That's because in EvE we respect player skill above everything, whereas in WoWtypes people only respect "paying your dues" / playing ridiculous hours to grind the level cap.
Once again you are generalizing. WoW has it's own skilled players, many of which take on challenges at a gear level much lower then required. You have the old school days when rogues were able to kill people with newbie daggers. We have people that do show skill, and they do get some respect. It is not always about "paying your dues", but sometimes that is important too.[/quote]
Well of course I am generalizing. I am talking about the game as a whole.There are exceptions to every rule. But your example is simply metagaming again. If I have to intentionally handicap myself to make things interesting then the game isn't designed well. 4X games have a real problem with this. Most of them increase difficulty by just giving the CPU more money and you less. And in the words of my old programming proffesor "That's duct tape, that's bad" . Galactic Civilization has a difficulty slider focused around clock time the AI gets. That is good design.
A good game should reward skill instead of time invested. I think that's hard to argue against.
It is more then that. Time is part of it, skill is part of it. A game with all skill but no content to base it is stagnate. A game with all time investment but no skill is basically autopilot. A mix is desired, something were one can put in the time to build himself up, but sooner or later he is going to reach a threshold. When he does, others will naturally catch up to him. That is how I prefer my game, it is about balance.
We'll agree to disagree. Having to invest time, not to get good at something, but as the only way to advance is bad. It's lazy design. If someone jumps into a L4D match should they have better weapons because they play more (see modern warfare....) Should a chess player get more pieces since he has been playing longer? A poker player? What about a basketball player? Maybe after X years he doesn't even have to do the free throws anymore.
There's no bitterness. This is about giving. I am like the shaman that comes into your mud huts and shows you how to make fire. Honest to god, I love nothing more than introducing a good game to someone and seeing them love it.
The issue is "good game" is subjective. You feel like bringing EvE into this means you are some sort of god, but in truth you are just like me. You are a gamer sitting around and enjoying a game. You didn't enjoy another game. To imply EvE is "superior" to WoW is saying Apples are ten times better then Bananas, it means nothing.
Ok, the concept of a good game may be subjective, but the concept of a bad game rarely is. Like, we may have different opinions about what makes a girl pretty, but I think we can all agree that the girl with the pubic hair mustache isn't
Also, consensus is a classical logical fallacy (although so are all my ad hominems, well technically they are not fallacies just crappy rhetoric). Are you going to tell me that Lineage 2 is a good game simply because a bunch of people play it? Or that American Idol is a good show because lots of people watch it? And its not that they are sheeple. It's that they just haven't been "shown the way". That's what I am trying to do here, prostyletize (sp?). If only i could use old styles of burning heretics to get my point across,
There you go with the "god complex" again, it really does not suite you.
As for Lingeage 2 and American Idol. I don't like them, but you know what I do? I don't watch them. I don't walk up to my mother and say "American Idol is horrible, you are rotting your brain!" because that is not my place nor correct, because as much as I find the show putrid, the fact people enjoy it is all that matters. People enjoy different things, I hate Twilight, but I don't force that opinion on my friends that enjoy Twilight.
That, really, is your issue, you have to "hate" on WoW in order to make yourself feel better about your own choice in game. It is the classic case, "Well if I don't like it obviously I am right and everyone else is stupid!" That, my friend, is much more a waste of time then anything you can do in WoW.
First off its not a god complex, its a prophet complex thank you very much. I'm trying to take yall to the promised land damnit.
Anyways, you're telling me you have never talked trash about a show, game, or webcomic on this sight before? You have no opinions on things that you display openly?
I do. I have a problem with inferior products being accepted because "everyone has a right to be right." Fuck that. Homeopathy isn't a real medicine, American Idol isn't good television, and Console FPS tournaments are the Special Olympics of gaming. Of course people can think what they want, but I will challenge them on their ideas. Hell, maybe I will learn something. I honestly generally argue with the intent, not to be correct, but to find a higher truth. Now, in the case of this argument I am being a little more aggressive, but in honesty some of the posts I have seen have pointed out some things that I will agree to (see at the end)
One of the things that makes me the massive hater that I am is an obsession with game design. I don't care dick about graphics or story or any of that shit. Just flat out design. This whole concept of "Gear Reset" as being the only way to level the playing field is such a huge indication of bad design that it appalls me other people don't see it. The necessity of this indicates a single vector of progress. If the game had more than 1 type of progress (and to be fair it does have like 1.1 with pvp rewards) then this would never be an issue.
You are obsessed, I will give you that, but it is not with game design. Game design is a free flowing ideal, it is all about taking a base set of ideas and mechanics and making them enjoyable. You are not obsessed with game design, you are obsessed with your ego. You make it very clear that you give yourself and your outlook more credit then it is actually worth. The gear reset is not bad design in the system in which it is utilized, and is actually a "preferred" design. Can there be other methods, other ideals? Yes, that is the nature of design.
You being "appalled" that no one else sees it just goes to show you are off in your own little world of self-justification.
