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@Bubble181 posted this in the Funny Pictures thread and it's started a small discussion, that I think would be interesting to continue but in a more appropriate forum.



Is that the primary teaching of each religion, or has this been cherry-picked to show one thing all religions have in common, as opposed to the true primary values of these faiths?

I don't know if it's really the PRIMARY teaching of every religion, even any religion, but obviously it's in there somewhere because it's useful for your rabble to not be in constant civil turmoil. I mean, how are you ever going to get your vainglorious eternal monuments to your greatness built if your peons are constantly robbing and killing each other? But there's amendments, addenda, etc in at least some of them that modify the Golden Rule to the tune of "except those guys over there, FUCK those guys."

Chad Sexington said:

Is that the primary teaching of each religion, or has this been cherry-picked to show one thing all religions have in common, as opposed to the true primary values of these faiths?

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I think the primary lesson that people have taken from religion as that you can cherry-pick anything to make it conform to and justify your already held opinions.

GasBandit said:

"except those guys over there, FUCK those guys."

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What Gassy said. And what I said in that other thread.


This thread is not as nice as my bunk. But at least I have beer at hand.

Gruebeard said:

What Gassy said. And what I said in that other thread.


This thread is not as nice as my bunk. But at least I have beer at hand.

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Stuff you do in your bunk is for a different kind of Chad Sexington thread

Chad Sexington said:

Stuff you do in your bunk is for a different kind of Chad Sexington thread

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Are you sure? I mean, this thread is about doing unto others.

Gruebeard said:

Are you sure? I mean, this thread is about doing unto others.

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And unto yourself...

This is my reponse from the other thread. I moved it here, since it seemed more appropriate.

tegid said:

Isn't it? It's the one I was taught: the new commandment to replace the ten commandments. If you want, it's the primary teaching regarding behaviour, because obviously there are many teachings about God, how the world works, etc.

I'd sooner challenge the one from buddhism: isn't buddhism more about not desiring things etc?

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Well, actually, Jesus taught to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." The first four of the Ten Commandments address the former, and the last six address the latter. But he also taught that we as sinful humans are completely, utterly, hopelessly incapable of doing so enough to meet God's standard, which is why he had to live a sinless life and die a sinner's death to build that bridge. That's the main difference between Christianity and all other world religions - they mostly say "don't be an asshole and you might get to heaven/achieve nirvana/change the world", where Christianity says "you're already an asshole and there's nothing you can do about it so I'm going to do it for you."

Of course, that's a gross oversimplification, but I have a feeling I'm shouting into the wind here anyway, so oh well. Take it to PMs if anyone wants to quibble more.

Zero Esc said:

I detect a joke-killer!

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Yes, I know, I'm a buzzkill, but I get tired of people mischaracterizing Christianity into something it isn't, then condemning Christians for not living up to their incorrect understanding of it. In this regard, I can empathize with our Muslim brothers.

One of the things that I did not like about the Incarnations of Immortality series was the insinuation that a child born of sin automatically starts at 50/50 and since that established universe's merit system only recognizes demerits, the most these children can ever aspire to is Purgatory, and then only if they somehow maintain a 100% virtuous life from day one.

I can't remember the Sci-Fi story, but there was one where the world only had two rules:
1) You may not annoy others.
2) It is also a crime to be too easily annoyed.

--Patrick

papachronos said:

"you're already an asshole and there's nothing you can do about it so I'm going to do it for you."

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I'd say about half of all Christians would disagree there - that's a very, very protestant look at things. Catholics believe all sins can be forgiven, as long as you truly repent. Live a life of doing good, repent your sins and be absolved though the Lord, go to Heaven. Again, over simplification, of course. "You're already an asshole and doomed unless you follow us" isn't unique to Calvinism, anyway - a variation there-of appears in quite a few other religions (Islam among them).

Bubble181 said:

Catholics believe all sins can be forgiven, as long as you truly repent. Live a life of doing good, repent your sins and be absolved though the Lord, go to Heaven.

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This is the cathechism I was taugh. Also, in religion class I was taught what papachronos says as one of the main diverging points of protestantism and catholicism (I always thought that it made a lot of sense 'theologically', though). In any case, I am not mischaracterizing christianism. Oversimplifying, maybe, but I don't see how what I was taught by nuns can be considered not christian

Also, if you replace 'teaching' with 'value', the original picture becomes much more accurate, in my opinion, at least regarding the 'religions of the book'.

