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Federal Law Enforcement Rant
#1
Dusty668
Dusty668
Source: News Headlines
Source: The Associated Press: Feds seize movie piracy websites in sweeping raid
What the FUCK????? It takes 20 years to become an American citizen, non citizens are being shot on our borders as they pass back and forth, and states are doing questionable things to try to protect their economies and citizens, and preventing Joe College from downloading a copy of some damn movie/TV show is THE IMPORTANT THING TO DO????
Ok, I gotta admit a lot of this is stress from having to put up with all the bullshit I heard during the presidential campaigns WHICH HAD ALMOST EASED OFF, but fuck my horta people, did we at least get something out of selling a government agency to Hollywood? How long until we freaking nuke Bollywood?
How can the government justify the use of the customs service to prop up a poor business model? Will possible alternate energy sources creators be capped by ICE to protect Standard Oil? Especially since the GAO (Government Accounting Office) debunks the MPAA's clanking claims about how Movie piracy is costing the US Billions of dollars.
Jeebus, at least when Clinton took bribes from China it helped lower the Tariff levy between the US and China.
The head of ICE, John Morton, says that the number of illegal movie sites is dramatically rising both in the U.S. and abroad, and organized crime is behind some of them. ICE is putting movie piracy front and center in this new initiative, by making its first actions to protect the movie studios' intellectual property.
Source: The Associated Press: Feds seize movie piracy websites in sweeping raid
LOS ANGELES — U.S. officials on Wednesday announced a major crackdown on movie piracy that involved seizing several websites that were offering downloads of pirated movies just hours after they appeared in theaters. Officials also seized assets from 15 bank, investment and advertising accounts, and executed residential search warrants in North Carolina, New Jersey, New York and Washington.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials worked with the Department of Homeland Security and the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. The raids were the first actions in a new initiative to combat Internet counterfeiting and piracy called "Operation In Our Sites."
What the FUCK????? It takes 20 years to become an American citizen, non citizens are being shot on our borders as they pass back and forth, and states are doing questionable things to try to protect their economies and citizens, and preventing Joe College from downloading a copy of some damn movie/TV show is THE IMPORTANT THING TO DO????
Ok, I gotta admit a lot of this is stress from having to put up with all the bullshit I heard during the presidential campaigns WHICH HAD ALMOST EASED OFF, but fuck my horta people, did we at least get something out of selling a government agency to Hollywood? How long until we freaking nuke Bollywood?
How can the government justify the use of the customs service to prop up a poor business model? Will possible alternate energy sources creators be capped by ICE to protect Standard Oil? Especially since the GAO (Government Accounting Office) debunks the MPAA's clanking claims about how Movie piracy is costing the US Billions of dollars.
Jeebus, at least when Clinton took bribes from China it helped lower the Tariff levy between the US and China.
#2
Chibibar
Chibibar
Tax dollars my friends.... and generous campaign funds.
#3
Troll
Troll
Downloading pirated movies is illegal. I'm sorry, but that's the reality. They have to enforce the law.
#4
General Specific
General Specific
Yeah, I don't feel sorry for anyone who is caught knowingly breaking the law. They know pirating movies is illegal so now they are reaping the consequences. Is it the most important thing that could be done w/ the time & money of this government agency? Hell no
#5
Piotyr
Piotyr
Not to mention cheap, easy and quick to catch and prosecute.Yeah, I don't feel sorry for anyone who is caught knowingly breaking the law. They know pirating movies is illegal so now they are reaping the consequences. Is it the most important thing that could be done w/ the time & money of this government agency? Hell no
#6
Zarvox
Zarvox
OP - tax dollars don't work that way. You don't say, "oh ho, we have this problem with society, we must throw ALL OUR MONEY AT IT, and spend none on other issues." You try to spend money on all of your problems, and spend an amount equivalent to how big a deal the problem is. Is that goal ever going to be reached? No. But that's what you shoot for.
So, yeah, some money is going to be thrown at the less-big-of-a-deal problems like piracy. Deal with it. What you're proposing (not spending money on anti-piracy stuff while there are bigger problems raging) is akin to suggesting that we stop funding public school humanities classes because our science classes lag so far behind the rest of the world.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone (the ICE included) is saying that piracy is the ICE's biggest goal.
