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Do you believe in ghosts?

Sep 22, 2010#1

Chazwozel

So of all things, I've gotten into a facebook argument over one of my friend's posts.

short of it: I'm going back and forth with this one person about the existence of ghosts. She's convinced of their existence. So much so that to her "saying that ghosts don't exist is like saying cat food doesn't exist". I tell her that's crap. You can empirically measure the existence of something like cat food. There is no proof ghosts exist.

Now I'm a 100% skeptic of the paranormal, however, I still really enjoy reading about it.

I personally think it's a little weird when a person is so sure of the paranormal that running into a ghost in a haunted area is their top priority. My top priority would be making sure I don't get shanked by a random hobo wandering around, say, an abandoned graveyard.

I ask you halforums: do you believe in ghosts?

Sep 22, 2010#2

MindDetective

Nope. Like you, I find it interesting to read about. Are ghosts possible? We can't rule them out. That's the problem. Ghost sightings are unfalsifiable and unrepeatable.

Sep 22, 2010#3

makare

I don't have a strong feeling either way. Im not scared of them or anything but I don't actively doubt they exist.

Sep 22, 2010#4

Null

I'm open-minded about the possibility, and I'm entertained by shows like Ghost Hunters. I believe there are things that happen that cannot be adequately explained through normal methods, currently. That being said, I think most shows about the supernatural are full of crap. On the other hand, I'm much more apt to believe in cryptids - as yet undiscovered or unclassified wildlife. There is a case to be made for an unidentified north american primate that happens to resemble the legendary bigfoot and skunk ape. The 'mothman' of West Virginia, though, is almost certainly a misidentified gray owl, in the same way that the Jersey Devil is almost assuredly a great horned owl. The Caribbean kraken analogue, the Lusca, may very well be a colossal octopoid inhabiting the system of odd Blue Holes in the Bahamas. It's an awfully big, strange world out there.

Sep 22, 2010#5

Cajungal

I kind of wish they did sometimes, but when I really think about it, I don't believe in them.

Sep 22, 2010#6

V.Bond

No.

People die and that's it. They are gone.

Forever.

Sep 22, 2010#7

Tress

I enjoy ghost stories, but I hate shows like Ghost Hunters. It's just some idiots freaking themselves out and playing mind games before nothing happens for the show's "climax." I would say that I don't believe in ghosts but I acknowledge that I can't prove they don't exist.

Sep 22, 2010#8

General Specific

Due to a personal experience involving my uncle's death, I do believe ghosts exist. However, not the traditional view of ghosts and hauntings.

Sep 22, 2010#9

Element 117

They are real. They will eat you.

Sep 22, 2010#10

ThatGrinningIdiot!

General Specific said:
Due to a personal experience involving my uncle's death, I do believe ghosts exist. However, not the traditional view of ghosts and hauntings.

Same here, I've had quite a few strange experiences myself.

Sep 22, 2010#11

sixpackshaker

No, but our family has a phantom limb story that is fucking creepy.

Sep 22, 2010#12

LittleSin

Believer here. I don't think that can hurt you though.

Sep 22, 2010#13

Ravenpoe

I don't believe in ghosts. But my immediate family sure does. My mom and aunt both go on "paranormal investigations" with a woman whose business card claims her to be a "certified psychic."

Who the hell certifies psychics?

They also have a website and quote "radio show" (read: audio blog)
Cross City
Cross City Paranormal Host Tena Marie | Internet Radio | Blog Talk Radio

Sep 22, 2010#14

Calleja

Ghosts are supposed to be the "life energy" you leave behind, or an "impression" you leave, right?

The problem with that is that's it's incredibly self-centered to believe your energy would stay in one planet, let alone one confined space. The individual atoms in your body literally come from different stars from all around the universe. Earth is not a separate entity. Everything is connected. And "everything" means EVERYTHING not just all that's on this puny little blue rock. The point I'm trying to make is... even if your energy, soul, whatever you want to call it... DID stay behind after your body rots, it would go back to where it came from.. the universe. It would not stay behind to haunt your shed.

I've had "emotion" thrown into the argument... but I call bull crap on that. Our consciousness, who "we" are, is a result of electrical sparks in our neurons, emotions are created by hormones and chemical reactions and.. physical things. Even if we were to say the "life energy" thing is plausible (which I don't really argue on cause energy can certainly not be destroyed, just transformed), whatever was left behind would not be "you".. that would be gone with the rotting of your brain and the loss of that particular brain wiring. So why would your energy stay here when it's connected to every atom in existence?

Sep 22, 2010#15

Cajungal

I've only had one experience in my life that made me REALLY consider things like ghosts. I can't explain it, and I can't convince anyone of what I saw. But I cling to it for some reason. It's one of my most prominent memories.

I was 5 or 6, and I was really scared of the dark at that age. I never had night terrors or any horrible nightmares; I would just scare myself so much that I literally could not close my eyes. I was too scared. Well one night, I crawled into bed with mom and dad (without them knowing; they would have sent me back). I still couldn't sleep, but with them I was never scared. So I just sat up and looked around the room. And I swear, when I looked in their bathroom, I saw a the shadow of a pacing man. He just moved back and forth, then he stopped and looked at me, and then he started pacing again. Surprisingly, I didn't feel scared. I was always finding scary things in the shadows to keep me awake, but there were no windows in that room to make the shadows move. And they were never as vivid as that. I guess I wish I believed in them so that story wouldn't make me feel so crazy. As strong as my imagination is, I can distinguish between what's in my mind and what I feel I could reach out and touch.

Damnit, no one believes me except sometimes Jake, and even when he concedes I think he just doesn't want to upset me.

Sep 22, 2010#16

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Cajungal said:
I've only had one experience in my life that made me REALLY consider things like ghosts. I can't explain it, and I can't convince anyone of what I saw. But I cling to it for some reason. It's one of my most prominent memories.

I was 5 or 6, and I was really scared of the dark at that age. I never had night terrors or any horrible nightmares; I would just scare myself so much that I literally could not close my eyes. I was too scared. Well one night, I crawled into bed with mom and dad (without them knowing; they would have sent me back). I still couldn't sleep, but with them I was never scared. So I just sat up and looked around the room. And I swear, when I looked in their bathroom, I saw a the shadow of a pacing man. He just moved back and forth, then he stopped and looked at me, and then he started pacing again. Surprisingly, I didn't feel scared. I was always finding scary things in the shadows to keep me awake, but there were no windows in that room to make the shadows move. And they were never as vivid as that. I guess I wish I believed in them so that story wouldn't make me feel so crazy. As strong as my imagination is, I can distinguish between what's in my mind and what I feel I could reach out and touch.

Damnit, no one believes me except sometimes Jake, and even when he concedes I think he just doesn't want to upset me.

Seriously, I just got chills from that CG.

