Do you believe in ghosts?

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C

Chazwozel

[17:63] thou shall not let...moochers into thine hut.

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Even religious figures can be skeptics:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
-- Buddha
Pretty good advice for religion and science.
Or God can even ask you to be skeptical in scripture:

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
[/QUOTE]

And yet Muslims still do things because "God says so"
 
M

makare

holy crap ame, is that from the bible?? Please tell me it's from the bible so I can memorize the numbers and throw them out whenever someone uses the bible as an excuse for being irrational.
Sorry to disappoint but it's from the Quran.[/QUOTE]

Even if it had been from the bible the way people pick and choose what to follow it wouldn't have mattered.
 
C

Chazwozel

holy crap ame, is that from the bible?? Please tell me it's from the bible so I can memorize the numbers and throw them out whenever someone uses the bible as an excuse for being irrational.
Sorry to disappoint but it's from the Quran.[/QUOTE]

Even if it had been from the bible the way people pick and choose what to follow it wouldn't have mattered.[/QUOTE]

Word. You can do pretty much anything with bible and quran versus. People can twist any scripture into whatever their little heart desires.
 
M

makare

the following is makare's opinion, which what she writes usually is but just to be doubly clear-

I think the Bible is a wonderful book. It is excellent for study and introspection. It is also helpful to use when trying to figure out a path of action. However, so many people seem to use the Bible instead of as a tool to assist understanding but as a replacement for thinking at all! That really bothers me. The Bible is full of stories that can help you to think about certain things it certainly shouldn't be used as a means to not think at all.
 
Let's see...(pulled from another forum I post on that had a thread about aliens, ghosts, demons)

I can't find my post in an old thread. For the record, I have never had an illegal drug, I have never hallucinated, I was wide awake either well before or shortly after the experiences started, and I try to come up with mundane explanations for everything I experience before accepting it as something I simply can not explain.

I believe in aliens. I've not seen one personally, but I have seen a UFO, at least in the actual sense of the word. I was driving by downtown Fort Worth late at night and and a blue light in the sky traveling from north to south caught my attention. It was traveling at the speed of a normal aircraft. Suddenly, it reversed course at a 45 degree angle at an incredibly rate of speed...faster than anything that I've personally seen in person or on TV. I quickly lost sight of it.

As a kid, I saw this strange + shaped light moving through the sky high above my house. I have no idea what it was. Now, I did grow up around Carswell Air Force Base, so it could have easily been some weird, experimental aircraft.

I also believe in ghosts because of events that have taken place at two locations I lived. The first started shortly after my grandfather died back in '96. He had a particular blanket that he liked to sleep with. When I went to grab a blanket out of the hall closet, his was on top and so I grabbed it. For some reason, I looked over and I saw him at the back of the kitchen, walking from a bar stool that he used to sit at, shuffling the way he did, half stooped over, and with the white t-shirt and shorts he often wore, and with slicked back black hair (he had little gray hair for a man in his late 60s). He was looking down and walked from the bar over to the table and disappeared. My mother asked me if I was OK because I'd gone pale and quiet.

Years later, I was up late at night, around 1a or 2a. Now, I was a night owl and regularly stayed up until 4a or 5a in the morning, so I was wide awake. My grandmother was coughing horribly...to the point that I'd decided I was going to take her to ER. She'd been sick for a few days and her cough had gotten progressively worse. I got dressed and opened to the door to go wake her up. As soon as I did, I saw a figure walk past me and into her room. I have no idea why, but I didn't panic, didn't yell out, just watched. The figure stood over her bed and she stopped coughing. The figure disappeared and she didn't cough the rest of the night. She was sick for a while after that, but her cough got significantly better after that night.