So, yeah, some money is going to be thrown at the less-big-of-a-deal problems like piracy. Deal with it. What you're proposing (not spending money on anti-piracy stuff while there are bigger problems raging) is akin to suggesting that we stop funding public school humanities classes because our science classes lag so far behind the rest of the world.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone (the ICE included) is saying that piracy is the ICE's biggest goal.
#7
GasBandit
GasBandit
Don't worry, something else will come along to replace it. The Lesson of Napster still has yet to be learned.
#8
Seraphyn
Seraphyn
Fighting internet piracy is a waste of time and money if you ask me. Just let the MPAA and RIAA send their cease and desist letters and don't spend a dime of government money on it. No one has unbiased numbers, but I find it hard to believe that cracking down on piracy is actually helping the economy one bit. And really, isn't getting back up on our feet the top priority?
#9
Fun Size
Fun Size
Great Dusty, it's not enough you bring down the wrath of a fake internet criminal on Halforums, but now you're taken jabs at the feds. You keep this up, and Dave's going to end up getting a cavity search, and I don't mean one of the fun ones he pays for at the "spa".
#10
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Music and film are huge parts of our economy, and more and more people are stealing $20 chunks of it at a time. Think how much money that would be worth to Best Buy, Amazon, Sony, Warner, Walmart, iTunes, Mom & Pop record stores... It could be a big shot in the arm to the economy if they cut piracy in half.
#11
Seraphyn
Seraphyn
Or, the result would just be that the ones pirating will seek other free ways of obtaining said content. Which is something I'm more inclined to believe because if something is actually worth spending money on, people will usually do so. Once people have jobs, they'll have money to spend. As long as they don't have jobs, they cannot buy, so they'll pirate.
Main reason I used to pirate nearly anything was because I was poor as fuck. Now that I actually have some monies coming in I have no trouble laying down a few bucks for some entertainment.
Money can only be spent once, I think cracking down on piracy will actually cost more then it'll bring in because the money 'saved' on piracy by the consumer will simply be spent elsewhere in the economy. Disabling the piracy option will simply mean that the money spent elsewhere flows back into another category, but the overall effect on the economy as a whole is negligible.
Main reason I used to pirate nearly anything was because I was poor as fuck. Now that I actually have some monies coming in I have no trouble laying down a few bucks for some entertainment.
Money can only be spent once, I think cracking down on piracy will actually cost more then it'll bring in because the money 'saved' on piracy by the consumer will simply be spent elsewhere in the economy. Disabling the piracy option will simply mean that the money spent elsewhere flows back into another category, but the overall effect on the economy as a whole is negligible.
#12
Chibibar
Chibibar
I think it is more about cost. iTunes is making a killing in selling LEGIT download. I know Rockband is selling like hot cakes for like what? 2$ a song (well it is playable so cost a little more) and people STILL buy them. The old method of having to buy a whole CD is dying to the new age of consumers.
People are so use to "a la cart" style of purchase. I can by pieces of this and that and put it together. Sure some people STILL buy CDs when there is enough song to warrant the purchase, but some other would like to buy a single track that doesn't cost a lot of money.
that same goes with games. Distribution is expensive. Look at Steam. It is all pure digital download, and no physical media distribution (i.e. boxes + DVD/CD + manual) when they are having a sale of popular item, Steam have been know to actually ran out of CD keys for products (I can't remember on the top of my head) that should tell people something. If you make a game that is like 60$, it better be worth 60$ to the people buying it. sure you will have early adopters but the meats of it is general consumers.
You got a GOOD game (IMO) like TF2, L4D1&2, Starcraft and WoW and look how many they sold. If a game is good, then it will sell, people will talk.
People are so use to "a la cart" style of purchase. I can by pieces of this and that and put it together. Sure some people STILL buy CDs when there is enough song to warrant the purchase, but some other would like to buy a single track that doesn't cost a lot of money.
that same goes with games. Distribution is expensive. Look at Steam. It is all pure digital download, and no physical media distribution (i.e. boxes + DVD/CD + manual) when they are having a sale of popular item, Steam have been know to actually ran out of CD keys for products (I can't remember on the top of my head) that should tell people something. If you make a game that is like 60$, it better be worth 60$ to the people buying it. sure you will have early adopters but the meats of it is general consumers.