Sep 22, 2010#17

Matt²

I personally believe in what we call ghosts, but as something different (which I'm not willing to discuss in detail right now) ... but that said, if you go looking for "ghosts" wholeheartedly, you will probably find them, whether real or imagined.

---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

makare said:
I don't have a strong feeling either way. I'm not scared of them or anything but I don't actively doubt they don't exist.

Sorry, I couldn't resist! I totally heard Pinocchio from Shrek saying this as I read it (modified slightly)

Sep 22, 2010#18

Cajungal

ThatGrinningIdiot!;439621][QUOTE=Cajungal said:
I've only had one experience in my life that made me REALLY consider things like ghosts. I can't explain it, and I can't convince anyone of what I saw. But I cling to it for some reason. It's one of my most prominent memories.

I was 5 or 6, and I was really scared of the dark at that age. I never had night terrors or any horrible nightmares; I would just scare myself so much that I literally could not close my eyes. I was too scared. Well one night, I crawled into bed with mom and dad (without them knowing; they would have sent me back). I still couldn't sleep, but with them I was never scared. So I just sat up and looked around the room. And I swear, when I looked in their bathroom, I saw a the shadow of a pacing man. He just moved back and forth, then he stopped and looked at me, and then he started pacing again. Surprisingly, I didn't feel scared. I was always finding scary things in the shadows to keep me awake, but there were no windows in that room to make the shadows move. And they were never as vivid as that. I guess I wish I believed in them so that story wouldn't make me feel so crazy. As strong as my imagination is, I can distinguish between what's in my mind and what I feel I could reach out and touch.

Damnit, no one believes me except sometimes Jake, and even when he concedes I think he just doesn't want to upset me.

Seriously, I just got chills from that CG.[/QUOTE]

Well, I wouldn't have typed it if I didn't 100% believe that it was something I really saw. I've had "weird" things happen to me that I figure were all in my head. For example, I hold very dear a dream I had about my godmother after she died--standing in a clean white dress in the middle of a garden (her favorite place) telling me "don't worry," but I know that it was my grief and my strong wish to see her again that caused it. That doesn't make it less precious, just because it's something that can be explained. But this other thing is on a completely different level.

Sep 22, 2010#19

ThatGrinningIdiot!

You don't understand, I've seen that same "shadow" man. I would've dismissed that experience, but my brother and my cousin also saw it the night I did.

Sep 22, 2010#20

Cajungal

Now I can't get the villian from The Princess and the Frog out of my head.

Where are you from, GI?

Sep 22, 2010#21

makare

That reminds me of Gerald's Game

that is the only book to ever give me nightmares. if I have nightmares tonight I am going to spend 10 minutes tomorrow wishing bad things on all of you!

Sep 22, 2010#22

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Canadaland, Ontario. An island on Lake Huron.

Sep 22, 2010#23

Matt²

I had a dream recently about a ghost in a room guarding a chest. It couldn't be seen but it's evil presence could be clearly felt just going in the room. I took authority over it since it was my house and began demanding it leave and not return. At that moment I woke UP.. and clearly heard an audible voice say in my right ear (not both!) a loud " NO." ... THAT was creepy!!

Sep 22, 2010#24

Cajungal

Huh. Just curious.

Ya know, at my sister's bachelorette party, we were all at this cabin way out in the middle of nowhere, and I thought I saw him again... but I was really drunk, and it turned out to be shadows moving in a terrible storm. It looked like a man with a knife raised high above his head. I screamed at the top of my lungs and scared everyone. Shoulda known. My shadow guy seemed perfectly nice. It was a very horror movie-esque cabin, though... lots of TGI Fridays-looking junk on the patio, plenty of places to hide, and overlooking this nasty old lake. WoooOOOoooooooo....

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 PM ----------

AUGH Matt! That's happened to me too! It drives me nuts!

Sep 22, 2010#25

CynicismKills

My brother and two of his friends refuse to go back to this abandoned grain mill back home.

It's a dilapidated old barn with a large silo connected to it. They crawled through the fence and went through a hole in the barn wall to get in. They wandered around and ended up in the silo. One of them started getting chills and was really nervous though he said he couldn't explain why. He looked up and yelped in surprise, and my brother and the other friend looked up. My brother says he saw a long-haired girl hanging from the top of the silo, completely unmoving, until she eventually turned her head to stare directly at the three of them. They freaked and ran back towards the hole in the wall to get out. he says the hole felt as though it was getting smaller and further away as they ran to it. Once they got outside, he said they looked back and could see her hair billowing out one of the windows on the roof.

Sep 22, 2010#26

Adammon

When my grandfather died a couple dies before Princess Di, it threw me into a tailspin. He was the first grandparent to pass away and it was a terrible time in the family. My parents weren't on speaking terms with my grandparents, despite living 10 minutes from each other, and, at the tender age of 17, I was reduced to ferrying messages between two very immature groups of people. It didn't help that my grandfather was suffering from mesothelioma from a lifetime of working with asbestos and his prognosis was not good. When my grandmother had called me to tell me at the local college that my grandfather had just been sent to the hospital, I dutifully passed on the message to my parents and raced out to see him.

I arrived to find just my grandmother there and a very unresponsive grandfather in a hospital bed. She was quite upset, understandably so, and I did my best to console her. She went out for air and I sat down staring at my grandfather who stared blankly back at me, with the eyes of someone who doesn't quite recognize but is at least aware of your presence. In 5 minutes, recognition dawned on his face, and his best effort was put towards just smiling at me, which I couldn't help but returning. This man had practically raised me, was there the day I was born and I had expected that he would be there the day I died.

Time passed. His condition improved and while he wasn't talking, we had unspoken conversations.

Eventually it was time for me to go. I think I had to go back to class and as I stood up and made my way to the door, I heard a grumble from the bed. He had leaned up a bit, looked me dead in the eyes, as clear as a bell and said "Don't forget me."

He slid back down into the bed, I left, walked to my car, and sobbed like a baby. He died 20 minutes later. I wasn't there.

That week I was staying with my parents. Late one night, I'm lying in bed, halfway asleep and I hear a rustle at the end of my bed. I sit up ramrod straight and there was my grandfather standing at the end of the bed, just looking at me. Speechless, astounded, horrified, I grabbed a pillow and covered my face. Quickly uncovered, he was gone.

Now, I believe in a lot of shit. I'm okay with karma, reincarnation, aliens, you name it. Ghosts? Not so much. But this was either my mind playing the worst of tricks on me in a time of great stress (probably), or a fucking ghost.

It's easier and makes me feel better to believe it was a ghost. SO yes, ghosts exist.

Sep 22, 2010#27

phil

Hey now, I was watching a TV show where they check this stuff out, with science and shit, you know? Thermal readings of abandoned buildings in the fall/winter show them to be colder than other places which means ghosts yo!

They were taking pictures and stuff and white orbs would show up every now and again near reflective surfaces when they used flashes.

