to work with you but I'd like to know you are working with me too. "

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Me: "This appears to be me asking for a compromise when you have already settled on not allowing for one. I also do not appreciate these passive aggressive statements you are making suggesting that Hailey is missing out on fun because she is spending time with me."

Her: " There is no passive aggressiveness I am stating fact. I had to cancel plans that I had for Hailey as I had made vacation plans for the same week. You did not confer with me and made plans with your parents and work prior to talking to me so she was removed from those plans. As for the mid week visitations she can not do week long activities as she will now be with you every other week. Those are fact. You can not twist that into a false reality. I have stated that I will look for some other activities that may fit with her going back and forth. As for breaking out all the statements recently that are defensive, threats, deflections, and poor communication I believe that this would prove worthless as this is something that is not acknowledged or something that will never change. Thus it is not worth my time or energy. I have stated that I dislike the lack of co-parenting, that I am unhappy that I work very hard to adapt to your schedule, wants, and demands and when concerns are expressed there is no communication. At this point there is nothing more worth saying if that behavior will not change. "

Me (Pending):
"I really don't know how to move forward with you. You claim that you want to co-parent but you show absolutely no interest in doing so.
As an example let us use my request for a vacation week with Hailey. Copy and pasted directly from that thread:

"Hi Sarah,
I'm working with the hotel and my parents on a plan for a vacation week with Hailey this summer and wanted to bring you in for feedback.
I'm putting in a request for Sunday the 25th of July through Saturday the 31st (dropping off Hailey on Sunday the 1st of August).
Let me know if this week is still open for Hailey. If so I will let you know if I am approved for it."

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The message very clearly gives you opportunities to provide feedback and even asks you to. It asks you if this week is still open for Hailey. It says I am requesting but have not cleared anything with work. The context of the message implying that there is time to change things if you need me to.

Why do you interpret my requests as if they are aggressive, difficult and/or threatening when they clearly are not?

I put in a request for a vacation with Hailey more than three months ahead so we could work together and find the right time. At no point have you discussed Hailey's schedule with me about anything. If this week was the one bad week this year you should have replied with "We made some plans with Hailey. She's doing _insert activity here_. Sorry about that. How would _insert other week here_ work?"
A phrase like that shows that while a certain day/or days doesn't work you are at least trying to work with me to find one that does.
In most cases where I ask for a day and it's busy you just say "We're busy". You don't suggest anything, so then I have to suggest another schedule. Then you say you're busy again, and then I have to make another suggestion. That's not co-parenting; you're just making me guess your schedule instead of just telling it to me.
It would be even better co-parenting if you'd actually tell me Hailey's schedule ahead of time. You guys went out of town for a vacation recently and the first I heard about it was from Hailey after-the-fact. You could have easily told me what the plans for Hailey was this summer when you made them, rather than me stumbling over them when I requested my week.

You don't co-parent Sarah. You make me try to guess how you want to compromise and then you claim that I'm being difficult."
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My final message there hasn't been sent yet. I don't know if its properly worded or if I should send it at all. Just getting thoughts from you folks on how I should proceed.
The woman makes me so angry. Being out of the relationship should have meant I never had to deal with these relentless gaslighting arguments from her again.

I don't know. Will definitely come off as accusing her etc etc. But I definitely understand...
As for vacations out of town without your knowledge - keep close tabs on those. Most states don't allow Co-parents to cross state lines without express written approval of the other Co-parent. It may have been in-state this time, which I still think is wrong, but still. She's the type to take her on a week long cruise without telling you and then saying these trips had never before been a problem so why now blah blah.

From what I've seen, I imagine that last message would piss her off. But it's pretty much what I would say under the circumstances.

I can’t picture any message that wouldn’t anger her at the moment.

I’m really sorry that you’re dealing with this. You’ve given a ton of notice and are willing to accommodate. There shouldn’t be an issue this far in advance.

I am likely going to go with the following abridged reply instead of the one above.

Me: My request for the week of the 25th was written with clear invitations for you to provide feedback and let me know if the week worked for Hailey's schedule. If it did not you could have informed me of such, the reason why, and provided a suggestion for another week. The dates were only pending (as I stated) and could have been altered. As I had made the request 3 months in advance I felt assured that you would have already informed me of any conflicts that week.

I am confident that the judge will be able to look at all of our messages and identify you as the person being difficult and who is not co-parenting effectively.
But I still have hope that you and I will be able to work together in raising Hailey but that hope is quickly fading the more you resist compromising with me.

You can start making things better by informing me of every event/activity/class/vacation that you wish to schedule Hailey for. You are required to do so anyway, so I don't see why you have been failing to do so to this point.
This will be better than me having to guess your schedule with a request, being told no, and then having to guess again since you don't ever offer suggestions to help compromise.

Shawn said:

I am likely going to go with the following abridged reply instead of the one above.

Me: My request for the week of the 25th was written with clear invitations for you to provide feedback and let me know if the week worked for Hailey's schedule. If it did not you could have informed me of such, the reason why, and provided a suggestion for another week. The dates were only pending (as I stated) and could have been altered. As I had made the request 3 months in advance I felt assured that you would have already informed me of any conflicts that week.

I am confident that the judge will be able to look at all of our messages and identify you as the person being difficult and who is not co-parenting effectively.
But I still have hope that you and I will be able to work together in raising Hailey but that hope is quickly fading the more you resist compromising with me.

You can start making things better by informing me of every event/activity/class/vacation that you wish to schedule Hailey for. You are required to do so anyway, so I don't see why you have been failing to do so to this point.
This will be better than me having to guess your schedule with a request, being told no, and then having to guess again since you don't ever offer suggestions to help compromise.

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Unless it cost you money every time you interact with your lawyer, are you sending all of this to them as it happens or financially would you need to reach a tipping point to where it would be something you'd finally just go all in? Because, dude, the more time your daughter spends under her thumb, the more likely she's gonna be screwed up unless she's old/smart enough to see through mommy's BS.

Tiger Tsang said:

Unless it cost you money every time you interact with your lawyer, are you sending all of this to them as it happens or financially would you need to reach a tipping point to where it would be something you'd finally just go all in? Because, dude, the more time your daughter spends under her thumb, the more likely she's gonna be screwed up unless she's old/smart enough to see through mommy's BS.

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Costs money every time I interact. I need to make it count.
My problem is I'm currently on a work schedule that doesn't give me much freedom. I work overnights so I'm sleeping during the day usually and working at night. I can't leave her here by herself so overnights with me would be limited to my weekend. And since my weekend usually doesn't involve Friday and Saturday it's not very feasible to have her over mid-week due to school. The above conversation was me trying to get mid-week overnights during the summer.
When this changes (and I'm working on getting a day schedule) and I have better living arrangements I will go back to courts for more confirmed time with her. Honestly I'd like to have 50% physical custody.

I've saved some money and am trying to make plans to take Hailey to Disneyland this summer while the park is on minimal operations.
My biggest fear was always asking Sarah this because well... Sarah. I would likely get a response along the lines of "It would not be okay to let Hailey go to Disneyland when her siblings can't go" or some other BS reason she uses as an excuse. Surprisingly when I asked her if this is something I could plan and maybe get some open availability on my visit hours she said "Ok".
It's not much and it still isn't a yes to a particular date, but it's something.

Shawn said:

I've saved some money and am trying to make plans to take Hailey to Disneyland this summer while the park is on minimal operations.
My biggest fear was always asking Sarah this because well... Sarah. I would likely get a response along the lines of "It would not be okay to let Hailey go to Disneyland when her siblings can't go" or some other BS reason she uses as an excuse. Surprisingly when I asked her if this is something I could plan and maybe get some open availability on my visit hours she said "Ok".
It's not much and it still isn't a yes to a particular date, but it's something.

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That's a good start, but I wouldn't put it past her to pull out the rug, either, sadly.

Just out of curiosity, aside from the youngest kids, are Hailey's siblings bio-dad/dads (?) in the picture? Do they at least get some special time with them?

Celt Z said:

That's a good start, but I wouldn't put it past her to pull out the rug, either, sadly.

Just out of curiosity, aside from the youngest kids, are Hailey's siblings bio-dad/dads (?) in the picture? Do they at least get some special time with them?

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I don’t believe he is. When Sarah and I first got together she was going to court to get him limited visits, claiming he and his family were abusive. She got me to believe that about him too, despite any evidence other than her word (the kids were far too young at the time to add anything). For a while the most he got was monitored visits of two hours a week that he had to pay for since he couldnt pay child support.
Eventually those stopped too.
Sarah told me once that he heard about our divorce and was going back to court about the kids (Sarah asked me if I was working with him. I wasn’t). But so far Hailey hasn’t mentioned anything about the bio dad having visits again.
I don’t know much about him. I know he and Sarah supposedly met in a mental clinic of some kind while they were both staying there late 2000s. He seemed to love the kids but again my interaction was limited per Sarah’s preference.
She just tried very hard to replace me as the kids father.
Now I’m on the other side of that and I am questioning everything.

Surprisingly it looks like I will be taking Hailey to Disneyland in June.
Sarah had some "concerns" but nothing that didn't have simple answers or couldn't be resolved via a simple negotiation. So I am very surprised this will be happening.

She's smart enough to know that being the one to prevent a kid's trip to Disney guarantees a solid year+ of resentment.

I wouldn't be surprised if she attempts to sour the trip in some kind of manipulative way. Or announces a "change of plans" at the eleventh hour.

ThatNickGuy said:

I wouldn't be surprised if she attempts to sour the trip in some kind of manipulative way. Or announces a "change of plans" at the eleventh hour.

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It's possible. I'm being optimistic but cautious for now.
I had dinner with Hailey tonight. I'm not going to tell her about the trip until we get closer to it (maybe even not until the night before). So far Sarah hasn't said anything to her about it yet which is good.
One thing I thought that was interesting though is that Hailey told me tonight that they were going to Knotts Berry Farm on Tuesday. I have absolutely no idea if this was planned before I let Sarah know about Disneyland or it was as a result of. The timing is certainly odd but Hailey's been to Knotts with them before so maybe it's been something they have been wanting to do again for a while due to COVID. It may be selfish but I do hope that Hailey has her first Disneyland trip with me. They've taken her to so many places since my separation with Sarah that I was loosing hope that Disneyland would be something I could experience with her.
She loves watching the ride perspectives and behind the scene stuff with me. I know she's going to have so much fun with me either way, but that light in her eyes when she sees everything for the first time is going to be precious to me.

I thought an update was in order.

