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Gas Bandit's Political Thread III
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#1
GasBandit
GasBandit
Gas Bandit's Political Thread Update - Huge Gigantic Font Edition
So Gordon Brown gave Obama a pen made from the wood of a british Anti-slavery ship. And Obama gave him a box set of 25 "great american movie" DVDs... in NTSC format, which means they won't play on british DVD players.
Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
You know if the above happened to Bush and Condi, the media would literally be eating them alive at this moment.
Seems there's a little bit of a hissyfit going on between Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich.
A great Thomas Sowell column .. just chock full o' common sense. Try this sentence: "Why should taxpayers who live in apartments, perhaps because they did not feel that they could afford to buy a house, be forced to subsidize other people who could not afford to buy a house but who went ahead and bought one anyway?" Why indeed?
The Supreme Court ruled against the expansion of protection for minorities under the federal voting rights law. Clearly a racist court.
Wikipedia won't be putting up with any controversy in their glowing, loving article on Barack Obama.
There's a lot of flapping of gums going on about who "wants Obama to fail." Just a little flashback for you ... back in 2006, more than half of Democrats wanted George Bush to fail.
This ought to get the wealth-envy crowd going ... a Facebook for the filthy, evil, scum-filled rich.
Let's wrap it up with a great quote -
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that, my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." - Dr. Adrian Pierce Rogers
So Gordon Brown gave Obama a pen made from the wood of a british Anti-slavery ship. And Obama gave him a box set of 25 "great american movie" DVDs... in NTSC format, which means they won't play on british DVD players.
Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
You know if the above happened to Bush and Condi, the media would literally be eating them alive at this moment.
Seems there's a little bit of a hissyfit going on between Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich.
A great Thomas Sowell column .. just chock full o' common sense. Try this sentence: "Why should taxpayers who live in apartments, perhaps because they did not feel that they could afford to buy a house, be forced to subsidize other people who could not afford to buy a house but who went ahead and bought one anyway?" Why indeed?
The Supreme Court ruled against the expansion of protection for minorities under the federal voting rights law. Clearly a racist court.
Wikipedia won't be putting up with any controversy in their glowing, loving article on Barack Obama.
There's a lot of flapping of gums going on about who "wants Obama to fail." Just a little flashback for you ... back in 2006, more than half of Democrats wanted George Bush to fail.
This ought to get the wealth-envy crowd going ... a Facebook for the filthy, evil, scum-filled rich.
Let's wrap it up with a great quote -
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that, my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." - Dr. Adrian Pierce Rogers
#2
Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
Gas Bandit's Political Thread II
Wow.
Not completely true. Almost all dvd players will play both PAL and NTSC. The problem is more that most players are region locked to not be able to play Region 1 (North America) discs. Which a simple google will fix (not sure about the legality of it, but it can be done). The next one however...GasBandit said:
Yeah...GasBandit said:Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
Wow.
#3
Covar
Covar
Gas Bandit's Political Thread II
:aaahhh:
GasBandit said:
:aaahhh:
#4
Lamont
Lamont
Gas Bandit's Political Thread II
Oh we never talk about Doctor Who in the Tenth Planet.GasBandit said:Probably. I can't stand doctor who fanboyism in progress.Lamont said:I spend most of my forum time on the Tenth Planet sub-section of the Doctor Who Forum. And I suddenly realised that Gas Bandit's head would explode if he ever went there.
#5
GasBandit
GasBandit
Gas Bandit's Political Thread II
I don't find that hard to believe, actually... because they seem to talk about Dr. Who EVERYWHERE ELSE IN EXISTENCE CONSTANTLY so the fanbois must have run dry for a subforumLamont said:Oh we never talk about Doctor Who in the Tenth Planet.GasBandit said:Probably. I can't stand doctor who fanboyism in progress.Lamont said:I spend most of my forum time on the Tenth Planet sub-section of the Doctor Who Forum. And I suddenly realised that Gas Bandit's head would explode if he ever went there.
#6
Iaculus
Iaculus
Gas Bandit's Political Thread II
Oy. She does seem particularly prone to gaffes where Europe is concerned - remember the snipers?GasBandit said:Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
#7
Lamont
Lamont
Gas Bandit's Political Thread II
Right. My point, though I realise this was impossible to decipher without prior knowledge, is that the Tenth Planet is the Current Affairs, Real World and Politics sub-section of the Doctor Who Forum. We're our own little world, basically. And TP leans a lot to the left these days. Wasn't always so, but for the last three, four years, whoo, that place would make you cry tears of blood.GasBandit said:I don't find that hard to believe, actually... because they seem to talk about Dr. Who EVERYWHERE ELSE IN EXISTENCE CONSTANTLY so the fanbois must have run dry for a subforumLamont said:
#8
GasBandit
GasBandit
Gas Bandit's Political Thread II
My tears of blood are all dried up.
An uncle of mine ran for city council as a libertarian in the 90s. At the time, few actually knew what a libertarian was. We met somebody who actually voted for him... the guy was an absolute socialist. As we revealed to him the nature of Libertarianism, he became more and more horrified. He actually said at one point that it should be the government's responsibility to mow his lawn.Lamont said:Right. My point, though I realise this was impossible to decipher without prior knowledge, is that the Tenth Planet is the Current Affairs, Real World and Politics sub-section of the Doctor Who Forum. We're our own little world, basically. And TP leans a lot to the left these days. Wasn't always so, but for the last three, four years, whoo, that place would make you cry tears of blood.GasBandit said:I don't find that hard to believe, actually... because they seem to talk about Dr. Who EVERYWHERE ELSE IN EXISTENCE CONSTANTLY so the fanbois must have run dry for a subforumLamont said:
My tears of blood are all dried up.
#9
TheBrew
Yes, because removing the ridiculous questions about his citizenship is them removing all controversy. Wikipedia doesn't need more stupid, tyvm.
TheBrew
Well, she covered for the first gaffe gracefully and who the fuck cares about Greece's quasi-democracy from 2,000 years ago? America was the first modern-Democracy, which is what she was referencing.GasBandit said:Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
Yes, because removing the ridiculous questions about his citizenship is them removing all controversy. Wikipedia doesn't need more stupid, tyvm.
Tit-for-tat hasn't worked, doesn't work, and will not work. You can't go around being a dick just because the other guy did it. I guess the failure to understand that is why some people are pro-torture.
#10
GasBandit
GasBandit
Tit-for-tat hasn't worked, doesn't work, and will not work. You can't go around being a dick just because the other guy did it. I guess the failure to understand that is why some people are pro-torture.[/quote:1z167wqt]TheBrew said:Well, she covered for the first gaffe gracefully and who the fuck cares about Greece's quasi-democracy from 2,000 years ago? America was the first modern-Democracy, which is what she was referencing.GasBandit said:Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
Yes, because removing the ridiculous questions about his citizenship is them removing all controversy. Wikipedia doesn't need more stupid, tyvm.
[quote:1z167wqt]
There's a lot of flapping of gums going on about who "wants Obama to fail." Just a little flashback for you ... back in 2006, more than half of Democrats wanted George Bush to fail.
#11
Covar
Covar
The Greeks.TheBrew said:Well, she covered for the first gaffe gracefully and who the boop cares about Greece's quasi-democracy from 2,000 years ago? ...GasBandit said:Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
Yea, because Rush made his statement based on the results of a 2006 poll. :eyeroll: But of course those poll results are perfectly kosher, not like those obscene comments by Rush.TheBrew said:
#12
Troll
Troll
And the Romans. And Europe in general. And anyone with half a brain who wants our representatives to not sound like gibbering morons when speaking to heads of state.Covar said:The Greeks.TheBrew said:Well, she covered for the first gaffe gracefully and who the boop cares about Greece's quasi-democracy from 2,000 years ago? ...GasBandit said:Oh, but not to be outdone, Hillary had to do TWO foreign affairs gaffes. Not only did she inadvertently insult the Russian PM with the gift of an "overcharge" button (it was supposed to be a "reset" button, to show it was time to start our relations over on the right foot, but the translation got screwed up), but then she goes to brussels and tells europe that American democracy predates European democracy.
#13
Dieb
But more seriously, do you remember any actual leaders of the Democratic party publically hoping that Bush was a failure in early 2001? I sure as hell don't.
Dieb
Oh man, I read a refutation of that just minuites before coming here! Ha. Anyway, as it turns out, Wikipedia maintains a whole seperate page on Obama conspiracy theories. There's a link from the main Obama page to it. But because they do HAVE a different page on it, they want all discussion of that crazyness on that page instead of the main Obama page. Obviously.GasBandit said:
In 2006, Bush's presidency already WAS a giant failure
But more seriously, do you remember any actual leaders of the Democratic party publically hoping that Bush was a failure in early 2001? I sure as hell don't.
#14
F
Futureking
F
Futureking
Emphasis on "publically"Dieb said:In 2006, Bush's presidency already WAS a giant failureGasBandit said:
#15
Krisken
And?
Krisken
Emphasis on "publically"[/quote]Futureking said:In 2006, Bush's presidency already WAS a giant failure
And?
#16
F
Futureking
F
Futureking
Face it. Political parties want each other to screw up to look good in front of the voters, regardless of whether they make their wishes public or not. That's politics.Krisken said:And?Futureking said:Emphasis on "publically"Dieb said:In 2006, Bush's presidency already WAS a giant failureGasbandit said:
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Espy
Espy
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Espy
Espy
OMG WE AGREE.Krisken said:
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Covar
Covar
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Krisken
Krisken
Why so surprised? I thought it was a stupid argument back in 2001 when people disagreed with Bush and they were called unpatriotic. People should be allowed to disagree, that's the point of democracy. Through the discussion (not argument) of different ideas the best ideas should be allowed to rise for the betterment of the nation.Espy said:OMG WE AGREE.Krisken said:
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Espy
Espy
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Lamont
Lamont
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Espy
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JONJONAUG
JONJONAUG
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strawman
strawman
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Troll
Troll
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strawman
strawman
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Troll
Troll
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Espy
Espy
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JONJONAUG
JONJONAUG
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Troll
Troll
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strawman
strawman
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Troll
Troll
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Krisken
Krisken
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strawman
strawman
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Troll
I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only exception would be that I'm more hopeful that merit pay will actually be implemented.
Troll
stienman said:
I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only exception would be that I'm more hopeful that merit pay will actually be implemented.
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strawman
strawman
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Iaculus
Iaculus
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Covar
Covar
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Troll
Troll
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Krisken
Krisken
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makare
makare
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strawman
strawman
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makare
makare
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strawman
strawman
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Covar
Covar
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makare
makare
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strawman
strawman
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Krisken
Krisken
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makare
makare
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strawman
strawman
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Krisken
Krisken
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makare
makare
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strawman
strawman
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makare
makare
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Krisken
Krisken
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strawman
strawman
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Krisken
Krisken
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Covar
Covar
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Krisken
Krisken
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Covar
Covar
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Krisken
Krisken
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Covar
Covar
:uhhuh:Krisken said:
#74
F
Futureking
F
Futureking
Too...many strawman arguments.
As a product of partial private schooling, I"ll give some answers.
Note, "opinion & centuries-old teaching rather than scientific proof". Science & social studies are just two subjects. There's still math, language, history, geography, accounting, economics. How in the world does religion fit into learning about the American civil war?
And about the argument about creating a religion dominated society just from sponsoring students who may enrol in religious schools?
The democratic system means that the majority gets to vote. And the sum of students in private schools, let alone religious ones is definitely less than the sum of students in public schools.
Yes, the student's beliefs is affected by his environment and peers. But the beliefs are the student's alone. A kid brought up in a religious school with religious parents may end up agnostic in his later years. Similarly, a kid brought up in a secular school with atheist parents may end up religious.
Frankly speaking, students just do better in private schools. Religious parents may enrol their kids in a religious school. But student performance matters at the end of the day. They'd withdraw their kids if the school is a lousy one, regardless of religious affiliation.
If anything, reduced students mean that they can get better attention from teachers, and there is less waiting time for sharing computers in the computer rooms.
If the private school has more empty seats than applicants, there is no good reason to turn the applicant down, unless the kid is known to be a real troublemaker.
Conclusion
Private schools can't suck in the entire student population in a neighbourhood, let alone a state or nation. Public schools are already overloaded and the private schools are easing the burden if anything. And people are complaining about private schools stealing students?
As a product of partial private schooling, I"ll give some answers.
This, imo is the grand argument against the vouchers. It sounds too much like churches warning against declining moral standards and how they must make a stand. In fact, just change a few words and it sounds like a normal Sunday sermon in the average church.Krisken said:
Note, "opinion & centuries-old teaching rather than scientific proof". Science & social studies are just two subjects. There's still math, language, history, geography, accounting, economics. How in the world does religion fit into learning about the American civil war?
And about the argument about creating a religion dominated society just from sponsoring students who may enrol in religious schools?
The democratic system means that the majority gets to vote. And the sum of students in private schools, let alone religious ones is definitely less than the sum of students in public schools.
Yes, the student's beliefs is affected by his environment and peers. But the beliefs are the student's alone. A kid brought up in a religious school with religious parents may end up agnostic in his later years. Similarly, a kid brought up in a secular school with atheist parents may end up religious.
Frankly speaking, students just do better in private schools. Religious parents may enrol their kids in a religious school. But student performance matters at the end of the day. They'd withdraw their kids if the school is a lousy one, regardless of religious affiliation.
Public schools are overloaded. Its not the question of funding. According to the concept of diminishing returns, producing one more unit of output costs more and more in variable inputs. Books, teachers and computers are variable inputs. More students= more books, teachers, computers. So, the costs would be reduced as well.Krisken said:
If anything, reduced students mean that they can get better attention from teachers, and there is less waiting time for sharing computers in the computer rooms.