The people would even see and hear things off camera that the microphones usually couldn't pick up. How can a man hear something that a microphone can't pick up unless it's a ghost! You can't put things that are unprovable one way or another on TV man!

Ergo (note to self find out what ergo really means) ghosts are real!

Sep 22, 2010#28

Ravenpoe

phil said:
Hey now, I was watching a TV show where they check this stuff out, with science and shit, you know? Thermal readings of abandoned buildings in the fall/winter show them to be colder than other places which means ghosts yo!

They were taking pictures and stuff and white orbs would show up every now and again near reflective surfaces when they used flashes.

The people would even see and hear things off camera that the microphones usually couldn't pick up. How can a man hear something that a microphone can't pick up unless it's a ghost! You can't put things that are unprovable one way or another on TV man!

Ergo (note to self find out what ergo really means) ghosts are real!

The "psychic" I mentioned in my previous post once told me that of course demons are real, that's why there are demonologists.

Ergo, demonologists are proof that demons exist! QED

Sep 22, 2010#29

Espy

Nope. I believe in lots of things and I've seen some creepy things but ghosts are not one of them.

Sep 23, 2010#30

Baerdog

I believe that ghosts exist...

...in my Monster Manual.

Sep 23, 2010#31

General Specific

Ravenpoe;439657][QUOTE=phil said:
Hey now, I was watching a TV show where they check this stuff out, with science and shit, you know? Thermal readings of abandoned buildings in the fall/winter show them to be colder than other places which means ghosts yo!

They were taking pictures and stuff and white orbs would show up every now and again near reflective surfaces when they used flashes.

The people would even see and hear things off camera that the microphones usually couldn't pick up. How can a man hear something that a microphone can't pick up unless it's a ghost! You can't put things that are unprovable one way or another on TV man!

Ergo (note to self find out what ergo really means) ghosts are real!

The "psychic" I mentioned in my previous post once told me that of course demons are real, that's why there are demonologists.

Ergo, demonologists are proof that demons exist! QED[/QUOTE]

Was she also a member of the Tautology Club?

Sep 23, 2010#32

Math242

I don't. I'm an atheist all the way. This implies i don't believe in the mere possibility of ghosts coming back from wherever.

You're dead, you're done. that's it.

Sep 23, 2010#33

Philosopher B.

I do not now, nor have I ever, believed in ghosts.

Sep 23, 2010#34

Silver Jelly

I don't, but that doesn't make me less scared when I'm alone at night and the paranoia slowly creeps in.

Sep 23, 2010#35

@Li3n

Chazwozel said:
Now I'm a 100% skeptic of the paranormal, however, I still really enjoy reading about it.

I don't think scepticism works that way...

Sep 23, 2010#36

Silver Jelly

@Li3n;439691][QUOTE=Chazwozel said:
Now I'm a 100% skeptic of the paranormal, however, I still really enjoy reading about it.

I don't think scepticism works that way...[/QUOTE]

I think you are confusing skepticism with analphabetism.

Sep 23, 2010#37

Chazwozel

@Li3n;439691][QUOTE=Chazwozel said:
Now I'm a 100% skeptic of the paranormal, however, I still really enjoy reading about it.

I don't think scepticism works that way...[/QUOTE]

Why not? You don't enjoy reading fiction novels or watching fictional TV shows and movies?

Sep 23, 2010#38

Green_Lantern

Chazwozel;439701][QUOTE=@Li3n;439691][QUOTE=Chazwozel said:
Now I'm a 100% skeptic of the paranormal, however, I still really enjoy reading about it.

I don't think scepticism works that way...[/QUOTE]

Why not? You don't enjoy reading fiction novels or watching fictional TV shows and movies?[/QUOTE]

Scepticism isn't hatred for all things paranormal, scepticism is only not believing in stuff in a whim and/or always considering the possibility that something isn't true.

Sep 23, 2010#39

tegid

Skepticism is also only believing in things that have been sufficiently proven (unlike ghosts). Or, in other words, not believing.

Sep 23, 2010#40

Math242

but not believing in it does not mean you cannot enjoy reading about it

Sep 23, 2010#41

@Li3n

tegid said:
Skepticism is also only believing in things that have been sufficiently proven (unlike ghosts). Or, in other words, not believing.

How do you believe in something that's been proven?!

Sep 23, 2010#42

Silver Jelly

@Li3n;439711][QUOTE=tegid said:
Skepticism is also only believing in things that have been sufficiently proven (unlike ghosts). Or, in other words, not believing.

How do you believe in something that's been proven?![/QUOTE]

I guess he's means believeing in accepting it as truth. Sounds illogical? You think he should have said "knowing"?
Ask our dear friends that don't "believe" in evolution. I never see this example in the discussions about this topic on the internet, but I have had atheists tell me evolution is bullshit and that we are not primates. If you can disbelieve stuff that has been scientifically proven, you can also believe it, can't you?

Sep 23, 2010#43

MindDetective

Nothing is ever scientifically proven. There is evidence that supports a given theory but no such thing as proof.

Sep 23, 2010#44

makare

I always thought skeptics allowed for the possibility of things but were refraining judgment until there was more proof.

Fence sitters, I call em.

Sep 23, 2010#45

MindDetective

No, a true skeptic can hold beliefs (and should) but allow for the possibility that they are wrong and actively seek more information to disprove (rather than confirm) beliefs, both their own and others. Of course, if something cannot be disproved at all (like ghosts), then the default position is likely to be disbelief.

Sep 23, 2010#46

makare

That's pretty much what I said. They refrain from final judgment until there is more proof. Until then they obviously have a belief either way.

Sep 23, 2010#47

MindDetective

Well, my definition can include people who have religious beliefs, as long as they regularly acknowledge (at least to themselves) that their belief may be wrong. I don't see anything noble in having a "final judgment" on things that we can never know for certain. That just seems hard-headed.

Sep 23, 2010#48

Azurephoenix

I've had too many strange experiences to fully write off paranormal activity... so I guess you could say I believe ghosts exist.

Sep 23, 2010#49

Fun Size

I don't believe in ghosts, but like SJ, I will allow myself occasionally to be afraid of them. Mostly this is for fun (you can only watch so many movies/read so many books before you get spooked at night). I love a good ghost story, especially those purported to be true, and will fully allow myself to become emotionally invested enough to freak myself out. In the cold light of day though? Nothing doing.

Sep 23, 2010#50

MindDetective

Amorous Eyes;439737][QUOTE=MindDetective said:
No, a true skeptic can hold beliefs (and should) but allow for the possibility that they are wrong and actively seek more information to disprove (rather than confirm) beliefs, both their own and others. Of course, if something cannot be disproved at all (like ghosts), then the default position is likely to be disbelief.

Sep 23, 2010#51

HCGLNS

Ghosts are no more real than elves, newfies or England.