You got a GOOD game (IMO) like TF2, L4D1&2, Starcraft and WoW and look how many they sold. If a game is good, then it will sell, people will talk.
#13
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Prosecuting distributors of pirated movies, particularly ones who are linked to organized crime, seems like a perfectly good use of law enforcement, seeing as how that's illegal.
I don't see anything in the article to indicate that ICE is going to abandon all their other responsibilities.
I don't see anything in the article to indicate that ICE is going to abandon all their other responsibilities.
#14
crono1224
crono1224
It indeed helps the economy, think of the money they have to spend on court cases, all those wonderful legal fees that honestly most of these people who are downloading movies probably can't afford to pay. They tend to fight the wrong things, I think netflix and redbox has done more to combat piracy by making movies easier to get (although still cost money) than any of these crime raids will ever do.
Also to people who state the people who get caught can't complain because it is being illegal to dl movies, I hope that is your same stance on anything that is illegal including say the Arizona law (not the profiling part but the removal of illegals), and marijuana laws.
Also to people who state the people who get caught can't complain because it is being illegal to dl movies, I hope that is your same stance on anything that is illegal including say the Arizona law (not the profiling part but the removal of illegals), and marijuana laws.
#15
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
If something is illegal, and you know it and do it anyway, you run the risk of paying the consequences for it, regardless of whether you consider it "just" or not. Those are two separate points.
It's not ICE's problem whether the movie industry needs to change business models or not, that one is entirely in the lap of the MPAA.
It's not ICE's problem whether the movie industry needs to change business models or not, that one is entirely in the lap of the MPAA.
#16
Piotyr
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.
Piotyr
Did you seriously just try to equate every law in existence?It indeed helps the economy, think of the money they have to spend on court cases, all those wonderful legal fees that honestly most of these people who are downloading movies probably can't afford to pay. They tend to fight the wrong things, I think netflix and redbox has done more to combat piracy by making movies easier to get (although still cost money) than any of these crime raids will ever do.
Also to people who state the people who get caught can't complain because it is being illegal to dl movies, I hope that is your same stance on anything that is illegal including say the Arizona law (not the profiling part but the removal of illegals), and marijuana laws.
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.
#17
crono1224
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
More like I stated that it is silly for them to state 'you did something illegal you are liable', that is saying that every law is the same, and my point was if you going to say that about one you better have a consistent stance.
crono1224
Did you seriously just try to equate every law in existence?It indeed helps the economy, think of the money they have to spend on court cases, all those wonderful legal fees that honestly most of these people who are downloading movies probably can't afford to pay. They tend to fight the wrong things, I think netflix and redbox has done more to combat piracy by making movies easier to get (although still cost money) than any of these crime raids will ever do.
Also to people who state the people who get caught can't complain because it is being illegal to dl movies, I hope that is your same stance on anything that is illegal including say the Arizona law (not the profiling part but the removal of illegals), and marijuana laws.
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
More like I stated that it is silly for them to state 'you did something illegal you are liable', that is saying that every law is the same, and my point was if you going to say that about one you better have a consistent stance.
#18
Piotyr
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
More like I stated that it is silly for them to state 'you did something illegal you are liable', that is saying that every law is the same, and my point was if you going to say that about one you better have a consistent stance.[/QUOTE]
In the sense of "if you break it, you are responsible for the consequences if you get caught", yes, it's pretty cut and dry legally.
Piotyr
Did you seriously just try to equate every law in existence?It indeed helps the economy, think of the money they have to spend on court cases, all those wonderful legal fees that honestly most of these people who are downloading movies probably can't afford to pay. They tend to fight the wrong things, I think netflix and redbox has done more to combat piracy by making movies easier to get (although still cost money) than any of these crime raids will ever do.
Also to people who state the people who get caught can't complain because it is being illegal to dl movies, I hope that is your same stance on anything that is illegal including say the Arizona law (not the profiling part but the removal of illegals), and marijuana laws.
