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I'm in the middle of watching the documentary, Food Inc. I knew it would be en eye-opener and very likely horrifying, but I had no idea. The absolute size of industrialized food processing is...astounding.

There was one clip showing an assembly line of baby chickens. One of the workers grabbed them like nothing, shoved their head up against a piece of metal to snap their neck and kill them. I'm man enough to admit I kinda shrieked a little seeing it happen so coldly.

Then there's the amount of chemicals and corn fed to animals (cows evolved to eat grass, but eating corn is part of what brought about E-Coli, along with standing in knee-deep manure). The amount of land used to raise animals is insane. Then there's the waste run-off.

So...yeah, I've been on the fence about going full vegetarian for awhile, but I think it's time. Don't think I'll be able to go straight vegan (no dairy), but we'll see. Certainly cut down on my egg and cheese intake, for sure.

And...cue the usual "for every burger you don't eat, I'll eat five" or "BACON!" comments.

You know who else was a vegetarian?

Hitler.

In all seriousness, it's your decision, so more power to ya, man. I respect that you're doing this for ethical reasons as much as personal preference.

But I'll not be joining you, I think. Where you go, I cannot follow.

If you're doing it to "put a dent in the food industry" or "to help against it" or anything "noble" then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

I think corn is a kind of grass related to wheat. Also, of course meat production is done "coldly" how else could anyone do the job? It would be a hell of a lot more fucked up watching someone crying while shakily shooting a cow in the head.

I've often thought of going vegetarian because I'm not all that fond of meat in the first place. But I don't have the discipline to make sure my diet is well rounded without it.

I know you already covered this, but seriously... BACON!

makare said:

I think corn is a kind of grass related to wheat.

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The difference between grain-fed and grass-fed is what part of the plant is being eaten. Corn-fed cattle are fed off the corn kernels. Grass-fed eat the whole plant stalk. This causes a major difference in digestion, leading to corn-fed animals having higher bacteria counts in their gut, leading to e-coli contamination problems. This also leads to metabolic changes, where corn-fed beef has lower amounts of Omega-3 fatty acids, and higher amounts of Omega-6s. This means that grass-fed beef and dairy have numerous health benefits, while corn-fed is neutral at best.

I'm firmly opposed to vegetarian diets, because I don't believe they're as healthy as those that contain meat and fish. "Lacto-ovo" vegetarian is better, since milk and eggs can provide many of the same nutrients as meat, but trying to balance a purely vegetarian (or worse, vegan) diet to get the essential fatty acids found in meat is difficult, if not impossible (depending on your existing health).

Nick, while I support you wanting to do this for moral reasons, I don't think it's a wise choice from a health perspective. Just my advice.

Jiarn said:

If you're doing it to "put a dent in the food industry" or "to help against it" or anything "noble" then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

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It's not entirely like that. I think, as a society, the sheer amount of meat consumption should be lowered. Not entirely taken out, since that might be impossible for some. But at the very least, a lower consumption. It's the amount of resources used to process this stuff. Either the acres of land just to maintain the animals or the resources to ship the meat, etc.

At the very least, if I do buy meat, it'll be something made on farms that treat the animals better.

It's less about "screwing the man" and more about the fact that processed food and the way it's handled is harmful to society. Because of processed food, people might be eating meat, sure, but it's processed to no end. I used to eat a lot of processed crap. Now, I look at the health information on those and see how bad they are. Ridiculously fatty and greatly high on sodium (for long-distance shipping and keeping it on the shelves longer).

Well, good luck with it. I've never really watched anything like that or accepted a food-related pamphlet waved at me by a college student yet, because I really don't care to know. If people don't want to support the industry, I can understand. I hope that you continue to get enough protein and whatnot.

My only piece of advice is to "knock with your feet" at parties; i.e., bring something of your own. It's helpful to a host or hostess who might not have thought to accommodate you, and you get to share a bit of your own lifestyle with everybody. Enjoy playing with new recipes.

ThatNickGuy said:

At the very least, if I do buy meat, it'll be something made on farms that treat the animals better.

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We've been buying smaller farm meats lately and holy crap is the chicken and steak 10x better. It's a little more expensive but it's so worth it.