Sep 23, 2010#52

Bones

science, in which theories are true until disproved by a better theories ^_^

Sep 23, 2010#53

MindDetective

Amorous Eyes;439741][QUOTE=MindDetective;439739][QUOTE=Amorous Eyes;439737][QUOTE=MindDetective said:
No, a true skeptic can hold beliefs (and should) but allow for the possibility that they are wrong and actively seek more information to disprove (rather than confirm) beliefs, both their own and others. Of course, if something cannot be disproved at all (like ghosts), then the default position is likely to be disbelief.

Most skeptics I know have absolute faith in their own beliefs and only try to disprove the beliefs of others.[/QUOTE]

That definition skeptic doesn't sit well with me because it means we have to include flat-earthers and intelligent design believers as skeptics, as well as conspiracy theorists since they all are skeptical of something. I don't think someone can adopt the label of Skeptic unless they put their own beliefs under the microscope as well. Everyone is skeptical of something but a skeptic has to doubt everything.[/QUOTE]

Yet, they call themselves skeptics. Similarly as to how many people call themselves Christian, Muslim, open-minded, democrat, whathaveyou yet they do not hold the same beliefs that come with that label. Can't stop it though.[/QUOTE]

That's very true. I should hope that such people can be debated on the point, though, since they don't have holy writings to support their faith. I'm not dogging on the bible here, it is just not something that be argued about usually, except with scholars. "Because the bible says so" will tend to end a discussion on a given matter.

---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

Also, this thread needs more comics.

Sep 23, 2010#54

Hylian

I don't really believe ghost exist but I do believe that there are things that happen that are beyond our current understanding but just cause we don't understand them does not mean they are one thing or another. that being said since there is no proof one way or another I can't say they don't exist but I can say I have my doubts that they exist.

Sep 23, 2010#55

Green_Lantern

MindDetective said:
Also, this thread needs more comics.

yay SMBC!

Also a SMBC video

-----

Also Chaz, you should show your friend this:

EDIT: Also, Long post with few words.

Sep 23, 2010#56

Null

makare said:
I always thought skeptics allowed for the possibility of things but were refraining judgment until there was more proof.

Fence sitters, I call em.

THat's pretty much what agnostics are, I think.

Sep 23, 2010#57

MindDetective

Null;439820][QUOTE=makare said:
I always thought skeptics allowed for the possibility of things but were refraining judgment until there was more proof.

Fence sitters, I call em.

THat's pretty much what agnostics are, I think.[/QUOTE]

The best definition I ever heard of a true agnostic is one that is unsure what to believe and is actively seeking to do so. I think many proclaimed agnostics are either apathetic or fence-sitters, though.

Sep 23, 2010#58

Dave

I consider myself agnostic. It's not that we're fence sitters as much as reluctant to profess any beliefs that we can't prove. I'm not atheist because I believe that there's a chance for there to be a higher power, I'm just not convinced that ANY Human religion has it right - nor do I think they ever could. This lack of belief in a specific thing does not preclude a complete lack of belief in everything, as an atheist has.

Sep 23, 2010#59

Sara_2814

Even religious figures can be skeptics:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
-- Buddha

Pretty good advice for religion and science.

And "no" on the ghosts, since there isn't any solid evidence to support their existence.

Sep 23, 2010#60

Green_Lantern

Sara_2814 said:
Even religious figures can be skeptics:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
-- Buddha

Click to expand...

Pretty good advice for religion and science.

And "no" on the ghosts, since there isn't any solid evidence to support their existence.

The more I find out about Buddha, the lesser I think about Jesus.

Sep 23, 2010#61

fade

Math242 said:
I don't. I'm an atheist all the way. This implies i don't believe in the mere possibility of ghosts coming back from wherever.

You're dead, you're done. that's it.

Does one necessarily imply the other?

Sep 23, 2010#62

@Li3n

MindDetective said:
Nothing is ever scientifically proven. There is evidence that supports a given theory but no such thing as proof.

Sep 23, 2010#63

fade

A theory explains observations. In the first case, the theory--unprovable but supportable would explain why the bat hit your face without going through.

The second, you've observed that things fall down. You can theorize that it's due to an action-at-a-distance force called gravity, which is due to the amount of matter in an object.

Sep 23, 2010#64

MindDetective

@Li3n;439861][QUOTE=MindDetective said:
Nothing is ever scientifically proven. There is evidence that supports a given theory but no such thing as proof.

I'm pretty sure i can prove that i'm hitting you in the face with a baseball bat while i'm hitting you with it...

Or that there's gravity by throwing you off a cliff...

Or evolution if i can observe life for a few million years...

It's just that some hypothesis' and theories are harder to prove then others.[/QUOTE]

The first one isn't a theory. The second two are, but you cannot prove they are due to gravity or evolution, only that your specific predictions that you derived from them came to pass. Something else could make nearly identical predictions. If other explanations still exist (and they always do) then you've proved nothing.

Sep 23, 2010#65

Calleja

Agnostic here. True agnosticism is not "fence-sitting", it's the belief that whatever you're agnostic about is unknowable, unprovable. The clever among you will have noticed this means you could actually be agnostic and still religious. Which is why I consider myself Agnostic Atheist. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. I don't really belief a deity exists, but I'm not arrogant enough to KNOW for certain. My position is that it's irrelevant. If there's any sort of Prime Mover it is quite beyond our comprehension, ergo meaningless for our every day lives.

I'm quite sure I know just about the same about any sort of deity than the Pope or any other religious leader on this planet, though. When it comes to established religions and deities, yes, I'm 100% atheistic.

Sep 23, 2010#66

@Li3n

MindDetective;439867][QUOTE=@Li3n;439861][QUOTE=MindDetective said:
Nothing is ever scientifically proven. There is evidence that supports a given theory but no such thing as proof.

Sep 23, 2010#67

MindDetective

@Li3n;439887][QUOTE=MindDetective;439867][QUOTE=@Li3n;439861][QUOTE=MindDetective said:
Nothing is ever scientifically proven. There is evidence that supports a given theory but no such thing as proof.

And i was talking about the simpler notion of proving that there is a force pulling you towards the earth (gravity) or that animals turn into other species through tiny changes over time as opposed to the more complex notions of what the exact mechanisms are. Though i guess you could say those are now facts and not theory... still, you can scientifically prove stuff, even if you might not call it theory then (as apparently the greeks wouldn't have: Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)[/QUOTE]

Making an observation is not proving anything. When you say something is proven, there has to be a thing that you are referring to that is proven. Those things are theories. In your link to the wikipedia article on Theory, "proven" appears twice and in both cases it is in reference to things being proven false. We can demonstrate a theory is unworkable (false) or we can maintain that a theory still works with our observations, however a given theory should never be said to be true.

Ultimately, there is a difference between pragmatism and proof. Einstein showed that Newton's theory of gravity was not entirely correct but we still use it since it is still pragmatic to discuss gravity in Newtonian terms. Einstein's theory of gravity will likely be falsified as well at some point, since it has inconsistencies with quantum mechanics. Something will come along that works better than general relativity, though perhaps general relativity will still have its uses as well, even it is has been shown to be false.