As mentioned on the picture thread my daughter's first time to Disneyland was a great success. She had a great time and even overcame her fear of some of the more intense rides so much that she wanted to do a few of them multiple times. Crowds were manageable and the heat hadn't quite gotten to unbearable levels at that time. She even got singled out a few times by staff members for fun interactions such as an "interrogation" by First Order troops and she got to wake-up the Enchanted Tiki Room. Her favorite rides in order were 1) Space Mountain 2) Thunder Mountain 3) Space Orbiter and 4) Rise of the Resistance.

Sarah, meanwhile, often continues to only do the bare minimum when co-parenting with me. I can't get her to share Hailey's schedules or what Hailey has been up to. I feel I have to always ask permission for things whereas Sarah does as she pleases without even checking with me if I approve. Some examples:
* During our trip to Disneyland I asked Sarah if there was any chance we could stay an extra hour to hit some rides we were likely to miss. She responded with "No. Hailey has a thing tomorrow". I found out later the "thing" was that a the wife of one of John's cousins was taking Hailey to Knotts Berry Farm. The timing of that was suspect of course, and I don't know this person Hailey was going with, but I would have allowed it. Just leaving me out of the loop is just completely vindictive.
* Recently I sent an email going over our visitation schedule for the next two months as I have an overnight planned in the middle of a week and a week-long vacation with her coming up. I just wanted to make sure that what I thought was the schedule was correct and that was how I worded it to Sarah. She read it 10 minutes after I sent it. A week and a half later and she has yet to reply.

My work schedule continues to make things difficult. I still have the dreaded "bartenders" schedule where I am stuck working overnights on Friday and Saturdays. Working overnights with no weekends off will make it challenging to have an overnights with Hailey and it will make it impossible to actually have her live with me any decent percentage of time. To make things even more complicated; my long-time night auditor supervisor has given his two weeks just as we are approaching my week vacation with Hailey at the end of the month. We just hired another night auditor, and thankfully he's a fast learner, but we're either going to have to have him work 7 days in a row or I'm going to have to work a few days overnight during my long-planned vacation week.
On top of that my night audit supervisor has been suspiciously taking frequent "sick days" the last few weeks on my days off, leaving no option but for me to come in to cover. One of these nights was even the night of my trip to Disneyland with Hailey. Hailey and I were able to have a full day that was unaffected by my having to come in, but I had to work an entire shift immediately after a full day of Disneyland AND I had court in the morning that I was expecting to be fully rested for. Luckily my day in court went well regardless.

I've recently had to move and luckily my roommates from my old place asked me to move to their new place with them and continue to be roommates. They have been wonderful and I couldn't ask for a kinder couple to live with. They make quite a bit more than I do and have given me a decent monthly rent for a room in the 4 bedroom home they are renting. They have even made one of the rooms a guest room and have told me that Hailey is welcome to use it any time she is overnight with me. They have said they would like to be on their own at some point but are happy to let me rent there for a year or two so they can save a bit of money. Along with doing my usual share of chores around the house I have offered to dog-sit for them whenever they need.

And one silly personal misstep on my part: I recently bought a shirt with the following design from Turtle Tees. I didn't think anything of it at first. I just kinda wanted to be one of those dorky dads who wears this kind of stuff. I was thinking about wearing it to Disneyland appropriately, but went with my Hades "I'm cool, I'm fine, I'm cool" tee instead. I came to realize that wearing something like that when my daughter has a (basically) step-dad is essentially me just trying to one-up him. I don't want to be that kind of person. Probably is one of those "who cares?" kinda scenarios for some folks but I think too hard about things like that. I'll wear it when I need a shirt when around the house, but not in front of Hailey.

Well, if there's a silver lining to all this, there are certain things you know for a fact:

1)Your ex is unlikely to ever change. The only way you can circumvent her behavior is by having more custody of Hailey. Unfortunately, this is most likely going to have to involve going back to court, and a change of lifestyle for you.

2)You may have to start looking for a different job. I know, I know; easier said than done. But in order to have Hailey, the hours you currently keep won't help you or her. Is there any hope that staying at your current job will open up a spot with better pay and more consistent hours? If it doesn't, it might be a good idea to start looking elsewhere. The good news is you still have your current job, and you have roommates that like having you around. You can look at their "1-2 more years" promise as a good motivator. You now have a deadline, instead of an unpleasant surprise one day.

I'm going to be looking for a new job in the meantime, but I'm mostly making this a 1-2 year plan. I had to recently take a loan out from my 401k to pay off my credit card debts. The loan is paid off in 2024 but if I leave my job earlier I will be required to pay the loan back immediately. There are day positions at the hotel in departments that only work Monday through Friday such as reservations, sales and accounting. Personally I'm very well suited for accounting but those positions start at hourly and do not pay what I need right now. The other departments are the same or require experience that I do not possess. The hotel controller position would be a position that I feel I could quickly pick up, but the current controller doesn't appear interested in leaving any time soon (he's been at the hotel longer than I have).
Finding a new job will be the best next option. But timing will be important too.

Last week I had one of my week vacations with Hailey. I get two a year. This time my parents were able to travel from Colorado to visit, which was a big deal as they had not seen Hailey in person for over three years. My parents stayed at the hotel I work at and we kept to local attractions such as Universal Studios and the Aquarium of the Pacific. It was a great week and Hailey had a lot of fun.
I received the usual "concerns" email from Sarah this morning.

Hello, I was going to send this on Monday but decided I needed to give it some time to sit prior to writing this. I will look at my schedule and let you know my response to your request either later today or tomorrow evening. 1) Hailey is 8 years old and should not be sharing a bed with a parent. It was expressed that she felt uncomfortable and could not sleep due to lack of clothing and scratching. l It seems like the request to move to the floor to sleep was rejected. 2) First right of refusal pertains to Vacations as well as visitations. 3) Requests to call during vacations or visitations should be granted. 4) It was expressed again, like last vacation, that a week is too long and that an overnight at the longest is preferred.

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Both I and my parents are livid. Especially about items 1 and 4.
1) Due to necessity Hailey and I shared a queen size bed one night while we stayed over with my parents at the hotel. I had boxers on and she was in full pajamas. Hailey never asked to sleep on the floor. I also know that she seemed to sleep just fine because I was the one up most of the night due to being too far from the A/C in the room. Sarah also never had an issue with this if it were a necessity in the past either. Just another one of her "You're the ex so NOW it's a problem" situations. Next time I'm just sleeping on the floor.
2) No idea what she's referring to here.
3) Hailey never asked to call Sarah. If she had I would have let her have a private phone call. I also confirmed with my parents that the never asked them either.
4) This is the one that pisses me off the most. Hailey never expressed any desire to go home early and said she had a lot of fun with us. Sarah alienated me from Hailey for a year and substituted her boyfriend John as Hailey's father almost immediately after our separation. After about a year and a half of regular visits we are just now getting to her being comfortable calling me "dad" again instead of "Shawn" and we're still working on her ability to tell me she loves me using words. If anything Hailey claiming she's not comfortable with a week is indication that she needs to spend MORE time with me.
I am her Father, and despite all of Sarah's comments, accusations, and even calls to the police and child services over things that didn't even occur at my place, I am a good, supportive and caring father with plenty of witnesses who will back me up on that claim.

A year and a half ago when I took Sarah back to court to get proper visits with Hailey (after she grossly abused the "by mutual agreement" wording of our first stipulation) she took me aside and said "I wish we could have been friends" and I agreed with her thinking it was still a possibility. It's been clear to me now for a while that what she meant was "I wish you would walk away from Hailey's life and leave her all to me.".

I checked on the "First right of refusal" comment and it's the right for a parent to say no to a babysitter and care for the child herself.
The context here is that I gave Hailey permission to stay overnight with her visiting grandparents at their hotel on 2 nights that week. Hailey had asked and I wanted her to bond more with them anyway.
Sarah's need for control means that even in that case I need to clear it with her ahead of time.

Shawn said:

I checked on the "First right of refusal" comment and it's the right for a parent to say no to a babysitter and care for the child herself.
The context here is that I gave Hailey permission to stay overnight with her visiting grandparents at their hotel on 2 nights that week. Hailey had asked and I wanted her to bond more with them anyway.
Sarah's need for control means that even in that case I need to clear it with her ahead of time.

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It's only a "right" if it's in the divorce decree. If it's not, tell her to pound sand.

Tinwhistler said:

It's only a "right" if it's in the divorce decree. If it's not, tell her to pound sand.

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It’s in there so I was technically in violation. But that’s clearly not what that clause is meant to be used for.

Shawn said:

It’s in there so I was technically in violation. But that’s clearly not what that clause is meant to be used for.

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Your ex sound so much like my first wife. Every time you tell stories, I feel a lot of sympathy for you. Good on you for stepping up to do the best parenting you can in spite of it.

My daughter tried out for the Rosebowl Aquatics pre-swim team Rose Buds and got accepted. Yay!
Classes are either Mon/Wed/Fri 6pm-7pm, Tues/Thur 6pm-7pm, or Sat/Sun 1pm-2pm.
Here is the problem: My ex says that the aquatics center wants Hailey to take the Sat/Sun class in particular.
Sunday is my one full day with Hailey. 10am to 7pm. (the other day is every other Friday from 4:30pm-7pm for a dinner).

I drive 25 miles just to pick up Hailey (my ex drives a block for comparison). The aquatics center is another 10-15 miles further in that direction.
Basically I'm looking at a 25 mile drive to pick up Hailey, 25 miles back to my place for a few hours, then 35 miles to her class, then 35 miles back to my place for a few more hours and then 25 miles to drop Hailey off and finally 25 miles back to my place. Or 170 miles in a single day.
I can off set this by remaining in the area for the few hours before and after the class, but our options of what we can do will be very limited.
We would not be able to do any full day activities like the zoo or Universal Studios (I purchased year passes for Hailey and myself) because of the class in the middle of the day like that. If it were at the beginning of the visit or the end that would be workable.

Knowing my ex I feel she is the type of person who would pick Sunday BECAUSE it is my day with Hailey. While the aquatics team offers weekday classes she has informed me that they want Hailey to take the weekend classes in particular, but never provided a reason why.

I have asked Sarah to try and schedule Hailey for the weekday classes on the grounds that Sunday is my only day with her. If she chooses the Mon/Wed/Fri schedule I would be happy to take Hailey to her class on my Friday dinners with her. I could even assist with other days during the week if needed. I am sure my ex will attempt to guilt me into Sundays still.

I have also directly contacted the Rosebowl aquatics center to ask them directly for pricing and why they apparently recommended Sat/Sun for Hailey. I cannot trust Sarah to provide me with accurate information (for example she told me it was $660 for a two day class when the site says $600).

Obviously part of being a parent is the errands in getting kids to and from events, etc. Despite the distance and cost of gas I am willing to assist with that on appropriate days. But am I selfish to feel that my Sundays with Hailey should not be disrupted by this class if there is another option?