Implement standardised tests like the SAT in private schools as a regulatory requirement. Regardless of teaching methods, standardised test scores don't lie. Especially when a computer or a teacher in another school marks them.Krisken said:
Private schools showing favouritism? This argument only works under the assumption that the schools are already packed and they can't accept any more students without compromising their education quality. The American universities in the THES top 10 are all private schools. They can choose their students because there is a higher supply of applicants than seats available. Harvard chooses its students. Yale chooses its students. MIT chooses its students.Krisken said:
If the private school has more empty seats than applicants, there is no good reason to turn the applicant down, unless the kid is known to be a real troublemaker.
Conclusion
Private schools can't suck in the entire student population in a neighbourhood, let alone a state or nation. Public schools are already overloaded and the private schools are easing the burden if anything. And people are complaining about private schools stealing students?
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Covar
Covar
The article Krisken linked said:
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Krisken
Krisken
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Covar
Covar
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Krisken
Krisken
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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HoboNinja
HoboNinja
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Cuyval Dar
Cuyval Dar
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HoboNinja
HoboNinja
Why do private schools started by churches piss you off? Shit some of the best Universities in the country are private religious colleges. I can understand how not disclosing their budget could piss you off when you are paying it but how does a church running a school do anything bad? Honestly if I can afford it I am going to send my kids to a private Catholic school because those private schools offer a way better education, at least in my area. They learn well and they are instilled with good values and morals. They learn the same biology that you learn in a public school, Darwin and all. About the only difference is that yeah they will probably have abstinence only sex ed but from my experience most of the kids that go to those private schools don't need any sex ed if you know what I meanCuyval Dar said:
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Anubinomicon
Anubinomicon
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Iaculus
Iaculus
I think it's the shady concealed cash-transfers that got him twitchy, Hobo. Those aren't usually a sign that you're dealing with the good kind of church-sponsored school.HoboNinja said:Why do private schools started by churches * you off? * some of the best Universities in the country are private religious colleges. I can understand how not disclosing their budget could * you off when you are paying it but how does a church running a school do anything bad? Honestly if I can afford it I am going to send my kids to a private Catholic school because those private schools offer a way better education, at least in my area. They learn well and they are instilled with good values and morals. They learn the same biology that you learn in a public school, Darwin and all. About the only difference is that yeah they will probably have abstinence only sex ed but from my experience most of the kids that go to those private schools don't need any sex ed if you know what I meanCuyval Dar said:
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HoboNinja
HoboNinja
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Anubinomicon
Anubinomicon
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Espy
Espy
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Anubinomicon
Anubinomicon
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Iaculus
Iaculus
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Iaculus
Iaculus
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Dieb
I guess I'll throw in my two cents on the whole school debate here. I went to public school, and I am more than happy about that. Now, I went to a rich suburban high school, so I don't want to say my experience is the same as everyone who went to public high schools. But my school was just as good as any private high school. In fact, I went to a pretty damn exclusive college where half the people came from private high schools, and I was just as well prepared for college as they were. So if we're talking public versus private, well, I think the individual schools matter a WHOLE lot.
Dieb
Well, considering the Fair Tax has NOTHING to do with corporate tax rates, I suppose you just brought that up for other reasonsGasBandit said:
I guess I'll throw in my two cents on the whole school debate here. I went to public school, and I am more than happy about that. Now, I went to a rich suburban high school, so I don't want to say my experience is the same as everyone who went to public high schools. But my school was just as good as any private high school. In fact, I went to a pretty damn exclusive college where half the people came from private high schools, and I was just as well prepared for college as they were. So if we're talking public versus private, well, I think the individual schools matter a WHOLE lot.
#99
GasBandit
GasBandit
You're right in that it was a fairly un-smooth transition from "simplifying tax code" into yet another plug for the fair tax
As for individual public schools, well, of course there are some good ones, particularly in rich areas. But there are many, many more which are just holding pens to keep kids off the street until they turn 18, and even having mixed results doing that.
As for individual public schools, well, of course there are some good ones, particularly in rich areas. But there are many, many more which are just holding pens to keep kids off the street until they turn 18, and even having mixed results doing that.
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Krisken
Krisken
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Krisken
Krisken
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JCM
JCM
For GAsbandit´s collection
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Krisken
Krisken
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JCM
JCM
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JCM
JCM
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Espy
Espy
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Anubinomicon
Anubinomicon
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Espy
Espy
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Anubinomicon
Anubinomicon
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Covar
Covar
Batman can teach
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Anubinomicon
batdog is a much better teacher, then batman.
Anubinomicon
batdog is a much better teacher, then batman.
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twitchmoss
twitchmoss
batdog you say?
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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strawman
-Adam
strawman
ftfyKrisken said:
-Adam
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Krisken
Krisken
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
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Espy
Espy
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Dieb
Dieb
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Thread Necromancer
Thread Necromancer
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Espy
Espy
Thread Necromancer said:
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Thread Necromancer
But these are my thoughts, and by no means am I some kind of expert in any of this. That's why I am really interested in hearing opposing viewpoints. Or by all means, viewpoints like my own, but hearing the opposing side does more to give me a more rounded picture of things than just blindly screaming from the fence when it could probably be (easily) shown that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
Thread Necromancer
Not much of a thought Espy. Was actually curious. I didn't see it immediately being discussed by I for one am all for the idea of blocking the bonuses. If they have to bailed out, I don't feel they should be using bailout money to receive multiple millions in bonus money. And if they aren't using the "bailout" money for the bonuses, then those bonuses should be put towards pulling the company out of the hole anyhow.Espy said:Thread Necromancer said:
But these are my thoughts, and by no means am I some kind of expert in any of this. That's why I am really interested in hearing opposing viewpoints. Or by all means, viewpoints like my own, but hearing the opposing side does more to give me a more rounded picture of things than just blindly screaming from the fence when it could probably be (easily) shown that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Thanks, I needed that!
Krisken
Espy said:
Thanks, I needed that!
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Espy
Espy
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Iaculus
Iaculus
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Espy
Espy
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Krisken
dear christ, I hope people realize I'm playing along and joking.
Krisken
Certainly wasn't Repub fascists. They don't do real workFutureking said:
dear christ, I hope people realize I'm playing along and joking.
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Iaculus
Iaculus
Now now, people, let's be reasonable. The inferior work was clearly requested by the green agenda in their continuing attempt to destroy developed civilisation by crippling our metalworkers with spurious 'environmental regulation'. Nothing else makes sense.Krisken said:Certainly wasn't Repub fascists. They don't do real workFutureking said:
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JCM
JCM
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Espy
Espy
Oh JCM, don't get me wrong, I have no problems with the government saying here's what you can and can't do with all the trillions we are giving you, it's just the overall mess of the whole thing that's got me going
#147
JCM
Maybe we should start betting how soon the million and billion dollar bills are gonna be printed out...
JCM
That I must agree. Heck, it took what, 200 years for the presidents to get the debt to a trillion, and just 3 republicans to double it, and now just Obama to double it more.Espy said:Oh JCM, don't get me wrong, I have no problems with the government saying here's what you can and can't do with all the trillions we are giving you, it's just the overall mess of the whole thing that's got me going
Maybe we should start betting how soon the million and billion dollar bills are gonna be printed out...
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Krisken
Krisken
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Armadillo
i:
Armadillo
Look at the bright side...apparently there's nothing more important for the EU to worry about! All of the world's problems have been solved!GasBandit said:
i:
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Dieb
Dieb
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Espy
Espy
#154
GasBandit
GasBandit
#155
Krisken
Krisken
#156
Espy
Now that made my day!
Espy
GasBandit said:
Now that made my day!
#157
Iaculus
Iaculus
Wrong link, though.Espy said:GasBandit said:
Now that made my day!
#158
Armadillo
Armadillo
I agree. The government is COMPLETELY out of control right now.Krisken said:
#159
Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
#160
Krisken
At least this guy gets plenty of work in this thread.
vvvvv
Krisken
So please don't tar the entire organisation with the failures of one lot of management staff.[/quote:2du5439t]Mr_Chaz said:
At least this guy gets plenty of work in this thread.
vvvvv
#161
GasBandit
Urrrghhg...
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/l ... 982771.ece
GasBandit
Iaculus said:Wrong link, though.Espy said:GasBandit said:
Now that made my day!
Urrrghhg...
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/l ... 982771.ece
#162
Dieb
Dieb
#163
Krisken
Krisken
#164
#165
GasBandit
That's an excellent link there, showing a republican being just as stupid as the other guys I linked. The difference is, the guys I linked are in charge. More firmly in charge than any political party has been in my lifetime. Your point about Republicans though is completely valid and I am in agreement with it.
GasBandit
I never said I was non-partisan. I said I was libertarian. Libertarians can be extremely partisan. In fact, I've often said that bipartisanship is one of the things harming this country.Dieb said:
That's an excellent link there, showing a republican being just as stupid as the other guys I linked. The difference is, the guys I linked are in charge. More firmly in charge than any political party has been in my lifetime. Your point about Republicans though is completely valid and I am in agreement with it.
No, the connecticut law just says they'd do double damage if they sued and won (and with that kind of scratch at stake, you can bet they'd get some damn good lawyers involved). The federal government is not right to decide not to honor legal contracts just because they bought an 80 percent stake in a company after the contracts were signed. To pass a tax bill (legislation) which would de facto eliminate the bonuses in contracts that were signed and legal BEFORE the bill was passed is the very definition of ex post facto. Such a bill could only constitutionally affect new contracts going forward. There's another section in that quote, too, about impairing the obligation of contracts. But then, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, what with all the talk of "cramdown" legislation being put through, where a judge can just arbitrarily change your balance and interest on a mortgage to whatever he feels it should be. This country's turning more and more centralized each day.
Yes, Russia has become so much more agressive since we got this weakling President. Like invading Georgia. Oh wait, that was before Obama was even elected. But sure, that was Obama's fault as well, somehow. *rolls eyes*[/quote:2kgxoiw6] No, that could also no doubt be attributed partly to sensed weakness, but in a different form: in the form of the US already deployed in 2 theaters, not to mention so much militarily isolationist caterwauling going on during the presidential campaigns.
So, if you've not experienced a wreck, you should go ahead and cancel your insurance? We can't know how many spitballed ideas got mothballed before even being spoken by the knowledge that pilots would be armed. That's the thing about deterrents.Edrondol said:
It's not, and I am fair. I never claimed to be balanced, though. And you can go fuck yourself.
#166
Krisken
Krisken
#167
Dieb
Dieb
#168
Krisken
Thought this Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal was funny.
Krisken
Thought this Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal was funny.
#169
F
Futureking
They saved a whole 10 million pounds and they can't afford to get proper paper cups for drinking water?
F
Futureking
So please don't tar the entire organisation with the failures of one lot of management staff.[/quote:1cg2clli]Mr_Chaz said:
They saved a whole 10 million pounds and they can't afford to get proper paper cups for drinking water?
#170
Iaculus
Iaculus
#171
Covar
Covar
#172
Iaculus
Iaculus
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Krisken
Krisken
#175
Espy
Espy
#176
Covar
Covar
#177
Dieb
Dieb
#178
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
#179
Espy
Espy
#180
GasBandit
GasBandit
Again, I'm going to have to beg forgiveness for not being able to respond in a timely fashion. This very well might be my last post today (meaning until monday)... we'll have to see.
Two items of personal note... night before last, a homeless man spent the night in my car. That's a genuinely new experience for me. Second of all, seems Obama cut my taxes. My federal deduction went down by about 20 bucks. Eh, I'll take it. How about some more of that, and some spending cuts to do with it?
Ok, today's links -
The house passed the 90% tax on bonuses in a huge show of populist political pandering.
James Hansen has his boxers in a bunch because the democratic process isn't working fast enough to appease his global warmers. Don't you have more data to fudge somewhere, Jimmy?
Eric Holder wants to release Gitmo detainees into the U.S.
A study shows that wages for legal workers rose after immigration raids. Duhhhhh.
Joe Biden apparently is on the naughty list for the swimming pool crowd after his comments about swimming pools included in the economic stimulus package.
What are the government schools up to in Dallas? TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES! TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES!
Have you seen this picture of Vladimir Putin as a KGB officer, posing as a tourist with Ronald Reagan?
No, Bernie, you don't get to await sentencing in your posh penthouse. Not yours.
Britain's state-run health service has failed to boost survival rates for cancer patients substantially, despite tripling investment in cancer care over the past decade.
170 years after beheading a Ghanian king... Holland is sending the head home.
Two items of personal note... night before last, a homeless man spent the night in my car. That's a genuinely new experience for me. Second of all, seems Obama cut my taxes. My federal deduction went down by about 20 bucks. Eh, I'll take it. How about some more of that, and some spending cuts to do with it?
Espy says it well enough for me not to reiterate.Gruebeard said:
I think I do. It's not so hard to see. Hell, if 40% of americans see obama as weak, why wouldn't our once-and-future adversaries be even more so inclinde?Dieb said:
How many trillions of new fiat money does it take to turn "possible" deflation into inflation?
Now THAT'S a load of horsepucky. Every time obama got off his teleprompter he said something his apologists (hah, love being able to use that word now) had to cover for or spin. "I just want to spread the wealth around." "...here to honor fallen veterans, some of which I see standing here today..." "...have visited 57 states..." "...it makes no sense to send a kid with asthma to the hospital when you could just
I must have. I read it very quickly and I missed the part about it not going into effect until all the other states has also ratified it.
Ok, today's links -
The house passed the 90% tax on bonuses in a huge show of populist political pandering.
James Hansen has his boxers in a bunch because the democratic process isn't working fast enough to appease his global warmers. Don't you have more data to fudge somewhere, Jimmy?
Eric Holder wants to release Gitmo detainees into the U.S.
A study shows that wages for legal workers rose after immigration raids. Duhhhhh.
Joe Biden apparently is on the naughty list for the swimming pool crowd after his comments about swimming pools included in the economic stimulus package.