Sep 23, 2010#68

Calleja

holy crap ame, is that from the bible?? Please tell me it's from the bible so I can memorize the numbers and throw them out whenever someone uses the bible as an excuse for being irrational.

Sep 23, 2010#69

Azurephoenix

I think a lot of hard core religious types have probably forgotten that passage...

Sep 23, 2010#70

makare

The bible has changed form a lot over the years. I wouldn't get too excited Calleja.

Sep 23, 2010#71

Chazwozel

[17:63] thou shall not let...moochers into thine hut.

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

Amorous Eyes;439922][QUOTE=Sara_2814 said:
Even religious figures can be skeptics:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
-- Buddha

Click to expand...

Pretty good advice for religion and science.

Or God can even ask you to be skeptical in scripture:

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

[/QUOTE]

And yet Muslims still do things because "God says so"

Sep 23, 2010#72

makare

Amorous Eyes;439928][QUOTE=Calleja said:
holy crap ame, is that from the bible?? Please tell me it's from the bible so I can memorize the numbers and throw them out whenever someone uses the bible as an excuse for being irrational.

Sorry to disappoint but it's from the Quran.[/QUOTE]

Even if it had been from the bible the way people pick and choose what to follow it wouldn't have mattered.

Sep 23, 2010#73

Chazwozel

makare;439932][QUOTE=Amorous Eyes;439928][QUOTE=Calleja said:
holy crap ame, is that from the bible?? Please tell me it's from the bible so I can memorize the numbers and throw them out whenever someone uses the bible as an excuse for being irrational.

Sorry to disappoint but it's from the Quran.[/QUOTE]

Even if it had been from the bible the way people pick and choose what to follow it wouldn't have mattered.[/QUOTE]

Word. You can do pretty much anything with bible and quran versus. People can twist any scripture into whatever their little heart desires.

Sep 23, 2010#74

makare

the following is makare's opinion, which what she writes usually is but just to be doubly clear-

I think the Bible is a wonderful book. It is excellent for study and introspection. It is also helpful to use when trying to figure out a path of action. However, so many people seem to use the Bible instead of as a tool to assist understanding but as a replacement for thinking at all! That really bothers me. The Bible is full of stories that can help you to think about certain things it certainly shouldn't be used as a means to not think at all.

Sep 23, 2010#75

Fun Size

Wait...are you guys saying that God might not hate ***s?

Sep 23, 2010#76

makare

god hates the hell out of asterisks

Sep 23, 2010#77

Element 117

Fun Size said:
Wait...are you guys saying that God might not hate bags?

fixed

Sep 23, 2010#78

Element 117

Amorous Eyes;439944][QUOTE=PCT;439942][QUOTE=Fun Size said:
Wait...are you guys saying that God might not hate bags?

fixed[/QUOTE]

bag meaning crone ?[/QUOTE]

is that where they put groceries in your country? Your foood must taste like geriatric crap.

Sep 23, 2010#79

Fun Size

Yeah, that joke was way funnier without the asterisks.

DAMN YOU CENSORSHIP!

Sep 23, 2010#80

KCWM

Let's see...(pulled from another forum I post on that had a thread about aliens, ghosts, demons)

I can't find my post in an old thread. For the record, I have never had an illegal drug, I have never hallucinated, I was wide awake either well before or shortly after the experiences started, and I try to come up with mundane explanations for everything I experience before accepting it as something I simply can not explain.

I believe in aliens. I've not seen one personally, but I have seen a UFO, at least in the actual sense of the word. I was driving by downtown Fort Worth late at night and and a blue light in the sky traveling from north to south caught my attention. It was traveling at the speed of a normal aircraft. Suddenly, it reversed course at a 45 degree angle at an incredibly rate of speed...faster than anything that I've personally seen in person or on TV. I quickly lost sight of it.

As a kid, I saw this strange + shaped light moving through the sky high above my house. I have no idea what it was. Now, I did grow up around Carswell Air Force Base, so it could have easily been some weird, experimental aircraft.

I also believe in ghosts because of events that have taken place at two locations I lived. The first started shortly after my grandfather died back in '96. He had a particular blanket that he liked to sleep with. When I went to grab a blanket out of the hall closet, his was on top and so I grabbed it. For some reason, I looked over and I saw him at the back of the kitchen, walking from a bar stool that he used to sit at, shuffling the way he did, half stooped over, and with the white t-shirt and shorts he often wore, and with slicked back black hair (he had little gray hair for a man in his late 60s). He was looking down and walked from the bar over to the table and disappeared. My mother asked me if I was OK because I'd gone pale and quiet.

Years later, I was up late at night, around 1a or 2a. Now, I was a night owl and regularly stayed up until 4a or 5a in the morning, so I was wide awake. My grandmother was coughing horribly...to the point that I'd decided I was going to take her to ER. She'd been sick for a few days and her cough had gotten progressively worse. I got dressed and opened to the door to go wake her up. As soon as I did, I saw a figure walk past me and into her room. I have no idea why, but I didn't panic, didn't yell out, just watched. The figure stood over her bed and she stopped coughing. The figure disappeared and she didn't cough the rest of the night. She was sick for a while after that, but her cough got significantly better after that night.

One day, I came home early for work on a day my grandmother was supposed to go to a dr's appointment. I pulled into the driveway and saw someone standing in the window. I was thinking it was my aunt, who was going to drive my grandmother. Her car was in the driveway so I assumed they were still home. I opened the garage and my grandmother's car was gone. I walked into the house and as soon as I stepped foot in the living room, I went cold, like a breeze blew past me, and it felt like someone was standing in the room...like the space I was in didn't feel like my own. I said outloud "this isn't fun anymore". After a moment the feeling went away.

In a music related note, I had an old strat leaning against the TV stand in my room and accidentally hit it with the back of my foot. It started to fall before I had a chance to turn around and catch it. I watched, dumbfounded, as the guitar stopped short before hitting a brick I had in my room...kind of suspended in mid air. It moved over slightly and then fell to the ground. I have NO explanation for that one.