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
More like I stated that it is silly for them to state 'you did something illegal you are liable', that is saying that every law is the same, and my point was if you going to say that about one you better have a consistent stance.[/QUOTE]
In the sense of "if you break it, you are responsible for the consequences if you get caught", yes, it's pretty cut and dry legally.
#19
crono1224
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
More like I stated that it is silly for them to state 'you did something illegal you are liable', that is saying that every law is the same, and my point was if you going to say that about one you better have a consistent stance.[/QUOTE]
In the sense of "if you break it, you are responsible for the consequences if you get caught", yes, it's pretty cut and dry legally.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see how this is at all different from my original post which was complaining that people frequently say "if you did the crime you can't complain" then for a different crime state "it's a bs law".
crono1224
Did you seriously just try to equate every law in existence?It indeed helps the economy, think of the money they have to spend on court cases, all those wonderful legal fees that honestly most of these people who are downloading movies probably can't afford to pay. They tend to fight the wrong things, I think netflix and redbox has done more to combat piracy by making movies easier to get (although still cost money) than any of these crime raids will ever do.
Also to people who state the people who get caught can't complain because it is being illegal to dl movies, I hope that is your same stance on anything that is illegal including say the Arizona law (not the profiling part but the removal of illegals), and marijuana laws.
That's as big a piracy strawman as I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
More like I stated that it is silly for them to state 'you did something illegal you are liable', that is saying that every law is the same, and my point was if you going to say that about one you better have a consistent stance.[/QUOTE]
In the sense of "if you break it, you are responsible for the consequences if you get caught", yes, it's pretty cut and dry legally.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see how this is at all different from my original post which was complaining that people frequently say "if you did the crime you can't complain" then for a different crime state "it's a bs law".
#20
Piotyr
Piotyr
The thing is, it doesn't matter how bs you think the law is (and do you really think piracy is a bs law? That's a crock of shit), if you break it and you are caught, you are responsible for the consequences. You can't just use the defense of "I don't think the law should apply to me."I fail to see how this is at all different from my original post which was complaining that people frequently say "if you did the crime you can't complain" then for a different crime state "it's a bs law".
#21
crono1224
What the deuce are you talking about, my rant is about people who complain about bs laws and not having to follow them, but then say "who cares they did the crime, etc etc". I don't think it is a bs law, and my point was simply that rather than way stricter enforcement easier accessibility to the product will help cut piracy by itself. Kinda the same way that DRM has done more harm than good (though my solutions isn't the same).
crono1224
The thing is, it doesn't matter how bs you think the law is (and do you really think piracy is a bs law? That's a crock of shit), if you break it and you are caught, you are responsible for the consequences. You can't just use the defense of "I don't think the law should apply to me."[/QUOTE]I fail to see how this is at all different from my original post which was complaining that people frequently say "if you did the crime you can't complain" then for a different crime state "it's a bs law".
What the deuce are you talking about, my rant is about people who complain about bs laws and not having to follow them, but then say "who cares they did the crime, etc etc". I don't think it is a bs law, and my point was simply that rather than way stricter enforcement easier accessibility to the product will help cut piracy by itself. Kinda the same way that DRM has done more harm than good (though my solutions isn't the same).
#22
Piotyr
What the deuce are you talking about, my rant is about people who complain about bs laws and not having to follow them, but then say "who cares they did the crime, etc etc". I don't think it is a bs law, and my point was simply that rather than way stricter enforcement easier accessibility to the product will help cut piracy by itself. Kinda the same way that DRM has done more harm than good (though my solutions isn't the same).[/QUOTE]
However, it's easy to enforce piracy laws. Easy to see where files are being transferred for 90% of the piracy, easy to find the IP of the offender, and easy to prosecute. Doesn't take near the manpower of most of law enforcement, so it's really low-risk, high reward from a legal point of view. We get piracy notices and federal subpoenas all the time regarding file sharing and hosting (there's just no way to effectively block it on campus, since even if you close every port aside from HTTP and HTTPS, you can still do file transfers via those ports), and many of the kids are shocked that anyone could find them, and I've heard every bullshit excuse and justification in the book for it. Whatever the justification, it's an easy target.