What are the government schools up to in Dallas? TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES! TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES!
Have you seen this picture of Vladimir Putin as a KGB officer, posing as a tourist with Ronald Reagan?
No, Bernie, you don't get to await sentencing in your posh penthouse. Not yours.
Britain's state-run health service has failed to boost survival rates for cancer patients substantially, despite tripling investment in cancer care over the past decade.
170 years after beheading a Ghanian king... Holland is sending the head home.
#181
Espy
Espy
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE0yAEvVsUo:sjga8hmp][/youtube:sjga8hmp]
Can someone please remind our president not to make fun of handicapped people on NATIONAL television?
Can someone please remind our president not to make fun of handicapped people on NATIONAL television?
#182
strawman
strawman
#183
Soliloquy
I'm not a big fan of the guy, but somehow I never expected Obama to make a stupid comment like this.
I just want to see what the public's reaction is to this, once word spreads.
Soliloquy
...yikes.Espy said:[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE0yAEvVsUo:1y8gj74s][/youtube:1y8gj74s]
Can someone please remind our president not to make fun of handicapped people on NATIONAL television?
I'm not a big fan of the guy, but somehow I never expected Obama to make a stupid comment like this.
I just want to see what the public's reaction is to this, once word spreads.
#184
F
Futureking
That was fast.
F
Futureking
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29784865/Espy said:[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE0yAEvVsUo:1z7e0phk][/youtube:1z7e0phk]
Can someone please remind our president not to make fun of handicapped people on NATIONAL television?
That was fast.
#185
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
#186
Espy
Espy
#187
Shakey
Shakey
#188
Soliloquy
Soliloquy
#189
GasBandit
I knew I had this somewhere.. had to go dig up a Bush moment for this occasion -
GasBandit
One of our radio jocks used to like to play a movie clip on the air which said "That's like being the smartest kid with down syndrome!" One day a parent and his child with trisomy 21 heard it on the air. He started a big stink about it on a local community internet forum. When the jock heard about it, he showed up at the forum and basically posted "I'm sorry you can't take a joke." Aaaaand it just went downhill from there. He doesn't work here any more (though, I must disclose this isn't why).Espy said:
I knew I had this somewhere.. had to go dig up a Bush moment for this occasion -
#191
Dieb
Dieb
#192
GasBandit
GasBandit
#193
Krisken
Krisken
#194
Dieb
On the other hand, I do agree that our economy has had far too much kicking the can down the road. But in the specific case of possible inflation, I'm ok with it. Mainly because the Fed has gotten rather good at containing inflation. Especially as the inflation that might happen would be induced by the Fed, that makes it easier for the Fed to contain it later. I'll admit, there are risks involved. It could get out of control. I simply think that the risk is small, and the downside of doing nothing is worse than the downside of high inflation in the future.
He says "Auschwitz" instead of "Dachau". Oh my, what a liar! He says "Afghanistan" instead of "Iraq" one time, in months of saying those two things litterally thousands of times. He can't speak without a teleprompter! And on and on. ANY politician has plenty of these moments - presidential candidates, who are in front of more cameras than most, even more so. I could make such a list for McCain pretty easily. I bet Regean made a lot of these silly mistakes as well. Obviously I don't even have to talk about W's verbal stumblings. But you expect Obama to be different somehow?
Oh, but I fogot to bring this up:
Oh, and Joe the Plummer, the "struggling entrepreneur" you were talking about, actually recieves a tax cut (both under Obama's plan during the elections and the laws passed and proposed so far).
But back to the original point: yes, he makes mistakes when speaking. He's human. That doesn't mean he's not an excellent communicator without a teleprompter. He won all three debates. He's been extremely effective at the town hall meetings he's been having since his inaugeration. Maybe if you paid attention more attention to how he's managed to spend so much political capital while still having sky high approval ratings, and less time ranting about teleprompters, you'd (by which I mean the whole opposition) would be doing a better job stopping, or at least slowing down, his agenda.
Dieb
Actually, no, it's not further propped up by the 60% number. Unless you think "not willing to say they approve of the President" is the same as saying "thinks the President is weak", which is NUTS. Only around 27% are willing to say they disaprove of the President, for God's sake, which is a lot less strong of an accusation than saying he's WEAK. Do you seriously think someone is willing to say the President is weak, but not say they disapprove of him? I sure as hell know people would be willing to go the other way (ie, say they disaprove of him, but not go so far as to say he's weak) which, logically, would point to the figure who think he's weak as less than 27%. Sure, it's casual conversation, but all evidence I can find points to the actual number being a lot bloody less than your number.GasBandit said:
CPI is not an "indicator" of inflation. It is a measure of inflation. No, it is THE measure of inflation. It is the definition of inflation in this country. Also, actually, a huge amount of money (an amount that dwarfs the stimulus) already HAS been pumped into the economy. By the Federal Reserve. Moreover, the way inflation works is that if you know the monetary supply will expand in the future, you get inflation today (if you KNOW there will be inflation in the future, you'll take actions that will cause inflation today).
On the other hand, I do agree that our economy has had far too much kicking the can down the road. But in the specific case of possible inflation, I'm ok with it. Mainly because the Fed has gotten rather good at containing inflation. Especially as the inflation that might happen would be induced by the Fed, that makes it easier for the Fed to contain it later. I'll admit, there are risks involved. It could get out of control. I simply think that the risk is small, and the downside of doing nothing is worse than the downside of high inflation in the future.
Yes. An honest mistake, a slip of the tongue. There were 57 contests for delegates for the Democratic presidential nomination (which includes things like Guam, Puerto Rico, two for Texas (they had a primary and a caucus) etc etc). He had a slip of the tongue and said "states" instead of "contests", which becomes obvious in the context of whenever he actually said that. Do you seriously think if you recorded everything you said for months you wouldn't make any silly mistake like that? I know I would say things that would be stupider than that.
He says "Auschwitz" instead of "Dachau". Oh my, what a liar! He says "Afghanistan" instead of "Iraq" one time, in months of saying those two things litterally thousands of times. He can't speak without a teleprompter! And on and on. ANY politician has plenty of these moments - presidential candidates, who are in front of more cameras than most, even more so. I could make such a list for McCain pretty easily. I bet Regean made a lot of these silly mistakes as well. Obviously I don't even have to talk about W's verbal stumblings. But you expect Obama to be different somehow?
Oh, but I fogot to bring this up:
You've been lied to. He sayd "Cuba, Venezuela and IRAN" were "tiny little countries" that "don't pose a serious threat to us"....."COMPARED TO THE SOVIET UNION". Context is everything. Here's a blog post from NRO with the full quote, just so you can't accuse me of biased sources (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/ ... MzY2YxMjc=). Of course, the author is a complete idiot and seems to think those countries ARE a bigger threat than the USSR, but that's NRO for you. None of those countries has thousands of nuclear weapons trained on US cities. None of those countries could completely wipe out all of civilization. Do you seriously want to argue this?
Oh, and Joe the Plummer, the "struggling entrepreneur" you were talking about, actually recieves a tax cut (both under Obama's plan during the elections and the laws passed and proposed so far).
But back to the original point: yes, he makes mistakes when speaking. He's human. That doesn't mean he's not an excellent communicator without a teleprompter. He won all three debates. He's been extremely effective at the town hall meetings he's been having since his inaugeration. Maybe if you paid attention more attention to how he's managed to spend so much political capital while still having sky high approval ratings, and less time ranting about teleprompters, you'd (by which I mean the whole opposition) would be doing a better job stopping, or at least slowing down, his agenda.
Christiana Romer is by no means Obama's "chief economic advisor". Laurence Summers, Geithner, Volker, Bernake...all these people are more important advisors. But in any case, McCain is a politician, Romer is an economist. These two occupations have different goals in life. Politicians are supposed to emphasize with us (ie, lie sometimes to make us feel better). Economists, on the other hand, are actually supposed to tell the truth. So yes, the fundamentals of our economy ARE strong. But McCain chose exactly the wrong time to say that. Of course, McCain is also extremely ill-informed when it comes to domestic matters (at least he is for a Presidential candidate), harping on him for this comment was dishonest by the Obama campaign, but it did get to a deeper truth. How's that for justification
#195
JCM
JCM
Aww, to be fair its always amazing how things like religion and political inclination can make one so blind to anything but what he believes in.Krisken said:
#196
Krisken
Krisken
#198
Krisken
Krisken
#199
F
Futureking
F
Futureking
Apathy is the best form of neutrality, eh?JCM said:Aww, to be fair its always amazing how things like religion and political inclination can make one so blind to anything but what he believes in.Krisken said:
#200
Iaculus
Iaculus
Me, I prefer scientific scepticism. Then again, that's probably a slant in and of itself...Futureking said:Apathy is the best form of neutrality, eh?JCM said:Aww, to be fair its always amazing how things like religion and political inclination can make one so blind to anything but what he believes in.Krisken said:
#201
Twitch
Twitch
#202
JCM
But then you guys have given me much entertainment, with hopes of a drawn-out war and increased terrorism, so nowadays I just
JCM
Im a centrist and basically laugh at both sides, and how they turn a blind eye to their side but waste hours babbling about the other.Iaculus said:Me, I prefer scientific scepticism. Then again, that's probably a slant in and of itself...Futureking said:Apathy is the best form of neutrality, eh?JCM said:Aww, to be fair its always amazing how things like religion and political inclination can make one so blind to anything but what he believes in.Krisken said:
But then you guys have given me much entertainment, with hopes of a drawn-out war and increased terrorism, so nowadays I just
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Krisken
Krisken
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Krisken
Krisken
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Krisken
Krisken
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Troll
Troll
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Krisken
Krisken
#209
Troll
Troll
Okay, having checked out the links you've provided I vote sad state of our media. I think it's pathetic the way that they have to ambush people, and still edit the hell out of the segment, just to frame things in the most favorable way. Of course, I don't consider O'Reilly a journalist. Same goes for any partisan mouthpiece, from Coulter and Limbaugh to Olbermann and Franken. They're all no better than slimy shock jocks on morning radio.Krisken said:
#210
Espy
Espy
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Krisken
Krisken
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Dieb
Dieb
#213
Covar
Covar
#214
@Li3n
@Li3n
#215
Shakey
Shakey
So a blogger takes some comments that O'Reilly made out of context to try to make him look bad. O'Reilly gets mad and his producer does a surprise interview with her and takes her comments out of context to make her look bad. Blogger is now mad that O'Reilly is unfair.
I'm not a fan of O'Reilly, but they are both idiots.
I'm not a fan of O'Reilly, but they are both idiots.
#216
Krisken
Krisken
Wait, what did the blogger take out of context?Shakey said:So a blogger takes some comments that O'Reilly made out of context to try to make him look bad. O'Reilly gets mad and his producer does a surprise interview with her and takes her comments out of context to make her look bad. Blogger is now mad that O'Reilly is unfair.
I'm not a fan of O'Reilly, but they are both idiots.
#217
Shakey
Shakey
The blogger was trying to say that O'Reilly was blaming the girl for getting raped. That wasn't the point he was trying to make.Krisken said:Wait, what did the blogger take out of context?Shakey said:So a blogger takes some comments that O'Reilly made out of context to try to make him look bad. O'Reilly gets mad and his producer does a surprise interview with her and takes her comments out of context to make her look bad. Blogger is now mad that O'Reilly is unfair.
I'm not a fan of O'Reilly, but they are both idiots.
#218
Krisken
Krisken
What was the point he was trying to make? I can watch that segment again, and I swear, it's going to look like that to me.Shakey said:The blogger was trying to say that O'Reilly was blaming the girl for getting raped. That wasn't the point he was trying to make.Krisken said:Wait, what did the blogger take out of context?Shakey said:So a blogger takes some comments that O'Reilly made out of context to try to make him look bad. O'Reilly gets mad and his producer does a surprise interview with her and takes her comments out of context to make her look bad. Blogger is now mad that O'Reilly is unfair.
I'm not a fan of O'Reilly, but they are both idiots.
There's the whole thing. What context was he going for?
#219
Shakey
Shakey
#220
Krisken
Krisken
#221
Shakey
Shakey
#222
Dieb
Dieb
#223
Shakey
Shakey
#224
GasBandit
GasBandit
#225
Dieb
Dieb
#226
Iaculus
aranoid:
... outside?
Iaculus
Go...Dieb said:
aranoid: ... outside?
#227
Espy
Espy
You shut your dirty whore mouth. :explode:Iaculus said:Go...Dieb said:
... outside?
#228
F
Futureking
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv0HdpQvMBI:1vwejvx1][/youtube:1vwejvx1]
F
Futureking
Let the derailment begin.Espy said:You shut your dirty * mouth. :explode:Iaculus said:Go...Dieb said:
... outside?
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv0HdpQvMBI:1vwejvx1][/youtube:1vwejvx1]
#230
Espy
Espy
#231
Iaculus
Iaculus
#232
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
#233
Krisken
Krisken
#234
Lamont
Lamont
#235
Iaculus
... Uh huh.
Iaculus
Gruebeard said:
... Uh huh.
#236
Covar
Covar
#237
Shakey
Shakey
Quick, someone photoshop the Halforum mug on there.Iaculus said:Gruebeard said:
... Uh huh.
#238
GasBandit
GasBandit
#239
Krisken
Krisken
#240
Covar
Covar
and they're even dated the same
#241
JCM
JCM
OOh Fox, you murder me!
#242
Krisken
Krisken
"Enquiring minds want to know!"JCM said:OOh Fox, you murder me!
#243
JCM
JCM
Now for Gasbandit-
#244
Krisken
Krisken
#245
Matt²
Matt²
#246
Krisken
Krisken
#247
Matt²
Matt²
#248
Krisken
Krisken
#249
Covar
Covar
#250
Matt²
and no, not trolling, just opinionating, because the topic happens to be lupus!