A lot of other random stuff happened,

- from the TV changing channels (for example...from 8 to 5, but the previous channel would switch between 8 and 4)
- things moving across the floor
- banging sounds that weren't the house settling (like hitting the side of a microwave that was by the bar my grandfather sat at)
- something touching me/my face shortly after I'd laid down, but wasn't asleep
- Lights moving across the wall at a rapid speed with no car/noise from a car outside
- something hitting the bed (though I was sleeping with this happened)
- the bed moving a foot or so with me on during a phone conversation
- Doors slamming shut with no windows open
- Shower turning on for a few moments and then off

When I was 19, I moved into the empty room at a friend's house. The ceiling fan had a light fixture with 4 sockets in it. One click would turn two on, another would turn the other two on, a third click would turn them all on, and a fourth turned them all off. I had a single red bulb I had in there. I'd come home from work and the red light would always be turned on. I asked my friend and his mother and the said they didn't go in there (and they could have possibly lied to mess with me). Now, I did have a cat that was enamored with the chain, but he'd have had to jump up, catch his claw on the chain in the exact right way, multiple times to get the red light on. My friends mother came in one night while I was watching a movie and explained to me that she'd encountered a presence back when she first moved into that house. At first, it was quite friendly and she communicated with it. Eventually, the presence started becoming aggressive and she ceased communication with it. It had been dormant into I moved in. A couple of days after she told me that story, a corkboard I had was scratched on the left side. Now, my cat could have done that too, but he'd have had to have jumped off of my bed and flailed his claws (there was nothing on the board to attract him). Possibly, but highly unlikely. The night after that, I woke up when the lights started turning on before settling on the red bulb (I can't sleep with a light on, so it was totally dark). It felt like there was something in the room. I didn't get back to sleep that night (wrote a lot of music that night instead). No sleep paralysis, I've NEVER had a history of sleep walking, none of the other explanations offered. After I was wide awake, the light was still on. I removed the red bulb later that day and the weird stuff stopped.

When I was 4, my mother and I lived in Benbrook, TX with her boyfriend who loved to scare me with his booming voice...hiding in my closet while I went to bed to spook me. However, one weekend, he was out of town. I woke up to this monstrous roar right outside my window. I woke up screaming and my mother came in and kind of freaked out because she'd locked my window, yet it was wide open. I thought it was Doug, but my mother told me that he was out of town. She closed and relocked it, calmed me down, and went away. A bit later, the window opened, this time waking me up, and the roar started up again. My screaming brought my mother in again. She then moved me into her room. I don't recall hearing it again.

What's odd is that I was 4 and yet distinctly remember this scene, including the quilt on my bed that my great-grandmother had made and how my room was set up. It's one of my oldest memories...likely the trauma I faced. I guess that experience, whatever it might have been, was the foundation for my willingness to at least entertain the notion of the supernatural.

Sep 23, 2010#81

Fun Size

What sense would that make? Everyone knows that God loves a good Marlboro now and again. Phillip Morris said it was right in the Bible.

Sep 23, 2010#82

Baerdog

Marlboros make God feel like a cowboy.

Sep 24, 2010#83

@Li3n

Ames said:
Sorry to disappoint but it's from the Quran.

The Bible does have a lot of stuff about false prophets and the devil being able to look like an angel too, so it's not all about blind faith either.

makare said:
The bible has changed form a lot over the years. I wouldn't get too excited Calleja.

Ehh... as i recall the dead sea scrolls showed that the old testament had very few changes in it, mostly stuff that could easily be atributed to translation errors.

MindDetective said:
Making an observation is not proving anything. When you say something is proven, there has to be a thing that you are referring to that is proven. Those things are theories. In your link to the wikipedia article on Theory, "proven" appears twice and in both cases it is in reference to things being proven false. We can demonstrate a theory is unworkable (false) or we can maintain that a theory still works with our observations, however a given theory should never be said to be true.

Yeah, i guess that gravity being a fact and the theory of gravity are different things... which is what i was saying when i posted that wiki link (of which i was just using the part before the Content tab, the theoria vs action thing).

Still, gravity existig is still a scientific fact, even if it's not the same thing as a theory.

And how would evolution not be proven if you actually observed that small changes within a species eventualy lead to a new species... that's basically what Darwin's theory was. Sure, they'd still be unknowns on the exact process, but it's not like heliocentrism isn't proven right now etc.

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 AM ----------

MindDetective said:
Making an observation is not proving anything. When you say something is proven, there has to be a thing that you are referring to that is proven. Those things are theories. In your link to the wikipedia article on Theory, "proven" appears twice and in both cases it is in reference to things being proven false. We can demonstrate a theory is unworkable (false) or we can maintain that a theory still works with our observations, however a given theory should never be said to be true.

Wait, are you saying heliocentrism isn't proven?! And Darwin's theory that new species arise from existing ones through small changes over time wouldn't be proven if you would actually observe that happen?!

Sure, there would still be unknowns and modifications to the original form of the theory (heliocentrism first assumed the sun was stationary etc.) but that doesn't mean they're not fact (the earth moving around the sun and living organisms evolving).

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------

DAMN INTERNET CONNECTION......... sorry about that.

Sep 24, 2010#84

Silver Jelly

KCWM said:
Snippage

Very spooky. I did well yesterday night deciding no to read this thread until the morning.

Sep 24, 2010#85

tegid

@lien:

fact: things fall
theory: gravity

The theory tries to explain a fact, but is not a fact itself.

Sep 24, 2010#86

@Li3n

tegid said:
@lien:

fact: things fall
theory: gravity

The theory tries to explain a fact, but is not a fact itself.

Theory: The Earth revolves around the Sun and not the other way around.

Fact: Yes it does.

And actually the current theory of gravity is more like the model of gravity, what actually causes it is another thing entirely.

Point is that it's not all that clear cut... and there's the fact that the things are that still theoretical right now are the ones that couldn't be proven by simple observation...

Sep 24, 2010#87

tegid

It's just a matter of wording then. What you are calling a theory is called a hypotheses in science, where a theory is more related to what you call a model (although not exactly the same thing)

Edit:

the·o·ry

1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.

hy·poth·e·sis

1. a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts

Sep 24, 2010#88

@Li3n

tegid said:
It's just a matter of words then. What you are calling a theory is called a hypotheses in science, where a theory is an explanation that has been sufficiently backed up by proof.

I'm pretty sure Heliocentrism was backed up by proof even before we went into space (it's called math) etc...

And Newton's theory of gravity was backed up by Neptune until Mercury came and screwed it up...

A hypothesis is an untested theory, but that doesn't mean that a theory can't get invalidated by even more testing.

The idea was that a theory can be considered proven at some point depending on what it says exactly. You could say that that is a matter or wording i guess, as heliocentrism also involved the universe as understood then and in proving it you opened up another problem with the universe and the sun actually spinning around the galactic core etc...

Stupid mentats... "Uproot your questions from their ground and the dangling roots will be seen. More questions!"

Sep 24, 2010#89

CynicismKills

Well, I ain't 'fraid of no ghost, if that's what you're asking here.

Sep 24, 2010#90

MindDetective

@Li3n said:
A hypothesis is an untested theory, but that doesn't mean that a theory can't get invalidated by even more testing.

You are simply wrong here. A hypothesis is a prediction that is derived from a theory. Theories beget MANY predictions. One thing a hypothesis is not is an explanation for a phenomenon.

Theory: Mass bends space-time so that other objects are drawn to each other.

Hypothesis: If I drop a ball, it will fall to the Earth. <- NOT a theory, a prediction. It has even been tested!