One day, I came home early for work on a day my grandmother was supposed to go to a dr's appointment. I pulled into the driveway and saw someone standing in the window. I was thinking it was my aunt, who was going to drive my grandmother. Her car was in the driveway so I assumed they were still home. I opened the garage and my grandmother's car was gone. I walked into the house and as soon as I stepped foot in the living room, I went cold, like a breeze blew past me, and it felt like someone was standing in the room...like the space I was in didn't feel like my own. I said outloud "this isn't fun anymore". After a moment the feeling went away.

In a music related note, I had an old strat leaning against the TV stand in my room and accidentally hit it with the back of my foot. It started to fall before I had a chance to turn around and catch it. I watched, dumbfounded, as the guitar stopped short before hitting a brick I had in my room...kind of suspended in mid air. It moved over slightly and then fell to the ground. I have NO explanation for that one.

A lot of other random stuff happened,

- from the TV changing channels (for example...from 8 to 5, but the previous channel would switch between 8 and 4)
- things moving across the floor
- banging sounds that weren't the house settling (like hitting the side of a microwave that was by the bar my grandfather sat at)
- something touching me/my face shortly after I'd laid down, but wasn't asleep
- Lights moving across the wall at a rapid speed with no car/noise from a car outside
- something hitting the bed (though I was sleeping with this happened)
- the bed moving a foot or so with me on during a phone conversation
- Doors slamming shut with no windows open
- Shower turning on for a few moments and then off

When I was 19, I moved into the empty room at a friend's house. The ceiling fan had a light fixture with 4 sockets in it. One click would turn two on, another would turn the other two on, a third click would turn them all on, and a fourth turned them all off. I had a single red bulb I had in there. I'd come home from work and the red light would always be turned on. I asked my friend and his mother and the said they didn't go in there (and they could have possibly lied to mess with me). Now, I did have a cat that was enamored with the chain, but he'd have had to jump up, catch his claw on the chain in the exact right way, multiple times to get the red light on. My friends mother came in one night while I was watching a movie and explained to me that she'd encountered a presence back when she first moved into that house. At first, it was quite friendly and she communicated with it. Eventually, the presence started becoming aggressive and she ceased communication with it. It had been dormant into I moved in. A couple of days after she told me that story, a corkboard I had was scratched on the left side. Now, my cat could have done that too, but he'd have had to have jumped off of my bed and flailed his claws (there was nothing on the board to attract him). Possibly, but highly unlikely. The night after that, I woke up when the lights started turning on before settling on the red bulb (I can't sleep with a light on, so it was totally dark). It felt like there was something in the room. I didn't get back to sleep that night (wrote a lot of music that night instead). No sleep paralysis, I've NEVER had a history of sleep walking, none of the other explanations offered. After I was wide awake, the light was still on. I removed the red bulb later that day and the weird stuff stopped.

When I was 4, my mother and I lived in Benbrook, TX with her boyfriend who loved to scare me with his booming voice...hiding in my closet while I went to bed to spook me. However, one weekend, he was out of town. I woke up to this monstrous roar right outside my window. I woke up screaming and my mother came in and kind of freaked out because she'd locked my window, yet it was wide open. I thought it was Doug, but my mother told me that he was out of town. She closed and relocked it, calmed me down, and went away. A bit later, the window opened, this time waking me up, and the roar started up again. My screaming brought my mother in again. She then moved me into her room. I don't recall hearing it again.

What's odd is that I was 4 and yet distinctly remember this scene, including the quilt on my bed that my great-grandmother had made and how my room was set up. It's one of my oldest memories...likely the trauma I faced. I guess that experience, whatever it might have been, was the foundation for my willingness to at least entertain the notion of the supernatural.
 
What sense would that make? Everyone knows that God loves a good Marlboro now and again. Phillip Morris said it was right in the Bible.
 
Ames said:
Sorry to disappoint but it's from the Quran.
The Bible does have a lot of stuff about false prophets and the devil being able to look like an angel too, so it's not all about blind faith either.

The bible has changed form a lot over the years. I wouldn't get too excited Calleja.
Ehh... as i recall the dead sea scrolls showed that the old testament had very few changes in it, mostly stuff that could easily be atributed to translation errors.