Matt²
FTFYCovar said:
and no, not trolling, just opinionating, because the topic happens to be lupus!
#251
Krisken
Krisken
Covar, that doesn't say what he said.Covar said:
#252
Matt²
Matt²
#253
Krisken
Krisken
#254
Covar
But seriously Its been pretty obvious the government was going to start telling GM, Chrysler what to do ever since they and Ford grabbed their ankles and asked Capitol Hill for help.
[EDIT] I retracted the quote smilies. Ford, GM, and Chrysler probably thought they would get help from Uncle Sam.
Covar
I should hope not its a search result list.Krisken said:Covar, that doesn't say what he said.Covar said:
But seriously Its been pretty obvious the government was going to start telling GM, Chrysler what to do ever since they and Ford grabbed their ankles and asked Capitol Hill for help.
[EDIT] I retracted the quote smilies. Ford, GM, and Chrysler probably thought they would get help from Uncle Sam.
#255
JCM
JCM
#256
GasBandit
GasBandit
#257
Dieb
Dieb
Thought that was an interesting article. Clearly, there's a line of how far Congress can go in giving the executive the power to shape Congresses laws. I did think it was funny that George Will doesn't actually give any reasons for TARP going over that line. Instead, he just calls it unconstitutional without backing that assertion up. *sigh*GasBandit said:
Anyone who read Krugman in the primaries? Seriously, the guy has never really liked Obama. Although the reason he doesn't like him is because Obama's policies are not leftist enough, which is probably not something you'd agree with, Gas
#258
GasBandit
GasBandit
#259
Krisken
Krisken
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Shakey
Shakey
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Krisken
Krisken
#263
crono1224
.
crono1224
You are about 3 hours to early, at least with my clock, and that made me sadFutureking said:
.
#265
JCM
JCM
#266
Iaculus
Iaculus
#267
Anubinomicon
Anubinomicon
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Iaculus
Iaculus
#270
Espy
Espy
#271
GasBandit
GasBandit
#272
Dieb
Dieb
#273
Krisken
Get it through your heads, morons. Crooked tactics to catch crooked politicians is not acceptable.
Krisken
This is so irritating. The guy was so obviously guilty, the justice department had to go out of their way to dumb-fucker it up. I swear to christ, what's the point of trying to hold people accountable for their actions if you can't follow the proper procedures?GasBandit said:
Get it through your heads, morons. Crooked tactics to catch crooked politicians is not acceptable.
#274
GasBandit
GasBandit
#275
Krisken
Krisken
#276
Dieb
Dieb
#277
Krisken
Krisken
#278
Dieb
But in reality, I'm pretty much a moderate. I probably would have voted for Reagan, for example (I can't say for sure because I wasn't alive for either of his elections, so it's not like I know the all the issues from back then, etc etc). But as it is, it seems the Republicans do at least two things a day that just make me howl with laughter. Here's the second one for today: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... more-46361
Money quote: "'The Alaska Republican Party…believes that current Senator Mark Begich should resign his position to allow for a new, special election, so Alaskans may have the chance to vote for a senator without the improper influence of the corrupt Department of Justice,' the Alaska Republican Party's Web site states."
I mean....seriously? The "corrupt" Department of Justice? Even I wouldn't call the Department of Justice corrupt under Bush....to suggest that it was somehow corrupt against Republicans is, well, crazy. Someday sane Republicans will regain control of their party....I hope. Someday.
Dieb
Exactly! I really, really want a vialble alternative to the Dems. I probably come off as pretty liberal on this board, but at heart I'm a contrarian. Someone needs to argue with GasKrisken said:
But in reality, I'm pretty much a moderate. I probably would have voted for Reagan, for example (I can't say for sure because I wasn't alive for either of his elections, so it's not like I know the all the issues from back then, etc etc). But as it is, it seems the Republicans do at least two things a day that just make me howl with laughter. Here's the second one for today: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... more-46361Money quote: "'The Alaska Republican Party…believes that current Senator Mark Begich should resign his position to allow for a new, special election, so Alaskans may have the chance to vote for a senator without the improper influence of the corrupt Department of Justice,' the Alaska Republican Party's Web site states."
I mean....seriously? The "corrupt" Department of Justice? Even I wouldn't call the Department of Justice corrupt under Bush....to suggest that it was somehow corrupt against Republicans is, well, crazy. Someday sane Republicans will regain control of their party....I hope. Someday.
#279
Krisken
Krisken
#280
GasBandit
GasBandit
By coincidence, Newt is saying that republicans could be seeing a mass defection to a 3rd party in 2012.
White house report says that government holding a gun to GM's head and forcing them to make "green" cars is one of the reasons they won't recover.
There is a little brouhaha right now in Georgia over proposed legislation that would require that new drivers take a written license test in English. Why should there be an argument over this? Aren't the traffic signs in English?
Congress balks at Obama's Cap and Trade proposal.
Guess who is still going to have his hand in government healthcare reform? Tom Daschle.
Afghanistan has legalized marital rape.
A federal judge has barred the district attorney of Wyoming County, Pa. from prosecuting three teen girls on felony child pornography charges for "sexting" nude photos of themselves. So there's still a teensy bit of sanity left in the system.
A family leaves Michigan every 12 minutes.
BEING SICK IS JESUS SPANKING YOU FOR BEING NAUGHTY LOL
BETTER GET SOME PRAYING DONE, SICKY
White house report says that government holding a gun to GM's head and forcing them to make "green" cars is one of the reasons they won't recover.
There is a little brouhaha right now in Georgia over proposed legislation that would require that new drivers take a written license test in English. Why should there be an argument over this? Aren't the traffic signs in English?
Congress balks at Obama's Cap and Trade proposal.
Guess who is still going to have his hand in government healthcare reform? Tom Daschle.
Afghanistan has legalized marital rape.
A federal judge has barred the district attorney of Wyoming County, Pa. from prosecuting three teen girls on felony child pornography charges for "sexting" nude photos of themselves. So there's still a teensy bit of sanity left in the system.
A family leaves Michigan every 12 minutes.
BEING SICK IS JESUS SPANKING YOU FOR BEING NAUGHTY LOL
BETTER GET SOME PRAYING DONE, SICKY
#281
Iaculus
Iaculus
#282
GasBandit
decades ago.
GasBandit
Well, technically, the Libertarians already haveIaculus said:
decades ago.
#284
Iaculus
Iaculus
Well, yeah, but I meant the second batch. No capital L.GasBandit said:Well, technically, the Libertarians already haveIaculus said:
#285
Dieb
Dieb
Yea, charging underage girls for taking pictures of themselves really is amazingly stupid.GasBandit said:
Picture of Jesus spanking young girl = HAAAAWWWWTT
Wait, what? Malaysia is not a NATO member. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_NATO) Of course, that only strengthens your point. But after reading that, I had to look it up, so I thought I'd share my findings with everyone else
#286
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
#287
F
Futureking
..My nation's history syllabus is obsolete.
http://www.hmceurope.org/2009/docs/guid ... he_G15.pdf
F
Futureking
Right. I got that. Apparently, it's called the Non-Alignment Movement, which was established in the cold war. Members of this group do not ally with either side. It's obsolete since the cold war no longer exists. It's called the G-15 now.Dieb said:Wait, what? Malaysia is not a NATO member. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_NATO) Of course, that only strengthens your point. But after reading that, I had to look it up, so I thought I'd share my findings with everyone else
..My nation's history syllabus is obsolete.
http://www.hmceurope.org/2009/docs/guid ... he_G15.pdf
#288
Krisken
Krisken
#289
GasBandit
GasBandit
#290
Anubinomicon
Anubinomicon
#291
Krisken
Krisken
#292
Covar
Covar
#293
Krisken
Krisken
#294
GasBandit
GasBandit
Accepting the assertions of that article at face value, it was a failure of school certification and accounting practices that imploded their voucher program. Apparently schools were overreporting the number of students they had so they could get more money. It's a little funny, I remember my public high school teachers at one point browbeating students all to coming in on a certain monday, because that was the day when headcount was taken for funding. It also goes on a wild tangent about catholic schools. The failures of the Milwaukee school system were not inherent to vouchers, they were already present in the milwaukee school systemKrisken said:
#295
Krisken
Krisken
#296
GasBandit
GasBandit
#297
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090406/ap_ ... nFYEkDW7oF
Great, the Secretary of Defense Gates wants to cut several major weapons systems that are in the works. The one that irks me is the loss of the F-22 Raptor. Now the Russians will have a better Air Superiority fighter than the US.i:
Not to mention next gen spy satellites, and a replacement for our 50 year old tankers for the Air Force are getting axed too.
Great, the Secretary of Defense Gates wants to cut several major weapons systems that are in the works. The one that irks me is the loss of the F-22 Raptor. Now the Russians will have a better Air Superiority fighter than the US.
i: Not to mention next gen spy satellites, and a replacement for our 50 year old tankers for the Air Force are getting axed too.
#298
Dieb
Dieb
Interesting. It would be better if they ranked them by percentage of income taxed though, that would seem more relevent.GasBandit said:
Did you read the article? Obama isn't doing this all by himself, he's calling for the Antarctic Treaty (which has 28 member states and 19 observing nations and orginizations) to be amended at the next meeting of the members, which is in Baltimore this month.
Agreed. It makes no sense for alcohol, but not pot, to be legal.
Oh please. First of all, we'll still have about 200 Raptors. Secondly, what Russian jet could compete with the F-35? Which is nearly as good as the F-22, but not nearly as expensive.sixpackshaker said:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090406/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/defense_budget;_ylt=Al1zgR289VZ1028BVGnFYEkDW7oF
Great, the Secretary of Defense Gates wants to cut several major weapons systems that are in the works. The one that irks me is the loss of the F-22 Raptor. Now the Russians will have a better Air Superiority fighter than the US.
Not to mention next gen spy satellites, and a replacement for our 50 year old tankers for the Air Force are getting axed too.
#299
Krisken
Krisken
#300
Bubble181
Bubble181
#301
Krisken
Krisken
#302
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#303
JCM
JCM
#304
Krisken
Krisken
#305
JCM
JCM
#306
Lamont
Lamont
We'll happily have you, dude.JCM said:
#307
GasBandit
GasBandit
#308
Krisken
Krisken
#310
GasBandit
GasBandit
#311
Krisken
Stop acting like Democrats are somehow unable to hear veterans. It's a sad, tired pile of B.S.
Edit: I really shouldn't allow myself to get riled up, but this is one of those things that really gets on my nerves. Nationalism is not patriotism.
-- Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:28 am --
Obama claims government secrecy in wiretapping claim. Dammit all. As put by Glenn Greenwald-
Krisken
Don't start a fight you can't win, bud. For all the bluster by Republicans in how they "support the troops", the last 8 years has been nothing but sabotaging veterans benefits and the disgusting no bid contracts given to companies who allow our soldiers to get shocked by faulty wiring. Add to that Senator Burr blocking the nomination of Tammy Duckworth, a decorated double amputee and director of Veterans affairs in Illinois for 2 years, without giving a reason.Futureking said:
Stop acting like Democrats are somehow unable to hear veterans. It's a sad, tired pile of B.S.
Edit: I really shouldn't allow myself to get riled up, but this is one of those things that really gets on my nerves. Nationalism is not patriotism.
-- Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:28 am --
Obama claims government secrecy in wiretapping claim.
Dammit all. As put by Glenn Greenwald-Glenn Greenwald said:
#312
F
Futureking
For the sake of argument, what will the government do about the downsized..ahem...*discharged* soldiers should the military budget be cut? Give them pensions/unemployment benefits?
There's re-training for other possible jobs. But firms aren't going to hire a person who was recently trained over another person with a few years of industry experience.
Edit: I'm not using this to justify maintaining the budget. I'm just saying the government better have a real plan for the newly discharged troops rather than just toss money at them and let them idle about.
Oh, and on wiretapping? I'll repeat the same old argument. If you aren't doing something wrong or particularly suspicious, you have no real reason to fear.
F
Futureking
Nationalism isn't patriotism. Much as I'm partial to the right wing, I'm not altogether heartless....yet.Krisken said:Edit: I really shouldn't allow myself to get riled up, but this is one of those things that really gets on my nerves. Nationalism is not patriotism.
-- Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:28 am --
Obama claims government secrecy in wiretapping claim.
Glenn Greenwald said:
For the sake of argument, what will the government do about the downsized..ahem...*discharged* soldiers should the military budget be cut? Give them pensions/unemployment benefits?
There's re-training for other possible jobs. But firms aren't going to hire a person who was recently trained over another person with a few years of industry experience.
Edit: I'm not using this to justify maintaining the budget. I'm just saying the government better have a real plan for the newly discharged troops rather than just toss money at them and let them idle about.
Oh, and on wiretapping? I'll repeat the same old argument. If you aren't doing something wrong or particularly suspicious, you have no real reason to fear.
#313
Krisken
As for wiretapping- The point is that we are supposed to be free from government intrusion as per the 4th amendment.
Krisken
What downsizing? Troops aren't being downsized and there really isn't talk of doing so(though I think recruitment should be decreased and bases across the world shut down, that's neither here nor there). Money spent on defense rose by $20 billionFutureking said:Nationalism isn't patriotism. Much as I'm partial to the right wing, I'm not altogether heartless....yet.Krisken said:Edit: I really shouldn't allow myself to get riled up, but this is one of those things that really gets on my nerves. Nationalism is not patriotism.
-- Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:28 am --
Obama claims government secrecy in wiretapping claim.
Glenn Greenwald said:
For the sake of argument, what will the government do about the downsized..ahem...*discharged* soldiers should the military budget be cut? Give them pensions/unemployment benefits?
There's re-training for other possible jobs. But firms aren't going to hire a person who was recently trained over another person with a few years of industry experience.
Edit: I'm not using this to justify maintaining the budget. I'm just saying the government better have a real plan for the newly discharged troops rather than just toss money at them and let them idle about.
