Fucking World of Warcraft!

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I've had a lot of fun in WoW. and a lot of it was not at the Level Cap. Last year I raised up a lvl 19 hunter to pvp with. It was like having a kit car to race in. Anyone can grind out 19 lvls get some blues and greens from dungeons and quests, buy some enhancements/enchantments, and go kick arse. Just too bad Blizzard decided to kill off the twink PvP combat.

After I had more badges than I could stand I got enough gear to outfit 2 alts and start leveling them. There is a new dungeon instance finder. It is like PvP has been for a while. You queue up and go out to trade skill, you get called into the dungeon with 4 others from up to 4 realms I think, and you get a blue at the end of each dungeon. Then when you are done you are dropped back to your previous spot. When you get in with people that do their homework, it is a ton of fun. Go blowing through dungeons that were so dangerous back in vanilla with people that know their class and role with very few wipes. The problem lies with some folks refuse to play their role correctly, those tend not to be fun. but the surrounding drama does get your heart beating...

I am now playing 3 different alts and leveling fairly rapidly, and having fun.
 
First thing, learn how to turn off the Trade Channel until you are a bit higher level. I usually mute everything but the General chat and Guild/Friend.
This is good advice. People can be... interesting... when they know they have a zone wide audience to annoy. We have a term in the game called "Barrens Chat" because the zone The Barrens was notorious for having silly, inane, and often trollish discussions back in the old days.

My biggest advice is to find a leveling guild to join with. Most server have them, and they exist mostly for for new players to have others to level with. You can also queue for dungeons starting at around Level 15, which will let you try out the game from another angle, the dungeon run. Be aware though that a few random people might not be nice in dungeons because they expect to much out of you, don't take them seriously, just leave the group and find a better one if someone tries to give you a hard time.
 

Necronic

Staff member
That's because in EvE we respect player skill above everything, whereas in WoWtypes people only respect "paying your dues" / playing ridiculous hours to grind the level cap.
Once again you are generalizing. WoW has it's own skilled players, many of which take on challenges at a gear level much lower then required. You have the old school days when rogues were able to kill people with newbie daggers. We have people that do show skill, and they do get some respect. It is not always about "paying your dues", but sometimes that is important too.[/quote]

Well of course I am generalizing. I am talking about the game as a whole.There are exceptions to every rule. But your example is simply metagaming again. If I have to intentionally handicap myself to make things interesting then the game isn't designed well. 4X games have a real problem with this. Most of them increase difficulty by just giving the CPU more money and you less. And in the words of my old programming proffesor "That's duct tape, that's bad" . Galactic Civilization has a difficulty slider focused around clock time the AI gets. That is good design.

A good game should reward skill instead of time invested. I think that's hard to argue against.
It is more then that. Time is part of it, skill is part of it. A game with all skill but no content to base it is stagnate. A game with all time investment but no skill is basically autopilot. A mix is desired, something were one can put in the time to build himself up, but sooner or later he is going to reach a threshold. When he does, others will naturally catch up to him. That is how I prefer my game, it is about balance.
We'll agree to disagree. Having to invest time, not to get good at something, but as the only way to advance is bad. It's lazy design. If someone jumps into a L4D match should they have better weapons because they play more (see modern warfare....) Should a chess player get more pieces since he has been playing longer? A poker player? What about a basketball player? Maybe after X years he doesn't even have to do the free throws anymore.

There's no bitterness. This is about giving. I am like the shaman that comes into your mud huts and shows you how to make fire. Honest to god, I love nothing more than introducing a good game to someone and seeing them love it.
The issue is "good game" is subjective. You feel like bringing EvE into this means you are some sort of god, but in truth you are just like me. You are a gamer sitting around and enjoying a game. You didn't enjoy another game. To imply EvE is "superior" to WoW is saying Apples are ten times better then Bananas, it means nothing.
Ok, the concept of a good game may be subjective, but the concept of a bad game rarely is. Like, we may have different opinions about what makes a girl pretty, but I think we can all agree that the girl with the pubic hair mustache isn't