Ya know, I didn't think Eggland's Best eggs would taste any better than the regular eggs I usually buy, but they actually do. The yolks taste a little better, and the whites are a little more firm. Much easier to poach, even when I've had them in my fridge for a week. When I can afford them, I get them, because they're very good.

Yup. Plus, since it's a little costlier it helps to cut down on how much meat one takes in. So sure, I could have a really cheap, crappy steak every night or once a week I could spend more and have a freaking awesome piece of meat.

ThatNickGuy said:

At the very least, if I do buy meat, it'll be something made on farms that treat the animals better.

It's less about "screwing the man" and more about the fact that processed food and the way it's handled is harmful to society. Because of processed food, people might be eating meat, sure, but it's processed to no end. I used to eat a lot of processed crap. Now, I look at the health information on those and see how bad they are. Ridiculously fatty and greatly high on sodium (for long-distance shipping and keeping it on the shelves longer).

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Again, if you're doing it for the health reasons? Then good on you. If you're doing it otherwise, I would just facepalm. You sound like you're doing it for the right reasons but it does sound a bit like the other.

*shrug* It's a bit of both, but mostly for the so called "right reasons".

Well, theres nothing wrong with wanting to avoid something you find reprehensible Nick. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, even if they think it's stupid.

Espy said:

We've been buying smaller farm meats lately and holy crap is the chicken and steak 10x better. It's a little more expensive but it's so worth it.

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My sister has been getting us grass-fed beef by mail order and at a local farmers market. It's so much tastier. She gets good chickens as well, and we buy our eggs from a local place just a mile or so away. We buy raw milk from a farm near here, and used to get goat milk kefir from another farm, until they became so popular it was difficult to get some before they ran out.

Food tastes so much better. I'm really looking forward to tomorrow. Hamburgers on fresh baked buns. Mac & cheese made from some good quality cheddar and gruyere. Oooh, and a sour cream & blueberry pie for dessert.

figmentPez said:

blueberry pie for dessert.

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...The time has come to bake a pie. Reading that just made me so ready to roll out some dough!

Now I want pie.

The foods I am craving right now:

-sushi, particularly spicy salmon
-calamari
-cherry cheesecake

Gusto... was the line blue?

Espy said:

Well, theres nothing wrong with wanting to avoid something you find reprehensible Nick. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, even if they think it's stupid.

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Absoultely not, just don't think it's accomplishing anything more than you feeling good about yourself.

I want to have my own chickens someday

makare said:

I want to have my own chickens someday

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So what happens when it comes time for chicken and dumplings?

I just want them for eggs not for butchering. I want these ones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameraucana

I was vegetarian for the month of June successfully without really much trouble. I've fallen off the wagon hard for this holiday weekend, and I haven't decided how much I'm going to go back to it later/afterwards.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I've fallen off the wagon hard for this holiday weekend

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Amen, this weekend has been an orgy of meat and dairy!

Instead of becoming a full vegetarian, why not limit your diet to meat that's raised in a more humane way? This will of course be more expensive, but you'll be eating a lot less of it than you would normal meat, so it should help to equal out.

Meat is an important part of the diet, but it doesn't have to be as big a part as we usually make it. And this way, you can still have free-range BACON!

I had bacon for breakfast and dinner today.

Speaking of things being more expensive but way better, we started getting milk deliveries from our local dairy, and omg yum.

My friends father is a farmer.

Best fucking meat ever.

It is pretty tough being a vegetarian (depending on the type and friends you hang out)

I was one for about 15 years.

You have to eat a balance diet. This means taking in fruits, veggies and nuts (it is possible to do all this without meat).
I don't recommend going "cold turkey" cause your body has to adjust. I say go slowly and step by step.

I am not shocked by the food industry. I know what is going into my meat and veggies. You be surprise that mass produce veggies has a lot of chemicals too. So the only way to do it is to grow a garden (like some of my friends) or pay more for organic.

Nick, this is a journey which you must take alone, for I can not join you on this road.

I don't care if it sounds gay or not: I. Love. Meat.

Wow, a public farewell to one's own balls. Interesting.

Dave said:

Nick, this is a journey which you must take alone, for I can not join you on this road.

I don't care if it sounds gay or not: I. Love. Meat.