Oh, and on wiretapping? I'll repeat the same old argument. If you aren't doing something wrong or particularly suspicious, you have no real reason to fear.
As for wiretapping- The point is that we are supposed to be free from government intrusion as per the 4th amendment.
I fear for a world where it is ok to surrender this right. Just as the right to bare arms and the right to free speech.The Fourth Amendment wrote said:
#314
GasBandit
GasBandit
#315
Krisken
Krisken
#316
Shakey
Shakey
#317
Krisken
Krisken
#318
Shakey
Shakey
#319
Dieb
Dieb
#320
GasBandit
GasBandit
Or, VOIP for the win
#321
Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
Until they shut down those pesky interwebs :slywink:GasBandit said:Or, VOIP for the win
#322
GasBandit
GasBandit
#323
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#324
GasBandit
GasBandit
Al Sharpton has decided to call for Sheriff Arpaio's resignation.
Attorney General Eric Holder has his latest marching orders from the Senate: sue any states that aren't helping the needy register to vote.
Colorado is considering a bill that would create a single-payer healthcare plan. The bill would establish a 23-member commission that would design a universal health insurance system. The bill itself does not include funding for the authority, which means that it would have to rely on private donations in order to function.
A Chinese national is smuggling nuclear weapons materials to Iran from New York banks?
Reality hits the Obama Express.
What we learned from Obama's Spring Break
UN climate talks have stalled because richer countries can't agree to cut carbon emissions and poorer countries want more money.
Jonah Goldberg says that Obama's worst bailout thus far has been that of the United Nations Human Rights Council.
Attorney General Eric Holder has his latest marching orders from the Senate: sue any states that aren't helping the needy register to vote.
Colorado is considering a bill that would create a single-payer healthcare plan. The bill would establish a 23-member commission that would design a universal health insurance system. The bill itself does not include funding for the authority, which means that it would have to rely on private donations in order to function.
A Chinese national is smuggling nuclear weapons materials to Iran from New York banks?
Reality hits the Obama Express.
What we learned from Obama's Spring Break
UN climate talks have stalled because richer countries can't agree to cut carbon emissions and poorer countries want more money.
Jonah Goldberg says that Obama's worst bailout thus far has been that of the United Nations Human Rights Council.
#325
Krisken
Krisken
#326
Espy
aranoid:
What?
Espy
Hey, I loved him in Superbad.Krisken said:
aranoid: What?
#327
Krisken
Krisken
I deleted my stupidity. Now I'm looking at the actor list of Superbad actors.Espy said:Hey, I loved him in Superbad.Krisken said:
What?
#328
Espy
Espy
I was just joking since his name sounds like Jonah HillKrisken said:I deleted my stupidity. Now I'm looking at the actor list of Superbad actors.Espy said:Hey, I loved him in Superbad.Krisken said:
What?
#329
Krisken
Krisken
Yeah, I put 2 and 2 together and erased my original answer of 5.Espy said:I was just joking since his name sounds like Jonah HillKrisken said:I deleted my stupidity. Now I'm looking at the actor list of Superbad actors.Espy said:Hey, I loved him in Superbad.Krisken said:
What?
#330
Covar
Covar
#331
Krisken
Krisken
#332
GasBandit
GasBandit
#333
Iaculus
Iaculus
#334
Shakey
Shakey
#335
Troll
Noble intention, moronic execution. They're going about it all the wrong way.
Troll
GasBandit said:
Noble intention, moronic execution. They're going about it all the wrong way.
#336
Espy
Espy
#337
Krisken
Krisken
#338
Krisken
Wow, why would anybody vote for Spencer Bachus? Channeling McCarthy, he has made a secret list of members of the House who are "Socialists".
Kooky.
Krisken
Wow, why would anybody vote for Spencer Bachus? Channeling McCarthy, he has made a secret list of members of the House who are "Socialists".Kooky.
#339
Dieb
Dieb
First of all....oh Texas *sighs* But secondly, come on, we all know FDR started the welfare state, even if it was LBJ who greatly expanded itGasBandit said:
Wow. Just....wow. It's not like we're having a problem with the military might that these pirates have. When we find a pirate ship, they just surrender. The problem is not being able to tell which ships are used by the pirates until they've boarded civilian ships and therefore have hostages, in which case F-22s would be worse than useless.Krisken said:
#340
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#341
Iaculus
Iaculus
#342
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#343
Iaculus
Iaculus
#344
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#345
Krisken
Krisken
#346
Shakey
Shakey
#348
Shakey
Shakey
#349
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
#350
#351
GasBandit
GasBandit
#352
Espy
Espy
#353
Dieb
Dieb
#354
GasBandit
GasBandit
#355
Espy
Espy
#356
Krisken
Krisken
I can haz biased Opinion Piece too?
Homeland Security Report: Rising Right Wing Extremism.
This is my gust from the left to keep people from being blown off their feet by the windstorm on the right
Homeland Security Report: Rising Right Wing Extremism.
This is my gust from the left to keep people from being blown off their feet by the windstorm on the right
#357
Espy
Espy
OMG reading the comments on that site just broke my brain. :bush:Krisken said:I can haz biased Opinion Piece too?
Homeland Security Report: Rising Right Wing Extremism.
This is my gust from the left to keep people from being blown off their feet by the windstorm on the right
#358
Krisken
Krisken
Yyyyeeaahhhh, I don't. They hurt me too. Just like reading from any site that supplies information of a political nature, honestly. I once read the comments on ABC News, and I was shocked by how much vitriol there was.Espy said:OMG reading the comments on that site just broke my brain. :bush:Krisken said:I can haz biased Opinion Piece too?
Homeland Security Report: Rising Right Wing Extremism.
This is my gust from the left to keep people from being blown off their feet by the windstorm on the right
#359
Dieb
I would agree that the private sector is mostly more efficient than the Feds, but not always. This case falls under the "not always". You see, this program is a classic case of socializing the risks, privatizing the costs. The Feds subsidize the program by paying any remaining debt owed if a student defaults. So the private companies basically can't lose money - they get paid back one way or the other. Why should the government be engaging in corporate welfare of this type?
Moreover, the government also does directly loan some money to students. So we can compare direct loads to subsidized private loans. And it turns out, the CBO did a study that showed that administration costs of the direct loan program were actually LOWER (http://www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-e ... ffel-10775). The only argument I've heard against eliminating the subsidized loans and doing all direct loans is that some of these private companies are located in powerful Congresspeople's districts. Hardly a good argument. I would love to read an actual, numbers based argument for the current program, but I doubt it exists. All the evidence I've seen points to the subsidize loans simply being wasteful.
But the response of the Right to this report has been HIL-FUCKING-ARIOUS. After seven years of arguing the Executive Branch has unlimited authority to ignore the privacy of ordinary Americans - saying that if people have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear, amoung other things - they've gone apeshit after that authority has been used on people like them. And this report was written under Bush - it's not like this is a Left-wing conspiracy to demonize the Right.
No, it's simply the inevitable consequence of giving the government way too much power. Hopefully, finally, the party arguing for smaller government will finally realize that the ability to wiretap anyone's phone is not exactly "small government". I doubt it though. It looks like pure hypocracy. I mean, Michelle Malkin wrote a book saying that the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII was great policy, and has obviously been a cheerleader for the worst excesses of the Bush administration - but suddenly is worried about the police state when it shreads the rights of people like her. Anyway, here's a good roundup of the response to the report: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... veillance/
Dieb
The Federal Government will decide, based purely on the prospective student's and their parent's income, as they have done since the program was started in 1965. It's a pretty good system; not perfect, of course, I'm sure there are ways to game the system a bit, but truely many, MANY students have managed to go to college because of this program.GasBandit said:
I would agree that the private sector is mostly more efficient than the Feds, but not always. This case falls under the "not always". You see, this program is a classic case of socializing the risks, privatizing the costs. The Feds subsidize the program by paying any remaining debt owed if a student defaults. So the private companies basically can't lose money - they get paid back one way or the other. Why should the government be engaging in corporate welfare of this type?
Moreover, the government also does directly loan some money to students. So we can compare direct loads to subsidized private loans. And it turns out, the CBO did a study that showed that administration costs of the direct loan program were actually LOWER (http://www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-e ... ffel-10775). The only argument I've heard against eliminating the subsidized loans and doing all direct loans is that some of these private companies are located in powerful Congresspeople's districts. Hardly a good argument. I would love to read an actual, numbers based argument for the current program, but I doubt it exists. All the evidence I've seen points to the subsidize loans simply being wasteful.
While there were some rumblings about another stimulus program (from Nancy Pelosi amoung others) I haven't heard anything on that front in weeks, and I've never heard Obama propose it.
Oh don't worry too much, I don't wear it that often, I'm not much of a hat person
Kim Jon Il is just so roooooonely.
Yea, that report has stirred up a hornet's nest of hilarity. First of all; I do no approve of the report. The Federal government needs to be keeping an eye on domestic terroism, this is true. It can come from either side of the political spectrum - Eco-terrorists and wannabe-McVeighs alike. But in both this report, and others like it about Left-wingers, they go far beyond the justified monitoring of dangerous people to shredding the Fourth Amendment rights of innocent American citizens - even if those citizens are on the fringes.
But the response of the Right to this report has been HIL-FUCKING-ARIOUS. After seven years of arguing the Executive Branch has unlimited authority to ignore the privacy of ordinary Americans - saying that if people have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear, amoung other things - they've gone apeshit after that authority has been used on people like them. And this report was written under Bush - it's not like this is a Left-wing conspiracy to demonize the Right.
No, it's simply the inevitable consequence of giving the government way too much power. Hopefully, finally, the party arguing for smaller government will finally realize that the ability to wiretap anyone's phone is not exactly "small government". I doubt it though. It looks like pure hypocracy. I mean, Michelle Malkin wrote a book saying that the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII was great policy, and has obviously been a cheerleader for the worst excesses of the Bush administration - but suddenly is worried about the police state when it shreads the rights of people like her. Anyway, here's a good roundup of the response to the report: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... veillance/
#360
Shakey
Shakey
#362
GasBandit
GasBandit
I'd just like to stop for a moment for this bipartisan message:
Dennis Kucinich's wife is freakin' smokin' hot.
Thank you. Now, back to the regularly scheduled program.
The somali pirates attempted to attack another american ship but failed. Four other ships weren't as lucky.
Matt Lauer doesn't like the idea of Goldman Sachs paying back its bailout money just so government doesn't own and run it any more.
GM acknowledges the Chevy Volt is a financial loser.
What the UN does with US money
An oil chief has warned that US green policies are likely to turn American into "the world's cleanest third world country."
China says that thousands of dolphins blocked Somali pirate ships from attacking Chinese merchant ships passing the Gulf of Aden.rly:
Dennis Kucinich's wife is freakin' smokin' hot.
Thank you. Now, back to the regularly scheduled program.
The somali pirates attempted to attack another american ship but failed. Four other ships weren't as lucky.
Matt Lauer doesn't like the idea of Goldman Sachs paying back its bailout money just so government doesn't own and run it any more.
GM acknowledges the Chevy Volt is a financial loser.
What the UN does with US money
An oil chief has warned that US green policies are likely to turn American into "the world's cleanest third world country."
China says that thousands of dolphins blocked Somali pirate ships from attacking Chinese merchant ships passing the Gulf of Aden.
rly:
#363
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
I think this bill will pass quite easily, GB.GasBandit said:I'd just like to stop for a moment for this bipartisan message:
Dennis Kucinich's wife is freakin' smokin' hot.
Good work on the Navy saving those people. Does anyone know what other countries have warships in the area like the article says? The US and French, obviously, but who are the others? (GB's last link seems to suggest China)
Was Goldman one of the ones who helped cause the problem (like Lauer claims)? I was under the impression that they (more or less) kept their noses out of the risky securities in question. Even if you make the argument that they helped contribute to the Wall Street culture that created the meltdown (which is true enough IMHO), I don't see how their refusal to take public money to fix problems they don't have can possibly be a bad thing.
#364
The Lovely Boehner
The Lovely Boehner
#365
GasBandit
GasBandit
#366
Yoink
Yoink
#367
Matt²
Matt²
#368
Krisken
Krisken
Maybe with the NSA wiretapping a Congressman without a warrent our representatives will take it seriously.
#369
Espy
Espy
Couldn't Big "O" do something about this? NPR did a story tonight on how he's simply pushing harder down the Bush path for big intrusive government according to human rights/civil rights groups... seems like maybe the peeps who elected him need to get on the horn to Washington.Krisken said:Maybe with the NSA wiretapping a Congressman without a warrent our representatives will take it seriously.
#370
Krisken
Hopefully enough people raise hell and get him to wake up on this issue.
Krisken
This is one of those areas where Obama has been defending the Bush administration, much to my chagrin.Espy said:Couldn't Big "O" do something about this? NPR did a story tonight on how he's simply pushing harder down the Bush path for big intrusive government according to human rights/civil rights groups... seems like maybe the peeps who elected him need to get on the horn to Washington.Krisken said:Maybe with the NSA wiretapping a Congressman without a warrent our representatives will take it seriously.
Hopefully enough people raise hell and get him to wake up on this issue.
#371
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
#372
Matt²
Matt²
#373
Krisken
Krisken
#374
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
#375
Matt²
Matt²
#376
Krisken
Krisken
#377
Matt²
Matt²
#378
Krisken
Krisken
#379
Matt²
Matt²
#380
Krisken
Krisken
#381
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#382
Matt²
Matt²
#383
Troll
Troll
#384
Shakey
Shakey
I don't think Obama ever really spoke out against this stuff. When the shit hit the fan about ATT giving the Gov't anything they wanted he didn't speak out against giving telco's immunity, he didn't even show up for the vote to voice an opinion. But it's the governments responsibility to keep us safe, so we should be willing to let them do what they want to do that. Who cares if a few innocent people get caught in the cross fire, it will save a few other innocent people.Espy said:Couldn't Big "O" do something about this? NPR did a story tonight on how he's simply pushing harder down the Bush path for big intrusive government according to human rights/civil rights groups... seems like maybe the peeps who elected him need to get on the horn to Washington.Krisken said:Maybe with the NSA wiretapping a Congressman without a warrent our representatives will take it seriously.