Piotyr
The thing is, it doesn't matter how bs you think the law is (and do you really think piracy is a bs law? That's a crock of shit), if you break it and you are caught, you are responsible for the consequences. You can't just use the defense of "I don't think the law should apply to me."[/QUOTE]I fail to see how this is at all different from my original post which was complaining that people frequently say "if you did the crime you can't complain" then for a different crime state "it's a bs law".
What the deuce are you talking about, my rant is about people who complain about bs laws and not having to follow them, but then say "who cares they did the crime, etc etc". I don't think it is a bs law, and my point was simply that rather than way stricter enforcement easier accessibility to the product will help cut piracy by itself. Kinda the same way that DRM has done more harm than good (though my solutions isn't the same).[/QUOTE]
However, it's easy to enforce piracy laws. Easy to see where files are being transferred for 90% of the piracy, easy to find the IP of the offender, and easy to prosecute. Doesn't take near the manpower of most of law enforcement, so it's really low-risk, high reward from a legal point of view. We get piracy notices and federal subpoenas all the time regarding file sharing and hosting (there's just no way to effectively block it on campus, since even if you close every port aside from HTTP and HTTPS, you can still do file transfers via those ports), and many of the kids are shocked that anyone could find them, and I've heard every bullshit excuse and justification in the book for it. Whatever the justification, it's an easy target.
#23
crono1224
What the deuce are you talking about, my rant is about people who complain about bs laws and not having to follow them, but then say "who cares they did the crime, etc etc". I don't think it is a bs law, and my point was simply that rather than way stricter enforcement easier accessibility to the product will help cut piracy by itself. Kinda the same way that DRM has done more harm than good (though my solutions isn't the same).[/QUOTE]
However, it's easy to enforce piracy laws. Easy to see where files are being transferred for 90% of the piracy, easy to find the IP of the offender, and easy to prosecute. Doesn't take near the manpower of most of law enforcement, so it's really low-risk, high reward from a legal point of view. We get piracy notices and federal subpoenas all the time regarding file sharing and hosting (there's just no way to effectively block it on campus, since even if you close every port aside from HTTP and HTTPS, you can still do file transfers via those ports), and many of the kids are shocked that anyone could find them, and I've heard every bullshit excuse and justification in the book for it. Whatever the justification, it's an easy target.[/QUOTE]
Fine, but I'm not anti these laws are even enforcement. My point was there are better ways to combat it I believe.
Second, what about private trackers, how hard is it to record shows or movies and post them to private trackers. Sure maybe even a mass majority of people don't use it, there are still plenty of ways to make it hard to enforce. Also what about illegal dvd sales on street corners, or overseas? I'm not saying that enforcing this is bad, I am stating that making the product more accessible will do more good than harm, cause so what if you catch a thousand people, either you gotta sue them and go through court battles and all that entails or you simply stop them from DLing for a time being. You aren't actually increasing revenue for yourself.
crono1224
The thing is, it doesn't matter how bs you think the law is (and do you really think piracy is a bs law? That's a crock of shit), if you break it and you are caught, you are responsible for the consequences. You can't just use the defense of "I don't think the law should apply to me."[/QUOTE]I fail to see how this is at all different from my original post which was complaining that people frequently say "if you did the crime you can't complain" then for a different crime state "it's a bs law".
What the deuce are you talking about, my rant is about people who complain about bs laws and not having to follow them, but then say "who cares they did the crime, etc etc". I don't think it is a bs law, and my point was simply that rather than way stricter enforcement easier accessibility to the product will help cut piracy by itself. Kinda the same way that DRM has done more harm than good (though my solutions isn't the same).[/QUOTE]
However, it's easy to enforce piracy laws. Easy to see where files are being transferred for 90% of the piracy, easy to find the IP of the offender, and easy to prosecute. Doesn't take near the manpower of most of law enforcement, so it's really low-risk, high reward from a legal point of view. We get piracy notices and federal subpoenas all the time regarding file sharing and hosting (there's just no way to effectively block it on campus, since even if you close every port aside from HTTP and HTTPS, you can still do file transfers via those ports), and many of the kids are shocked that anyone could find them, and I've heard every bullshit excuse and justification in the book for it. Whatever the justification, it's an easy target.[/QUOTE]
Fine, but I'm not anti these laws are even enforcement. My point was there are better ways to combat it I believe.
