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They recently outright stole Jonathan Coulton's cover of Baby Got Back, from using the exact same composition and instrumentation to using the lyrical changes he made.

Jonathan Coulton ‏@jonathancoulton

Hey look, @GLEEonFOX ripped off my cover of Baby Got Back: http://bit.ly/WME9Ho . Never even contacted me. Classy.

After listening, I think that @GLEEonFOX may have even used parts of my recording. Do I hear a duck quack? And of course they say "Johnny C"

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Jonathan Coulton's version:

Glee's:

Here's the Verge's take on why he can't do a thing about it. Copyright law as it is means that all Glee has to do is pay the original song owner the royalties it would owe and it can copy Coulton's version all it wants without even so much as a nod of credit (which is all he wants).

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/18/3...ons-cover-of-baby-got-back-without-permission

I will say it is pretty douchey but it isn't actually illegal either. http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/why-glee-did-not-rip-off-jonathan-coulton

I gave up on Glee when the characters started out season 2 having seemingly lost all of the character development that happened in season 1, and the writers went back to rehashing the same interpersonal issues as the year before.

MindDetective said:

I will say it is pretty douchey but it isn't actually illegal either. http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/why-glee-did-not-rip-off-jonathan-coulton

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That's such a shitty headline. They very much obviously did, it's just that they can and it's perfectly legal for them to do so.

We're not even talking that they copied it with the same instrumentation: they literally sang over Jonathan Coulton's actual track. They even include his "Johnny C" line because it's his track.

Frank said:

That's such a shitty headline. They very much obviously did, it's just that they can and it's perfectly legal for them to do so.

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Totally agree.

Of course, this isn't the first time they've done this.

http://popcrush.com/glee-copy-greg-laswell-cyndi-lauper/

Frank said:

They recently outright stole Jonathan Coulton's cover of Baby Got Back, from using the exact same composition and instrumentation to using the lyrical changes he made.

Jonathan Coulton ‏@jonathancoulton



Jonathan Coulton's version:

Glee's:

Here's the Verge's take on why he can't do a thing about it. Copyright law as it is means that all Glee has to do is pay the original song owner the royalties it would owe and it can copy Coulton's version all it wants without even so much as a nod of credit (which is all he wants).

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/18/3...ons-cover-of-baby-got-back-without-permission

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I guess my biggest question before saying that they should pay him any royalties or not, I'd want to know if HE paid Sir Mix-A-Lot royalties for using his song. If not, he'd actually be the one most in the wrong. You can bet your ass that Fox paid the associated royalties for the actual song "Baby's Got Back".

They do totally owe him a credit, though. I'll totally agree to that.

This is entirely speculation, but I would assume if he got the rights, he would have gotten them via http://www.harryfox.com/

His music is all under the creative commons, so anyone can do whatever they want as long as he is credited and they don't use it for commercial gain. If his twitter is true, he's trying to figure out if they used any of his original recording, in which case they would be guilty of wrongdoing under creative commons. If they just ripped him off and just used their own duck quacks and other shit, they are in the clear to do whatever bullshit they want.

Whoa, here they say that Coulton very much has a case.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...y_got_back_did_fox_steal_the_arrangement.html

The instrumentals and vocal intonations are like 99% similar. They even say "Johnny C" instead of "Mix-A-Lot" or the Glee character's name. The lyrics are the only thing Coulton didn't write himself, the instrumental track of the cover is his songwriting.

Also, he's not said a single thing about money outside talking to a lawyer (mentioned on his blog), seems like he's more concerned about not being asked about it at all.

Frank said:

Whoa, here they say that Coulton very much has a case.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...y_got_back_did_fox_steal_the_arrangement.html

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From the article:

Coulton himself does not own the rights to Mix-A-Lot’s lyrics, of course, but, according to the U.S. Copyright Office, “the copyright of a derivative work covers ... the additions, changes, or other new material appearing for the first time in the work."

Even if Fox got permission for the Glee cover of “Baby Got Back” from Harry Fox (which they undoubtedly did), they are also required to seek permission from Coulton for use of his “additions”—chords, phrasings, rhythms, and so on—that make his arrangement unique (and choir-boy friendly).