Also, consensus is a classical logical fallacy (although so are all my ad hominems, well technically they are not fallacies just crappy rhetoric). Are you going to tell me that Lineage 2 is a good game simply because a bunch of people play it? Or that American Idol is a good show because lots of people watch it? And its not that they are sheeple. It's that they just haven't been "shown the way". That's what I am trying to do here, prostyletize (sp?). If only i could use old styles of burning heretics to get my point across,
There you go with the "god complex" again, it really does not suite you.
As for Lingeage 2 and American Idol. I don't like them, but you know what I do? I don't watch them. I don't walk up to my mother and say "American Idol is horrible, you are rotting your brain!" because that is not my place nor correct, because as much as I find the show putrid, the fact people enjoy it is all that matters. People enjoy different things, I hate Twilight, but I don't force that opinion on my friends that enjoy Twilight.

That, really, is your issue, you have to "hate" on WoW in order to make yourself feel better about your own choice in game. It is the classic case, "Well if I don't like it obviously I am right and everyone else is stupid!" That, my friend, is much more a waste of time then anything you can do in WoW.
First off its not a god complex, its a prophet complex thank you very much. I'm trying to take yall to the promised land damnit.

Anyways, you're telling me you have never talked trash about a show, game, or webcomic on this sight before? You have no opinions on things that you display openly?

I do. I have a problem with inferior products being accepted because "everyone has a right to be right." Fuck that. Homeopathy isn't a real medicine, American Idol isn't good television, and Console FPS tournaments are the Special Olympics of gaming. Of course people can think what they want, but I will challenge them on their ideas. Hell, maybe I will learn something. I honestly generally argue with the intent, not to be correct, but to find a higher truth. Now, in the case of this argument I am being a little more aggressive, but in honesty some of the posts I have seen have pointed out some things that I will agree to (see at the end)


One of the things that makes me the massive hater that I am is an obsession with game design. I don't care dick about graphics or story or any of that shit. Just flat out design. This whole concept of "Gear Reset" as being the only way to level the playing field is such a huge indication of bad design that it appalls me other people don't see it. The necessity of this indicates a single vector of progress. If the game had more than 1 type of progress (and to be fair it does have like 1.1 with pvp rewards) then this would never be an issue.
You are obsessed, I will give you that, but it is not with game design. Game design is a free flowing ideal, it is all about taking a base set of ideas and mechanics and making them enjoyable. You are not obsessed with game design, you are obsessed with your ego. You make it very clear that you give yourself and your outlook more credit then it is actually worth. The gear reset is not bad design in the system in which it is utilized, and is actually a "preferred" design. Can there be other methods, other ideals? Yes, that is the nature of design.

You being "appalled" that no one else sees it just goes to show you are off in your own little world of self-justification.
So there's that "everyone has a right to be right" thing again. You defend the game but offer no specific responses to the very specific charges I am levelling here (with lance and banner flowing, I shall slay the wicked dragon!) Saying it is a "preferred" design doesn't explain why. I don't want to "argue about the arguement" too much, but please make a point here.


Say, for instance, if there was a remotely stable economy with a remotely well implemented crafting system. If that was the case then people who raid and people who pvp would have to rely on people who craft. We could get more fine tuned and say that the people who craft would have to rely on people who gather, or on other people who craft. These interdependicies create an MMO ecosystem of sorts that would maintain itself without constant fiddling at the level blizzard does.
Disagree. We have gone over this many times in the past in the community, and we find that the crafting dynamics are fine the way they are because they allow great bonuses while not adding to many layers to a game that already has a lot of options (ones, obviously, you refuse to even see, but I digress). Crafting is viable, and WoW has such a large economy of goods and trades that people have written books on it.
Now, this may be something that has changed since I have been away, but what is the historical price of any item? They plummet massively over time right? Arcane crystals cost something like, what, 30g when I hit 60, when I quit they sold for maybe 10. Also, at 60 there were only a handful of craftable weapons of any real interest. Arcanite Reaper was the only one I could remember, and that one plummetted in value and useability really fast (even before the level cap increase)