Making an observation is not proving anything. When you say something is proven, there has to be a thing that you are referring to that is proven. Those things are theories. In your link to the wikipedia article on Theory, "proven" appears twice and in both cases it is in reference to things being proven false. We can demonstrate a theory is unworkable (false) or we can maintain that a theory still works with our observations, however a given theory should never be said to be true.
Yeah, i guess that gravity being a fact and the theory of gravity are different things... which is what i was saying when i posted that wiki link (of which i was just using the part before the Content tab, the theoria vs action thing).

Still, gravity existig is still a scientific fact, even if it's not the same thing as a theory.

And how would evolution not be proven if you actually observed that small changes within a species eventualy lead to a new species... that's basically what Darwin's theory was. Sure, they'd still be unknowns on the exact process, but it's not like heliocentrism isn't proven right now etc.

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 AM ----------

Making an observation is not proving anything. When you say something is proven, there has to be a thing that you are referring to that is proven. Those things are theories. In your link to the wikipedia article on Theory, "proven" appears twice and in both cases it is in reference to things being proven false. We can demonstrate a theory is unworkable (false) or we can maintain that a theory still works with our observations, however a given theory should never be said to be true.
Wait, are you saying heliocentrism isn't proven?! And Darwin's theory that new species arise from existing ones through small changes over time wouldn't be proven if you would actually observe that happen?!

Sure, there would still be unknowns and modifications to the original form of the theory (heliocentrism first assumed the sun was stationary etc.) but that doesn't mean they're not fact (the earth moving around the sun and living organisms evolving).

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------

DAMN INTERNET CONNECTION......... sorry about that.
 
@lien:

fact: things fall
theory: gravity

The theory tries to explain a fact, but is not a fact itself.
 
@lien:

fact: things fall
theory: gravity

The theory tries to explain a fact, but is not a fact itself.
Theory: The Earth revolves around the Sun and not the other way around.

Fact: Yes it does.

And actually the current theory of gravity is more like the model of gravity, what actually causes it is another thing entirely.

Point is that it's not all that clear cut... and there's the fact that the things are that still theoretical right now are the ones that couldn't be proven by simple observation...
 
It's just a matter of wording then. What you are calling a theory is called a hypotheses in science, where a theory is more related to what you call a model (although not exactly the same thing)

Edit:

the·o·ry

1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.

hy·poth·e·sis


1. a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts
 
It's just a matter of words then. What you are calling a theory is called a hypotheses in science, where a theory is an explanation that has been sufficiently backed up by proof.
I'm pretty sure Heliocentrism was backed up by proof even before we went into space (it's called math) etc...

And Newton's theory of gravity was backed up by Neptune until Mercury came and screwed it up...

A hypothesis is an untested theory, but that doesn't mean that a theory can't get invalidated by even more testing.

The idea was that a theory can be considered proven at some point depending on what it says exactly. You could say that that is a matter or wording i guess, as heliocentrism also involved the universe as understood then and in proving it you opened up another problem with the universe and the sun actually spinning around the galactic core etc...

Stupid mentats... "Uproot your questions from their ground and the dangling roots will be seen. More questions!"
 
A hypothesis is an untested theory, but that doesn't mean that a theory can't get invalidated by even more testing.
You are simply wrong here. A hypothesis is a prediction that is derived from a theory. Theories beget MANY predictions. One thing a hypothesis is not is an explanation for a phenomenon.

Theory: Mass bends space-time so that other objects are drawn to each other.

Hypothesis: If I drop a ball, it will fall to the Earth. <- NOT a theory, a prediction. It has even been tested!
 
Oooo, Scooby Doo, the Anti-X-Files.

Scooby Doo:
The gang hears a rumor of ghost. They believe the story, and believe in Ghosts. Investigate, and prove that it is an angry man in a rubber mask.