Second, what about private trackers, how hard is it to record shows or movies and post them to private trackers. Sure maybe even a mass majority of people don't use it, there are still plenty of ways to make it hard to enforce. Also what about illegal dvd sales on street corners, or overseas? I'm not saying that enforcing this is bad, I am stating that making the product more accessible will do more good than harm, cause so what if you catch a thousand people, either you gotta sue them and go through court battles and all that entails or you simply stop them from DLing for a time being. You aren't actually increasing revenue for yourself.
#24
Piotyr
And the mere fact that the "Humble Indie Bundle" was torrented completely destroys the argument that if the stuff is easier to come by that pirating will disappear or significantly lessen. Prosecution is necessary, easy, and quick.
Piotyr
When done electronically, there's always a trail. Some methods make the trail longer, but that kind of thing is in the vast minority. The fines for violation of the law are hefty if you try to fight it to the end, and there's almost always a more moderate settlement fee. The revenue is easy to come by.Second, what about private trackers, how hard is it to record shows or movies and post them to private trackers. Sure maybe even a mass majority of people don't use it, there are still plenty of ways to make it hard to enforce. Also what about illegal dvd sales on street corners, or overseas? I'm not saying that enforcing this is bad, I am stating that making the product more accessible will do more good than harm, cause so what if you catch a thousand people, either you gotta sue them and go through court battles and all that entails or you simply stop them from DLing for a time being. You aren't actually increasing revenue for yourself.
And the mere fact that the "Humble Indie Bundle" was torrented completely destroys the argument that if the stuff is easier to come by that pirating will disappear or significantly lessen. Prosecution is necessary, easy, and quick.
#25
crono1224
And the mere fact that the "Humble Indie Bundle" was torrented completely destroys the argument that if the stuff is easier to come by that pirating will disappear or significantly lessen. Prosecution is necessary, easy, and quick.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that isn't evident of anything unless you have stats to back that up. Granted I don't have stats or linkage to back up mine, but I think the fact that easier to come by reduces at least some of the piracy that would be based on perhaps not being available to certain places (ie countries) or hard to come by, ie have to be shipped if you live in sticks ville or have to drive 10 miles to the closest rental place.
Also I still doubt that it is as cheap and easy, you need first to subpoena ip address from ISPs, this is after you have to put out the fake torrents and watch who downloads it. Still requires IT people time and money, and regardless of how easy or cheap it is, making the product better still increases sales which is better revenue. For instance hulu helps to make it easier to watch recent tv shows and they still get advertising money from it. Or sites that put there content directly onto their site, still get revenue from advertising and get people to visit their sites. Renewing customers because of good websites or delivery of product is more likely to keep them repeating to buy it or watch it.
crono1224
When done electronically, there's always a trail. Some methods make the trail longer, but that kind of thing is in the vast minority. The fines for violation of the law are hefty if you try to fight it to the end, and there's almost always a more moderate settlement fee. The revenue is easy to come by.Second, what about private trackers, how hard is it to record shows or movies and post them to private trackers. Sure maybe even a mass majority of people don't use it, there are still plenty of ways to make it hard to enforce. Also what about illegal dvd sales on street corners, or overseas? I'm not saying that enforcing this is bad, I am stating that making the product more accessible will do more good than harm, cause so what if you catch a thousand people, either you gotta sue them and go through court battles and all that entails or you simply stop them from DLing for a time being. You aren't actually increasing revenue for yourself.
And the mere fact that the "Humble Indie Bundle" was torrented completely destroys the argument that if the stuff is easier to come by that pirating will disappear or significantly lessen. Prosecution is necessary, easy, and quick.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that isn't evident of anything unless you have stats to back that up. Granted I don't have stats or linkage to back up mine, but I think the fact that easier to come by reduces at least some of the piracy that would be based on perhaps not being available to certain places (ie countries) or hard to come by, ie have to be shipped if you live in sticks ville or have to drive 10 miles to the closest rental place.