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Heh. It is a rough journey for sure. There are a lot of meat eaters than non meat eater in the U.S. (especially in Texas. We are steak country after all)
Now if you were in China where meat are expensive, it would be easier.

But to buy a salad, or have 2 cheeseburger (99 cent each vs 3.50+) that is gonna be a tough call.
Or eat at home a lot.

The veggie burger at many places are expensive (black bean burger at Chili IS tasty but you are spending like 6$ for it)
It would be harder to eat out with friends and pay a lot of money for salad where you can save by eating salad at home.
There are veggie meats out there (again cost more) they are pretty tasty and good substitute, but again, more money spend on it.

now pure vegetarian don't even do meat substitute. They just eat beans, fruits, veggies and grain for suppliments.

I saw Food Inc.

It made me hungry for a burger.

7 minutes of pig decapitation via robot (pigs already deceased). Amazing that we can use machine vision and robots with such precision these days. Pretty soon we won't need much human intervention beyond raising them and loading animals into the factory, which is good because our national consumption of meat is only going up.

http://thedailywh.at/tag/robotic-hog-head-dropper/

Of course, we can go the other direction. Mark Zuckerberg (of facebook fame) has decided to forgo eating meat - unless he has killed the animal himself - for one year. He says he wants to learn to be thankful for what he's eating, and that it's too easy to pick up a burger and eat it without thinking about the animal that gave its life for the burger. If people had to kill the animal they ate, and we went back to an agrarian economy, well, things would certainly be different. You'd have to legislate it to make it happen though. And McDonalds has enough cash to buy out each and every public official several times over, so it's not terribly likely to happen.

http://www.google.com/search?q=zuckerberg+meat

Fortunately, we have a great deal of choice in what we eat, and a low meat diet is significantly healthier than the amount of meat the average American eats. So people can pretty much choose what diet they will have.

I applaud your choice - it's not an easy road you've chosen, but I certainly wish you luck.

Mathias said:

I saw Food Inc.

It made me hungry for a burger.

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But... did it put you off corn?

Google.com search Zuckerberg meat? No, no I don't think so.

I knew I'd regret saying that.

But I'm shocked. Even with SafeSearch off, Googling "zuckerberg meat" in images doesn't give me anything dirty.

Guess I'll have to try Yahoo.

Soon searches for Zuckerberg's meat are going to end up here.

stienman said:

If people had to kill the animal they ate, and we went back to an agrarian economy, well, things would certainly be different. You'd have to legislate it to make it happen though. And McDonalds has enough cash to buy out each and every public official several times over, so it's not terribly likely to happen..

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That would be horrible, do you know much better off we are as a society when everyone doesn't have to spend all our time growing and killing our own food?

If it wasn't panicking in fear of the prospect of its own death, I don't enjoy eating it. Not saying I WON'T eat it... but the musk of terror is such a delicious spice.

In my experience, they never see it coming. First they are pecking at the ground looking for grubs or seeds...

Then they are running around like a chicken with their head cut off.

Having actually slit the throat of a pig and hung it from the rafters of my grandpa's shop while we separated the guts into different milk crates depending on what he wanted to do with them when I was 10, I fully, fully continue to enjoy eating pork, beef, chicken, horse (once, it was ok, Like super bitter beef), fish, crustaceans, mollusks, rodents on occasion, ungulates in general and the occasional bear. Just put me down for most mammals, lizards, birds or even an amphibian or 2.

Frankie Williamson said:

Having actually slit the throat of a pig and hung it from the rafters of my grandpa's shop while we separated the guts into different milk crates depending on what he wanted to do with them when I was 10, I fully, fully continue to enjoy eating pork, beef, chicken, horse (once, it was ok, Like super bitter beef), fish, crustaceans, mollusks, rodents on occasion, ungulates in general and the occasional bear. Just put me down for most mammals, lizards, birds or even an amphibian or 2.

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Well, I will say that frog meat is a little too sweet for my palate. But for most of the other stuff, I'm good to go.

Add bbq sauce and good to go.

The only problem I have with killing animals is digging all the shot out of fowl. And though I prefer the bow, I don't like the damage it does to the meat as opposed to a shock death.

GasBandit said:

If it wasn't panicking in fear of the prospect of its own death, I don't enjoy eating it. Not saying I WON'T eat it... but the musk of terror is such a delicious spice.