X-Files:
Mulder and Scully hear of a rumor of a ghost. They do not believe the story, and do not believe in Ghosts. Investigate, and prove that it was a ghosts, and go on believing that there are no ghosts.


I wish I could find the comedian that did that bit first....
 
Introduction to the Scientific Method
Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena
From your last link:

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
I added the emphasis.

I educate students on the scientific method, experimental design, and statistical analyses as part of my job. I also generate research hypotheses and test them with psychology experiments. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my ass. Cherry picking poorly worded lectures (from 1966?) with a Google search isn't exactly throwing a spotlight onto things.

Also, what more is there to say on ghosts?
 
@lien, I don't know what your field of expertise is, but you are discussing with scientists. If I was in your position, I would have left the discussion long ago. They are and epic mob.
 
Man, every member of my family has SOME spooky story. Now, some of them are told as spookfest then suddenly turn into comedies when the true source of the supernatural occurrence is revealed...but others are just scary.

I come from an extended family of fisher men though. Superstition runs deep in those veins.
 
I find that most ghost stories or spooky happenings in my family are the results of wishful thinking or stress based on loved one's deaths. I dunno, I just don't believe in any of it. I've had fucked up spooky times in my house, but nothing that just couldn't be easily explained. I just don't believe there's this magical spirit energy left over when we die.
 
I find that most ghost stories or spooky happenings in my family are the results of wishful thinking or stress based on loved one's deaths. I dunno, I just don't believe in any of it. I've had fucked up spooky times in my house, but nothing that just couldn't be easily explained. I just don't believe there's this magical spirit energy left over when we die.
I tried to do that with so many things that happened in my grandmother's house. But, no amount of wishful thinking makes a persistent cough of a 70+ year old woman that warrants a trip to the ER (having had walking pneumonia diagnosed for myself when I was experiencing the same thing) suddenly go away. Medically explainable? Possible, but I'd venture a guess that it's unlikely. Wishful thinking doesn't make a queen sized bed with a (then) 200 lb man roll 6" on it's own (no, I didn't include that in my novel), nor does it make something violently strike the bed that I'm laying on.

Believe me...I wish it was simply wishful thinking. I'd honestly prefer to have memories of my grandfather or uncle than see an incorporeal figure. That reminds me...

My uncle died on June 11th, 1991 from a self inflicted gunshot wound. When we received news he was on the way to the hospital, I was dropped off at a friend's house to play (not told what was going on). While we were outside horsing around, I stopped and looked up into the trees in their backyard. Up, right above a powerline that ran across their yard, was the shape of a man. The shape looked kind of like the Predator does when his camouflage is active...or like you're looking down into the surface of a swimming pool. I stood there watching it for a moment before it ascended into the sky and disappeared. I do not remember the exact time anymore. However, when my aunt and uncle picked me up, they were driving and I said "Jeff's dead, isn't he?" Keep in mind that I'd not been told he was in any sort of condition or on his way to the hospital. They stammered and said, "No...what makes you ask that?" I told them about what I saw. They asked when I saw that and I told them the approximate time. Apparently, that was just after my uncle had passed away. The even odder thing is, two days before he died, he told me "I'm going to be going away. I won't ever stop thinking about you or watching over you." I was 12. I had no idea what he was getting at. A coincidence? Likely. But, I'll never forget what I saw.
 
C

Chazwozel

I find that most ghost stories or spooky happenings in my family are the results of wishful thinking or stress based on loved one's deaths. I dunno, I just don't believe in any of it. I've had fucked up spooky times in my house, but nothing that just couldn't be easily explained. I just don't believe there's this magical spirit energy left over when we die.

You know what is cool though. The atoms that make up your body, they never die. Hell, you're made up of stuff that's billions of years old!
 
We went to investigate a haunted cemetery once. It was supposed to be haunted with the ghost of a woman, who screamed all night as she relived her death over and over or something like that.

When we got there, it took about 20seconds for us to realize the place was just a hotspot for screech owls.