#385
Troll
Troll
#386
Krisken
Krisken
#387
Matt²
Matt²
#388
Shakey
Shakey
#389
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
#391
Krisken
Krisken
#393
GasBandit
Hello, Republican from 2000 and 2004. Nice to meet you.
GasBandit
DarkAudit said:
Hello, Republican from 2000 and 2004. Nice to meet you.
#394
Krisken
Yeah, because the election events of 2008 is even comparable to the events of 2000. :eyeroll:
Krisken
GasBandit said:DarkAudit said:
Hello, Republican from 2000 and 2004. Nice to meet you.
Yeah, because the election events of 2008 is even comparable to the events of 2000. :eyeroll:
#395
GasBandit
GasBandit
Janet Napolitano is standing by the DHS report on rightwing extremism.
Al Sharpton calls the goons hijacking ships off the coast of Africa "so-called pirates." Otherwise known as Somalia's "voluntary Coast Guard."
We have yet another czar to add to our list in the Obama administration. This time we are getting a "border czar" to oversee efforts to end drug-cartel violence along the U.S.-Mexico border. Heh, how many czars before we're russia, eh?
Did you know that our Defense Secretary Robert Gates denied permission use the Pentagon's most powerful sea-based radar to monitor North Korea's recent missile launch? On orders from Obama?
North Korea's kicking out the nuke inspectors.
Sarkozy's not impressed with the Obamanator.
Iran is complaining to the UN Security Council about Israel's threats to launch an attack.
Pennsylvania had a new $5 million tax-credit program to encourage companies to hire ex-convicts. There were no takers.
Protesting is one thing, but when it becomes a mob preventing someone from communicating their ideas, you cease to be the good guys. The left is just as intolerant of opposing ideas as the most fundie of fundies.
-- Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:46 am --
The rhetoric is exactly the same, just mirrored.
Al Sharpton calls the goons hijacking ships off the coast of Africa "so-called pirates." Otherwise known as Somalia's "voluntary Coast Guard."
We have yet another czar to add to our list in the Obama administration. This time we are getting a "border czar" to oversee efforts to end drug-cartel violence along the U.S.-Mexico border. Heh, how many czars before we're russia, eh?
Did you know that our Defense Secretary Robert Gates denied permission use the Pentagon's most powerful sea-based radar to monitor North Korea's recent missile launch? On orders from Obama?
North Korea's kicking out the nuke inspectors.
Sarkozy's not impressed with the Obamanator.
Iran is complaining to the UN Security Council about Israel's threats to launch an attack.
Pennsylvania had a new $5 million tax-credit program to encourage companies to hire ex-convicts. There were no takers.
Protesting is one thing, but when it becomes a mob preventing someone from communicating their ideas, you cease to be the good guys. The left is just as intolerant of opposing ideas as the most fundie of fundies.
-- Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:46 am --
Krisken said:GasBandit said:DarkAudit said:
Hello, Republican from 2000 and 2004. Nice to meet you.
Yeah, because the election events of 2008 is even comparable to the events of 2000. :eyeroll:
The rhetoric is exactly the same, just mirrored.
#396
Krisken
Rhetoric without context has no meaning.
Edited to fix one letter.
Krisken
GasBandit said:Janet Napolitano is standing by the DHS report on rightwing extremism.
Al Sharpton calls the goons hijacking ships off the coast of Africa "so-called pirates." Otherwise known as Somalia's "voluntary Coast Guard."
We have yet another czar to add to our list in the Obama administration. This time we are getting a "border czar" to oversee efforts to end drug-cartel violence along the U.S.-Mexico border. Heh, how many czars before we're russia, eh?
Did you know that our Defense Secretary Robert Gates denied permission use the Pentagon's most powerful sea-based radar to monitor North Korea's recent missile launch? On orders from Obama?
North Korea's kicking out the nuke inspectors.
Sarkozy's not impressed with the Obamanator.
Iran is complaining to the UN Security Council about Israel's threats to launch an attack.
Pennsylvania had a new $5 million tax-credit program to encourage companies to hire ex-convicts. There were no takers.
Protesting is one thing, but when it becomes a mob preventing someone from communicating their ideas, you cease to be the good guys. The left is just as intolerant of opposing ideas as the most fundie of fundies.
-- Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:46 am --
Krisken said:GasBandit said:DarkAudit said:
Hello, Republican from 2000 and 2004. Nice to meet you.
Yeah, because the election events of 2008 is even comparable to the events of 2000. :eyeroll:
The rhetoric is exactly the same, just mirrored.
Rhetoric without context has no meaning.
Edited to fix one letter.
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SpecialKO
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Espy
Espy
Kris, I'm really surprised to see you defending DA on his little screeching rant. Seems like the kind of incendiary attitude that you are usually against... maybe cause he's on your side it's ok? :heythere: I hope not, you have always seemed above that kind of thing...
And really, DA? You should drink some tea. Your blood pressure must be through the roof. Or at the very leastaranoid: smoke up.
And really, DA? You should drink some tea. Your blood pressure must be through the roof. Or at the very least
aranoid: smoke up.
#401
Krisken
I do, however, understand the frustration regarding the 2000 election. Even trying to compare the 2000 election to 2008 ignores the history involved and circumstances that enveloped these two elections. The 2000 election cycle was dubious at best. 2004 was won fairly (politically, that is) by Bush.
Krisken
Nah, not really defending DA. I didn't realize we had sidesEspy said:Kris, I'm really surprised to see you defending DA on his little screeching rant. Seems like the kind of incendiary attitude that you are usually against... maybe cause he's on your side it's ok? :heythere: I hope not, you have always seemed above that kind of thing...
And really, DA? You should drink some tea. Your blood pressure must be through the roof. Or at the very least
I do, however, understand the frustration regarding the 2000 election. Even trying to compare the 2000 election to 2008 ignores the history involved and circumstances that enveloped these two elections. The 2000 election cycle was dubious at best. 2004 was won fairly (politically, that is) by Bush.
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Matt²
Matt²
cartoon from 1934
pretty much speaks for itself.
pretty much speaks for itself.
#421
Krisken
"To the extent veterans read it as an accusation ... an apology is owed,"
Sorta reads as 'I'm sorry you don't know what I mean'.
I hope those guys get fired/charged.
Just out of curiosity, is the school considered private property?
Krisken
No surprise here. It's unfortunate, but they are partially to blame, along with the financial institutions and those responsible for deregulating the banks.GasBandit said:
Yeah, that was a sorta apology, but wasn't.GasBandit said:
"To the extent veterans read it as an accusation ... an apology is owed,"
Sorta reads as 'I'm sorry you don't know what I mean'.
To be fair, the report was ordered, at the same time as the report on left wing extremism, by the Bush Administration. It was followed through by the Obama administration.GasBandit said:
Wow, just wow.GasBandit said:
I hope those guys get fired/charged.Just out of curiosity, is the school considered private property?
This I can understand. Those same people were calling Democrats unpatriotic and unAmerican as recent as a year ago.GasBandit said:
Again, good. This wiretapping business has gone on long enough.GasBandit said:
I'm more interested in those White House council members who advocated torture, such as Yoo, Gonzalez, Feith, Addington. Never happen though. These guys are more slippery than a lesbian mud wrestling match.GasBandit said:
Not much to say here. I understand the job of the union is to protect the jobs of the workers, and the state wants free labor.GasBandit said:
Must be a better place to live. I know if I live in a shitty place, I'm moving where it is nice. What jerks, wanting a better life! Jerks.GasBandit said:
I'm ok with caution.GasBandit said:
Duh? Oh no, people overseeing how the money is spent? I don't understand why this is frowned on. Besides, people are performing jobs to do this, right? There must be something I'm not getting that I'm supposed to be foaming at the mouth over.GasBandit said:
Fucking A. I can't stand government secrecy.GasBandit said:
I can see that. It was against the law to do so.GasBandit said:
I'm happy when Obama is bashed for stupid stuff he has done. News organizations should strive to be as objective as they can. Not that I think Santelli has been objective :slywink:GasBandit said:
#422
SpecialKO
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Yoink
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GasBandit
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Dieb
Moreover, while we weren't talking about direct taxes like income taxes, the government makes it easy for illegals to pay those taxes without revealing their illegal status. Because governments like money, and are willing to overlook little things like your legality to take it
And they aren't basing scholarships or grants based on race or nationality. This bill was about giving in-state tuition to illegal residents of the state. Just the same as any other resident. State colleges, in the United States (just in case you don't know) charge lower tuition to residents of their state. This bill was about expanding that to illegals - not giving them any special benifits.
But if some leftist journalist went to the Fox News headquarters, and tried to interview people, what would happen? He would be thrown out, as he should be. Or, to be closer to the situation, if a leftist journalist was being an ass, trying to interview people at a private party at Liberty College, the college would be well within their right to kick him out.
Dieb
...what? Do you know what sales tax and property tax are? Sales tax is applied to everything you buy - there's no way to get around it (unless you live in a state without a sales tax, woot, go Oregon!...but we were talking about NC). Illegals pay this like anybody else. And assuming that most illegals rent, not own (doesn't seem that controversial of an assumption...) then it's the people who actually own the property who deal with giving the tax money to government. Nonetheless, the illegals will be paying those taxes, albeit indirectly, through their rent (just like any other renter).Futureking said:
Moreover, while we weren't talking about direct taxes like income taxes, the government makes it easy for illegals to pay those taxes without revealing their illegal status. Because governments like money, and are willing to overlook little things like your legality to take it
And they aren't basing scholarships or grants based on race or nationality. This bill was about giving in-state tuition to illegal residents of the state. Just the same as any other resident. State colleges, in the United States (just in case you don't know) charge lower tuition to residents of their state. This bill was about expanding that to illegals - not giving them any special benifits.
Yep. Whoever that cartoonist was, they must have been able to see the future. I mean, he predicted exactly the communist dictatorship that followed the New Deal. I only hope the current crop of people who are warning of socialism and facism are heeded more than that man was.The Neon Grue said:
It's at USC, so yes it is, because USC is a private school. So quite frankly, no, I don't have a problem with that video. A private institution has the right to deny people access to its property, duh. (well, ok, as long as they aren't doing it based on race, which clearly they aren't here). And John Zeigler is being a giant ass in that video. He was doing his absolute utmost to create a scene, so he can cry that he's being persecuted.Krisken said:Wow, just wow.
Just out of curiosity, is the school considered private property?
But if some leftist journalist went to the Fox News headquarters, and tried to interview people, what would happen? He would be thrown out, as he should be. Or, to be closer to the situation, if a leftist journalist was being an ass, trying to interview people at a private party at Liberty College, the college would be well within their right to kick him out.
Ok, now that is pretty damn funny. Altough to be needlessly pedantic because I'm an ass like that, virgins are generally pretty bad in bed, a much better way to make more vigins is to have sex with a more experienced woman...preferably one with a nurses costume or such...GasBandit said:
#427
Krisken
Krisken
Well, damn. Sorry, I'm going to have to side with the university then. I really wanted to give this one to you Gas. If a liberal journalist showed up on the private property of a conservative school and were asked to leave, but wouldn't, they would be treated the same way. Arrested even.Dieb said:It's at USC, so yes it is, because USC is a private school. So quite frankly, no, I don't have a problem with that video. A private institution has the right to deny people access to its property, duh. (well, ok, as long as they aren't doing it based on race, which clearly they aren't here). And John Zeigler is being a giant a** in that video. He was doing his absolute utmost to create a scene, so he can cry that he's being persecuted.Krisken said:Wow, just wow.
Just out of curiosity, is the school considered private property?
But if some leftist journalist went to the Fox News headquarters, and tried to interview people, what would happen? He would be thrown out, as he should be. Or, to be closer to the situation, if a leftist journalist was being an a**, trying to interview people at a private party at Liberty College, the college would be well within their right to kick him out.
#429
Dieb
Dieb
#430
JCM
JCM
#431
JCM
JCM
Looks like we tortured kids too-
http://rawstory.com/08/blog/2009/04/17/ ... -tortured/
And torture is widespread in Iraq.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... digg_share
So, we´ve given Iran a government of Shiites who obey Iran´s will and the ayatollah, we allowed terrorism to take root in Iraq, the Taliban are still killing, and the new Afghan government is slowly starting to be become Taliban-like.
I said it many years ago in three forums back, and I´ll say it again.
The war on terror is just another idiotic middle east meddling that will bite USA back years later (like installing he shah which led the Ayatollah to rise in power, training Osama, arming Saddam and Iran, etc). And with the financial crisis, may I suggest using this?
But, on the other hand, the Franch president is calling the american president a weak wimp. How times have changed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 106250.ece
http://rawstory.com/08/blog/2009/04/17/ ... -tortured/
And torture is widespread in Iraq.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... digg_share
So, we´ve given Iran a government of Shiites who obey Iran´s will and the ayatollah, we allowed terrorism to take root in Iraq, the Taliban are still killing, and the new Afghan government is slowly starting to be become Taliban-like.
I said it many years ago in three forums back, and I´ll say it again.
The war on terror is just another idiotic middle east meddling that will bite USA back years later (like installing he shah which led the Ayatollah to rise in power, training Osama, arming Saddam and Iran, etc). And with the financial crisis, may I suggest using this?
But, on the other hand, the Franch president is calling the american president a weak wimp. How times have changed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 106250.ece
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Yoink
Yoink
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
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JCM
JCM
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Espy
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Denbrought
Sunni and Shiite are the two largest Islam denominations, it's practically like saying catholics and protestants in terms of how much they're known.