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I assume you're kidding, but there is a steak expert that can tell you by eating a steak if the animal died in fear or not. Logically, it makes sense, since the fear response releases chemicals into the bloodstream which would potentially appear in the meat. Quite interesting, really.

Nick, feel free to PM me for any guidance I can offer. I've been through most of the pain in the ass stuff, particularly with regards to weeding out meat substitutes that suck.

Fun Size said:

I assume you're kidding, but there is a steak expert that can tell you by eating a steak if the animal died in fear or not. Logically, it makes sense, since the fear response releases chemicals into the bloodstream which would potentially appear in the meat. Quite interesting, really.

Nick, feel free to PM me for any guidance I can offer. I've been through most of the pain in the ass stuff, particularly with regards to weeding out meat substitutes that suck.

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The Morning stuff is not bad. But if you want decent meat sub, go to Asian market, they have nice stuff.

Fun Size said:

I assume you're kidding, but there is a steak expert that can tell you by eating a steak if the animal died in fear or not. Logically, it makes sense, since the fear response releases chemicals into the bloodstream which would potentially appear in the meat. Quite interesting, really.

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Seems to me that the deer I've shot that didn't die instantly (and I subsequently had to track it for half a mile) should have been pretty damn terrified. Still tasted good. Now, I'm no medical expert, but seeing as how one of the first things that we do is to drain the blood, for the adrenaline or what-have-you to change the flavor of the meat, it'd have to be soaking a lot longer than just a few seconds of fight-or-flight. I could easily believe that an animal that lived it's life in fear could taste different, but a few seconds of terror before being completely exsanguinated?

It isn't, and he didn't say it tasted worse - just different.

And yes, when you kill a cow, you prompty drain all of the blood from it. This is why it makes no real difference if you cook the steak rare or well done.

Fun Size said:

It isn't, and he didn't say it tasted worse - just different.

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Ohh I see, I misunderstood. It's kind of a "wine tasting" thing where somebody can guess the year and vineyard.

Precisely.

GasBandit said:

Ohh I see, I misunderstood. It's kind of a "wine tasting" thing where somebody can guess the year and vineyard.

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The expert deeply inhales the steam from the steak, carefully cuts a small part off the portion, inspects the grain briefly, then chews thoughtfully for severeal seconds.

Carefully patting his lips with the linen napkin and removing the piece from his mouth, he declares with some authority, "This animal was shot through the left ventricle of the heart, and, after stumbling for many seconds, lost consciousness. The hunter immediately dressed the animal without waiting or moving the animal long distances. The fatal wound, having killed the animal quickly, suggests a large calibre weapon."

The small gathering claps politely while another platter is placed before him...

aaannd now I'm hungry. Thanks stienman.

stienman said:

The expert deeply inhales the steam from the steak, carefully cuts a small part off the portion, inspects the grain briefly, then chews thoughtfully for severeal seconds.

Carefully patting his lips with the linen napkin and removing the piece from his mouth, he declares with some authority, "This animal was shot through the left ventricle of the heart, and, after stumbling for many seconds, lost consciousness. The hunter immediately dressed the animal without waiting or moving the animal long distances. The fatal wound, having killed the animal quickly, suggests a large calibre weapon."

The small gathering claps politely while another platter is placed before him...

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That is how I imagine it.

At best, I can taste frozen meat vs fresh meat (it does taste different) but that is the extent of my tasting skills.

GasBandit said:

Well, I will say that frog meat is a little too sweet for my palate. But for most of the other stuff, I'm good to go.

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I think frog tastes fine, my problem is all the fiddly little bones that you have to eat around. I propose engineering chicken-sized frogs to solve this problem.

I've seen frogs of that size. I was walking down a stream and saw a frog that was a little bit larger than a football sitting in the middle of the creek. I thought it was some porcelain trash, from its size and the way its green skin was glistening in the dappled sunlight beaming through the forest. I poked it with a stick intending to flip it over to see where it was made... It then leaped nearly a dozen feet down stream... and I nearly crapped my pants.

sixpackshaker said:

I've seen frogs of that size. I was walking down a stream and saw a frog that was a little bit larger than a football sitting in the middle of the creek. I thought it was some porcelain trash, from its size and the way its green skin was glistening in the dappled sunlight beaming through the forest. I poked it with a stick intending to flip it over to see where it was made... It then leaped nearly a dozen feet down stream... and I nearly crapped my pants.