So.....something yall asked for is actually indicative of terrible design. This is why I must preach the faith. I don't actually care if its EvE you come to, and I don't really care if its WoW that you leave. My real issue is that people need to start seeing these elements of bad design for what they are. That acceptance just leads to lazier and lazier design that I really do think will end up with us all playing Heroin Hero if we aren't careful.
Get over yourself. You speak of terrible design, but I have to ask. What is so well designed about EvE? Honestly, when I tried it out long ago, before I even played WoW for comparison, I just didn't like the game. It felt clunky, overcomplicated in some areas, and way to simple in others. It was, to me, a horrible design. Now, this is where the idea of "taste" and "perception" come into play. You preach a gospel that is false, because by limiting what is "good" and "bad" design to your own taste, you are limiting design in general. You, my friend, are much more of a ruination then anything I can see some out of "Heroin Hero".

People, over time, shift and flow. Games that were once best sellers now barely make the figures anticipated, because tastes change, people change, and thus why new designs have to be made.
Well I'm pretty sure I already covered what the good design elements of EvE are. And understand, there are TONS of games I think are great. From FPSs (L4D, MW2, HL) to RPGs (Baldurs Gate, Obivion (modded of course)) to RTSs (DoW, CoH), 4X(Civ series, Gal Civ) to Tactical Turn Based Strategies (Fallout1&2, Jagged Alliance 2) to whatever. But I can't help but stare down flaws that exist when they do. Like, I was playing Medieval 2 recently, which I was really excited about because it mixed 4X with RTS in a way I thought would be awesome. And it was. At first. Until I realized that the AI was astonishingly pathetic. And I stopped playing it. Because I hold games to a standard, and not even a high one.

Hey man, jerking off is fun too but I still think its better to go out and get laid. EvE isn't just fun, its challenging, and there is a big difference. Having to invest X amount of time to succeed is not challenging, having to design a MS Access database to be competitive in the market is. The reward you get from accomplishing something that is both fun and challenging is far greater than something that is just fun.
Disagree. If I wanted something fun AND challenging, I would go outside and play sports. A game, at the core, is designed to bring fun. Challenge is added on to that, and frankly, you underestimate how challenging WoW can be if you actually cared enough to try. Is it as challenging as EvE? No, does the WoW community want it to be as challenging as EvE? No, because otherwise we would play EvE.

I don't wish to continue to speak with you though if all that you answer this with is more "self-righteous" banter that adds nothing to the discussion other then further degredation, so if that is the case, good day.
[/quote]

A game, at its core, is to challenge you mentally and/or physically. Every historic game of any significance has this in it. Chess. Poker. Soccer. That Aztec game where you put the ball through the hoop or you get decapitated (that one was mentally challenging, ba dum pshhh!) Bacci. Even fucking shuffleboard. Something that is done just for fun but doesn't present any challenge whatsoever? That sounds like either Kick the Can or rubbing one out (although if you take sleeping pills and see if you can finish before you fall asleep that does qualify as a game to me. Took that one from seth rogan)

And to the self righteous thing. I'll admit, I'm being pretty harsh, but I am giving reasoning behind everything I have said. Maybe my reasoning is wrong, seriously maybe it is. But I am making an attempt to base my arguments in reason. "Leonitus, use your reason!" May not be the best quote to use here....

also, things I will admit about wow:

There are some really REALLY good design elements in it.

The setting and lore are fantastic. (although the whole "This is a major god! whoops level cap is up everyone can one shot him" thing is a little disconcerting)

The theme of almost every character and race is exceptional

The dungeons and boss encounters are very well designed (even if there isn't a reason to explore much of BRS there is a lot of cool stuff in there)

Battlegrounds and pvp is pretty tits.

and this is the big one:

Starting from scratch in WoW with no experience playing something else is one of the most exciting and fun experiences a gamer can have. But its still Heroin Hero.
 

fade

Staff member
Also, I'm downloading EvE now. I agree with most of your points about WoW, Necronic. I am pleasantly surprised to see there is a mac version.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Oh shit I am really sorry, didn't mean to skip this (because its a good point):

What is so well designed about EvE? Honestly, when I tried it out long ago, before I even played WoW for comparison, I just didn't like the game. It felt clunky, overcomplicated in some areas, and way to simple in others. It was, to me, a horrible design.
That is a really good point. The UI in EvE is not friendly to new players. Once you learn the game you realize you really do need all that (and that some of it is awesome,) but for a new player its a giant can of WTF.
 