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I hope they throw the book at Fox. Or at least somebody does. Or something.

-looks at title-

100% agree.

That's pretty shitty. Glad I stopped watching Glee a long time ago.

When my friend posted a link about this, I honestly thought it was just going to be geeks complaining because Glee did some geek anthem or something. Aaaaand then I read the article and listened to the covers... Definitely a shitty thing to do.

The only episode of Glee I saw was the Rocky Horror special. So...freaking...CHEESY! And cheesy was all I thought of the show. Now I know that the show is run by prickish thieves. Fuck Glee.

I don't really care about glee anymore and I REALLY don't care about Jonathan Coulson, but I just wanted to jump in and say that every slow, folksy version of a rap song is

A) a mocking type of cultural appropriation
B) terrible

and it would rule if white people stopped doing it

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I don't really care about glee anymore and I REALLY don't care about Jonathan Coulson, but I just wanted to jump in and say that every slow, folksy version of a rap song is

A) a mocking type of cultural appropriation
B) terrible

and it would rule if white people stopped doing it

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This sounds a lot like "Only black people should rap and only white people ever sing folk music." Without all the self righteousness.

Snuffleupagus said:

This sounds a lot like "Only black people should rap and only white people ever sing folk music." Without all the self righteousness.

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I think it's very much full of the self-righteousness.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I don't really care about glee anymore and I REALLY don't care about Jonathan Coulson, but I just wanted to jump in and say that every slow, folksy version of a rap song is

A) a mocking type of cultural appropriation
B) terrible

and it would rule if white people stopped doing it

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https://www.halforums.com/threads/i...ist-of-films-ruined-by-remakes-sequels.28900/

Substitute songs for films.

Snuffleupagus said:

This sounds a lot like "Only black people should rap and only white people ever sing folk music." Without all the self righteousness.

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you incredibly missed / didn't understand my point[DOUBLEPOST=1358612476][/DOUBLEPOST]

MindDetective said:

https://www.halforums.com/threads/i...ist-of-films-ruined-by-remakes-sequels.28900/

Substitute songs for films.

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I never said that the cover made the original song shittier, just that it was offensive, these are not the same things at all

Charlie Don't Surf said:

you incredibly missed / didn't understand my point[DOUBLEPOST=1358612476][/DOUBLEPOST]

I never said that the cover made the original song shittier, just that it was offensive, these are not the same things at all

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There is nothing inherently offensive in a remake, of a song or a film. Judge on their own merits.

MindDetective said:

There is nothing inherently offensive in a remake, of a song or a film. Judge on their own merits.

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yeah um. I don't think you understand words? I agree with this. It's not offensive because it's a cover. I feel the same way about covers as I do about film remakes.

If the Klan did a remake of "Do The Right Thing", it wouldn't make me enjoy Spike Lee's movie even less. It wouldn't be offensive because it's a remake.

also just noting that the above example isn't meaning to call JoCo a Klan member at all, it was just the first example that popped into mind.

An 8 year old not serious cover of a 20 year old not serious hip hop song is not offensive solely because Jonathan Coulton is white.

Frank said:

An 8 year old not serious cover of a 20 year old not serious hip hop song is not offensive solely because Jonathan Coulton is white.

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I agree with this?

Frank said:

An 8 year old not serious cover of a 20 year old not serious hip hop song is not offensive solely because Jonathan Coulton is white.

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Pretty much what I was getting at.

Alright, we all agree it's not offensive because Jonathan Coulton is white, which is good since nobody in this thread said it was offensive because JC is white.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Alright, we all agree it's not offensive because Jonathan Coulton is white, which is good since nobody in this thread said it was offensive because JC is white.

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That's the analogy given your your Klan example, so perhaps you need to clarify.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I don't really care about glee anymore and I REALLY don't care about Jonathan Coulson, but I just wanted to jump in and say that every slow, folksy version of a rap song is

A) a mocking type of cultural appropriation
B) terrible

and it would rule if white people stopped doing it

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Ok.

MindDetective said:

That's the analogy given your your Klan example, so perhaps you need to clarify.