Shawn said:

But am I selfish to feel that my Sundays with Hailey should not be disrupted by this class if there is another option?

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Naw man, fuck that if you can avoid it. When you talk to Rosebowl, I'd definitely mention the travel distance. But if it turns out there's good reasons for Sat/Sun, at least you'll have stories to tease your kid when she's older and has her own kids.

If it was anyone but your ex, I would say there was most likely a reason they'd recommend a Sat/Sun. But we all know your ex likes to be petty for petty's sake, so following up with the Rosebowl people is a good idea. And frankly, it shows good co-parenting if you're following up directly. A lot of times the scheduling falls to "mom" and dad's just go along. Since you want to be involved in Hailey's life and activities, speaking to the Rosebowl people directly shows you're taking an active role. You don't even have to mention it's because your ex is unreliable; just that you want to know how it's being run, and what can you do for Hailey.

Sarah informed me there is a waitlist for the weekday classes. That they recommend the sat/sun classes because ,despite them all being the same level, the class has students more at her pace, and the water is warmer in the middle of the day. She also added that she could put Hailey on the wait list but she would feel bad if Hailey started in the sat/sun class and moved after she already made friends.
If there is a wait list I feel we should be on it. If it means I take Hailey there while she’s on the wait list then so be it. But the other reasons are minimal in my opinion.
I will still be verifying with the aquatic center on these facts.

Been dealing with some court related stuff with Sarah and I've had to go through a bunch of texts from the last few years. I came across this one that I thought I'd share in its entirety and see what people thought of it. I don't know if anyone in this group is a therapist but I would love to see what they thought about it in particular.
This conversation occurred just a few months after our separation. I could go into context but I'd honestly just like to see what people think from just the conversation itself.

Me: What's up?

Her: Someone touched me again at work. In a way I didn't like.

Me: I'm sorry. That's awful.

Her: It happens. I feel gross and am deeply unhappy right now.

Me: I'm sorry that happened. I know you hate that such a thing happens to you frequently. I'm devastated for you. I know you don't like my advice as it's not relevant so I'm not going to give any. I'm here if you want to talk about it though. I'm sorry. I know John (her boyfriend) is being supportive.

Her: Yeah. He's actually being very sweet. Not accusing me of cheating. Just truly hearing me and understanding. I was terrified to talk to him based off your reactions. But all was okay and I cried for a good 30 min. My ass still hurts but at least I'm ok. And the guys a total fucktard.

Me: Did he rape you?

Her: Yup in the butt.

Me: Oh my God. I'm so sorry.

Her: Meh. Shit happens. It just was not nice. I don't feel good. I'm sad and will get over it shortly but feel crappy. Lmao. Too many ass puns for butt rape. (laughing emojis)

Me: I'm really sorry. Stuff like that shouldn't happen at all. I hope you're okay.

Her: And I talked it over with John. Don't want to go to her cause I start my new job in 2 weeks.

Me: I didn't understand that (Her message confused me. I didn't know who "her" was.)

Her: Yeah ppl were like right outside the door laughing, talking about work. No idea what was going on. HR.

Me: I hope you are okay. Let me know if you need anything.

Her: I feel sick and shut down.

Me: Don't forget you are a good person.

Her: I'll get over it I'm sure. This one was harder than any other though for some reason. Have to process why.

Me: It is awful regardless. Please be okay.

I'm really confused here. Is she implying John raped her? Or someone at work? Because if it's the latter, it sounds like it went from "touched inappropriately" to raped. There's a lot of mixed information in this.

Shawn said:

Been dealing with some court related stuff with Sarah and I've had to go through a bunch of texts from the last few years. I came across this one that I thought I'd share in its entirety and see what people thought of it. I don't know if anyone in this group is a therapist but I would love to see what they thought about it in particular.
This conversation occurred just a few months after our separation. I could go into context but I'd honestly just like to see what people think from just the conversation itself.

Me: What's up?

Her: Someone touched me again at work. In a way I didn't like.

Me: I'm sorry. That's awful.

Her: It happens. I feel gross and am deeply unhappy right now.

Me: I'm sorry that happened. I know you hate that such a thing happens to you frequently. I'm devastated for you. I know you don't like my advice as it's not relevant so I'm not going to give any. I'm here if you want to talk about it though. I'm sorry. I know John (her boyfriend) is being supportive.

Her: Yeah. He's actually being very sweet. Not accusing me of cheating. Just truly hearing me and understanding. I was terrified to talk to him based off your reactions. But all was okay and I cried for a good 30 min. My ass still hurts but at least I'm ok. And the guys a total fucktard.

Me: Did he rape you?

Her: Yup in the butt.

Me: Oh my God. I'm so sorry.

Her: Meh. Shit happens. It just was not nice. I don't feel good. I'm sad and will get over it shortly but feel crappy. Lmao. Too many ass puns for butt rape. (laughing emojis)

Me: I'm really sorry. Stuff like that shouldn't happen at all. I hope you're okay.

Her: And I talked it over with John. Don't want to go to her cause I start my new job in 2 weeks.

Me: I didn't understand that (Her message confused me. I didn't know who "her" was.)

Her: Yeah ppl were like right outside the door laughing, talking about work. No idea what was going on. HR.

Me: I hope you are okay. Let me know if you need anything.

Her: I feel sick and shut down.

Me: Don't forget you are a good person.

Her: I'll get over it I'm sure. This one was harder than any other though for some reason. Have to process why.

Me: It is awful regardless. Please be okay.

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What the fuck did I just read? She was brutally raped at work and went back to work. And did I read that right, did that happens multiple times before? Is that why I acted like that's just a normal thing?

She claimed she was raped at work. And yes, with the same concern as if someone had stolen her lunch from the break room
fridge.
Sarah claimed rape at wherever she was working at least few times during our marriage. Always never wanted to do anything about it. Always just treating it like a mild annoyance than anything else.
Truthfully I stopped believing her quickly. With all that I know now it seems clear they were false claims for attention. And with all the confirmed affairs she had during our marriage I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of the “rapes” were her admitting to an affair without having to actually admit it. My reaction to her claims were always more important to her than anything else.

No actual rape victim would EVER respond "Meh shit happens" to being raped. Nor initially describes it as "somebody touched me inappropriately."

This woman is a full on bunny boiler.

GasBandit said:

No actual rape victim would EVER respond "Meh shit happens" to being raped.

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I mean I’m no therapist or anything but I could totally see someone’s reaction to downplay it for no other reason than to not have to think about it being a big terrible thing that happened to them.

blotsfan said:

I mean I’m no therapist or anything but I could totally see someone’s reaction to downplay it for no other reason than to not have to think about it being a big terrible thing that happened to them.

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But that begs the question: Why bring it up in the first place, then?

GasBandit said:

No actual rape victim would EVER respond "Meh shit happens" to being raped. Nor initially describes it as "somebody touched me inappropriately."

This woman is a full on bunny boiler.

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Hi, as an abuse victim, let me assure you that trying to minimize and downplay can absolutely be a coping mechanism. That's not what's at play here, though, clearly.

blotsfan said:

I mean I’m no therapist or anything but I could totally see someone’s reaction to downplay it for no other reason than to not have to think about it being a big terrible thing that happened to them.

Click to expand...

Bubble181 said:

Hi, as an abuse victim, let me assure you that trying to minimize and downplay can absolutely be a coping mechanism. That's not what's at play here, though, clearly.

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I'm not going to sit here and tell you how your brain works, that would be pretty shitty.

But as Tinwhistler says..

Tinwhistler said:

But that begs the question: Why bring it up in the first place, then?

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This isn't minimizing or downplaying, if anything it's outright dismissal. This is "I'm telling you something that should make you treat me more favorably but I definitely don't want you to make a big deal about it and definitely we should not go to the cops about it, despite that being the obvious appropriate action."

Granted my experience with rape victims is limited only to my ex of 15 years, but it really beggars belief that anyone would treat it with the same level of gravity as stepping in dog doo.

And it happened with mind-boggling frequency, apparently.

No, this definitely does not smell at all authentic.

Oh, I absolutely agree about this case. I just responded to the overly broad generalization in your first sentence.

For some more context into this: Sarah's list of accusations of people doing horrible things of her is long and goes well back before I met her based on stories she and her parents would tell me. One of the first red flags I should have been aware of when we started dating was she accused my good friend of 7 years of touching her inappropriately. She made it clear to me at the time that she didn't want to make a big deal about it and definitely didn't want me to talk to him about it. I of course talked to him about it, he honestly denied it, and Sarah was seething mad at me for a week because I "betrayed" her.
A few years later, after we were married and Hailey was about 2, she decided to start volunteering for this guy who had a charity that was setting up vegetable gardens at schools. Suddenly this guy wanted to become a city elected official and Sarah got swept up quickly as his campaign manager (also on a volunteer basis). She was working LOOOOONG days with him, so much to the point that I had to start cashing in vacation days at work just so I could stay home with the kids. She had been hinting at this guy having a temper and also making her feel awkward for a while, until one day she came home and casually told me that he raped her. I was freaking out. Obviously we had to do something I told her, to which she said "no. No need". And I told her that she shouldn't obviously go back and she said "no. I'm not a quitter'. She ended up being more mad at me for how I reacted vs at the guy who "raped" her. She went back, and that continued for a few more weeks before he lost the election and Sarah left his "employment", only to join up with this disbarred lawyer that she met on the campaign who wanted to bring her in "ground level" on a campaign fund super PAC business, which of course would be non-paying until some actual money was made. She once again ended up spending entire 16 hour days with him, coming home and telling me how she was convinced her next career was going to be in politics, and that she needed to continue putting this stress on the family for the sake of that career. It didn't even occur to me she was having an affair with this guy until a friend at work asked me if that's what she was doing when I explained the situation to her.
Getting access to her Facebook account I found messages confirming the affair. She was able to gaslight me for a time, convince me of stupid stuff like "I faked those messages to make you jealous so you'd love me more" and allowed herself about another month of the affair before I caught them red handed and she admitted it. Months later she even started claiming THAT was rape the whole time.
I started thinking back about the politician that "raped" her and wondered if there was likely something going on there too. I contacted the guy's wife and asked if she suspected any kind of affair between the two of them (I left out the part where Sarah accused him of raping her) and she could only tell me "My husband wouldn't do that, but I can tell you that your wife really made me feel like I was unwanted in my own home whenever she was here".
So far the other three confirmed affairs she had after those she never claimed were rape. When she started working at JPL as a travel accountant (where she claimed she was raped above) there was apparently a guy at work that was sexually harassing her but he never did anything physical to her. The rape incident above was the most recent "rape" she told me about apart from claiming the disbarred lawyer had raped her for a period of 2 months, at his sister's condo, for 3 hours, three-four times a week.

