France convicts Scientology

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Dave

Staff member
Organized fraud is the charge.

A French court fined the Church of Scientology on Tuesday for defrauding vulnerable followers, but officials voiced regret that a recent change in the law prevented France from banning it outright. Scientology's Celebrity Centre and its bookshop in Paris, the two branches of its French operations, were ordered to pay 600,000 euros (900,000 dollars) in fines for preying financially on its followers in the 1990s.

Alain Rosenberg, the French leader of a movement best known for its Hollywood followers Tom Cruise and John Travolta, was handed a two-year suspended jail sentence and fined 30,000 euros on the same charge.

\"Religious freedom is in danger in this country,\" said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to \"recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology.\"

A lawyer for Scientology's French operations, Patrick Maisonneuve, said he would appeal, but added that \"the most important thing is that this association can continue to exercise its activities.\"

Paris prosecutors originally asked the court to order the Celebrity Centre and bookshop to be dismantled.

But last month the French courts were alerted to a little-noticed legal change voted in by parliament in May -- the month the trial opened -- which bars judges from dissolving an organisation convicted of fraud.

Although the change has since been dropped, this was not retrospective and thus Scientology was protected from an outright ban in the ongoing case, forcing the court to downgrade the sentence.

\"A ban would run the risk of its activities being pursued outside of any legal framework,\" said judge Sophie-Helene Chateau, suggesting that the group may have gone underground.

Founded in 1954 by US science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, the Church of Scientology is recognised as a religion in the United States and claims a worldwide membership of 12 million.

But European officials in Germany, Greece, Russia and elsewhere have accused the movement of tricking its members out of large sums, and in 1995 it was classified as a cult in France, where it claims 45,000 followers.

Scientology is in the dock in Paris for the second time in six years, and French courts have prosecuted several individual Scientologists since 1978.

The latest case follows a complaint from two women, one of whom says she was manipulated into handing over 20,000 euros for costly products, including an \"electrometer\" to measure mental energy.

She was approached in the street by a Scientologist in 1998 who offered a free personality test, at a time when she was feeling psychologically fragile.

After being told her test results were poor, the woman was sold a series of life-improvement courses, vitamins and other products she could ill afford, landing her in debt.

A second plaintiff alleges she was forced by her Scientologist employer to undergo testing and enroll in courses in 1998. When she refused she was fired.
The head of France's interministerial body on cults, Georges Fenech, said he was sorry judges were prevented from tougher action.

\"I strongly regret that the law was changed discreetly during the trial, just before the trial, without anyone knowing,\" he told France 24 television.
\"But I think the provision has been reinstated by parliament, so there could be a ban in future if they offend again.\"

Critics of Scientology have accused Scientologists of \"infiltrating\" the National Assembly to lobby for the legal change.

Outraged by the allegation, French Scientology's lawyer had asked the court to reopen the case to clear her clients of suspicion.

Wikipedia blocked the Church of Scientology from editing entries at the communally-crafted online encyclopedia earlier this year due to an unrelenting battle over the group's image.
 
"Religious freedom is in danger in this country," said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to "recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology."
WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States.
 
My econ professor used church as an example of a public good (good in the economic sense, not as in "it's a good thing") and said that you can't run a church like a business.

I quickly pointed out scientology to refute that.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

"Religious freedom is in danger in this country," said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to "recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology."
WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States.
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?

Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.
 

Dave

Staff member
\"Religious freedom is in danger in this country,\" said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to \"recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology.\"
WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States.
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?

Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/QUOTE]

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.

If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.
 
"Religious freedom is in danger in this country," said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to "recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology."
WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States.
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?

Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/QUOTE]

Because we have Freedom of Religion, and I don't recall anyone prominent In this country calling it Dangerous.
 
Because we have Freedom of Religion, and I don't recall anyone prominent In this country calling it Dangerous.
QFT. What's next? Are they going to go after the Muslims?

I may not like or agree with Scientology, but if people want to give their money to them, who cares. People throw their money away on the lottery everyday. Isn't that fraud? Isn't that preying on false hopes, and desperateness?
 

Dave

Staff member
That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.

Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
 
\"Religious freedom is in danger in this country,\" said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to \"recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology.\"
WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States.
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?

Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/quote]

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.

If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna have to call bullshit there Dave. Your goatee isn't nearly awesome enough to be one of his kids.
 
That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.

Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.

The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.

If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.[/QUOTE]
Awesome. Not that you need more convincing, but see, I figure the Church of Psychohistory should easily topple Scientology. I mean, I'm basing it off a good sci-fi novelist.
 

Dave

Staff member
That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.

Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.

The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/QUOTE]

When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?

Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.
 
That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.

Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.

The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/quote]

When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?

Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.[/QUOTE]

One could say that the major religions do the same thing... just putting that out there.
 

Dave

Staff member
That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.

Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.

The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/quote]

When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?

Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.[/quote]

One could say that the major religions do the same thing... just putting that out there.[/QUOTE]

I have, too. But Scientology is even more nefarious in their means than the more mainstream religions.