Sep 24, 2010#91

sixpackshaker

Oooo, Scooby Doo, the Anti-X-Files.

Scooby Doo:
The gang hears a rumor of ghost. They believe the story, and believe in Ghosts. Investigate, and prove that it is an angry man in a rubber mask.

X-Files:
Mulder and Scully hear of a rumor of a ghost. They do not believe the story, and do not believe in Ghosts. Investigate, and prove that it was a ghosts, and go on believing that there are no ghosts.

I wish I could find the comedian that did that bit first....

Sep 24, 2010#92

MindDetective

Tinwhistler said:
Introduction to the Scientific Method

Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena

Click to expand...

From your last link:

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

I added the emphasis.

I educate students on the scientific method, experimental design, and statistical analyses as part of my job. I also generate research hypotheses and test them with psychology experiments. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my ass. Cherry picking poorly worded lectures (from 1966?) with a Google search isn't exactly throwing a spotlight onto things.

Also, what more is there to say on ghosts?

Sep 24, 2010#93

Chazwozel

@Li3n said:
A hypothesis is an untested theory, but that doesn't mean that a theory can't get invalidated by even more testing.

Holy crap! Science understanding fail award goes to you.

Sep 24, 2010#94

Silver Jelly

@lien, I don't know what your field of expertise is, but you are discussing with scientists. If I was in your position, I would have left the discussion long ago. They are and epic mob.

Sep 24, 2010#95

LittleSin

Man, every member of my family has SOME spooky story. Now, some of them are told as spookfest then suddenly turn into comedies when the true source of the supernatural occurrence is revealed...but others are just scary.

I come from an extended family of fisher men though. Superstition runs deep in those veins.

Sep 24, 2010#96

Frankie Williamson

I find that most ghost stories or spooky happenings in my family are the results of wishful thinking or stress based on loved one's deaths. I dunno, I just don't believe in any of it. I've had fucked up spooky times in my house, but nothing that just couldn't be easily explained. I just don't believe there's this magical spirit energy left over when we die.

Sep 24, 2010#97

KCWM

Frank said:
I find that most ghost stories or spooky happenings in my family are the results of wishful thinking or stress based on loved one's deaths. I dunno, I just don't believe in any of it. I've had fucked up spooky times in my house, but nothing that just couldn't be easily explained. I just don't believe there's this magical spirit energy left over when we die.

I tried to do that with so many things that happened in my grandmother's house. But, no amount of wishful thinking makes a persistent cough of a 70+ year old woman that warrants a trip to the ER (having had walking pneumonia diagnosed for myself when I was experiencing the same thing) suddenly go away. Medically explainable? Possible, but I'd venture a guess that it's unlikely. Wishful thinking doesn't make a queen sized bed with a (then) 200 lb man roll 6" on it's own (no, I didn't include that in my novel), nor does it make something violently strike the bed that I'm laying on.

Believe me...I wish it was simply wishful thinking. I'd honestly prefer to have memories of my grandfather or uncle than see an incorporeal figure. That reminds me...

My uncle died on June 11th, 1991 from a self inflicted gunshot wound. When we received news he was on the way to the hospital, I was dropped off at a friend's house to play (not told what was going on). While we were outside horsing around, I stopped and looked up into the trees in their backyard. Up, right above a powerline that ran across their yard, was the shape of a man. The shape looked kind of like the Predator does when his camouflage is active...or like you're looking down into the surface of a swimming pool. I stood there watching it for a moment before it ascended into the sky and disappeared. I do not remember the exact time anymore. However, when my aunt and uncle picked me up, they were driving and I said "Jeff's dead, isn't he?" Keep in mind that I'd not been told he was in any sort of condition or on his way to the hospital. They stammered and said, "No...what makes you ask that?" I told them about what I saw. They asked when I saw that and I told them the approximate time. Apparently, that was just after my uncle had passed away. The even odder thing is, two days before he died, he told me "I'm going to be going away. I won't ever stop thinking about you or watching over you." I was 12. I had no idea what he was getting at. A coincidence? Likely. But, I'll never forget what I saw.

Sep 25, 2010#98

Chazwozel

Frank said:
I find that most ghost stories or spooky happenings in my family are the results of wishful thinking or stress based on loved one's deaths. I dunno, I just don't believe in any of it. I've had fucked up spooky times in my house, but nothing that just couldn't be easily explained. I just don't believe there's this magical spirit energy left over when we die.

You know what is cool though. The atoms that make up your body, they never die. Hell, you're made up of stuff that's billions of years old!

Sep 25, 2010#99

checkeredhat

We went to investigate a haunted cemetery once. It was supposed to be haunted with the ghost of a woman, who screamed all night as she relived her death over and over or something like that.

When we got there, it took about 20seconds for us to realize the place was just a hotspot for screech owls.

(Short answer: No. But I don't deny the paranormal either. Not outright. I just think there's likely othe explanations, and for now I take some interest in hearing the unexplained stories.)

Sep 25, 2010#100

Null

checkeredhat said:
We went to investigate a haunted cemetery once. It was supposed to be haunted with the ghost of a woman, who screamed all night as she relived her death over and over or something like that.

When we got there, it took about 20seconds for us to realize the place was just a hotspot for screech owls.

(Short answer: No. But I don't deny the paranormal either. Not outright. I just think there's likely othe explanations, and for now I take some interest in hearing the unexplained stories.)

Yeah, I've heard stories like that, and it turned out to be the calls of foxes (which, to be fair, are pretty goddamn eerie). In fact, I think that was the result on Destination Truth or a similar show at one site. They've come up with a couple of very reasonable explanations for possible cryptids - in Egypt, this supposed monster was, in all likelihood, a large feral dog, as there was a population of such in the fields outside a few villages. Feral dogs can be very vicious and are known to attack people. Another, the "Nandi-bear" I think it was called, in Uganda was, by all evidence, a misidentified hyena - the description of the creature was quite hyena-like and the team caught footage of a hyena stalking their base camp.

Sep 26, 2010#101

CrimsonSoul

I believe in ghost. When I was growing up the bedroom I slept in was the same bedroom that my grandmother died in. One night it was just me and my mom at home and we were watching tv (always got an erie feeling in the back of the house, but that's beside the point) and I needed something from my bedroom, just as I rounded the corner I started hearing two females talking to each other clear as day (no it wasn't the tv it was clear across the house), scared the bejebus out of me because I wasn't expecting it and I never did go get whatever it was I wanted.

Sep 26, 2010#102

Chazwozel

ThatGuy said:
I believe in ghost. When I was growing up the bedroom I slept in was the same bedroom that my grandmother died in. One night it was just me and my mom at home and we were watching tv (always got an erie feeling in the back of the house, but that's beside the point) and I needed something from my bedroom, just as I rounded the corner I started hearing two females talking to each other clear as day (no it wasn't the tv it was clear across the house), scared the bejebus out of me because I wasn't expecting it and I never did go get whatever it was I wanted.