Dude. There are just no words. Except one word for your ex.

Pathological.

I honestly can't grasp how she has custody and you just visitation rights.
Even if your accounts are exaggerated and only half is true, she needs in-patient treatment and a lot of therapy before being allowed to try and live in open society on her own.

Bubble181 said:

I honestly can't grasp how she has custody and you just visitation rights.
Even if your accounts are exaggerated and only half is true, she needs in-patient treatment and a lot of therapy before being allowed to try and live in open society on her own.

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Unfortunately my word against hers. Plus having serial affairs doesn't make her a bad mother. As far as I can tell Hailey is happy and healthy so I'm not afraid for her while she's in the care of her mother. I need a far better living/working situation before I can ask for more time. But if my ex does screw up and do something stupid that shows she's putting the kids in harm's way or is clearly abusing them, I will take her straight to court.

I went on a date on Monday. I thought it went very well. Fellow single parent, though she's all sorts of intelligent and had a kid via a donor just before she turned 40. We chatted.
I'm honest and did mention some of the frustrations of co-parenting. Did me in though as she emailed me later that evening and said that while I'm a nice guy she's worried about the drama in my life and doesn't want a 2nd date at this time. I agreed with her.
Not much I can do about it. Even if it comes up in conversation during a coffee meet-up or not it has to be brought up at some point.
Not sure which people above 40 don't have drama of some kind in their lives... although it's possible she doesn't since she went the donor method and seems to have her life together.
Oh well. Back to OKcupid.

While almost everyone will have some bagage, not everyone necessarily has still-active drama. While it absolutely sucks for you, I can understand someone noping out over it.
Also, of course, on a first date "I have a kid, and sometimes there are some issues with my ex" is pretty much more than enough. I wasn't there and don't know, so don't take this as an insult or judgement on you, but someone spending half their first date complaining/griping about their ex can also be a huge red flag.

Bubble181 said:

While almost everyone will have some bagage, not everyone necessarily has still-active drama. While it absolutely sucks for you, I can understand someone noping out over it.
Also, of course, on a first date "I have a kid, and sometimes there are some issues with my ex" is pretty much more than enough. I wasn't there and don't know, so don't take this as an insult or judgement on you, but someone spending half their first date complaining/griping about their ex can also be a huge red flag.

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Absolutely. Not quite what happened but it was brought up.

This Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial is important for me, as it really is putting a lot of light on women abusers in relationships.

I've been listening to the audios that Depp has brought to his case. It's actually difficult to do so. It really is. I start hearing how she's talking to him, how she's shaming him for running away from her and hiding in different rooms to flee the fights and the berating, and how she tries to gaslight him into thinking that her abuse is perfectly reasonable for the situation, and I start to well up. This was my life. This was my life for years. In the end I was the one who got put in the spotlight for "abuse" because I'm the male and therefore automatically the problem according to society. I called a domestic violence hotline once and asked them what I should do. They said "Just stay calm and take it until she walks away.". That's awful advice to "just take it" but sadly it's the only advice you can give to a guy in these situations. The second you defend yourself then you're fucked.
I hope cancel culture takes Amber Heard for a death spin.

I had a parent meeting with Hailey's therapist today. She has noticed that Hailey tends to be always in "happy mode" and doesn't seem to ever shift into other feelings. Hailey loves playing games which the therapist uses to set up a bond with her, but whenever questions about her feelings or about certain parts of her life come up she tends to re-route the conversation. This is exactly what I've seen. So it's not just me she's doing it for. She doesn't like to open up too much about things.
Therapist's advice was to just to remain being patient with her. I told her that one of my concerns is that I'm overcompensating as a parent: spending the entire day with Hailey. Doing what she wants to do. Playing dolls and legos with her. Taking her to movies. Disneyland twice last year. Universal with a year pass. Basically worrying that I'm being a Disney dad. The therapist actually made me feel good when she said "keep being a Disney dad. It's ok."

Shawn said:

I had a parent meeting with Hailey's therapist today. She has noticed that Hailey tends to be always in "happy mode" and doesn't seem to ever shift into other feelings. Hailey loves playing games which the therapist uses to set up a bond with her, but whenever questions about her feelings or about certain parts of her life come up she tends to re-route the conversation. This is exactly what I've seen. So it's not just me she's doing it for. She doesn't like to open up too much about things.
Therapist's advice was to just to remain being patient with her. I told her that one of my concerns is that I'm overcompensating as a parent: spending the entire day with Hailey. Doing what she wants to do. Playing dolls and legos with her. Taking her to movies. Disneyland twice last year. Universal with a year pass. Basically worrying that I'm being a Disney dad. The therapist actually made me feel good when she said "keep being a Disney dad. It's ok."

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My guess, just from what you've shared about your ex, is that she's learning this behavior from your ex wife, who probably punishes or otherwise negatively influences her if she doesn't act like everything is perfect

Ravenpoe said:

My guess, just from what you've shared about your ex, is that she's learning this behavior from your ex wife, who probably punishes or otherwise negatively influences her if she doesn't act like everything is perfect

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That's a very frightening thought because of how much sense it could make.

Shawn said:

That's a very frightening thought because of how much sense it could make.

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I'm not an expert, so you know, don't rely on me, but what you've described of your ex has been very controlling and narcissistic. She gaslights people into getting her way. I'm don't think she's grounding or formally punishing your daughter, but I'm sure she sends the clear message that she's not happy if you're upset, so a child's natural response to that is "if I get unhappy then Mommy gets mad at me."

Today has been quite a shock.
To lead up to things I have known that in the last month Sarah has made two trips to San Francisco. One with the whole family (her boyfriend John included) and one time with just Hailey. Hailey mentioned to me they were there to visit her friend "Erik". I've had my suspicions that she and this Erik have been spending some quality time together, but I figured that was between her and John. Today I was informed by Sarah that this Erik would be moving in within the next few weeks or months. When I asked what relationship this man would have with Hailey, she informed me that he will be Hailey's new step-father as they are getting married next week.
I'm not sure what status John is. She claims that he has moved out of the bedroom and into a spare room in the house. She also claims that she has been dating this guy for over 6.5 years and has been engaged for over a year. Since Sarah and I only separated 3.5 years ago I asked for clarification. So now that 6.5 years was them dating BEFORE she and I got together, and they have been back together for the last 9 months now. This is also concerning, because when we were together Sarah would claim that her boyfriend in Highschool Erik would violently cut her, and threaten to kill her family if she told anyone. She says that she ended up taking the blame for the cutting and that's what got her put into a mental health clinic by her parents. That same clinic is where she met the father of her first three kids. Personally I always thought that story was bull shit. The someone else cutting her part. I think she is more than capable of harming herself and blaming someone else.
But damn. She just gets crazier and crazier. I also have absolutely no idea how her (I guess ex boyfriend) john factors into all this? She always told me she was settling for him and was just using him for a second paycheck. But I saw the love letters that she sent him to initiate their relationship. She really hooked him and made him think it was true love. She even had him agree to having a baby with within a few months via in-vitro.
I honestly have no idea what to make of all this.

Shawn said:

Today has been quite a shock.
To lead up to things I have known that in the last month Sarah has made two trips to San Francisco. One with the whole family (her boyfriend John included) and one time with just Hailey. Hailey mentioned to me they were there to visit her friend "Erik". I've had my suspicions that she and this Erik have been spending some quality time together, but I figured that was between her and John. Today I was informed by Sarah that this Erik would be moving in within the next few weeks or months. When I asked what relationship this man would have with Hailey, she informed me that he will be Hailey's new step-father as they are getting married next week.
I'm not sure what status John is. She claims that he has moved out of the bedroom and into a spare room in the house. She also claims that she has been dating this guy for over 6.5 years and has been engaged for over a year. Since Sarah and I only separated 3.5 years ago I asked for clarification. So now that 6.5 years was them dating BEFORE she and I got together, and they have been back together for the last 9 months now. This is also concerning, because when we were together Sarah would claim that her boyfriend in Highschool Erik would violently cut her, and threaten to kill her family if she told anyone. She says that she ended up taking the blame for the cutting and that's what got her put into a mental health clinic by her parents. That same clinic is where she met the father of her first three kids. Personally I always thought that story was bull shit. The someone else cutting her part. I think she is more than capable of harming herself and blaming someone else.
But damn. She just gets crazier and crazier. I also have absolutely no idea how her (I guess ex boyfriend) john factors into all this? She always told me she was settling for him and was just using him for a second paycheck. But I saw the love letters that she sent him to initiate their relationship. She really hooked him and made him think it was true love. She even had him agree to having a baby with within a few months via in-vitro.
I honestly have no idea what to make of all this.

Click to expand...

I need to do it react with the durr face more than once for this:

And a few more for good measure:

Shawn said:

Today has been quite a shock.
To lead up to things I have known that in the last month Sarah has made two trips to San Francisco. One with the whole family (her boyfriend John included) and one time with just Hailey. Hailey mentioned to me they were there to visit her friend "Erik". I've had my suspicions that she and this Erik have been spending some quality time together, but I figured that was between her and John. Today I was informed by Sarah that this Erik would be moving in within the next few weeks or months. When I asked what relationship this man would have with Hailey, she informed me that he will be Hailey's new step-father as they are getting married next week.
I'm not sure what status John is. She claims that he has moved out of the bedroom and into a spare room in the house. She also claims that she has been dating this guy for over 6.5 years and has been engaged for over a year. Since Sarah and I only separated 3.5 years ago I asked for clarification. So now that 6.5 years was them dating BEFORE she and I got together, and they have been back together for the last 9 months now. This is also concerning, because when we were together Sarah would claim that her boyfriend in Highschool Erik would violently cut her, and threaten to kill her family if she told anyone. She says that she ended up taking the blame for the cutting and that's what got her put into a mental health clinic by her parents. That same clinic is where she met the father of her first three kids. Personally I always thought that story was bull shit. The someone else cutting her part. I think she is more than capable of harming herself and blaming someone else.
But damn. She just gets crazier and crazier. I also have absolutely no idea how her (I guess ex boyfriend) john factors into all this? She always told me she was settling for him and was just using him for a second paycheck. But I saw the love letters that she sent him to initiate their relationship. She really hooked him and made him think it was true love. She even had him agree to having a baby with within a few months via in-vitro.
I honestly have no idea what to make of all this.

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I've said it before, I'm say it a thousand times. Your ex is a narcissistic psycho who uses sex and relationship status to control people in order to validate her own feelings. She'll be be pregnant with this Erik person's kid soon if she isn't already, as having a child in her mind gives her leverage to control someone. She did it to you, she did it to John, she'll do it to the next guy once her current stock start to get wise, and she'll play the victim the entire time

Man, I am sorry you have to deal with all that, and that she's still got a lock on your daughter.. but boy am I glad you got out from under the thumb of that soul-crushing wackjob.