Also I still doubt that it is as cheap and easy, you need first to subpoena ip address from ISPs, this is after you have to put out the fake torrents and watch who downloads it. Still requires IT people time and money, and regardless of how easy or cheap it is, making the product better still increases sales which is better revenue. For instance hulu helps to make it easier to watch recent tv shows and they still get advertising money from it. Or sites that put there content directly onto their site, still get revenue from advertising and get people to visit their sites. Renewing customers because of good websites or delivery of product is more likely to keep them repeating to buy it or watch it.
#26
Piotyr
And the mere fact that the "Humble Indie Bundle" was torrented completely destroys the argument that if the stuff is easier to come by that pirating will disappear or significantly lessen. Prosecution is necessary, easy, and quick.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that isn't evident of anything unless you have stats to back that up. Granted I don't have stats or linkage to back up mine, but I think the fact that easier to come by reduces at least some of the piracy that would be based on perhaps not being available to certain places (ie countries) or hard to come by, ie have to be shipped if you live in sticks ville or have to drive 10 miles to the closest rental place.
Also I still doubt that it is as cheap and easy, you need first to subpoena ip address from ISPs, this is after you have to put out the fake torrents and watch who downloads it. Still requires IT people time and money, and regardless of how easy or cheap it is, making the product better still increases sales which is better revenue. For instance hulu helps to make it easier to watch recent tv shows and they still get advertising money from it. Or sites that put there content directly onto their site, still get revenue from advertising and get people to visit their sites. Renewing customers because of good websites or delivery of product is more likely to keep them repeating to buy it or watch it.[/QUOTE]
Don't just choose to be ignorant. Here is a link to the torrent download numbers on the Humble Indie Bundle - a project with zero DRM that cost .01 to get legitimately and download from the website.
As far as prosecution, the government isn't prosecuting downloaders, it's prosecuting hosts. Of course, if you use two-way torrenting, you are both, but it's not even as complicated as putting out fake torrents. Any user can do a quick internet search and find torrent sites and any decent government IT person can find 90% of the hosts incredibly easily.
You keep saying you aren't trying to justify it, but you keep trying to justify it. Your first post compared it to illegal immigration and marijuana laws, somehow implying if you say piracy laws are justified you have to say those are, which is a weird strawman. You then persisted to say that if people made the product easier to get legally, then piracy wouldn't be a problem. The Humble Indie Bundle incident refutes that completely. You can choose to put your head in the sand and continue to weakly try to justify it, or you can just understand that the minimal time and effort required to deal with and enforce piracy laws is well worth it on all fronts. If you get caught, you deserve to face the consequences.
Piotyr
When done electronically, there's always a trail. Some methods make the trail longer, but that kind of thing is in the vast minority. The fines for violation of the law are hefty if you try to fight it to the end, and there's almost always a more moderate settlement fee. The revenue is easy to come by.Second, what about private trackers, how hard is it to record shows or movies and post them to private trackers. Sure maybe even a mass majority of people don't use it, there are still plenty of ways to make it hard to enforce. Also what about illegal dvd sales on street corners, or overseas? I'm not saying that enforcing this is bad, I am stating that making the product more accessible will do more good than harm, cause so what if you catch a thousand people, either you gotta sue them and go through court battles and all that entails or you simply stop them from DLing for a time being. You aren't actually increasing revenue for yourself.
And the mere fact that the "Humble Indie Bundle" was torrented completely destroys the argument that if the stuff is easier to come by that pirating will disappear or significantly lessen. Prosecution is necessary, easy, and quick.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that isn't evident of anything unless you have stats to back that up. Granted I don't have stats or linkage to back up mine, but I think the fact that easier to come by reduces at least some of the piracy that would be based on perhaps not being available to certain places (ie countries) or hard to come by, ie have to be shipped if you live in sticks ville or have to drive 10 miles to the closest rental place.