Denbrought
Sigh, justEspy said:
Sunni and Shiite are the two largest Islam denominations, it's practically like saying catholics and protestants in terms of how much they're known.
#439
And I still couldn't tell them apart.Denbrought said:Sigh, justEspy said:
Sunni and Shiite are the two largest Islam denominations, it's practically like saying catholics and protestants in terms of how much they're known.
#440
Krisken
Krisken
It helps that catholics and protestants aren't trying to kill each other.Edrondol said:And I still couldn't tell them apart.Denbrought said:Sigh, justEspy said:
Sunni and Shiite are the two largest Islam denominations, it's practically like saying catholics and protestants in terms of how much they're known.
#441
Espy
top that baby! I am so disapproving! Woot!). The point you seem to be missing is that cultural things like sections of religion are just that, culturally based. If that culture isn't represented strongly in a culture then it's a rare thing for them to be able to know the difference. Even in a "christian" or at least very religious nation like America many people don't know the difference between Catholics and Protestants, some don't even know they are part of the same religion.
Using something that is primarily culturally unique to lambast your opponents? Pointless.
-- Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:57 am --
Please keep in mind, I'm not saying Americans shouldn't know these things, they probably should. It would be useful. But it doesn't make anyone a retard for not knowing something that they really have no reason to know about.
Espy
Sigh and double :eyeroll: :eyerollDenbrought said:Sigh, justEspy said:
Sunni and Shiite are the two largest Islam denominations, it's practically like saying catholics and protestants in terms of how much they're known.
top that baby! I am so disapproving! Woot!). The point you seem to be missing is that cultural things like sections of religion are just that, culturally based. If that culture isn't represented strongly in a culture then it's a rare thing for them to be able to know the difference. Even in a "christian" or at least very religious nation like America many people don't know the difference between Catholics and Protestants, some don't even know they are part of the same religion. Using something that is primarily culturally unique to lambast your opponents? Pointless.
-- Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:57 am --
Please keep in mind, I'm not saying Americans shouldn't know these things, they probably should. It would be useful. But it doesn't make anyone a retard for not knowing something that they really have no reason to know about.
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GasBandit
GasBandit
#443
Denbrought
And here is where I stop discussing.
Denbrought
Espy said:
And here is where I stop discussing.
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JONJONAUG
JONJONAUG
#445
Espy
If not then I'm really not understanding what's got you all
Espy
Because you agree it's ridiculous to classify an entire country as retarded over a religious definition that isn't part of the social consciousness?Denbrought said:Espy said:
If not then I'm really not understanding what's got you all
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GasBandit
GasBandit
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Lamont
Lamont
That rather tells me you don't speak French.GasBandit said:
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GasBandit
GasBandit
Fwerr-may-la-boosh!Lamont said:That rather tells me you don't speak French.GasBandit said:
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Mr_Chaz
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Krisken
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Bubble181
Eww, seriously, California can't come up with a better-looking girl? Heck, I think Zen looks better than this one, and she lives in CA too. Give her the ribbon.
Bubble181
GasBandit said:
Eww, seriously, California can't come up with a better-looking girl? Heck, I think Zen looks better than this one, and she lives in CA too. Give her the ribbon.
#475
Dieb
Dieb
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GasBandit
One detail that leapt out at me was the part where a previously avowed anti-torture Admiral said that waterboarding suspects gleaned valuable information that helped prevent a planned attack on Los Angeles. One can still argue its moral implications, but the argument of "information gained via torture is useless" argument just got dealt a blow.
GasBandit
Obviously I just had a brain fart. Retracted.Dieb said:
It's a tax cut. Everyone will be paying less in Social Security and Medicare taxes for the next two years. Sure, it's temporary, but so were Bush's tax cuts, still makes it a tax cut. I have no idea what you mean by "meant to address expenses not incurred federally". Finally, any change in government spending or taxing is going to include some income redistribution. Under Bush, the rich got more than they did under Clinton. This isn't necessarily BAD - but nor is the poor getting more under Obama.[/quote:3vrfaczl] If a 2 year payroll tax credit is considered a tax cut, then the first year without it must also be considered a de facto tax hike. Same with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts. Income redistribution however, IS bad. It's arsenic in the veins of capitalism. "You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." - Adrian Rogers
I think you meant to write more there.[/quote:3vrfaczl] Yes, I did. About a damn paragraph and I don't know why it vanished.
I'll be writing another post on torture soon. Those memos revealed some incredibly disturbing details. It'll be a long post though, so we'll see when I get the time.[/quote:3vrfaczl]
One detail that leapt out at me was the part where a previously avowed anti-torture Admiral said that waterboarding suspects gleaned valuable information that helped prevent a planned attack on Los Angeles. One can still argue its moral implications, but the argument of "information gained via torture is useless" argument just got dealt a blow.
Very much of it. We of course have to make the usual "there are always exceptions" disclaimer for things like juicy steak and blowjobs.
Perhaps not Venezuelan style, but he does want a lot more socialism in our government, if never openly named. I've been saying since the primaries the guy is a socialist.
Nope, not even close, Congressman. What companies has Obama nationalized? Not a single damn one. Under BUSH we nationalized Freddie, Fannie, AIG, and gave GM and Chrysler large amounts of bailout money. So is Rep. Steve King an idiot, a liar, or is he just criminally misinformed? My guess would be all three.[/quote:3vrfaczl] For all intents and purposes, Obama has nationalized the banking and auto industries. The federal government now has overarching control over anyone who accepted TARP funds and is blocking attempts made by companies to give back the money now that they realize what they were signing on for. Obama's teleprompter can keep claiming they aren't in the auto business, but they're sure firing CEOs and setting policy. If it looks, sounds, and swims like a duck...
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GasBandit
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Dieb
Income redistribution has been a fact of life under our tax system since at least the early 1900's, when we went to a graduated income tax. It's something that will happen under ANY graduated income tax. Now, I assume you're for a flat tax (or perhaps a national sales tax) and that's fine, I disagree with it, but it's not an insane proposition. But Obama just wants to bring taxes back to the level they were under Clinton. How is this socialism?
And for being "aresenic in the veins of capitalism", we sure have done well under the last century of income redistribution. Now, I agree that there is some level of income redistribution that would be quite bad. But I don't think we're even near that level. Hell, Obama wants to set the income tax on the highest bracket to a level that's less than it was under Reagan! But somehow this man is is akin to Hugo Chavez?
Dieb
First of all, I'm going to do a seperate post for torture. It'll probably be a double post, but the second will be very long, and I felt that it shouldn't be mixed with the rest of this.GasBandit said:
Income redistribution has been a fact of life under our tax system since at least the early 1900's, when we went to a graduated income tax. It's something that will happen under ANY graduated income tax. Now, I assume you're for a flat tax (or perhaps a national sales tax) and that's fine, I disagree with it, but it's not an insane proposition. But Obama just wants to bring taxes back to the level they were under Clinton. How is this socialism?
And for being "aresenic in the veins of capitalism", we sure have done well under the last century of income redistribution. Now, I agree that there is some level of income redistribution that would be quite bad. But I don't think we're even near that level. Hell, Obama wants to set the income tax on the highest bracket to a level that's less than it was under Reagan! But somehow this man is is akin to Hugo Chavez?
Gotta hate it when that happens. In fact, something happened to this post of mine - got eaten somehow. *sigh*Yes, I did. About a damn paragraph and I don't know why it vanished.
TARP was signed by, and passed under....Bush. Funds from TARP were given to banks in exchange for their stock under....Bush. Auto companies were loaned money, thus putting them under the sway of the government such that their CEOs could be fired and the like under....Bush. Do conservatives just not have a memory of the last six months? Finally, sure, some banks now want to pay back the money they were given under TARP. What those banks aren't saying is that they will still be very much dependent on the government after they pay that money back. You see, all of these banks have gotten billions of dollars in low interest loans that they could not have otherwise raised - except those loans are backed by the Federal Reserve. And the banks aren't going to be paying those loans back for awhile yet - they just don't have the capital.
#482
Dieb
First of all, Admiral Dennis Blair, the man talked about in your link, the man who is Obama's intelligence chief, didn't say anything about the plot to blow up a tower in LA. That is, however, an instance that pro-torture people bring up a lot, so I'll get to it in a moment. He did, however, write a memo that has a quote that, when taken out of context, makes it look like he is pro-torture. Here is, however, what the man really thinks (from your link) -
Now, specifically about the claim that waterboarding was critical in foiling a plot to destroy the Library Tower, more formally called the US Bank Tower, the tallest building in the US west of the Mississippi. Many torture apologists bring this plot up - for example, Marc Thiessen says that if we hadn't waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed (otherwise known as KSM), "there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York". The problem is that we foiled this attack, according to the Bush White House, BEFORE we ever caught KSM. I'm going to quote the whole relevant paragraph from that link, follow it to find links backing up everything said.
This might be because, even by the ridiculously low standards of legality the Bush administration set for themselves, they STILL violated them. According to the May 30th 2005 Bradbury memo, KSM was waterboarded 183 times in a single month. However, according to that same memo waterboarding could only be used an absolute maximum of 90 times in a month.
Of course, ANY use of waterboarding is torture. There are many cases where US courts categorically called waterboarding torture. Here's a link to a previous version of this thread where I gave some specifics. Here's a more emotional reason to call it torture:
That painting is found in the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum in Phnom Phen, Cambodia. It is given as an example of torture under the Khmer Rouge. It is obviously what we have been calling "waterboarding" (ie, placing a cloth over the victim’s mouth and nose and then pouring water over that cloth, producing a sensation of drowning). Cambodians who survived the Khmer Rouge's death camps consider waterboarding torture - somehow, I consider their opinion more relevant than Dick Cheney's.
Not that waterboarding is the ONLY thing we did that was torture. All of the various things that fall under "enhanced interrogation" sound harmless enough. When put in bloodless legalize, anyway. But when you combine extended sleep deprivation (up to 11 days according to the memos), "stress positions" (you know, the same technique that has resulted in John McCain not being able to lift his arms above his head), confinement in spaces so small you can't move, and more, it's torture. There's little doubt about this. Consider this list: "Simplest rations (bread and water). Hard bed. Dark cell. Deprivation of sleep. Exhaustion Exercises. but also resort to blows with stick (in case of more than 20 blows, a doctor must be present)."
That's not a list of what we did (although we DID do all of the things there, and much more). That's a list of what the Gestapo approved for use in Norway. They called it "Verschärfte Vernehmung", which translates to, yes, "enhanced interrogation" (or "intensified" or "sharpened" interrogation). For using Verschärfte Vernehmung, those Gestapo officers were executed for war crimes. Now, of course, the Gestapo ended up on expanding that list a bit.
That ALWAYS happens when you start to torture - even if it's "enhanced interrogation". I usually don't like the slippery slope argument. But when it comes to torture - you have a mentality that you can, you HAVE TO, do anything you can to save your country. So you start using "enhanced interrogation" techniques. It produces some information, but most of it is bunk. So you push a little harder. And then a little harder. There's no accountability - everything you do is completely secret. Eventually you waterboard a man 183 times in a month. The Gestapo eventually started using hypothermia, for example - which we also eventually did. The Gestapo officers in Norway in fact didn't ever do anything the US didn't do to Al Quada suspects. And they were executed for it.
Because torture isn't limited by what method you use. In George Orwell's "1984", what is in Room 101, the worst of the worst torture chamber? It's not some specific technique, like mutilation or testicular electrocution, things that conservatives always love to bring up as "real" torture. No, it's whatever that specific person fears the most. The point is that torture isn't method, torture is doing something so bad to a person that they will give up all hope - they will do ANYTHING to make the pain stop. There's little doubt we crossed that threshold with these prisoners. Hell, it's what we were TRYING to do! Here's Mark Thiessen again (same link as above)
What's really amazing is what the Bush officials who authorized these techniques didn't know much of a damn thing about it. So I'll let you in on these "secrets" (that obviously are not, in fact, secret at all). All of these "enhanced interrogation" techniques came from a military training program called SERE (for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) which included a part where these methods were used American airmen and soldiers. This was to give show them what was used by Communists in the Korean War on US soldiers. These techniques were used by the Communists not to gain information, but to force false confessions. Moreover,
Dieb
Ok, torture. Yes, we should surely believe those who tortured when they say that torture saved many lives. It's not like they have any incentive to overstate their claims :eyeroll: But let's really unpack your statement, there, to see what it holds.GasBandit said:
First of all, Admiral Dennis Blair, the man talked about in your link, the man who is Obama's intelligence chief, didn't say anything about the plot to blow up a tower in LA. That is, however, an instance that pro-torture people bring up a lot, so I'll get to it in a moment. He did, however, write a memo that has a quote that, when taken out of context, makes it look like he is pro-torture. Here is, however, what the man really thinks (from your link) -
Couldn't have said it any better myself.
Now, specifically about the claim that waterboarding was critical in foiling a plot to destroy the Library Tower, more formally called the US Bank Tower, the tallest building in the US west of the Mississippi. Many torture apologists bring this plot up - for example, Marc Thiessen says that if we hadn't waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed (otherwise known as KSM), "there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York". The problem is that we foiled this attack, according to the Bush White House, BEFORE we ever caught KSM. I'm going to quote the whole relevant paragraph from that link, follow it to find links backing up everything said.
Waterboarding a man in 2003 was essential to derailing a plot we foiled in 2002? That's the best they can come up with? I don't doubt there was SOME sort of information we got out of "enhanced interrogation" (although like Admiral Blair I am far from convinced that, whatever we got, we wouldn't have gotten it with conventional interrogation) but if this is the best example of the gain from using torture, how can anyone believe it was worth creating thousands of enemies willing to kill our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and damaging our reputation throughout the world? Beyond the whole "morality" question, obviously - I'll get to that. Dick Cheney wants to release the information of what we learned from torture - fine by me. Appoint a special prosecutor to find ALL the facts of this case. I somehow doubt all the evidence will vindicate them - after all, the CIA admitted to destroying the video tapes of the worst of the torture. Not exactly the actions of people who feel that full disclosure will vindicate them, is it?