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the hypothetical Klan remake wouldn't be offensive because they're white, wouldn't be offensive because it's a remake, it would be offensive since it would most likely be a showcase for the KKK's "values"[DOUBLEPOST=1358620032][/DOUBLEPOST]

Frank said:

Ok.

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that is just stating that white people do it

Charlie Don't Surf said:

the hypothetical Klan remake wouldn't be offensive because they're white, wouldn't be offensive because it's a remake, it would be offensive since it would most likely be a showcase for the KKK's "values"

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I'm having trouble extending this analogy to Jonathan Coulton's values here. While you are probably right in your assumption, it doesn't seem like the remake is being judged on its own merits, either.

MindDetective said:

I'm having trouble extending this analogy to Jonathan Coulton's values here. While you are probably right in your assumption, it doesn't seem like the remake is being judged on its own merits, either.

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JC isn't a white supremacist, he's just following a trend that is, from my previous post, "a mocking form of cultural appropriation".

there's not a really good analogy at all to be made for film, since black voices in cinema are snuffed out for the most part by Hollywood's racism

What about when hip hop artists do rap covers of non rap songs?

I guess I don't see the cultural appropriation? It's funny because everyone recognises it as a high-energy, loud, fast song, but he's sung it slowly and in a completely inappropriate style. The strangeness between expectations and reality makes people laugh. I don't know what cultural appropriation is going on here. I don't get the message to be "This song would be better done this way!"

Ravenpoe said:

What about when hip hop artists do rap covers of non rap songs?

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if this is a trend, I would love to hear one. Kanye & Jay Z rapping "I got you, babe" would kind of own

Chad Sexington said:

I guess I don't see the cultural appropriation? It's funny because everyone recognises it as a high-energy, loud, fast song, but he's sung it slowly and in a completely inappropriate style. The strangeness between expectations and reality makes people laugh. I don't know what cultural appropriation is going on here. I don't get the message to be "This song would be better done this way!"

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A white artist is doing something to a black artist's song. Ergo, it must be racist.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

JC isn't a white supremacist, he's just following a trend that is, from my previous post, "a mocking form of cultural appropriation".

there's not a really good analogy at all to be made for film, since black voices in cinema are snuffed out for the most part by Hollywood's racism

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Can an artist (of any color) not pay tribute to another artist (of any color)? I mean, geez, he paid for the rights to the song so it isn't even literally any kind of theft.

Also, what is inherently bad about appropriating elements of another culture? Should cultures just be separate and not intermingle or share in any way?

I am deeply offended by Darius Rucker singing country.

WTF Hootie?

What about when Alanis Morriset makes a hilarious slow adult contemporary version of Fergie's "My Humps"? Is that offensive?

No, the most offensive cover is Miley Cyrus's version of Part of Your World.



Seriously, this song is a white woman appropriating Animated Culture. Also, the song sucks.

bhamv3 said:

Also, the song sucks.

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Clearly Kiss the Girl was the best song in that film, with Poor Unfortunate Souls not much behind.

We're talking about shitty covers. *sigh* Guess that means I have to break this out again. To quote David Tennant as The Doctor, "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry."

stienman said:

Clearly Kiss the Girl was the best song in that film, with Poor Unfortunate Souls not much behind.

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Poor Unfortunate Souls is ten times better than Kiss the Girl.

Then again, I'm always partial to villain songs. I have an entire playlist on my iPod that is titled "Musical Villany" that's the villain songs from a bunch of musicals.

For the record, here's the playlist:

Gaston- Beauty and the Beast
Your Fault/Last Midnight- Into the Woods
Master of the House- Les Miserables
Heaven's Light/Hellfire- Hunchback of Notre Dame
I Want to Be Evil - Eartha Kit (kind of a cheat because it's not from a musical, but it fits the theme so well)
Poor Unfortunate Souls - The Little Mermaid
Oogie Boogie's Song- The Nightmare Before Christmas
Snuff Out the Light- The Emperor's New Groove (best Disney villain song that didn't make it into the final cut of the movie)
Friends on the Other Side- The Princess and the Frog
Be Prepared- The Lion King
Lament- Into the Woods
Wonderful- Wicked
A Sentimental Man - Wicked

I've always considered No Good Deed to be Wicked's "true" villain song. That song's awesome.

bhamv3 said:

I've always considered No Good Deed to be Wicked's "true" villain song. That song's awesome.