If I have to intentionally handicap myself to make things interesting then the game isn't designed well
Disagree. I find the fact I have the choice to even attempt it to be good design, it's about having set goals layered with the ability to form personal ones, and the ability for people with skill to show ingenuity despite the system, rather then bound firm by it. It is, once again, a good balance.

Should a chess player get more pieces since he has been playing longer? A poker player? What about a basketball player? Maybe after X years he doesn't even have to do the free throws anymore.
Horrible comparisons and another case of apples to oranges. Those are competitive games in that they are designed to be that way, to start out every round with a more event start. Does this mean time is not a factor at all? I think you should go ask why the guy with a gut can't keep up with Willie Parker until he gets his ass in shape. If you want "chess" in WoW, you take part in the Arena Tournaments when they start.

Anyways, you're telling me you have never talked trash about a show, game, or webcomic on this sight before? You have no opinions on things that you display openly?
Oh I have, but here is the problem. While I dislike something, I make it known that such are my opinions, not truths. Truth can never come from me because I, as a human, are built by my desires and experiences. I think "Lost" is one of the silliest shows on television, and stopped watching it ages ago. Do I go and say "Fuck guys, don't watch that shit and come watch BONES instead, it is such a better show not like that candy crap lostite shit."

That is the difference. One can be critical, but your opinion is not gospel, you are not a prophet anymore then I am the Pope of Gaming. I make my opinion known, and I will do so in a way that does not simply call everything I don't like an inferior brand of the same old crap.

Ok, the concept of a good game may be subjective, but the concept of a bad game rarely is. Like, we may have different opinions about what makes a girl pretty, but I think we can all agree that the girl with the pubic hair mustache isn't
That, right there, does not help your argument. While I may not be attracted to a woman with a pubic hair mustache, that does not mean "everyone" does not. Saying such does more to cement my original argument then anything I could say in return.

So there's that "everyone has a right to be right" thing again. You defend the game but offer no specific responses to the very specific charges I am levelling here (with lance and banner flowing, I shall slay the wicked dragon!) Saying it is a "preferred" design doesn't explain why. I don't want to "argue about the arguement" too much, but please make a point here.
There is nothing to counter when the argument itself is subjective. You wish for me to make a point? I already have, stop thinking your opinion is truth, and accept that others may enjoy things you don't, and hate things you like. That is life, and something you simply have to get over in the end, just as I will get over this thread after this post.

Now, this may be something that has changed since I have been away, but what is the historical price of any item? They plummet massively over time right? Arcane crystals cost something like, what, 30g when I hit 60, when I quit they sold for maybe 10. Also, at 60 there were only a handful of craftable weapons of any real interest. Arcanite Reaper was the only one I could remember, and that one plummetted in value and useability really fast (even before the level cap increase)
Not sure on your server, but the price for older good actually rise over time, as less and less people openly farm them over the more desired high end materials. Items will always lose usability, it is a part of the game, and all part of that "gear reset" I spoke about that seems to appall your senses.

And to the self righteous thing. I'll admit, I'm being pretty harsh, but I am giving reasoning behind everything I have said. Maybe my reasoning is wrong, seriously maybe it is. But I am making an attempt to base my arguments in reason. "Leonitus, use your reason!" May not be the best quote to use here....
The issue, and this is the core, as I don't feel like discussing this further, is that you are not using reasoning. You have a set ideal of what a game should be, a bar shifted up and sideways that is your measuring stick. To you, a well designed game is one you enjoy, but on the flip, a bad designed game is one you don't. Games are games, peoples from Canada to Croatia play them for different desires, different goals, different reasons. One mans "Halo" may be another mans "Haven".