This might be because, even by the ridiculously low standards of legality the Bush administration set for themselves, they STILL violated them. According to the May 30th 2005 Bradbury memo, KSM was waterboarded 183 times in a single month. However, according to that same memo waterboarding could only be used an absolute maximum of 90 times in a month.
They could be waterboarded 6 times per session with two sessions per day, ie 12 applications per day. But they could also be waterboarded up to a total of twelve minutes per day, with each application being a maximum of 40 seconds, which gives us 18 applications per day. Let's use the higher number, just to be nice. 18 times a day, for five days per month, means only 90 times per month. Less than HALF of what KSM actually experienced. So even under this incredibly lenient view of torture is, whoever authorized or carried out these 183 waterboardings of KSM is guilty of war crimes under US law.
Of course, ANY use of waterboarding is torture. There are many cases where US courts categorically called waterboarding torture. Here's a link to a previous version of this thread where I gave some specifics. Here's a more emotional reason to call it torture:
That painting is found in the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum in Phnom Phen, Cambodia. It is given as an example of torture under the Khmer Rouge. It is obviously what we have been calling "waterboarding" (ie, placing a cloth over the victim’s mouth and nose and then pouring water over that cloth, producing a sensation of drowning). Cambodians who survived the Khmer Rouge's death camps consider waterboarding torture - somehow, I consider their opinion more relevant than Dick Cheney's.
Not that waterboarding is the ONLY thing we did that was torture. All of the various things that fall under "enhanced interrogation" sound harmless enough. When put in bloodless legalize, anyway. But when you combine extended sleep deprivation (up to 11 days according to the memos), "stress positions" (you know, the same technique that has resulted in John McCain not being able to lift his arms above his head), confinement in spaces so small you can't move, and more, it's torture. There's little doubt about this. Consider this list: "Simplest rations (bread and water). Hard bed. Dark cell. Deprivation of sleep. Exhaustion Exercises. but also resort to blows with stick (in case of more than 20 blows, a doctor must be present)."
That's not a list of what we did (although we DID do all of the things there, and much more). That's a list of what the Gestapo approved for use in Norway. They called it "Verschärfte Vernehmung", which translates to, yes, "enhanced interrogation" (or "intensified" or "sharpened" interrogation). For using Verschärfte Vernehmung, those Gestapo officers were executed for war crimes. Now, of course, the Gestapo ended up on expanding that list a bit.
That ALWAYS happens when you start to torture - even if it's "enhanced interrogation". I usually don't like the slippery slope argument. But when it comes to torture - you have a mentality that you can, you HAVE TO, do anything you can to save your country. So you start using "enhanced interrogation" techniques. It produces some information, but most of it is bunk. So you push a little harder. And then a little harder. There's no accountability - everything you do is completely secret. Eventually you waterboard a man 183 times in a month. The Gestapo eventually started using hypothermia, for example - which we also eventually did. The Gestapo officers in Norway in fact didn't ever do anything the US didn't do to Al Quada suspects. And they were executed for it.
Because torture isn't limited by what method you use. In George Orwell's "1984", what is in Room 101, the worst of the worst torture chamber? It's not some specific technique, like mutilation or testicular electrocution, things that conservatives always love to bring up as "real" torture. No, it's whatever that specific person fears the most. The point is that torture isn't method, torture is doing something so bad to a person that they will give up all hope - they will do ANYTHING to make the pain stop. There's little doubt we crossed that threshold with these prisoners. Hell, it's what we were TRYING to do! Here's Mark Thiessen again (same link as above)
Is there a better definition of torture than taking someone to the point where they "have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship", to the point where there is nothing left on Earth, only comfort in the Beyond? Here's a link to a story of an American reaching that same point. This is what we were TRYING to do to our captives:
How can you do that to a fellow human being? How can you not call it torture? It quite literally makes me shake with rage to realize this was done in my name. Even if you think it was effective (I obviously don't) or that it is morally justified (hell no) you should have the fucking BALLS to call it what it is: torture.
What's really amazing is what the Bush officials who authorized these techniques didn't know much of a damn thing about it. So I'll let you in on these "secrets" (that obviously are not, in fact, secret at all). All of these "enhanced interrogation" techniques came from a military training program called SERE (for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) which included a part where these methods were used American airmen and soldiers. This was to give show them what was used by Communists in the Korean War on US soldiers. These techniques were used by the Communists not to gain information, but to force false confessions. Moreover,
I mean, think about that. The people who authorized all of this in the interests of national security didn't know the US had already prosecuted waterboarding as a war crime. Didn't know the people who knew the methods best thought they'd be ineffective. Didn't know one of its biggest "expert" backers had never conducted a real interrogation. Hopefully they at least knew the CIA hadn't conducted any interrogations before 9/11. I would think that even people who are for all of this would be seriously fucking bothered by the shear bloody ignorance on display here.
#483
Holy shit! Dieb has done the impossible!
GB said he was wrong!!
:shock:GasBandit said:
Holy shit! Dieb has done the impossible!
GB said he was wrong!!
#484
GasBandit
GasBandit
Man, you warned us the type-up was going to be long, but good gravy man. Since I post from work, I don't know if I'll be able to adequately address everything I want to in it.
Look, I've got work stacking up here and I can't give all this the time it deserves (and I've STILL got today's links to put up), so I'm going to have to cut out with simply this - You have a terrorist in custody. You know there's an attack in the next few days, but you don't know exactly how or exactly where. You know he knows the details, and he knows you know, but he thinks all he has to do is hold out a few days and Allah's will be done. He is confidently assured in the victory of his cause. Thousands, if not tens of thousands of lives could be decided by your next choice - do you do everything in your power to extract the information or not? Think long and hard about that. If it comes down to it, if there's a chance to save those lives but you would have to compromise your humanity to do so, would you retain your humanity? Knowing that when the bomb goes off, the plane crashes, the train derails, whatever... that there might have been something you could have done to have stopped it and kept those people alive? Knowing that when you see the tear-streaked faces of the hundreds or more families at the funerals on CNN that their suffering was something you had a chance to avert, but you decided your own moral scruples were more important? Knowing that these people trusted you, as an extension of their government, to protect their well being and that of their loved ones? Knowing that you chose the comfort and sanity of a humanoid monster instead of their sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, and siblings?
Granted, I paint a very extreme and specific picture of a case for a single use of extreme methods and not as a standard practice. But the point of the exercise is to demonstrate that there is a point at which any decent human being, even the most die hard "terrorist apologist" (see how silly that sounds?) would have falterings in their convictions on this subject. Then, once that is established, it just becomes a debate about where that line is that says "you can do it in situation X but not Y."
And just because I can't go an entire post without a flippant dig at somebody...
-- Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:55 am --
Links -
SEAN HANNITY TO BE WATERBOARDED FOR CHARITY?
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2I6qRYJfYg:3unyt4ok][/youtube:3unyt4ok]
The mother of the Somali pirate is asking for a pardon for her son.
The government is now considering limiting the size of banks so that they will never be "too big to fail."
The UK is talking about raising their top tax bracket to 50%. There are already talks about fears of "brain drain."
Obama muddles torture messages
Janet Napolitano suggests the 9-11 terrorists entered the U.S. through Canada.
Is education costing us more than health care?
Why does Obama smile at dictators? Maybe he's hoping to make this list.
The idea of a state-called constitutional convention to address federal power is gaining steam.
The top GE executive says that this global financial crisis has completely "reset" capitalism and the way we do business.
Ahmadinejad is upset that Barack Obama did not participate in the thrilling UN conference on racism.
GM is planning to temporarily close most of its American factories for up to nine weeks this summer. Yeah .. but are they going to have to continue to pay the workers?
That we gained useful information is noteworthy because of the tendency in recent years for people to dismiss any and all information gained via controversial methods to be useless. That Blair considers the blow to the country's image to outweigh the benefits gained by obtaining that information is worthy of consideration, but does not change the fact that not every man who gets subjected to discomfort will tell you he started the Chicago fire.Dieb said:
Don't say "apologists" if you want to be taken seriously. It makes you sound like your primary news source is DailyKos, after having heard every opponent of "progressive" policy be called a "something apologist" for the last 8+ years. Just because you are in favor of something and have reasons you can cite for it doesn't mean you're "apologizing" on its behalf.
Look, I've got work stacking up here and I can't give all this the time it deserves (and I've STILL got today's links to put up), so I'm going to have to cut out with simply this - You have a terrorist in custody. You know there's an attack in the next few days, but you don't know exactly how or exactly where. You know he knows the details, and he knows you know, but he thinks all he has to do is hold out a few days and Allah's will be done. He is confidently assured in the victory of his cause. Thousands, if not tens of thousands of lives could be decided by your next choice - do you do everything in your power to extract the information or not? Think long and hard about that. If it comes down to it, if there's a chance to save those lives but you would have to compromise your humanity to do so, would you retain your humanity? Knowing that when the bomb goes off, the plane crashes, the train derails, whatever... that there might have been something you could have done to have stopped it and kept those people alive? Knowing that when you see the tear-streaked faces of the hundreds or more families at the funerals on CNN that their suffering was something you had a chance to avert, but you decided your own moral scruples were more important? Knowing that these people trusted you, as an extension of their government, to protect their well being and that of their loved ones? Knowing that you chose the comfort and sanity of a humanoid monster instead of their sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, and siblings?
Granted, I paint a very extreme and specific picture of a case for a single use of extreme methods and not as a standard practice. But the point of the exercise is to demonstrate that there is a point at which any decent human being, even the most die hard "terrorist apologist" (see how silly that sounds?) would have falterings in their convictions on this subject. Then, once that is established, it just becomes a debate about where that line is that says "you can do it in situation X but not Y."
And just because I can't go an entire post without a flippant dig at somebody...
-- Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:55 am --
Links -
SEAN HANNITY TO BE WATERBOARDED FOR CHARITY?
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2I6qRYJfYg:3unyt4ok][/youtube:3unyt4ok]
The mother of the Somali pirate is asking for a pardon for her son.
The government is now considering limiting the size of banks so that they will never be "too big to fail."
The UK is talking about raising their top tax bracket to 50%. There are already talks about fears of "brain drain."
Obama muddles torture messages
Janet Napolitano suggests the 9-11 terrorists entered the U.S. through Canada.
Is education costing us more than health care?
Why does Obama smile at dictators? Maybe he's hoping to make this list.
The idea of a state-called constitutional convention to address federal power is gaining steam.
The top GE executive says that this global financial crisis has completely "reset" capitalism and the way we do business.
Ahmadinejad is upset that Barack Obama did not participate in the thrilling UN conference on racism.
GM is planning to temporarily close most of its American factories for up to nine weeks this summer. Yeah .. but are they going to have to continue to pay the workers?
#485
Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
#486
Armadillo
Armadillo
#487
Covar
Covar
#488
GasBandit
GasBandit
#489
Covar
Covar
#490
JCM
JCM
#491
GasBandit
GasBandit
#492
Bubble181
Bubble181
#493
Dieb
Dieb
#494
Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
#495
JCM
SAS trains the soldiers to give false, yet acceptable info that will mislead their captors enough until the operation pulls through.
A terrorist could say that an attack would happen elsewhere, the feds as usual would up the security and give a pet on their heads with pride because "the attack didnt happen, so we must have stopped it" then say that an "attack was stopped because of torture info", so that supporters of human rights abuse can post it online as "proof" that it works.
Unlike liberatiarepublicans, I'll wait to see the proof, and the documentation, instead of latching on to any politician who agrees with me.
JCM
I liked the use of Barneys "I love you, you love me" day after day, its like that song found its true purpose.GasBandit said:
This.
SAS trains the soldiers to give false, yet acceptable info that will mislead their captors enough until the operation pulls through.
A terrorist could say that an attack would happen elsewhere, the feds as usual would up the security and give a pet on their heads with pride because "the attack didnt happen, so we must have stopped it" then say that an "attack was stopped because of torture info", so that supporters of human rights abuse can post it online as "proof" that it works.
Unlike liberatiarepublicans, I'll wait to see the proof, and the documentation, instead of latching on to any politician who agrees with me.
#496
GasBandit
GasBandit
Sorry for playing hooky today folks. Once again, my day job has interfered with what I do during the day Had to cover for a coworker again.
-- Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:00 pm --
Had to cover for a coworker again.It wasn't meant to be illustrative of any real event, it was meant purely as a hypothetical situation to see how one makes the choice... if on the one side of the scale, you have the specter of losing thousands of lives, and on the other a terrorist and a pair of cable shears suitable for cutting off fingers metarpals after phalanges, would one do it. If you are in a situation where the only way to save those lives is an act of inhumanity to one person, do the needs of the many outweigh?Dieb said:
That depends entirely upon the nature of the torture.
What I meant by "retain your humanity" was to abstain from torturing the prisoner. Really, I share your stated opinion here about humankind, but I was using the commonly accepted term. Personally, I think the term "cruel and unusual punishment" is silly... a punishment has to be both cruel and unusual. If it is usual, it comes to be gradually tolerated and accepted as normal. If it isn't cruel, it has no effect.
-- Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:00 pm --
I dunno, in this day and age of global commerce it's becoming less and less trouble to relocate your "headquarters" to duck taxes. But then again, I suppose if you do it slowly enough you can boil a frog without it ever jumping out of the pot.Mr_Chaz said:
#497
GasBandit
GasBandit
#498
Dieb
Dieb
#499
Kitty Sinatra
Obama was closer with his 57 states. Although by Price is Right rules he failed for going over.
Kitty Sinatra
GasBandit said:
Obama was closer with his 57 states. Although by Price is Right rules he failed for going over.
#500
JCM
JCM