PatrThom said:

One of the things that I did not like about the Incarnations of Immortality series was the insinuation that a child born of sin automatically starts at 50/50 and since that established universe's merit system only recognizes demerits, the most these children can ever aspire to is Purgatory, and then only if they somehow maintain a 100% virtuous life from day one.

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This is true, but it's also implied in "On a Pale Horse" that the current Thanatos has final say on who even gets that far anyway, as he simply refuses to reap anyone who legitimately doesn't deserve their fate until ether Heaven or Hell relents. The Incarnations all have checks over one another (usually by making someone else's job harder) and this is basically his way of protesting when one of them doesn't do their job right.

That's not even getting into how even the current Satan thinks the system is bullshit and that he shouldn't have to deal with guys who stole food so their family would starve and the like. He'd change it for the better if he could.

Bubble181 said:

I'd say about half of all Christians would disagree there - that's a very, very protestant look at things. Catholics believe all sins can be forgiven, as long as you truly repent. Live a life of doing good, repent your sins and be absolved though the Lord, go to Heaven. Again, over simplification, of course. "You're already an asshole and doomed unless you follow us" isn't unique to Calvinism, anyway - a variation there-of appears in quite a few other religions (Islam among them).

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This is also the fundamental difference between Protestants and Catholics: Protestants view good works by Catholics as trying to "buy your way into heaven", where as Catholics view it not only as requirement to get into heaven but something you should be doing for your fellow man anyway. The other big difference is that the Protestants view the bible as the end-all,be-all of dogma while the Catholics view a lot of there ritualistic stuff (ESPECIALLY the worshiping of Saints) as required too.

AshburnerX said:

This is true, but it's also implied in "On a Pale Horse" that the current Thanatos has final say on who even gets that far anyway, as he simply refuses to reap anyone who legitimately doesn't deserve their fate until ether Heaven or Hell relents. The Incarnations all have checks over one another (usually by making someone else's job harder) and this is basically his way of protesting when one of them doesn't do their job right.
That's not even getting into how even the current Satan thinks the system is bullshit and that he shouldn't have to deal with guys who stole food so their family would starve and the like. He'd change it for the better if he could.

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Thanatos' job is to show up and reap the souls of anyone who is close enough to the 50/50 mark that they require further examination. Otherwise it is mostly automatic.
And my commentary was not on the characters' views of that established universe, but on the rules themselves (which were not established by the characters, they are just acting within them).

--Patrick

Bubble181 said:

I'd say about half of all Christians would disagree there - that's a very, very protestant look at things. Catholics believe all sins can be forgiven, as long as you truly repent. Live a life of doing good, repent your sins and be absolved though the Lord, go to Heaven. Again, over simplification, of course. "You're already an asshole and doomed unless you follow us" isn't unique to Calvinism, anyway - a variation there-of appears in quite a few other religions (Islam among them).

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You've made a fair point that I did not consider Catholicism when making my previous statement, so my apologies there. However, "all sins can be forgive, as long as you truly repent" is not strictly Catholic - that is one of the fundamental underpinnings of all variants of Christianity, be it Protestant, RCC, or Orthodox. Regarding your last point, there are many, many different Protestant denominations, only a very few of which are Calvinist in nature (the main ones being Presbyterian, Reformed Christian, and Reformed Baptist). And, as far as I have experienced, none of them say "you're doomed unless you follow us." A closer (but still inaccurate) way of saying it is "you're doomed unless you follow Jesus", which may seem like nitpicking, but makes all the difference in the world.

tegid said:

In any case, I am not mischaracterizing christianism

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Again, my sincere apologies. I did not mean to imply that any you, or anyone here, was deliberately mischaracterizing Christianity with any particular end in mind. However, I have had many conversations of this nature where I am prejudged as a Christian based upon an incomplete or incorrect understanding, so the things I say are summarily dismissed.

AshburnerX said:

This is also the fundamental difference between Protestants and Catholics: Protestants view good works by Catholics as trying to "buy your way into heaven", where as Catholics view it not only as requirement to get into heaven but something you should be doing for your fellow man anyway. The other big difference is that the Protestants view the bible as the end-all, be-all of dogma while the Catholics view a lot of there ritualistic stuff (ESPECIALLY the worshiping of Saints) as required too.