Also I still doubt that it is as cheap and easy, you need first to subpoena ip address from ISPs, this is after you have to put out the fake torrents and watch who downloads it. Still requires IT people time and money, and regardless of how easy or cheap it is, making the product better still increases sales which is better revenue. For instance hulu helps to make it easier to watch recent tv shows and they still get advertising money from it. Or sites that put there content directly onto their site, still get revenue from advertising and get people to visit their sites. Renewing customers because of good websites or delivery of product is more likely to keep them repeating to buy it or watch it.[/QUOTE]
Don't just choose to be ignorant. Here is a link to the torrent download numbers on the Humble Indie Bundle - a project with zero DRM that cost .01 to get legitimately and download from the website.
As far as prosecution, the government isn't prosecuting downloaders, it's prosecuting hosts. Of course, if you use two-way torrenting, you are both, but it's not even as complicated as putting out fake torrents. Any user can do a quick internet search and find torrent sites and any decent government IT person can find 90% of the hosts incredibly easily.
You keep saying you aren't trying to justify it, but you keep trying to justify it. Your first post compared it to illegal immigration and marijuana laws, somehow implying if you say piracy laws are justified you have to say those are, which is a weird strawman. You then persisted to say that if people made the product easier to get legally, then piracy wouldn't be a problem. The Humble Indie Bundle incident refutes that completely. You can choose to put your head in the sand and continue to weakly try to justify it, or you can just understand that the minimal time and effort required to deal with and enforce piracy laws is well worth it on all fronts. If you get caught, you deserve to face the consequences.
#27
AshburnerX
Not saying your wrong or that there aren't people who will steal any time they can get away with it, because we all know there are, but there ARE other reasons for piracy than "to get it for free".
AshburnerX
You know, your arguement loses a lot of bite when the article you link to gives several, legitimate reasons why the bundle may have been pirated. It loses even more when the people who were stolen from clearly aren't that upset (they only ask the pirates to torrent instead of eatting up their bandwidth). In fact, they admit that doing anything to prevent the piracy would go against the spirit of the whole project, which would make the whole experiment pointless.Don't just choose to be ignorant. Here is a link to the torrent download numbers on the Humble Indie Bundle - a project with zero DRM that cost .01 to get legitimately and download from the website.
Not saying your wrong or that there aren't people who will steal any time they can get away with it, because we all know there are, but there ARE other reasons for piracy than "to get it for free".
#28
crono1224
Not saying your wrong or that there aren't people who will steal any time they can get away with it, because we all know there are, but there ARE other reasons for piracy than "to get it for free".[/QUOTE]
I going to have to agree with you, the article gives mutiple reasons, some backing mine which is ease of use. If you don't live in a country that provides the method of payments then you are SOL (which isn't to say i condone downloading but still). Second is and god be it rare, not everyone uses banks or credit cards. Third since its a name your own price it is in theory possible someone donated more than a penny and decided since they gave more than the min they could give it to as many friends as are a multiple of a penny.
Also for them going against host I think they more go for pirate bay, isohunt those places rather than individual seeders since without websites like those the ease of finding trackers would be greatly diminished.
crono1224
You know, your arguement loses a lot of bite when the article you link to gives several, legitimate reasons why the bundle may have been pirated. It loses even more when the people who were stolen from clearly aren't that upset (they only ask the pirates to torrent instead of eatting up their bandwidth). In fact, they admit that doing anything to prevent the piracy would go against the spirit of the whole project, which would make the whole experiment pointless.Don't just choose to be ignorant. Here is a link to the torrent download numbers on the Humble Indie Bundle - a project with zero DRM that cost .01 to get legitimately and download from the website.
Not saying your wrong or that there aren't people who will steal any time they can get away with it, because we all know there are, but there ARE other reasons for piracy than "to get it for free".[/QUOTE]
I going to have to agree with you, the article gives mutiple reasons, some backing mine which is ease of use. If you don't live in a country that provides the method of payments then you are SOL (which isn't to say i condone downloading but still). Second is and god be it rare, not everyone uses banks or credit cards. Third since its a name your own price it is in theory possible someone donated more than a penny and decided since they gave more than the min they could give it to as many friends as are a multiple of a penny.
Also for them going against host I think they more go for pirate bay, isohunt those places rather than individual seeders since without websites like those the ease of finding trackers would be greatly diminished.