(Short answer: No. But I don't deny the paranormal either. Not outright. I just think there's likely othe explanations, and for now I take some interest in hearing the unexplained stories.)
 
We went to investigate a haunted cemetery once. It was supposed to be haunted with the ghost of a woman, who screamed all night as she relived her death over and over or something like that.

When we got there, it took about 20seconds for us to realize the place was just a hotspot for screech owls.

(Short answer: No. But I don't deny the paranormal either. Not outright. I just think there's likely othe explanations, and for now I take some interest in hearing the unexplained stories.)
Yeah, I've heard stories like that, and it turned out to be the calls of foxes (which, to be fair, are pretty goddamn eerie). In fact, I think that was the result on Destination Truth or a similar show at one site. They've come up with a couple of very reasonable explanations for possible cryptids - in Egypt, this supposed monster was, in all likelihood, a large feral dog, as there was a population of such in the fields outside a few villages. Feral dogs can be very vicious and are known to attack people. Another, the "Nandi-bear" I think it was called, in Uganda was, by all evidence, a misidentified hyena - the description of the creature was quite hyena-like and the team caught footage of a hyena stalking their base camp.
 
I believe in ghost. When I was growing up the bedroom I slept in was the same bedroom that my grandmother died in. One night it was just me and my mom at home and we were watching tv (always got an erie feeling in the back of the house, but that's beside the point) and I needed something from my bedroom, just as I rounded the corner I started hearing two females talking to each other clear as day (no it wasn't the tv it was clear across the house), scared the bejebus out of me because I wasn't expecting it and I never did go get whatever it was I wanted.
 
C

Chazwozel

I believe in ghost. When I was growing up the bedroom I slept in was the same bedroom that my grandmother died in. One night it was just me and my mom at home and we were watching tv (always got an erie feeling in the back of the house, but that's beside the point) and I needed something from my bedroom, just as I rounded the corner I started hearing two females talking to each other clear as day (no it wasn't the tv it was clear across the house), scared the bejebus out of me because I wasn't expecting it and I never did go get whatever it was I wanted.
Auditory hallucination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. It's happened to me before, about twice. Sounds plain as anything and then goes away.
 
A friend of mine recently called me in a panic because she believed something evil attacked her in her bedroom. She explained how she woke up but couldn't move, and it felt like something was on her chest. She said she "sorta saw" a black shape hovering over her.

I told her it was most likely "Old Hag Syndrome." After reading about it she agreed, and it put her mind at ease.

There's almost always a rational explanation for things.
 
SilverJelly said:
@lien, I don't know what your field of expertise is, but you are discussing with scientists. If I was in your position, I would have left the discussion long ago. They are and epic mob.
The funny thing about life is that, unlike in videogames, you gain XP from losing too, sometimes even more then from winning.


You are simply wrong here. A hypothesis is a prediction that is derived from a theory. Theories beget MANY predictions. One thing a hypothesis is not is an explanation for a phenomenon.

Theory: Mass bends space-time so that other objects are drawn to each other.

Hypothesis: If I drop a ball, it will fall to the Earth. <- NOT a theory, a prediction. It has even been tested!
Ehh... i'm pretty sure that in order for for a theory to come into existence someone needs to think of it, and hypothesis basically comes from the greek words for "to suppose". I do guess nowadays starting up wholly original theories is rarer and it might not come up, and most hypotesises would simply belong to existing theories etc.

Of course the actual nomenclature applies differently depending on the field you're in and other stuff, and hypothesis probably applies to what you're describing too even if most explinations i remember usually take the other route, see: Hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lets take your example and break it down from a historical perspective... people have done the dropping the ball thing way before someone thought of dropping 2 balls of different weights, then doing a mathematical formula and then arriving at Einstein's space-time bending thing...

Chaz said:
Holy crap! Science understanding fail award goes to you.
Ok, i should have put "basically" there to imply it's a gross simplification.
 
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