Halforums Rampant Negativity

[Dave]

**The following is not leveled at anyone in particular, regardless of what some may think. This is about the forum as a whole, not specific people.**

I've gotten several reports, PMs and emails about the rampant negativity here and it frankly concerns me. Every thread turns into a flame war, every topic degenerates into either a pissing match or a fight for dominance. In a lot of cases, posts that are obviously jokingly done are taken seriously and things go from there. I know for a fact that we've lost a few people over this and that it a shame. I fear the general tone also may be driving those away who are lurking and not bothering to post because they don't want to put up with the pain and aggravation of being attacked.

So what to do about it? Frankly, I'm at my wit's end and am not sure what to do. I want this place to stay safe and active, so I created the Flame Wars section to try and keep things out of the way. But the New Post button does away with that. I *LOVE* the New Post button, so I'm not blaming that in the least. It just took away a good idea and made it worthless.

Do we need more moderation? I know we need better rules governing behavior, but I've been loath to be too strict lest we drive people away by being a Nazi regime.

To be clear: I am not at the point where I say fuck it and walk away, but I am starting to wonder if the time and effort is worth it sometimes. That's an honest statement right there. I am NOT thinking of leaving or turning anything over to anyone else, I'm just letting you all know how fed up I am getting sometimes.

Is anyone else feeling the bad vibes? Lurkers, does the attitude of the place have anything to do with your lurking status? Common posters, are you getting frustrated with the tone? Or is it just a few and I'm feeding off of that?

If this is something that we are all noticing then it is up to US to fix. What can we do to heal the rifts? Do we need a banhammer now that Zen's gone? Would that be heavy handed? Have I been too lax? I'm opening the floor, HF. Help me figure out what I need to do to keep this place alive and thriving.

And for the record, personal attacks in this thread will be deleted and a warning will be issued to the poster. If you have an issue with a specific poster send me a PM and tell me why and I'll try and see what I can do. But if you mention a user's name here it better be constructive. Yes, that's totally subjective by me but I'm not in the mood to fuck around. Yes, this is what Serious Dave looks like.

 

[Gusto]

I have noticed it a bit but not even close to the extent where it merits "doing something about it".

*shrug*

 

[Espy]

I agree. There is a point where the personal attacks go beyond just being funny. I've done my share of warnings, I've even used the dreaded "other color text" but maybe that isn't enough.

I do want to add, please, PLEASE use the report post button. Us mods do see it and we will act on it.

 

[Shakey]

I'm not a big fan of the Flame Wars section. The only thing it does is breed more animosity between people.

 

[doomdragon6]

I've sort of noticed it. I've been posting a lot less and reading a lot fewer of the threads, though.

I think mostly everyone here knows each other now and there's not really anything new to talk about. All that's left is to make jokes and then take offense. At this point everyone already knows everyone's stance on things, so it's easy to make attacks against people posters have decided they "don't like."

But even when things are kept civil, there's still this air of negativity.

I dunno. My opinion is that we don't have enough different people posting. The same, like, 30 people are hugely active on here. We can't do much about that, but I'ono.

I'd hate to see this place go, that's for sure. Granted, most I ever check now is Shawn's D&D game.

 

[BoringMetaphor]

As an avid lurker, what stops me from posting the most is the people who refuse to pretend to agree or not say anything at all because you do disagree. This seems like the polite thing to do in some cases.

A lot of the time I sit here and think, man why even post that? I know it's a discussion forum, but sometimes can't you just let other people have their own point of view and move on?

So I dont post a lot because I find the discussion frustrating at best. Its less discussion and more arguments.

 

[Krisken]

I'm not a big fan of the Flame Wars section. The only thing it does is breed more animosity between people.

That's sorta how I feel about it too.

I'd also argue that "obviously joking" isn't always obvious, especially in a written medium.

I know I've had my share of dick head moments. I'm willing to step aside more often rather than push back in the interest of forum civility.

 

[Silver Jelly]

I know I got pretty pissed for nothing a few days ago, but that's because I was sick with the flu and felt like ass... I try to be funny and more or less nice all around, but I have to say I was thinking about this "negativity" a few minutes ago and blamed it to something that is stressing everybody, wondering what it may be.
But I didn't want to say anything because of my recent asshattery...

I mean, the steak thread is much more than I could have imagined a thread about meat could become...

 

[Espy]

I mean, the steak thread is much more than I could have imagined a thread about meat could become...

It was like landing on the moon.

 

[Silver Jelly]

I mean, the steak thread is much more than I could have imagined a thread about meat could become...

It was like landing on the moon.[/QUOTE]

With strippers!

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Is anyone complaining about me?

Also: Dear god no. More moderation is not the answer. What we need is, perhaps ironically (I'm convinced no-one actually knows what the word ironic means anymore), more posters so we're not grating on each other.

**No names. Didn't I say no names?**
**I didn't read that far in your post . . . just as you didn't in mine. **

(So, anyone other than Gas complaining about me?)

 

[Espy]

Thinking about it: Snarkiness is going to be here, it has always been here since pre-image days and certainly at image and at HP. I think it's fine, but there has been some real personal attacks in both tags and in posts I have tried to deal with that I really think go a little beyond what we want here.

 

[Frank]

I dunno, this place really has nothing on some of the political discussions I see on Blue Line's private section. There's no mercy there.