So there's that "everyone has a right to be right" thing again. You defend the game but offer no specific responses to the very specific charges I am levelling here (with lance and banner flowing, I shall slay the wicked dragon!) Saying it is a "preferred" design doesn't explain why. I don't want to "argue about the arguement" too much, but please make a point here.
Say, for instance, if there was a remotely stable economy with a remotely well implemented crafting system. If that was the case then people who raid and people who pvp would have to rely on people who craft. We could get more fine tuned and say that the people who craft would have to rely on people who gather, or on other people who craft. These interdependicies create an MMO ecosystem of sorts that would maintain itself without constant fiddling at the level blizzard does.
Disagree. We have gone over this many times in the past in the community, and we find that the crafting dynamics are fine the way they are because they allow great bonuses while not adding to many layers to a game that already has a lot of options (ones, obviously, you refuse to even see, but I digress). Crafting is viable, and WoW has such a large economy of goods and trades that people have written books on it.
Now, this may be something that has changed since I have been away, but what is the historical price of any item? They plummet massively over time right? Arcane crystals cost something like, what, 30g when I hit 60, when I quit they sold for maybe 10. Also, at 60 there were only a handful of craftable weapons of any real interest. Arcanite Reaper was the only one I could remember, and that one plummetted in value and useability really fast (even before the level cap increase)
So.....something yall asked for is actually indicative of terrible design. This is why I must preach the faith. I don't actually care if its EvE you come to, and I don't really care if its WoW that you leave. My real issue is that people need to start seeing these elements of bad design for what they are. That acceptance just leads to lazier and lazier design that I really do think will end up with us all playing Heroin Hero if we aren't careful.
Get over yourself. You speak of terrible design, but I have to ask. What is so well designed about EvE? Honestly, when I tried it out long ago, before I even played WoW for comparison, I just didn't like the game. It felt clunky, overcomplicated in some areas, and way to simple in others. It was, to me, a horrible design. Now, this is where the idea of "taste" and "perception" come into play. You preach a gospel that is false, because by limiting what is "good" and "bad" design to your own taste, you are limiting design in general. You, my friend, are much more of a ruination then anything I can see some out of "Heroin Hero".
People, over time, shift and flow. Games that were once best sellers now barely make the figures anticipated, because tastes change, people change, and thus why new designs have to be made.
Well I'm pretty sure I already covered what the good design elements of EvE are. And understand, there are TONS of games I think are great. From FPSs (L4D, MW2, HL) to RPGs (Baldurs Gate, Obivion (modded of course)) to RTSs (DoW, CoH), 4X(Civ series, Gal Civ) to Tactical Turn Based Strategies (Fallout1&2, Jagged Alliance 2) to whatever. But I can't help but stare down flaws that exist when they do. Like, I was playing Medieval 2 recently, which I was really excited about because it mixed 4X with RTS in a way I thought would be awesome. And it was. At first. Until I realized that the AI was astonishingly pathetic. And I stopped playing it. Because I hold games to a standard, and not even a high one.
Hey man, jerking off is fun too but I still think its better to go out and get laid. EvE isn't just fun, its challenging, and there is a big difference. Having to invest X amount of time to succeed is not challenging, having to design a MS Access database to be competitive in the market is. The reward you get from accomplishing something that is both fun and challenging is far greater than something that is just fun.
Disagree. If I wanted something fun AND challenging, I would go outside and play sports. A game, at the core, is designed to bring fun. Challenge is added on to that, and frankly, you underestimate how challenging WoW can be if you actually cared enough to try. Is it as challenging as EvE? No, does the WoW community want it to be as challenging as EvE? No, because otherwise we would play EvE.
I don't wish to continue to speak with you though if all that you answer this with is more "self-righteous" banter that adds nothing to the discussion other then further degredation, so if that is the case, good day.
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A game, at its core, is to challenge you mentally and/or physically. Every historic game of any significance has this in it. Chess. Poker. Soccer. That Aztec game where you put the ball through the hoop or you get decapitated (that one was mentally challenging, ba dum pshhh!) Bacci. Even fucking shuffleboard. Something that is done just for fun but doesn't present any challenge whatsoever? That sounds like either Kick the Can or rubbing one out (although if you take sleeping pills and see if you can finish before you fall asleep that does qualify as a game to me. Took that one from seth rogan)
And to the self righteous thing. I'll admit, I'm being pretty harsh, but I am giving reasoning behind everything I have said. Maybe my reasoning is wrong, seriously maybe it is. But I am making an attempt to base my arguments in reason. "Leonitus, use your reason!" May not be the best quote to use here....
also, things I will admit about wow:
There are some really REALLY good design elements in it.
The setting and lore are fantastic. (although the whole "This is a major god! whoops level cap is up everyone can one shot him" thing is a little disconcerting)
The theme of almost every character and race is exceptional
The dungeons and boss encounters are very well designed (even if there isn't a reason to explore much of BRS there is a lot of cool stuff in there)
Battlegrounds and pvp is pretty tits.
and this is the big one:
Starting from scratch in WoW with no experience playing something else is one of the most exciting and fun experiences a gamer can have. But its still Heroin Hero.