I personally have no issue with you disliking WoW, I never said you have to like the game for any reason. However, I ask that you realize your perception is biased, and that by that very reason you can not claim something as truth. That was my whole reason for this entire discussion. Not to defend WoW, as I have really nothing needing defending, but to counter your insinuation that my enjoyment is not "genuine", that by playing a game for fun I am "ruining" the form of entertainment I have been a part of just as long as you. That, my friend, is what this is all about.
 

Necronic

Staff member
you made some good points there.

Disagree. I find the fact I have the choice to even attempt it to be good design, it's about having set goals layered with the ability to form personal ones, and the ability for people with skill to show ingenuity despite the system, rather then bound firm by it. It is, once again, a good balance.
There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.

Horrible comparisons and another case of apples to oranges. Those are competitive games in that they are designed to be that way, to start out every round with a more event start. Does this mean time is not a factor at all? I think you should go ask why the guy with a gut can't keep up with Willie Parker until he gets his ass in shape. If you want "chess" in WoW, you take part in the Arena Tournaments when they start.
What's a Pvp server supposed to be then? A game of paddycakes? Any online game is competitive. WoW is competitive, even on the pve servers (first to do take down so and so). Competition should have at its core at least some sense of balance. Now I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to earn advantages. But it shouldn't be through time investment. I guess that really is opinion. Most people would disagree with me. I know at my work there are people who think that just because they have been at the company for X years that entitles them to a position. But to me that's just an excuse for them to be lazy.

Oh I have, but here is the problem. While I dislike something, I make it known that such are my opinions, not truths. Truth can never come from me because I, as a human, are built by my desires and experiences. I think "Lost" is one of the silliest shows on television, and stopped watching it ages ago. Do I go and say "Fuck guys, don't watch that shit and come watch BONES instead, it is such a better show not like that candy crap lostite shit."

That is the difference. One can be critical, but your opinion is not gospel, you are not a prophet anymore then I am the Pope of Gaming. I make my opinion known, and I will do so in a way that does not simply call everything I don't like an inferior brand of the same old crap.
Well, you totally have me there. What I am saying isn't Truth with a capital T, its my evaluation of the situation. Generally speaking, if I am talking about something that is really important, I would never present it this way (because people get defensive and stop listening.) In this case, or like with Lost (which by the way really is a terrible show and I have gone on long rants about why it sucks) its really not that important to me. Which is why I get a little tongue in cheek with my Sermon on the Mount and go balls to the wall. But hey man, its the internets. That's how we do things here (which is also why I will never argue anything serious here.)

That, right there, does not help your argument. While I may not be attracted to a woman with a pubic hair mustache, that does not mean "everyone" does not. Saying such does more to cement my original argument then anything I could say in return.
From what I read we are 2 for 2 right now. My assessment is at 100%. See, we can agree on something.

There is nothing to counter when the argument itself is subjective. You wish for me to make a point? I already have, stop thinking your opinion is truth, and accept that others may enjoy things you don't, and hate things you like. That is life, and something you simply have to get over in the end, just as I will get over this thread after this post.
Hey, I already said you had me on that. Still though. I think my arguments are valid and yours are mostly composed of saying that any opinion is inherently valid. (Edit: man, I just reread what I wrote and it is a fucking terrible argument. That's what I get for arguing drunk I suppose.)

Not sure on your server, but the price for older good actually rise over time, as less and less people openly farm them over the more desired high end materials. Items will always lose usability, it is a part of the game, and all part of that "gear reset" I spoke about that seems to appall your senses.
Hm. That's interesting (seriously). Are there people or guilds who focus entirely on trading?

I personally have no issue with you disliking WoW, I never said you have to like the game for any reason. However, I ask that you realize your perception is biased, and that by that very reason you can not claim something as truth.
Actually based on this thread you seem to have a serious problem with me disliking WoW. And hey, that's cool, you should rise to the defense of something you like. But don't get miffed that I choose to respond as well. That's what healthy banter is all about.