Is there any way you can get more custody of Hailey? Because none of this sounds like a healthy environment for her to be in full-time.

Celt Z said:

Is there any way you can get more custody of Hailey? Because none of this sounds like a healthy environment for her to be in full-time.

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I have reached out to my lawyer with that exact question. If I can somehow win full custody and be able to take Hailey to Colorado that would be a dream come true.

I need to process what I read there. I’m so sorry this is happening.

I hope that you are able to win more custody time as that sounds chaotic.

Been having difficulty keeping my mind off this.
Sarah still will not address my concerns. Completely ignoring them in fact.
1) Is this the Erik that she claims would cut her during high school? Truthfully it's probably just another of her false claims against an ex. Though if there is any reality to it then this is a guy that's going to be living with my daughter.
2) Hailey has met this guy twice. Sarah has been seeing him long distance for 9 months (this is not including the 6.5 years she was with him 13 years ago). I feel that this is moving things too fast for Hailey. Especially since Sarah's M.O. is to try and substitute old dads with the new "dads". I feel like Hailey is going to be exposed to Sarah's idea that father figures are disposable and replaceable.
3) John staying there in the guest room is going to likely be one heck of a powder keg ready to go off at any time. The replaced will literally be living with the replacement. It's going to be like a bizzaro Full House over there, but replace Bob Saget with Amber Heard.

While I doubt your ex has suddenly grown up and become as modern as all that - having a former partner and new partner together in one house can work in some modern family set-ups. Neither love nor parenting needs to be a two-person deal by default, even if our society is used to it.
Having said that, obviously, in this case that's not what's happening :-P I know the type of person (and without being sexist, this is usually women) who simply can't be alone and needs to be "in a relationship" at all times - which often leads to overlap and everything that entails. And they're usually not the most healthy of relationships, since "being part of one" is more important than being in one with the right other person.

Anyway, not very helpful. No idea how much rights you have as a co-parent to ask about a person who will be living with your child. Depending on your state such laws can vary wildly; if you're in conservative enough ground a "family" setup like that might be considered enough of an unhealthy influence on Hailey to change custody rules, though I doubt it.

Bubble181 said:

While I doubt your ex has suddenly grown up and become as modern as all that - having a former partner and new partner together in one house can work in some modern family set-ups. Neither love nor parenting needs to be a two-person deal by default, even if our society is used to it.
Having said that, obviously, in this case that's not what's happening :-P I know the type of person (and without being sexist, this is usually women) who simply can't be alone and needs to be "in a relationship" at all times - which often leads to overlap and everything that entails. And they're usually not the most healthy of relationships, since "being part of one" is more important than being in one with the right other person.

Anyway, not very helpful. No idea how much rights you have as a co-parent to ask about a person who will be living with your child. Depending on your state such laws can vary wildly; if you're in conservative enough ground a "family" setup like that might be considered enough of an unhealthy influence on Hailey to change custody rules, though I doubt it.

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My mentality does factor in the abuse that I got from Sarah when we were together. I know what she's like. I know that these decisions she makes are not based on logic and careful planning. They are impulses that she acts on in an effort to fuel her need to be adored and loved. It's the same reason she coaxes John in with promises of being a happy couple and even sending the poor man love letters so mushy that you'd swear they were written by a middle schooler. But at the same time she cheats on him once with me and spends the next few months after that semi flirting with me by suggesting our physical relationship can continue on the side and even sends me several nudes of herself (I think John even took one of them). I don't know if he's aware of these things. I'd speak to him about them but he's already expressed no interest in talking to me. Plus I don't think he'd believe me anyway, even if I showed him the texts and pictures.
Perhaps John even has the same situation coming up. He gets sex on the side and all he has to do is stick around, pay his share of the rent, and continue being a dad to the kids. But that kind of situation is bound to get very challenging at times once paranoia starts to peak.

Bubble181 said:

I know the type of person (and without being sexist, this is usually women)

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There are just as many men like this as well, it's a pretty common trait

Ravenpoe said:

There are just as many men like this as well, it's a pretty common trait

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I never said they didn't exist, just that, in my personal, anecdotal and purely unscientific experience, the "can't be alone" mentality seems to be more common in women than men. Perhaps because - certainly around here- women were still taught more often that their self worth and value lies in their partner rather than in themselves. I'm not saying it's some inherent negative feminine trait or whatever. Also, not at all the point of this thread or my post.

Bubble181 said:

I never said they didn't exist, just that, in my personal, anecdotal and purely unscientific experience, the "can't be alone" mentality seems to be more common in women than men. Perhaps because - certainly around here- women were still taught more often that their self worth and value lies in their partner rather than in themselves. I'm not saying it's some inherent negative feminine trait or whatever. Also, not at all the point of this thread or my post.

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My ex was adopted. Her adopted mother was a bit on the lack of loving side. It definitely factors in to her need to be loved and never alone.

We have gotten to point where Sarah took it upon herself to cancel two of my scheduled visits to go on a vacation. She did not ask permission, just let me know. I told her I would like a discussion next time first as a curtesy and wished them a good trip. When I asked for make up visits she has informed me that Hailey said “no thank you” to those requests (she is 9 as a reminder). When I asked to hear this from Hailey directly I was told that Hailey would rather the request just come from her mother. So again, I have no way of knowing if Hailey even said this or, if she did, if she is being manipulated by her mother in anyway.
Hailey is currently with a therapist who is encouraging us to allow hailey to make choices for herself. But at what point do I draw the line as we have officially gotten to the point that Hailey’s choices (supposedly) are now keeping me from seeing her on our court negotiated schedule.

Yeah, I trust these are "Hailey's" decisions as much as I trust Icarus to babysit my [hypothetical] daughter.

I don't know anything about shared custody but is this not a violation of it? Keeping her from you and keeping you from speaking with her?

Far said:

I don't know anything about shared custody but is this not a violation of it? Keeping her from you and keeping you from speaking with her?

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She's manipulative. She'll poison his daughter against him, then use manipulated out-of-context data and conversations to get lawyers and judges to side with her. It's a really shitty situation. The sad fact of the matter is that aside from a few rare victories, fathers are at the mercy of the mothers for access to their kids, usually.

GasBandit said:

She's manipulative. She'll poison his daughter against him, then use manipulated out-of-context data and conversations to get lawyers and judges to side with her. It's a really shitty situation. The sad fact of the matter is that aside from a few rare victories, fathers are at the mercy of the mothers for access to their kids, usually.

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I understand that but I guess I just assumed that was only in situations where custody hadn't been already court decided. This seems to be going directly against court orders. I don't know enough about the exact ruling but it would seem like if she's able to just keep Hailey without ever allowing him any visitation, or anyone else independent confirming that these are actually Hailey's wishes, then what is the point of having had the ruling to say he does get visitations. If he can't have them enforced it seems futile. So sorry you're put in this situation @Shawn .

Basically I am in a predicament.
I have a set visitation enforced by the court that is set in stone. I could enforce it but then I open myself up to Sarah not being flexible about other things such as being willing to change the day of a visit. For example I have Hailey 1 entire week during her Christmas break, from Sunday 10am to Sunday 10am. This year Christmas falls on a Sunday and this is Sarah's year to have Christmas with Hailey, so I have requested the week with me be the next Wednesday to the following Wednesday. This is also beneficial for me because it allows for cheaper flight rates since I plan to take Hailey to Colorado this year and it allows us to not have to fly back on New Years Eve. If I start enforcing the visits she is going to say "Sorry. Sunday to Sunday because that's what's in the stipulation". She is petty like that.
My solution right now is telling her that I am expecting to keep Hailey overnight on Sunday unless I hear directly from Hailey herself.

I have emailed Sarah the following.

Sarah, I am retiring the previous two threads to combine them here as they deal with the same matter. I am letting you know that I will be enforcing both my dinner visit tonight and an overnight Sunday visit on the 14th. These are due to me not receiving my regularly scheduled visits the previous week, which was a decision that you made without my input ahead of time. After this makeup dinner tonight, and the overnight on Sunday we will carry on the following week in our normal schedule. With a dinner on the 19th and a regular Sunday visit on the 21st. You wish Hailey to be able to have choices and I agree up to a point. Her visits with me are important and are non negotiable. However Hailey has many choices during the visits such as what we do, what we eat, etc. She is 9 years old and you should not be letting her decide if she wants to see me or not. This needs to be an established part of her routine, just like school, her therapist, sports, etc.

Shawn said:

I have emailed Sarah the following.

Sarah, I am retiring the previous two threads to combine them here as they deal with the same matter. I am letting you know that I will be enforcing both my dinner visit tonight and an overnight Sunday visit on the 14th. These are due to me not receiving my regularly scheduled visits the previous week, which was a decision that you made without my input ahead of time. After this makeup dinner tonight, and the overnight on Sunday we will carry on the following week in our normal schedule. With a dinner on the 19th and a regular Sunday visit on the 21st. You wish Hailey to be able to have choices and I agree up to a point. Her visits with me are important and are non negotiable. However Hailey has many choices during the visits such as what we do, what we eat, etc. She is 9 years old and you should not be letting her decide if she wants to see me or not. This needs to be an established part of her routine, just like school, her therapist, sports, etc.

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This is a good approach.

I know you want to be able to be flexible but with someone like this you can't. Stick to the court appointed schedule and enforce it. There is no room for friendly negotiation with someone that operates in bad faith, and by this point you have to assume everything she does is in bad faith.

Shawn said:

View attachment 42228

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Not reacting to her is the best course of action, keep it civil and brief.

What was the result of that voice text that Hailey was apparently going to send you? How did she sound?

Shawn said:

Redacted

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Link's not working. Although to be honest, I wouldn't recommend posting the audio of your daughter like that.

ThatNickGuy said:

Link's not working. Although to be honest, I wouldn't recommend posting the audio of your daughter like that.

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Good point. Removed just in case.

ThatNickGuy said:

What was the result of that voice text that Hailey was apparently going to send you? How did she sound?

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It kinda felt scripted.

I certainly hope you are documenting/communicating this with the relevant counsel(ors).