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What was it eating to get that big, I wonder... other frogs?

yes.

Or small children.

squeeee!

figmentPez said:

I'm firmly opposed to vegetarian diets, because I don't believe they're as healthy as those that contain meat and fish. "Lacto-ovo" vegetarian is better, since milk and eggs can provide many of the same nutrients as meat, but trying to balance a purely vegetarian (or worse, vegan) diet to get the essential fatty acids found in meat is difficult, if not impossible (depending on your existing health).

Nick, while I support you wanting to do this for moral reasons, I don't think it's a wise choice from a health perspective. Just my advice.

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Hasn't this been fairly strongly disproven by multiple studies? I will find some links.
Added at: 02:23
I don't know how to say this without hurting feelings or without it feeling like I'm attacking, but I have an idea that the veg = unhealthy argument grows out of people who feel defensive about their decision to continue to eat meat. Every vegetarian I know has been attacked verbally at some point by meat eaters, sometimes viscously. I think it's because people view their decision as a condemnation of the meat eating lifestyle (and it is, really, whether they mean it to be or not).

fade said:

Hasn't this been fairly strongly disproven by multiple studies? I will find some links.

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And those studies were disproven by other studies, which were disproven by... and on and on. Meat is part of a healthy diet. Vegetarian diets can be healthy, but they take more work and are not a viable option for all people.

figmentPez said:

And those studies were disproven by other studies, which were disproven by... and on and on. Meat is part of a healthy diet. Vegetarian diets can be healthy, but they take more work and are not a viable option for all people.

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I was just going to mention. If you have to take Dietary supplements and Vitamins to make up for nutritional gaps you're not eating a healthy diet. Doesn't matter if it's carnivorous or vegan.

fade said:

Hasn't this been fairly strongly disproven by multiple studies? I will find some links.
Added at: 02:23
I don't know how to say this without hurting feelings or without it feeling like I'm attacking, but I have an idea that the veg = unhealthy argument grows out of people who feel defensive about their decision to continue to eat meat. Every vegetarian I know has been attacked verbally at some point by meat eaters, sometimes viscously. I think it's because people view their decision as a condemnation of the meat eating lifestyle (and it is, really, whether they mean it to be or not).

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99.9% of the time it's usually because the vegetarian is being smug about being a vegetarian.

If we're throwing out anecdotal evidence, I've never met a Vegan who wasn't a pretentious douche about it.

Meat-eaters attack vegetarians because that's how the food chain works.

I eat meat.

The only thing that pisses me off is when someone throws it away. If something's gonna die to feed you, have the decency to eat it properly. Goddamn kids, throwing out half their Whopper, cost me $4.50 for that Happy Meal, dammit!

whoppers are from bk and bk has Big Kid's meals not Happy Meals >.>

figmentPez said:

And those studies were disproven by other studies, which were disproven by... and on and on. Meat is part of a healthy diet. Vegetarian diets can be healthy, but they take more work and are not a viable option for all people.

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I'm not so sure about that cyclical disproving thing. There's a fairly weak argument for example about protein that is more or less an urban legend. I will agree that it takes more work, but that's more cultural. The world of procurement and preparation is geared toward a meat diet.

As for the smugness thing, I have literally with my own two eyes on more than one occasion seen a friend say, "I'm a vegetarian" when asked, only to see them torn into. Yes, it's anecdotal, but it's been a fairly regular occurrence.

They should say they are herbivores like a stegosaurus. No one would mess with a stegosaurus.

fade said:

There's a fairly weak argument for example about protein that is more or less an urban legend.

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If you're still talking about protein, then you're behind the latest studies. The biggest arguments are about fats now.

makare said:

No one would mess with a stegosaurus.

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That's because no one knows just how delicious stegasaurii taste.

OM

NOM

NOM

NOM

That is the best smiley ever.

figmentPez said:

If you're still talking about protein, then you're behind the latest studies. The biggest arguments are about fats now.