And Anton and I look a lot alike and we have the same mannerisms and vocal patterning. I was adopted and my bio father was born on the same day as him. Maybe a big coincidence, but it makes for an excellent story.
 

Dave

Staff member
And a story you should keep telling. I was just messing with you.
I've thought several times about contacting his kids and going for a DNA test. Truthfully I don't know whether I'd be happy or sad regardless of the result.
 

Green_Lantern

Staff member
Question, why should any religion have tax exemption? Really, that just bugs me, okay, they believe in the boggie sky-santa that causes hurricanes, why should this means that they shouldn't pay like everybody does?
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

They have tax exempt status because they, historically and now, provide a lot of charity. Other charities are tax exempt, too.
 
S

Soliloquy

Question, why should any religion have tax exemption? Really, that just bugs me, okay, they believe in the boggie sky-santa that causes hurricanes, why should this means that they shouldn't pay like everybody does?
Lots of non-profit organizations are tax exempt, not just churches.

edit: ninja'd.
 
S

Soliloquy

Yeah, most people defending Scientology tend to forget that it actually is an evil organization bent on world domination.
 
I get that Scientology is behind some bad stuff. Prosecute them for that. Screwing weak-minded people out of their money has been going on since the invention of money or traded goods.

If they murdered people, prove it. Otherwise, it's conjecture and conspiracy theories.

It sounds like the Free Mason stuff.

I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
 
I get that Scientology is behind some bad stuff. Prosecute them for that. Screwing weak-minded people out of their money has been going on since the invention of money or traded goods.

If they murdered people, prove it. Otherwise, it's conjecture and conspiracy theories.

It sounds like the Free Mason stuff.

I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
If you want evidence badly enough, I'd recommend joining your local Scientology church to observe their inner workings for yourself.
 
I dated and lived with a scientologist for 5 years. i think i can speak with some authority on the subject.

"Scientology is quite likely the most ruthless, the most classically terroristic, the most litigious and the most lucrative cult the country has ever seen. No cult extracts more money from its members."
-- Cynthia Kisser, The Cult Awareness Network.

Note, CAN was later sued into oblivion and taken over by Scientology. I wouldn't contact them now for any information on the CoS
 
I get that Scientology is behind some bad stuff. Prosecute them for that. Screwing weak-minded people out of their money has been going on since the invention of money or traded goods.

If they murdered people, prove it. Otherwise, it's conjecture and conspiracy theories.

It sounds like the Free Mason stuff.

I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
If you want evidence badly enough, I'd recommend joining your local Scientology church to observe their inner workings for yourself.[/QUOTE]

Have you done this? Have any of you done this?

You are all believing youtube videos? Do you all believe the Zeitgeist video too?

I am a Christian. I fear actions against the religion will lead to a future attack on my religion. Again, I say, if the individuals of the religion are committing crimes, convict them, not the religion.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

Or just look at the court documents of the trial in France where the organization itself was found guilty of fraud.
 
I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
Isn't that what just happened?[/quote]

No, they fined the church. Go after the individuals committing crimes, and I will support that.

Just like their are terrorist cells of folks of the Muslim faith. They need to be brought to justice, not the religion. Should we fine Islam for 911?

EDIT:
I can see why my posts would be seen as a defense of Scientology. Believe me, I believe they are a cult, and are up to no good. I think they should go down, but there needs to be a way to do this that can't be transferred to another religion (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc).
 
S

Soliloquy

I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
Isn't that what just happened?[/QUOTE]

No, they fined the church. Go after the individuals committing crimes, and I will support that.

Just like their are terrorist cells of folks of the Muslim faith. They need to be brought to justice, not the religion. Should we fine Islam for 911?[/QUOTE]

We're talking an organization here, though. not a philosophy.

Do you think that organizations should be exempt from criminal charges? I guess that's a legitimate viewpoint, but it's not the way the world works at present.
 
Have you done this? Have any of you done this?
I dated and lived with a scientologist for 5 years. i think i can speak with some authority on the subject.
Scientologists don't consider what they do a religion. It's a "shore story"..a lie told to outsiders. Scientology considers what they do a technology. An applied philosophy. A practical practice that will eventually grant them powers. It's "Tech".

L. Ron Hubbard himself said Scientology wasn't a religion in his book Creation of Human Ability (which is considered "Source" and therefore infallible). Scientology was originally an applied philosophy that converted to a religion in one day via a policy bulletin put forth. Policy Bulletins are also considered "Source" (straight from Hubbard) and therefore infallible;

Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter
(HCOPL) 29 Oct. 1962, "Religion"

"Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization
basis throughout the world.
This will not upset in any way the
usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for
accountants and solicitors."
In the man's own words, it was merely a tax matter. A way to use Freedom of Religion as a shield against governement, and later, as a sword against critics.

This is what the Scientologists I have personally known have felt and believed.

Organizations can be corrupt, evil, or destructive. We have plenty of examples: The mafia, the nazi party (whoops, godwin'd!), etc. At some point, you can look at an organization and call the thing as a whole bad, and not just the misguided actions of a few bad apples.
 
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