Also.... of course my perception is biased.....

I've seen the light!
 
There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.
Can you define the use of "metagaming" here?[/QUOTE]

They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.
 
Well, you totally have me there. What I am saying isn't Truth with a capital T, its my evaluation of the situation. Generally speaking, if I am talking about something that is really important, I would never present it this way (because people get defensive and stop listening.) In this case, or like with Lost (which by the way really is a terrible show and I have gone on long rants about why it sucks) its really not that important to me. Which is why I get a little tongue in cheek with my Sermon on the Mount and go balls to the wall. But hey man, its the internets. That's how we do things here (which is also why I will never argue anything serious here.)
Fair enough, at least you see the point, and that really is all I would ask.

Hey, I already said you had me on that. Still though. I think my arguments are valid and yours are mostly composed of saying that any opinion is inherently valid.
Your arguments are valid in the scope of your desires and experience, but your argument is not valid as truth. That is all I mean in any of this, and as long as you understand that I have no issue to continue that discussion.

Hm. That's interesting (seriously). Are there people or guilds who focus entirely on trading?
Not sure. I have met dozens of individuals though that do. They have a whole thing called the "Gold Cap Club" because the goal of them all is to work the market till they reach the gold caps, mostly using the AH to adjust prices. Most of them are pissed with a recent patch change that is going to lower the "value" on a few high end materials.

Actually based on this thread you seem to have a serious problem with me disliking WoW. And hey, that's cool, you should rise to the defense of something you like. But don't get miffed that I choose to respond as well. That's what healthy banter is all about.
If I had an issue with you disliking WoW, I would make it known in much more noticable terms as I can be ravenous when I disagree with someone, but in light of this discussion that would make me a hypocrite if I even did think that. Fact is, I never dislike people who dislike WoW as long as they keep the dislike to the realm of personal opinion without vieled insults to the players. When one says that all we do in WoW means nothing, that is an implication that we, as players, play for nothing, and are just beaten wives walking back into abuse. I take offense to that ideal, whether it is WoW, Free Realms, or MERIDIAN that I play. I would have said nothing in this thread if not for that implication, and that goes back to the first thing I said to you.

Or you know, it amounts to enjoying yourself, like any other game.
I am far from miffed at the discussion, but I will not hold back a punch either if I feel one needs a little jab on the chin. That is something you seem to understand. :p
 
There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.
Can you define the use of "metagaming" here?[/QUOTE]

They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I'm still kind of confused by the definition. Let's say a glitch is discovered that changes how a lot of people play the game. Is that ingenuity within the boundaries of the game or is that ingenuity in metagaming?
 
There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.
Can you define the use of "metagaming" here?[/QUOTE]

They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I'm still kind of confused by the definition. Let's say a glitch is discovered that changes how a lot of people play the game. Is that ingenuity within the boundaries of the game or is that ingenuity in metagaming?[/QUOTE]

Basically just watch The Matrix and imagine everyone is orcs and night elves and stuff.
 

fade

Staff member
Pretty sure he means that a lot of WoW players make WoW about the playing of the game itself rather than about the actual world (lower case intentional) of Warcraft. Something I can definitely concur with.
 
Pretty sure he means that a lot of WoW players make WoW about the playing of the game itself rather than about the actual world (lower case intentional) of Warcraft. Something I can definitely concur with.
I definitely do that. I mostly care about going in the dungeon and killing the bad guy/gal. I don't care that she secretly has the ear of the regent of Stormwind.
 
Pretty sure he means that a lot of WoW players make WoW about the playing of the game itself rather than about the actual world (lower case intentional) of Warcraft. Something I can definitely concur with.
I definitely do that. I mostly care about going in the dungeon and killing the bad guy/gal. I don't care that she secretly has the ear of the regent of Stormwind.[/QUOTE]

Really? Damn, I do. Not so much that I won't skip all the setup in H ToC and the like after the 10th time, but still.
 
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