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Is that a quality or quantity thing? It seems like you could get more than enough fats from nuts/seeds/fatty fruits.

figmentPez said:

If you're still talking about protein, then you're behind the latest studies. The biggest arguments are about fats now.

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The only thing I'm talking about is the biggest argument I hear against vegetarianism.

Well, for one thing, if I invite a vegetarian friend over for dinner, I am expected to provide a vegetarian meal for them.

If they invite me over, however, they certainly don't take into account that I eat meat and provide a meat dish for me.

Covar said:

If we're throwing out anecdotal evidence, I've never met a Vegan who wasn't a pretentious douche about it.

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Isn't that the whole point of being vegan?

drifter said:

Is that a quality or quantity thing? It seems like you could get more than enough fats from nuts/seeds/fatty fruits.

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Quality. Getting enough fats from vegetal sources is not a problem. Getting the right fats, especially essential fatty acids, actually digesting them, processing them, and then using them in the body's system is another problem all together.
Added at: 23:47

fade said:

The only thing I'm talking about is the biggest argument I hear against vegetarianism.

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Well, in my experience the biggest argument for or against just about anything often turns out to be a strawman. It's the smaller arguments, taken as a whole, that really tell the story.
Added at: 23:49

stienman said:

If they invite me over, however, they certainly don't take into account that I eat meat and provide a meat dish for me.

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Do you think they could accommodate me? I could bring them a signed note from my doctor telling them I can't eat a vegetarian diet if they'd like.

The people who eat meat eat both because humans are omnivores. We eat lot's of dishes that have no meat in them and as long as we don't label them as vegetarian we wouldn't even think about it.

stienman said:

Well, for one thing, if I invite a vegetarian friend over for dinner, I am expected to provide a vegetarian meal for them.

If they invite me over, however, they certainly don't take into account that I eat meat and provide a meat dish for me.

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I know you're doing it on purpose, but the easy argument against that is that you've not eliminated vegetables entirely. And besides, we concede many things to guests based on their quirks, not just diet.

Mathias said:

99.9% of the time it's usually because the vegetarian is being smug about being a vegetarian.

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Fuckin' a right.

I would challenge any of you to re-read the last three pages and count how often the vegetarians are acting as pompous douche bags vs. the meat eaters doing so.

the only time I really get annoyed with the people on either side of the argument is when the people who eat meat say something stupid like "yeah well what about plants. don't they feel" or whatever stupid nonsense related to that they come up with. It just makes them look like dipshits.

I think we may need to get a biologist and possible a chemist into this conversation.

this is what I think (again, I'm just an IT guy who was a vegetarian for 15 years but quit 6 years ago)
Your body requires certain nutrients. How you get those nutrients or the quantity require for everyday "survival" is questionable. There are people in the world who live off in different diet. The only one that I'm personally familiar with is China. I have family who lives there who rarely eat meat (cause it is expensive and hard to get) and they eat veggies and fruit (a lot of it) and are pretty healthy. My grandmother is over 90 years old and still pretty mobile and healthy.

Now eating meat is NOT a bad thing (nutrient wise) they do contain a lot of nutrients that your body needs. Of course the argument is that we can get similar nutrient from other sources other than meat. This is where the debate lies. What type of nutrients does your body REALLY need in order to survive, what does it need to thrives? what does it need to be active? (active = working out, body building, heavy outdoor/indoor activities.

Fun Size said:

I would challenge any of you to re-read the last three pages and count how often the vegetarians are acting as pompous douche bags vs. the meat eaters doing so.

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Not a single vegetarian. I do get the feeling that people referencing vegetarians as smug are using real life examples.

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:

Not a single vegetarian. I do get the feeling that people referencing vegetarians as smug are using real life examples.

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The people I've known that went vegan eventually admitted they were only doing it as a political statement.

My point was simply that I am reading that meat eaters attack vegetarians for being "smug assholes", a claim that is itself an attack, unprovoked by an actual vegetarian saying anything at all. This is pretty much commonplace around here, and why I avoid these conversations in general.

Fun Size said:

My point was simply that I am reading that meat eaters attack vegetarians for being "smug assholes", a claim that is itself an attack, unprovoked by an actual vegetarian saying anything at all. This is pretty much commonplace around here, and why I avoid these conversations in general.