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#notallprotestants? Some denominations may believe that about our Catholic brothers, but most that I'm aware of don't have quite such a confrontational stance on it. I can't speak for any theology other than what I have studied (Presbyterian Church in America), but we see good works as a necessary part of the Christian faith. Reformed theology has two specific concepts regarding this, called justification and sanctification. Justification is what happens when you believe in the saving work of Jesus on the cross - your sins are imparted to him, his righteousness is imparted to you, and you can stand before God without fear. Sanctification is the process that happens after justification - the process by which the Holy Spirit works in your life to change your focus, desires, and actions. Sanctification is the process by which God builds his kingdom here on Earth. Does it mean that we are sinless, and that we know better than everyone else? Hell, no - if anything, as I've lived my life as a Christian, I've become more and more aware of just how little I know, and how broken I am in every way that I interact with everyone.

In my opinion, too many denominations (and pastors, preachers, leaders, what have you) focus way too much on justification, which is what leads to the "I've got my salvation, I know what the Bible says, and everyone else can piss off" kind of Christian (think Kim Davis, at least as she is portrayed by those both for and against her). Jesus was all about building his kingdom on Earth - taking care of, as Jesus said, "the least of these". It's a shame that so many Christians aren't likewise.

As far as Protestants regarding the Bible to be infallible, that is true. I believe scripture to be the complete and infallible word of God. However, I know myself, and therefore my interpretation of scripture, to be very much fallible. I can just hold to the hope that as I pray, study the Bible, and live a life of faith, my understanding of God's word will grow more complete.

PatrThom said:

Thanatos' job is to show up and reap the souls of anyone who is close enough to the 50/50 mark that they require further examination. Otherwise it is mostly automatic.
And my commentary was not on the characters' views of that established universe, but on the rules themselves (which were not established by the characters, they are just acting within them).

--Patrick

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Technically, I think the rules were established by the first God and Satan (or whatever their incarnations were at the time, as they change as religions change). The current Satan usurped the job from the last, which is why he's interested in reforms, but the current God hasn't been paying attention to anything and thus they can't change the system.

AshburnerX said:

The current Satan usurped the job from the last

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That's the mechanism (treachery) by which the new Satan is chosen, just as Death is replaced by killing Death, etc.
I don't think it's ever mentioned how Creation was created, just that they all live within it.

--Patrick

AshburnerX said:

The current Satan usurped the job from the last,

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And his little sister is so fucking hot.

I'll say that your summary seems pretty good @papachronos but I think it's worth noting that a lot of denominations put emphasis on John 14:6 which is:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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This is what IMO leads to a lot of "if you're not Christian you're going to Hell, no exceptions." Now a number of christian denominations have spoken out specifically against that type of stance, but it's still very much there.

So there's that. But @Dirona is the actual cleric in the family, and so I think she has a place to chime in here as well. I'm just the Minister's Husband. (A very interesting position I assure you)

"For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." - The verse after the verse that everyone throws around.

And of course, a pair I've been throwing around lately:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." - Micah 6:8

Where is @Espy in all this. Haven't seen him around in a long time.

jwhouk said:

"For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." - The verse after the verse that everyone throws around.

And of course, a pair I've been throwing around lately:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." - Micah 6:8

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Hey, I agree, but just that the one I posted poses a problem, in that it can mean the rest of them are in light of the first. So to walk humbly with your God could mean you're ONLY doing that if you follow Jesus, and fuck you if you're not. And you're only saved IF you follow Jesus, etc, etc, etc. I'm being deliberately extreme here.

Which textually... well it's there. You can say it has less impact because of many other things, and many other warm and fuzzy feelings put forth, but it's still there, and well, the big man himself said it. Many others are said by others, and hence people put it as less impactful, because, well, they do. I need @Dirona to "spin" the Bible much more skillfully.

You can indeed say that you don't like that something's black-and-white, and you prefer gray. But, there's this Canadian philosopher that once wrote, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

There's that comic of that dog sitting in the middle of a burning house, saying "I'm okay with my situation." That still doesn't mean the house isn't burning down.