--Patrick

We had a parents meeting with Hailey's therapist today. I admit I was concerned she was going to try and recommend that I let Hailey choose visits, as Sarah has been claiming that the therapist has been telling her. However I was relieved when the therapist instead brought up that she is in no way involved with court ordered visitation. She told us that all that is important is making Hailey comfortable, even if it is comfortable doing something that she may not want to do such as visitation. However, it doesn't seem that Hailey is uncomfortable with it at all, despite Sarah's claims. In fact the therapist mentioned that Hailey likes the consistency of it and is absolutely fine so long as there is a schedule (which there is).
Sarah did not like that. At one point the therapist asked her to be open about her feelings ("because I can see you seem frustrated and want to say something") and Sarah basically told her that she was wrong and that it is not okay to make Hailey do something she doesn't want to do. Sarah cussed quite a bit. Told the therapist that she doesn't know anything because Hailey lies to her all the time about things and then comes tell Sarah the truth after the sessions. Etc.
I just stayed quiet on that one. When it was my turn to speak I just asked her about something I could do differently during my visits, which she answered, and we ended the session on time and both of us quickly logged out of the video chat without saying anything to Sarah.
It was intense. We didn't accomplish much honestly with the session, but I do think the Therapist has a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

Today is my usual Friday dinner with Hailey where we spend 2 and a half hours together. I am not seeing her on Sunday as we alternate Holidays each year. So I made plans for us to decorate gingerbread cookies today. I bought everything we needed, spending about $100 and took the time to make the cookies in advance yesterday. I wake up today and find an email from my ex saying she "forgot" about a family planned event tonight and that Hailey will not be making the dinner.

Shawn said:

Today is my usual Friday dinner with Hailey where we spend 2 and a half hours together. I am not seeing her on Sunday as we alternate Holidays each year. So I made plans for us to decorate gingerbread cookies today. I bought everything we needed, spending about $100 and took the time to make the cookies in advance yesterday. I wake up today and find an email from my ex saying she "forgot" about a family planned event tonight and that Hailey will not be making the dinner.

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That sucks. And I'm sure you don't need me to tell you to document it for the lawyers.

I was able to see Hailey tonight. I called her out on her bullshit and she backpaddled immediately, though not without trying to single me out as the problem.
While she can be very frustrating, I am thankful that Sarah cannot hide her machinations and difficult nature very well.
I don't have to explain a situation and hope someone will believe my side of things. I just have to show them texts and emails and let them make judgement calls on their own.

Good for you, man. I can only imagine how frustrating and exhausting it is to deal with your ex.

On Sunday I attended Hailey’s piano recital. I didn’t sit next to her as she already had Stepdad #1 and a friend from soccer sitting on both sides of her.
Hailey played wonderfully. I’m so very proud of her. After the recital I went up to her and let her know how wonderful she was. She didn’t respond at all. She didn’t even look up. It didn’t seem to be mean spirited. Usually she’s reserved around me when anyone from Sarah’s cult is around, only speaking to me when I speak to her first. But nothing at all on this one. As they were getting in the car I told her “I won’t see you next weekend so Merry Christmas!”. Again no response and no acknowledgement of me even existing. I’m certainly hurt and confused. I’ll talk to Hailey in a constructive way when I have her alone again. Hopefully I can understand what she was feeling at the time.

The responsible and adult part of me also wants to reach out directly to Stepdad 1 and at least talk to him about Hailey’s lack of response and also his own lack of response to that.
But my ex is not a responsible adult, and as she would inevitably hear about my discussion I feel she would do her best to make things even harder for me going forward.

My daughter has soccer games every weekend usually, including the alternate weekend that I don’t have her. Sarah doesn’t typically send me information on these games, because she’d much rather I not come. So I have to ask for them.
Yesterday morning I emailed Sarah for the game times this weekend and never heard back. Tonight at 7, when I dropped off Hailey after dinner I asked Sarah and her husband to please send me the times.
An hour later I hadn’t heard back from them so I texted “Apologies for bothering you. May I request the game times and addresses before it gets too late?”
She responded by replying to my earlier email with the times (one of which is a game that was in 12 hours at the time of the email) and claiming that my impatience was unwarranted.
Was it?

There was no impatience on your part. This is her game, she's trying to make you doubt yourself. Don't. You did nothing wrong here.

I regret that I've not been a part of these discussions here - I might have been able to weigh in something, but as usual the rockstars here at Halforums appear to be steering you correctly.

Re: the most recent update, this appears to just be yet another in her long history of gaslighting you into doubting yourself and your actions. She can't bait you if you don't bite at it.

You've done amazingly under some pretty nasty circumstances. She appears, through what you've shared, to be the stereotypical divorceezilla. In spite of her worst efforts, your daughter still wants to be around you and visit you regularly. She talks - hell, she communicates better with you than my daughter does with me, and we're all together! - and she doesn't appear to be succumbing to the propaganda.

Keep on trucking, dude. You've got a solid support network, and you seem to be plodding a steady course. Don't let her try and get in your OODA loop - you're doing the right thing, and it's not "BAD MAN" behavior to want to stay in your daughter's life within the provisions that were given through the courts. Stay the course, hold the line. She'll love you all the more for it when she's old enough to fully comprehend just how hard you've fought for her.

Officer_Charon said:

I regret that I've not been a part of these discussions here - I might have been able to weigh in something, but as usual the rockstars here at Halforums appear to be steering you correctly.

Re: the most recent update, this appears to just be yet another in her long history of gaslighting you into doubting yourself and your actions. She can't bait you if you don't bite at it.

You've done amazingly under some pretty nasty circumstances. She appears, through what you've shared, to be the stereotypical divorceezilla. In spite of her worst efforts, your daughter still wants to be around you and visit you regularly. She talks - hell, she communicates better with you than my daughter does with me, and we're all together! - and she doesn't appear to be succumbing to the propaganda.

Keep on trucking, dude. You've got a solid support network, and you seem to be plodding a steady course. Don't let her try and get in your OODA loop - you're doing the right thing, and it's not "BAD MAN" behavior to want to stay in your daughter's life within the provisions that were given through the courts. Stay the course, hold the line. She'll love you all the more for it when she's old enough to fully comprehend just how hard you've fought for her.

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I appreciate that very much. Thank you. Everyone here has indeed been very supportive.

Is there not another source for this info? Coach? School website? Other parent? I wouldn't want rely on her for anything and give her any sort of power.

drawn_inward said:

Is there not another source for this info? Coach? School website? Other parent? I wouldn't want rely on her for anything and give her any sort of power.

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I talked to the coach on Saturday and did get added to the app. Initially my ex told me only one person each family could have access to the information via a site, but not only was that false I found out that access to the app allows you to add other family members to have access.
Which is a good thing I did. This next weekend there is a tournament in San Diego (which requires a two hour drive) that apparently I was only going to be told about by Sarah no earlier than Thursday.

Shawn said:

I talked to the coach on Saturday and did get added to the app. Initially my ex told me only one person each family could have access to the information via a site, but not only was that false I found out that access to the app allows you to add other family members to have access.
Which is a good thing I did. This next weekend there is a tournament in San Diego (which requires a two hour drive) that apparently I was only going to be told about by Sarah no earlier than Thursday.

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Just out of curiosity, are they using Teamsnap?

Shawn said:

Initially my ex told me only one person each family could have access to the information via a site, but not only was that false I found out that access to the app allows you to add other family members to have access.

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I’m sure you’re aware, but you should probably just assume that everything you’re ex tells you that makes your life harder is a lie.

Celt Z said:

Just out of curiosity, are they using Teamsnap?

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Yes.

Shawn said:

Yes.

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That's good news. Once you've made an account, you'll basically be able to follow her from now on. All of the organizations around here use it, and as long as they know your registered, you should get every update.

Celt Z said:

That's good news. Once you've made an account, you'll basically be able to follow her from now on. All of the organizations around here use it, and as long as they know your registered, you should get every update.

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Hailey is also with the AYSO team this year. Sarah has yet to give me that info despite asking for it. I’m assuming the app only allows you access to other team info if you are invited to it?

Shawn said:

Hailey is also with the AYSO team this year. Sarah has yet to give me that info despite asking for it. I’m assuming the app only allows you access to other team info if you are invited to it?

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If you reach out to the coach, they can add you. Usually the coaches will add anyone on the registration. I don't know if your ex will include your info when she registers Hailey, but that's the best way.

Got a call from Child Protective Services today. Hailey is fine, and Sarah isn’t trying to claim I did something this time surprisingly. Apparently it has something to do with my step-boys. The agent couldn’t give me much on the specifics. Just asked me a few questions and assured me Hailey and the boys were fine. So not sure what it’s all regarding.
The boys are 13 now. I haven’t seen them going on 6 years.

So this came out of nowhere tonight.
Sarah was assistant coach on Hailey’s soccer club team. Hailey and the team really showed a lot of improvement over the year and I have been so proud of them.
She loved playing and never wanted to miss a single game whenever possible.
This feels like a big set back. Sarah didn’t get the control over the team like she wanted and now it feels like shes punishing Hailey for it.
Back when we were still married she signed the boys up for boyscouts and joined a local troop. Sarah wanted to be an assistant troop leader and was given the opportunity. Shortly after she kept making a lot of complaints to me that the troop wasn’t using a lot of her ideas. Eventually she decided to leave the troop and start her own, with the boys as its first scouts.
This is the first I heard that anyone had issues with her coaching. But she can’t hide that narcissistic need to control things of hers for long I suppose.
I need to talk with Hailey tomorrow. Hopefully I can ask her some appropriate questions to help her express how she truly feels about this. She was so bonded with that team this is a real shame.

Got fed up and probably made a mistake tonight.
A week ago I found out that Sarah submitted Hailey's last name as her married name onto the TeamSnap app for her new soccer club team. I edited it to her proper last name after.
I texted her husband and asked him to not allow that to happen anymore as it was crossing a line. It's his name after all and Sarah wouldn't listen if I told her directly. He said the coach clearly assumed that was her last name and entered it himself.
Tonight she sent me a bill for some soccer equipment she ordered for Hailey. The order form showed Hailey (married last name) as the recipient.
I texted Erik again with a screenshot of the name, asking him to cease and desist. He lashed back.
My response, I regret, was sending him a text chat of myself and another of Sarah's exes discussing how we know Erik from the violent stories that Sarah told us back when we were each dating her.
His response of course was to call me a liar.
In response to that I texted John several of the texts Sarah sent me the first few months they were dating. Including discussing a nude she sent me, how she was only settling for John, and how she would tell him she never planned to marry anyone again if he ever asked.
He also responded with a Fuck you message, calling me a liar and abusive.
Not my brightest move. I guess I shouldn't have expected it would ever go as well as I hoped. They are just as messed up mentally as I was when I was with Sarah.
I'm leaving it at that. Both of them have demanded I not contact them again so I'm going to do so.
I guess a harassment claim could come of this but not sure how much water it will hold. I sent some screenshots of chats, and some texts with just context of those chats. Never threatening. Never aggressive in tone. Just facts.
But I still regret it now with the responses that I got.

I have contacted my lawyer about the last name thing. I'm going to insist on some kind of cease and desist from him to her so its on record.