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Blame PeTA. They're the ones out there pushing the vegetarian agenda the loudest.

Fuck PeTA.

I would, but they won't accept my meat.

There has to be an animal abuse/beat your meat joke in there somewhere.

PETA protests chicken choking, monkey abuse, mule loping.....

Fun Size said:

I would, but they won't accept my meat.

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Sounds like Nick's prom night...

Fun Size said:

I would, but they won't accept my meat.

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Damnit, Fun Size!

You owe me a new keyboard.

*continues wiping up the water*

Fun Size said:

My point was simply that I am reading that meat eaters attack vegetarians for being "smug assholes", a claim that is itself an attack, unprovoked by an actual vegetarian saying anything at all. This is pretty much commonplace around here, and why I avoid these conversations in general.

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It depends on the vegetarian. If you encounter one that doing it for health, then you don't see the "smugness" but some vegan are doing it for political, those are the one who are "smug" (PeTA is a good example)

When I was a vegetarian, I was doing it for health. I never force my eating habits to my friends. I always adapt as best as I could when going out with my friends. I didn't make sure the food were "cook in separate cookware" or "peanut oil only" I just eat the food without the meat and just have fun.

makare said:

The people who eat meat eat both because humans are omnivores. We eat lot's of dishes that have no meat in them and as long as we don't label them as vegetarian we wouldn't even think about it.

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I've never been really comfortable with the label "omnivore." Omni means "all," and I don't feel qualified to claim the omni prefix until in addition to being carnivorous and herbivorous, I'm also lithovorous, sanguivorous and saprovorous at the very least.

GasBandit said:

I've never been really comfortable with the label "omnivore." Omni means "all," and I don't feel qualified to claim the omni prefix until in addition to being carnivorous and herbivorous, I'm also lithovorous, sanguivorous and saprovorous at the very least.

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"Omni" may mean all but "omnivore" just means they eat both plants and animals.

That dur statement aside somewhere in the world there are humans that eat pretty much anything. After all this time I can make an educated assertion that you are a human. I wouldn't bet my life on it though.

Chibibar said:

I think we may need to get a biologist and possible a chemist into this conversation.

this is what I think (again, I'm just an IT guy who was a vegetarian for 15 years but quit 6 years ago)
Your body requires certain nutrients. How you get those nutrients or the quantity require for everyday "survival" is questionable. There are people in the world who live off in different diet. The only one that I'm personally familiar with is China. I have family who lives there who rarely eat meat (cause it is expensive and hard to get) and they eat veggies and fruit (a lot of it) and are pretty healthy. My grandmother is over 90 years old and still pretty mobile and healthy.

Now eating meat is NOT a bad thing (nutrient wise) they do contain a lot of nutrients that your body needs. Of course the argument is that we can get similar nutrient from other sources other than meat. This is where the debate lies. What type of nutrients does your body REALLY need in order to survive, what does it need to thrives? what does it need to be active? (active = working out, body building, heavy outdoor/indoor activities.

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Or a biochemist.... like me....

just sayin....

If you want to be whores about it. Our 'natural' diet is pretty much what Chimps and Gorillas eat in the wild. That's what our bodies evolved to process: lots of tree bark, berries, and occasional squirrel that we accidentally stepped on.

But we said fuck you to chimps and gorillas the day our ancestors decided to make spears and roast a nice wooly mammoth carcass over a roaring fire.

So there you have it. Vegetarians are pretty much stupider than cavemen.

makare said:

"Omni" may mean all but "omnivore" just means they eat both plants and animals.

That dur statement aside somewhere in the world there are humans that eat pretty much anything. After all this time I can make an educated assertion that you are a human. I wouldn't bet my life on it though.

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It only means that because of a widely (ok, universally) accepted misapplication of the prefix. I think a better term would be multivore (eater of many) instead of omnivore (eater of all).

As for the "somebody somewhere will eat pretty much anything" bit, just because Crazy Eddie eats a Volkswagen one piece at a time doesn't make him a Lithovore... you have to be able to survive on it.

As much as I love a good semantics argument and by the gods I DO, this one is just too dumb.

You know what, forget it. Not worth it.

Fun Size said:

You know what, forget it. Not worth it.

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Sounds like my prom night.