Auditory hallucination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. It's happened to me before, about twice. Sounds plain as anything and then goes away.

Sep 26, 2010#103

Tress

A friend of mine recently called me in a panic because she believed something evil attacked her in her bedroom. She explained how she woke up but couldn't move, and it felt like something was on her chest. She said she "sorta saw" a black shape hovering over her.

I told her it was most likely "Old Hag Syndrome." After reading about it she agreed, and it put her mind at ease.

There's almost always a rational explanation for things.

Sep 27, 2010#104

@Li3n

SilverJelly said:
@lien, I don't know what your field of expertise is, but you are discussing with scientists. If I was in your position, I would have left the discussion long ago. They are and epic mob.

The funny thing about life is that, unlike in videogames, you gain XP from losing too, sometimes even more then from winning.

MindDetective said:
You are simply wrong here. A hypothesis is a prediction that is derived from a theory. Theories beget MANY predictions. One thing a hypothesis is not is an explanation for a phenomenon.

Theory: Mass bends space-time so that other objects are drawn to each other.

Hypothesis: If I drop a ball, it will fall to the Earth. <- NOT a theory, a prediction. It has even been tested!

Ehh... i'm pretty sure that in order for for a theory to come into existence someone needs to think of it, and hypothesis basically comes from the greek words for "to suppose". I do guess nowadays starting up wholly original theories is rarer and it might not come up, and most hypotesises would simply belong to existing theories etc.

Of course the actual nomenclature applies differently depending on the field you're in and other stuff, and hypothesis probably applies to what you're describing too even if most explinations i remember usually take the other route, see: Hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lets take your example and break it down from a historical perspective... people have done the dropping the ball thing way before someone thought of dropping 2 balls of different weights, then doing a mathematical formula and then arriving at Einstein's space-time bending thing...

Chaz said:
Holy crap! Science understanding fail award goes to you.

Ok, i should have put "basically" there to imply it's a gross simplification.

Sep 27, 2010#105

Silver Jelly

I don't find the latest blamimation particularly funny, but here it is: Penny Arcade - Blamimation with Kris and Scott

Sep 27, 2010#106

@Li3n

KURTZ IS COPYING US... MAN THE HARPOONS!

Sep 27, 2010#107

fade

Two things I miss about South Carolina (my home state): pulled pork, and ghost stories. It's almost like an epidemic there. There's one for everything. The cool thing is that most of them are creepy. In fact, Fade names the creatures he encounters after SC ghosts (it's set there). The hag article above reminded me of SC's ghost infatuation.

There's one I particularly like called the Hound of Goshen, which is similar in some respects to Jurassic Bark. It's the ghost of an ill-fated traveler's dog that sat atop his grave until it died of starvation. Carriages and cars along the road report a large, white dog that noiselessly travels alongside them, keeping pace no matter the speed. At the closed cemetery gates, the dog turns and bounds through.

---------- Post added at 03:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

I totally forgot about the science discussion! I feel like Tackleberry showing up after the gunfight.

Here's some Actual Slides™ I use in my Geology 101 class about this very topic: http://egg.louisiana.edu/~jack/science.pdf

Sep 27, 2010#108

Chazwozel

Sep 28, 2010#109

Matt²

yeah, and this one just froze up my computer!

---------- Post added at 07:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 AM ----------

(True story.. as I was typing this the first time, my computer literally froze, which it NEVER does!!)

Oct 3, 2010#110

The Lovely Boehner

The answer to every single ghost story ever in history:

1) You were dreaming
2) You wanted attention
3) You exaggerated something
4) You were hallucinating

Or any combination of the 4.

Oct 6, 2010#111

@Li3n

fade said:
Here's some Actual Slides™ I use in my Geology 101 class about this very topic: http://egg.louisiana.edu/~jack/science.pdf

Actually that thing about the "Earth is flat" being a thing 2000 years ago was a misconception last time i checked...

Oct 6, 2010#112

fade

A misconception by whom? Aristotle wrote the things he wrote. Who was he trying to convince, then, if everyone believed it?

Oct 6, 2010#113

makare

Philosophers tend to think about common things especially if they are professional philosophers with nothing else to do.

Oct 6, 2010#114

fade

A google search does reveal a well-known flat earth misconception, but around Columbus's time, not Aristotle. Sure, other Greeks believed in various Earth models, but on the whole, they were flat earth.

Oct 6, 2010#115

@Li3n

I'm pretty sure 2000 years ago would be at most the 1st century BC: Spherical Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, they did have ideas about the Earth being flat, but it wasn't exactly the only idea around...

I'm afraid we must demand that you change your presentation to state that "2300 years ago there was still a debate about whether or not the world was flat, spherical or on the back of a turtle"!!!

Oct 6, 2010#116

makare

Hmm how do we assess this? Are we going by what the average person thought or what educated people thought? Even today there is quite a disparity there back then probably even more so.

Oct 6, 2010#117

fade

Alien, I totally agree that the idea was around well before Aristotle. I'm not arguing about that. Date or not, it's still a cool set of evidence that Aristotle came up with. I would love to meet him. He's on my "dinner list".

Oct 6, 2010#118

@Li3n

You want to invite Aristotle over for dinner, poison him and bury him in your tomato garden?!

But i remember Asimov writing a response to some lit student about how science wasn't so much wrong as simply evolving or something that mentioned how even more ancient peoples realised the earth had a curvature by seeing how ships or other stuff slowly disappeared on the horizon etc... so it wasn't as simple as them just being flat earthers...

But it's not really that important that i'm being very serious about you having to change your presentation...

makare said:
Hmm how do we assess this? Are we going by what the average person thought or what educated people thought? Even today there is quite a disparity there back then probably even more so.

Actually that was kinda what i was thinking of when i said it was a misconception...

Oct 6, 2010#119

fade

Well I did say "common knowledge" in the presentation.

---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

Like I said, I'm not arguing that other people put forth the idea before Aristotle. That was most likely true. But Aristotle, being the bug in people's ears, probably brought it to the forefront.

Oct 9, 2010#120

@Li3n

fade said:
Well I did say "common knowledge" in the presentation.

Well... fine, i'll have to accept it then.... :mad:

Oh, and something for the previous thing: Georges Lemaître - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Lemaître proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'.[1][2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre#cite_note-1

Man, i should have known from the get go that the reason why it was so similar to some mythology is because a priest was involved...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre#cite_note-1

Oct 11, 2010#121

Cajungal

Chazwozel said:
Auditory hallucination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh man, this happens to me a lot right as I'm falling asleep! It's so spooky... I dream a lot at night, and usually I'll have those falling dreams that wake me just as I'm drifting off. The falling is usually accompanied by some sort of loud voice. Not supernatural, but still weird. And kinda fun.

I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. It's happened to me before, about twice. Sounds plain as anything and then goes away.

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