Sarah sent an Ex Parte notice yesterday to my lawyers stating she is seeking full legal custody and no visitation to me. She didn’t specify her reasons on the form but it’s likely due to a recent CPS investigation on yet another disturbing yet bogus claim she made that I’m sexually abusing Hailey during my visits.
Lawyer is on it and doesn’t seem concerned.
but it’s a reminder of how much I hate my ex.

I feel like obviously bogus claims of sexual assault would be good for you in terms of showing a pattern of untrustworthiness.

blotsfan said:

I feel like obviously bogus claims of sexual assault would be good for you in terms of showing a pattern of untrustworthiness.

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I mean it’s great if that ends up happening.
There is always the possibility this goes south for me or somehow things get worse. Lawyer is on it and is positive. We are going to use this to get me some more time now that my schedule is finally changing to Monday - Friday morning hours.

Can you sue for libel? I don't know law at all, but I would lose my fucking shit if I was accused of that. Sorry dude. Holy fuck.

drawn_inward said:

Can you sue for libel? I don't know law at all, but I would lose my fucking shit if I was accused of that.

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You would have to prove definitively that she knew the accusations were fake, or that she disregarded obvious evidence that the accusation was not accurate. It would be very hard to win that case.

Oh also idk how you’ve been before this but assuming this all goes away, I wouldn’t give her an ounce of civility or reasonableness beyond what is legally required for the rest of your life.

The judge granted Sarah the postponement of my visitation until court next month. So now it’s onto my lawyer.

I went to Hailey's games over the weekend but I my ex and her men kept Hailey apart from me. I didn't push it to avoid further issue as the last time I tried to talk to Hailey at a game my ex screamed that I was harassing them and they would call the police.
Sarah is citing the texting incident as part of her complaint, stating that I was trying to destroy their family with the texts. Then, as if it's a secondary thought, she's including mentioning a recent Family Services investigation that is still pending as the reason for the visitation disruption. The investigation is into some more heavily exaggerated tales and lies that Sarah has made and is having Hailey bring up in therapy. Just the norm for Sarah. Lawyer is on it. Court is the 24th. Just hoping all goes well. Honestly not sure just how devastated I will be if I lose my visits with Hailey.

Reconnecting with your daughter after a period of alienation can be challenging, but your dedication and thoughtful approach are critical. Also regular, consistent visits help establish stability. Even if it's just virtual contact during the week, it reinforces your role in her life.

Given their past history and challenges present, do you have any advice on how to achieve that?

--Patrick

Sarah has made getting more time, and even keeping the time I already have a challenge. Her usual tactic is making plans for Hailey during my schedule, telling me last minute, and then make me either agree with no chance for a make-up visit “coparenting is letting your kid decide her schedule. Deal with it” or having me force the visit where she lets Hailey know that I’m not letting her participate in the thing that was planned in favor of being with me, making me the bad guy

Six years ago, and I don’t think she’d ever repeat it this way, but it’s still what she thinks every time.

Wowwww.

I legitimately think this should be entered into evidence. I'm not even kidding. It speaks volumes.
Like, not only will they not be available for some unspecified reason, but she is specifically calling out that she doesn't consider you, the father, to be "family."

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Wowwww.

I legitimately think this should be entered into evidence. I'm not even kidding. It speaks volumes.
Like, not only will they not be available for some unspecified reason, but she is specifically calling out that she doesn't consider you, the father, to be "family."

--Patrick

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We’re using it.
She tries to say it’s out of context in later parts of the text but it still is a huge concern.

I was thinking more for things like if she pursues child support:
"Why should I support a child you don't let me see?"
"Because you have to. It's your duty as a father."
"Oh, NOW I'm the father?"

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

I was thinking more for things like if she pursues child support:
"Why should I support a child you don't let me see?"
"Because you have to. It's your duty as a father."
"Oh, NOW I'm the father?"

--Patrick

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It’s good for showing alienation and parental substitution mostly, which is what we are using it for. She’s keeping me from seeing my kid and putting other father figures ahead of me. I’m never going to argue child support.

Shawn said:

Sarah has made getting more time, and even keeping the time I already have a challenge. Her usual tactic is making plans for Hailey during my schedule, telling me last minute, and then make me either agree with no chance for a make-up visit “coparenting is letting your kid decide her schedule. Deal with it” or having me force the visit where she lets Hailey know that I’m not letting her participate in the thing that was planned in favor of being with me, making me the bad guy

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As a child of a narcissist, I feel I want to weigh in on this while admittedly mapping Sarah's behavior to the way my mother would think.

Here's my advice: Be the bad guy. "Oh, you made plans? How unfortunate that you'll have to break them, it seems you lost track of the dates I get Hailey." Her tactic isn't just targeted at you, it's as much maybe even more a carrot/stick for Hailey. She gets "rewarded" for choosing to stay home when it's presented as such, with the implication that she'll be deprived of those events and family bonding time if she expresses that she wants to spend time with you. Even if Sarah is successful for the time being at making Hailey think it's mean ol' dad stopping her from having fun, it's a short term victory. She's rapidly approaching the teenage years where she'll be able to pick up on adult bullshit. Hailey presumably knows what days she's supposed to be with you. She'll see the pattern that Sarah is scheduling things for those days on purpose. As she gets older, she'll remember which parent fought for every minute they could spend with her and which one made a sick game of preventing it. Be immovable and Sarah is forced to see you, not Hailey, at "fault" for not getting her way in order to maintain her internal logic. She wants to see herself as "winning" at being the favored parent, and she knows she can't do that if she keeps punishing Hailey for you enforcing your rights.

David said:

As a child of a narcissist, I feel I want to weigh in on this while admittedly mapping Sarah's behavior to the way my mother would think.

Here's my advice: Be the bad guy. "Oh, you made plans? How unfortunate that you'll have to break them, it seems you lost track of the dates I get Hailey." Her tactic isn't just targeted at you, it's as much maybe even more a carrot/stick for Hailey. She gets "rewarded" for choosing to stay home when it's presented as such, with the implication that she'll be deprived of those events and family bonding time if she expresses that she wants to spend time with you. Even if Sarah is successful for the time being at making Hailey think it's mean ol' dad stopping her from having fun, it's a short term victory. She's rapidly approaching the teenage years where she'll be able to pick up on adult bullshit. Hailey presumably knows what days she's supposed to be with you. She'll see the pattern that Sarah is scheduling things for those days on purpose. As she gets older, she'll remember which parent fought for every minute they could spend with her and which one made a sick game of preventing it. Be immovable and Sarah is forced to see you, not Hailey, at "fault" for not getting her way in order to maintain her internal logic. She wants to see herself as "winning" at being the favored parent, and she knows she can't do that if she keeps punishing Hailey for you enforcing your rights.

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Thank you. I appreciate that. I’m so sorry you had to (have to?) deal with that. I dealt with my narcissist as a major part of my life for 7 years. You’ve had to deal with yours your entire life. It is a little comforting however to be able to hope that Hailey will catch on just as you did.
You only got to meet Sarah briefly when you visited that time. I wonder if you ever suspected what I was really going through at the time or if we just put on a good show for you. I think at the time she was having her first affair that I was aware of. I was already suffering from sleep deprivation and severe depression I’m sure. That was still a year or two into our marriage but it was already having a hugely negative impact on me.

Truthfully, I had no idea just from the handful of times I met her, at least not until you started writing what you were going through on the forums. I'm still in the process of looking back and learning how things I grew up with and thought were "normal" in my childhood weren't okay, and I was probably much less equipped to identify anything 10 years ago when I met you guys in person. The best advice I can give at the moment is just make sure Hailey develops self confidence, knows she can talk to you without fear of judgement, knows she's not responsible in the slightest for anything going on, and that she learns much earlier than I did what "gaslighting" is and how to identify it. I believe I read earlier in the thread a long time ago that she already has individual therapy sessions going through this, and if so that's already amazing and a resource I never had.

We met in court yesterday. Things did not go as well as I hoped but perhaps there is a silver lining.

Sarah has claimed, that while there is an open case of some kind, that my visitation should be postponed. Despite both the initial police investigation and the Family Services investigation being closed there is apparently ANOTHER police investigation open that I haven't even been contacted about. Based on jurisdiction of the office taking the call it sounds like Sarah is just yet again claiming that I was abusive to the kids when I lived with her almost 6 years ago now. This was already investigated by DCFS and the police back then. But hey... I guess that shouldn't stop them from doing it again right?
Sigh.

Hailey has been appointed a minor's council which is good. My lawyer likes the person they appointed and thinks she will be very diligent in finding out if Sarah is manipulating Hailey. This is good.

The Judge dictated that we would meet again on August 26th and then said we would keep the no visitation orders in place until then, due to the open police case. This is really bad.

My lawyer argues that I need the right to see my kid because the time apart is hurting our relationship. Judge approved professionally monitored visits. This is less bad but still sucks. I don't have the financial capability of doing this for two months while we wait for the next court date. Especially since I have to keep paying my lawyer. Basically once all of this is done I'm going to be in so much damn debt that its exhaustingly depressing to even think about. I doubt I'll be retiring until I'm in my 80s. Assuming I even live that long.

The company we found for visits seems like they will be a good fit. Their online reviews show almost a 50/50 assortment of 1 and 5 star reviews, with custodial parents giving the lowest scores. So if they make Sarah unhappy that's fine with me. My lawyer has approved of the choice as he has worked with the company before and even recommended a particular monitor. He hopes that the reports provided by the agency will go a long way to help us in the long-run.

So for now I'm going to see Hailey for up to 3 hours every Saturday. But I have to pay for someone to be around us. I will also receive 2 facetime calls a week with Hailey. Max of 15 minutes but Hailey can disengage whenever she wants.

The worst part about all of this is that the damage is already extensive beyond what I initially thought. My first call with Hailey lasted less than 3 minutes when she just commented "I don't want to talk to you" and hung up the phone.

My soul is shattered.

The head of the monitor group I’ll be using called me. Apparently Sarah insisted that Hailey would not be attending the visits because it will be impossible to get her out of the car, as she doesn’t want to see me that much.
I saw her last early May. She was fine then. If the phone call and this statement is true she’s done a complete 180 to be so uncomfortable with me that she can’t talk or see me.
Sarah is not in compliance and it will be reported. Sarah has been pushing for a monitored visit for me for years. She finally gets her way and I now hope they make her miserable.