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Not in the way the story is structured. The entire point of the play is that the Elphaba is actually the hero, not the villain portrayed in the Oz books/movies. The real villain of wicked is the Wizard.

That being said, No Good Deed is one of my favorite songs in the play.

Bowielee said:

For the record, here's the playlist:

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Nice list.

Have you ever thought about adding "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch" to it? It looks like the Thurl Ravenscroft version is available from Amazon.
Amazon product

Even though I don't consider him a villain, I'd put Javert's Stars up there, rather than Master of the House. Even from the Tenardiers, I think I'd put in Harvest Moon. MotH isn't exactly villanous - the Tenardiers aren't villains, they're just bad people. Just as Javert's not a villain, he's just too rigid and too afraid of loosening reins, and tries to protect himself behind a shield of Law and Order, because he can't live without it.

Anyway, that said, great list.

Also, there have been great slow covers of fast songs and vice versa. I actually might well prefer Snoop Doggs rendition of Riders on the Storm to the original. Saying covers of a specific type are bad/wrong because of race or racial culture is horribly, horribly racist and just plain funny out of CdS's mouth.

Bham - Were you saying the Miley version of the song sucked or that "Part of Your World" itself sucks?

I learned a few chords to PoYW on the guitar and playing that is what initially made my wife interested in me. She thought it was cute.

KCWM said:

Bham - Were you saying the Miley version of the song sucked or that "Part of Your World" itself sucks?

I learned a few chords to PoYW on the guitar and playing that is what initially made my wife interested in me. She thought it was cute.

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The song is good. Miley's version sucks so much, they had to redefine the word "suck" to express that level of sucking. From now on, Miley's version of Part of Your World is the only thing that can truly be said to suck. Everything else that used to suck is now referred to as "sort of bad."

The most offensive cover I can think of is Fred Durst's cover of The Who's Behind Blue Eyes. Think about it. It's a white rapper, creating a hip-hopesque track of a bluesy rock song. This rock group emerged at a time when jazz was fading out and rock branching out from that form. Blues and Jazz was largely an African American art form, with its successor rock popularized by British bands.

A form of originally African American music appropriated by white rockers, later turned into a terrible track by a white rapper.

It's a perfect storm of cultural theft...if you keep track of that kind of thing.

I'm still working on figuring out how Celine Dion's covers of AC-DC songs would be more culturally offensive. Lord knows it's offensive enough to the senses. The sound actually literally leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

The most offensive cover ever would be a Weird Al polka version of "Strange Fruit."

I can't tell if Charlie was serious, or if he was trying to demonstrate what racism feels like by role-reversal.

Bubble181 said:

Even though I don't consider him a villain, I'd put Javert's Stars up there, rather than Master of the House. Even from the Tenardiers, I think I'd put in Harvest Moon. MotH isn't exactly villanous - the Tenardiers aren't villains, they're just bad people. Just as Javert's not a villain, he's just too rigid and too afraid of loosening reins, and tries to protect himself behind a shield of Law and Order, because he can't live without it.

Anyway, that said, great list.

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The main reason that I have Master of the House, rather than Stars is that I simply like the song better. Les Mis is such a huge musical, there are multiple heroes and villains and I find the Thenardiers to be more interesting. It would be the same reason if I were doing a hero song list, I would put in anything by Epinene over anything by Cosette or Marius(who I find to be the most boring characters in the entire musical).

With the exception of old fasioned "evil for evil's sake" villains, any villain is going to be more complex than just being the bad guy, but it doesn't make them NOT villains in terms of the narrative.

fade said:

I can't tell if Charlie was serious, or if he was trying to demonstrate what racism feels like by role-reversal.

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It was still fun to come up with something that horrible.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

if this is a trend, I would love to hear one. Kanye & Jay Z rapping "I got you, babe" would kind of own

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Well not sure if its a trend but I know an example.

Yes. This exists.