We planned for two hour visit on Saturday. It didn’t happen.
The monitor tried to get Hailey out of the car but she kept saying she was scared. I asked the monitor later what tone Hailey had and he said “flat” which seems more “I’m doing what I’ve been expected to do” rather than actual fear.
This is nightmare. She won’t talk to me with phone calls. She won’t see me during monitored visits. Sarah is so convinced she’s won she’s even stopped reading our coparenting emails.
I’m talking to my lawyer today. We need a new strategy. We need to push the fact that Sarah is alienating me and we can’t trust her to make visits or calls happen without some kind of punishment for not complying. I just don’t know how successful that will be. But we can’t wait until our next court date of August 26th.

It sounds like you need a court-appointed psychologist to do an assessment. My guess is that your ex will not agree with that.

MindDetective said:

It sounds like you need a court-appointed psychologist to do an assessment. My guess is that your ex will not agree with that.

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Even if she did I think the cost on something like that is minimum $10k. I’m hopeful my lawyer has a plan. We have a minor’s council for Hailey that was appointed and my lawyer knows her on a professional level and thinks it’s a good thing for us. In the end we need to at least get a recommendation from her that I should be part of Hailey’s life and that steps must be taken to repair our relationship.

Nothing has changed. H still won’t talk to me on the phone or get out of the car during the visits. Her mother obviously won’t say she’s encouraging it, but it’s clear as day that she is. H even says the same thing, every single time she answers the phone just before she hangs up. “I don’t want to talk to you”. Just as scripted.
My lawyer said he was going to work on a strategy. Haven’t heard back from him in about a week. I’m sure it’s fine as he’s a busy man. But can’t help but feel helpless right now.

We subpoenaed intake notes from the monitor company, so we could see what S said about me during her conversation with them. Apparently, on a nightly basis, I was coming to the house to beat and rape her for several months, until J moved in with her to stop me from doing so. Also, when she first went to the police to falsely accuse me of domestic violence, apparently she refused to press charges against me and so the police "beat her from head to toe".
No change in phone calls or visits. I still haven't seen H for months. Phone calls are still the same, where she answers and then hangs up on me. I thought for a moment she was going to stay on the phone with me tonight as a few seconds went by without her saying anything. I asked her if we could talk just a moment and then she finally said "I don't want to talk to you". I was at least able to tell her I loved her before she hung up this time.

Your ex is a remarkably ugly person.

Saw this story on Reddit, made me think of your situation. Poor guy had to go through five years of bullshit, but it ended up being worth it. Hope things turn out better for you as well.

drifter said:

Saw this story on Reddit, made me think of your situation. Poor guy had to go through five years of bullshit, but it ended up being worth it. Hope things turn out better for you as well.

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Tough read. A lot reminded me of this shit too. Glad things worked out for him. I’m hopeful. I don’t need full custody like he did. My ex isn’t a total parenting fuckup. She just doesn’t think I have any right to be part of H's life because she lost control of me.

Shawn said:

Tough read. A lot reminded me of this shit too. Glad things worked out for him. I’m hopeful. I don’t need full custody like he did. My ex isn’t a total parenting fuckup. She just doesn’t think I have any right to be part of Hailey’s life because she lost control of me.

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I would be very afraid of what she's filling Hailey's head with. Even if she isn't physically abusive, people like her don't stop gaslighting and emotionally manipulating just because they're a child, usually they do it more.

Ravenpoe said:

I would be very afraid of what she's filling Hailey's head with. Even if she isn't physically abusive, people like her don't stop gaslighting and emotionally manipulating just because they're a child, usually they do it more.

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That is the part that’s the most frightening. We Will be arguing for full custody due to that reason. Unfortunately, alienation like that is hard to prove.

Monday morning is the day. Going to find out if the justice system is worth a damn.
There is absolutely nothing that should be stopping me from having at least my visitation reinstated. But I'm still very worried.
Especially since, even if my visitation is reinstated, what do we do if the alienation used on H has already done irreparable damage? 3 months is a long time.

I hope justice prevails and that you get a chance to rebuild your relationship.

Some suggestions:
-Don't badmouth your ex. Not to the court, not to Hailey. Let her actions speak for themselves.
-Speak only facts, don't assign anything. "Her actions have made it difficult to have a meaningful relationship with my daughter," not "She keeps trying to keep me from seeing Hailey." Objectivity is key.

Generally, just be civil.

--Patrick

The basics of today: it was a win. But it's a very very expensive win.

Back in June the Judge ordered monitored visitations every week and the two phone calls a week. As mentioned I haven't been receiving those because H either exploits a loophole about the call pertaining to "she can disengage the call whenever she wants" or claims she's too scared to see me.
Well we are continuing that until November but with some additions. The next two phone calls will be zoom instead of facetime, and H's council will be present on the call. She will encourage us to talk.
We are also adding conjoint therapy. Once a week if possible.
The problem about all this is it comes down to me paying for all of it. Even the minor's council fees I'm paying 70%. I've already taken out all of the loans I can, including from my 401k.
I don't know if I filled out my income report properly but I cannot feasibly afford this. In like a month I'm only going to be able to afford to see my daughter for a single Saturday a month for 3 hours. Which is only one hour better than what S was "gifting" me back in 2019.

This is almost sounding like SLAPP territory.

--Patrick

The most satisfying part of today was that S was called out on a lot. Mostly by the minor's council but at least one time in particular by the Judge. S was never directly accused of alienation, but it was certainly implied that could happen if H didn't start answering the calls and going to the visits. The Judge even told her that if Hailey continues to refuse spending time with me that the Judge would have to force a change of custody.

S made a pretty crazy claim today, stating that she has massive PTSD from me because apparently on a nightly basis, after our separation, I was breaking into the house to beat and rape her. It was so bad according to her, that is why J moved into the house: to stop me from doing that. And she was so grateful for him doing that, that she "gifted" him a baby via invitro. She said that in front of H lawyer, my lawyer, and myself.

Tonight was the first phone call I had with H. It was the first time she and I have talked in 3 months. The minor's council was on the phone with us and managed to get a little bit more interaction out of H than I was capable of. With her lead I was able to get a few "how are things?" questions answered by H. H was trying to end the call fairly early however. She kept saying "I don't feel comfortable. Can I leave now?" a few times. The council was able to stall her a bit for me. It was on the awkward side but it was so wonderful to hear from H again.

PatrThom said:

This is almost sounding like SLAPP territory.

--Patrick

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I do feel like seeking damages is the only way to recover.

First visit with H was last night. I'm still required to do the monitored visits so I paid for a two hour block. We met at a restaurant that she likes.
H avoided eye contact with me. Occasionally she had a nervous smile. I noticed her fidgeting with the napkins and chopsticks so I provided her a coloring book and markers which let her focus the energy into something creative. I asked a lot of questions about school, soccer, her hobbies. I only received quick answers between 1-3 words each and at a voice level so quiet I had to ask for her to repeat a lot. I pulled out our riddle book, which she absolutely enjoyed doing with me four months ago. If I asked her a riddle she knew the answer to she'd quickly say it without emotion. If she didn't know it she'd just say "I don't know" without even thinking about it or ask for hints like she would used to.
About 30 minutes in she asked to go to the bathroom. The monitor left with her. About five minutes later they came back and the monitor said that H really wanted to go home and asked if she had my permission. I said "ok" and let them head out. Right before they left I told H that I loved her and that I was really really trying to fix our relationship. She nodded and left.

I feel like I'm at a huge disadvantage with H. Regardless of any progress I make I still have to contend with S souring my relationship on the other end. I don't even feel I can properly defend myself against claims of her mother that H repeats because I'm not allowed to say her mother is just lying to her. Even the monitored visits makes me feel confined, and I'm sure it's not making H any more comfortable either. I don't know what's ok for me to say. I feel like I just need to dance around our actual problems as if we can move on without them being addressed properly. And then how would address them like I'm not just dismissing her concerns? I'm in no way perfect but the list of things H "remembers" from back when she was three-four years old are pretty exaggeratingly detailed for distant memories.

I'm hopeful the therapy, when it starts, will be better. It might take a few weeks for that to happen though, as her therapist wants to ease her into those sessions first. I don't know what they will entail but I hope H and I can at least talk about how we can move forward.

Meanwhile, I'm quickly leaching through the loans I've taken because someone made the determination that I should have to pay to see and fix things with my daughter.

Everything between my last post here, and Friday, has been a hot mess of anxiety. We tried another monitored visit the following week and H just ignored me for 30 minutes and then asked to leave. Phone calls weren't much better. After being told by the judge last time that H actually needed to stay on the phone with me for a period of time the script changed: Now H will not talk to me for exactly 5 minutes before saying "I'm feeling awkward in this conversation" and hang up.

Friday though... Friday was something joyful and validating.

In custody court my daughter's council reported that her investigation has lead her to believe that there is no credible reason why H has turned a complete 180 in her relationship with me since May, outside of her mother's influence.
She stated that H uses adult words to describe why she hates me, such as calling me "emotionally abusive" but can't correctly define emotional abuse. She says she recalls vivid memories of times when I was physically abusive to her and her mother many years ago, but can't recall any specific details such as where I hurt them or even what time of day it was. She thinks that H is motivated by the desire of making her mom happy.

S responded by basically calling the minor's council a liar, stating that she misquoted H, H's therapist, and herself. Things went downhill from there for S.

My lawyer had an opportunity to speak finally, and he was locked and loaded. He turned six years of a co-parenting nightmare into a three minute speech that kept our Judge hooked on every word. The icing on the cake, was pointing out that my ex had submitted screen shots of my texts to J and E as evidence back in May. The screenshots showed that their contact names for me were "Fucktard" and "Don't Speak to Me Without My Wife ". And these are the same phones they hand to H to take my calls. The Judge checked this evidence and got super livid with S, roasting her for a few minutes. The Judge even used the term "Parental Alienation" which is not something you hear in court often. Even my lawyer said later that he never wants to use that term first in court, as it carries a very heavy claim of child abuse with it. So if you use it, you best have the evidence. The Judge absolutely told S that this sounded a lot like parental alienation.

My lawyer argued for full custody, but in the end the Judge went with the minor's council's recommendation. We will maintain monitored visits, but only to ensure H goes on the visits. The Judge cleared me of any wrong doing and made it clear that she agreed with the lawyer that H may not go on the visits initially without a monitor to encourage her. My ex and I will be splitting that cost. S is also going to be splitting the therapy costs with me, and is ordered to see our therapist separately.

If H's relationship with me does not improve, or there is any more evidence that S is sabotaging that relationship, the minor's council will back our request for a custody change.

Ya love to see it and ya hate that it's necessary. Holy hell, dude!

I feel so bad for H in all of this. She's going to need so much therapy to recover from S's manipulation.

ThatNickGuy said:

I feel so bad for H in all of this. She's going to need so much therapy to recover from S's manipulation.

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She will be receiving the therapy. And no matter what happens she knows I am always here for her and knows that I don’t hold her accountable for any of this.