 

[Cheesy1]

My main reason for not being as active as a lot of people around here is because I'm just a boring person. But I think that most of you guys are great! I'm also amazed at the diversity of people that come here. And for the most part, you guys talk about the same geeky interests that I have. Yeah, some of us need to grow a thicker skin or pull a little bit of that stick out of their ass, but that's typical at times for most groups of friends. I think our biggest problem is what was said earlier, that we just need to get an influx of new people in here. As far as how to do that though, I'm not sure. :noidea:

 

[Lally]

My biggest thing is, I am tired of seeing the same people sniping at each other from thread to thread. It's one thing if I see people have a disagreement that are civil to each other normally, and I don't have a problem with anyone individually, but to see people chasing each other around threads, I'm like "really guys???"

If I had to say whether it was affecting my posting or not, I'm not sure. I was only a frequent poster here and there to begin with. But I see myself lurking less, and just seeing the people I know and like elsewhere (like Twitter or AIM).

 

[AshburnerX]

I think we could use a bit more moderation. People just aren't stopping with the personal attacks and it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it. If your going to get a mod, get someone who isn't afraid of swinging the banhammer.

 

[Espy]

it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it.

I'd like to say that again, you don't have to ask them. You can report the post and we will ask them. They can gang up on us all they want, it don't matter none to us.

 

[DarkAudit]

I think we could use a bit more moderation. People just aren't stopping with the personal attacks and it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it. If your going to get a mod, get someone who isn't afraid of swinging the banhammer.

This. There have been multiple instances where a mod had publicly told someone to stop with the idiocy, and said poster publicly told the mod to get bent and carried on as before. Nothing was done because the poster had "been around forever". Veteran status should not be carte blanche to shit all over other people, and certainly not to blatently show up mods like that.

 

[Dave]

I think we could use a bit more moderation. People just aren't stopping with the personal attacks and it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it. If your going to get a mod, get someone who isn't afraid of swinging the banhammer.

This. There have been multiple instances where a mod had publicly told someone to stop with the idiocy, and said poster publicly told the mod to get bent and carried on as before. Nothing was done because the poster had "been around forever". Veteran status should not be carte blanche to shit all over other people, and certainly not to blatently show up mods like that.[/QUOTE]

We took care of that in PMs. They got away with nothing. But I can certainly see how the perception of this must look. In the future we will at least put in a note that we took it to PMs.

 

[Espy]

We took care of that in PMs. They got away with nothing. But I can certainly see how the perception of this must look. In the future we will at least put in a note that we took it to PMs.

Yup. I'd say that 100 percent of the time things (obvious and/or REPORTED things that is, if you don't report it we don't always see it!) are dealt with. However, that does not mean they are dealt with publicly.

 

[Dave]

And as to the Banhammer, I'm going back and forth between bringing in a new Keating (sp?) or having the mods step up. But frankly, I picked our mods because they had level dispositions so they are like me when it comes to the banhammer - they take things way too calmly.

The banhammer I have in mind might ruffle some feathers - including mine - which is why I've been slow & deliberate to pull the trigger there.

Seriously, I am getting fairly mixed signals here. Some think it's not bad and some think as I do that the level of dickishness has been on the rise. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive lately, but I've had moe than a few PMs and we really need to get a handle on things before we go the way of the dodo. I realize that more people would be a great thing, but to get them here we have to put out the good china and dust off the linens, not fling poop everywhere and hope that they're monkeys, too.

 

[LordRavage]

I tend to lurk more then post. I really do like this place and alot of the people here. At times I do hold back from posting because I dont want to be an attention whore...but I just like to share everything. Plus people get very heated about things. Once a thread starts flaming, I sit back and watch but dont want to join in because life is way too short to get mad and upset over who is right, wrong or indifferent.

I try to add smilies when I post to indicate everything I am writing is in fun.

I guess it comes down to community. There are A LOT of good people here. This is the reason I keep coming back but trying to find things to talk about and have fun can be difficult.

Dave, you have done a beyond fantastic job with this place and maybe you need to hear that more often. As for people, I deal with them everyday....there is no pleasing the masses.

But you know whats really fun....poker nights! Talking trash and playing cards while having a few drinks is fun. Halforum needs a poker night. That way, people can talk shit and play cards..

Maybe add background music player with soothing music..or channels of music so people can enjoy. Each person can turn it on or off....just not sure what that will do to the bandwidth.

Add more role playing sections. I used to be apart of a forum where you made any type of character you wanted, followed ground rules and wrote out stories. (I believe it was called Cafe De Minute or something french) The stories would intertwine with each other. Some people played gods they made up, others played normal people that simply walked in and everyone else played all sorts of supernatural creatures. No dice was involved. Just good story telling and respecting other peoples creations. you start trashing someone out of character, the ban hammer came down.

Just throwing ideas out there. Personally, I think we just have to keep heading in the direction of fun and less on the Hunter Killer style we see now and again.

I think all of us in Halforum need to move toward the light.

 

[Espy]

I think all of us in Halforum need to move toward the light.

As long as it isn't the TWI light.

 

[Silver Jelly]

Regarding the banhammer and stricter moderation... I think it could kill this forum. What we need is some good vibes, and maybe some new forumites.

 

[Dave]

Regarding the banhammer and stricter moderation... I think it could kill this forum. What we need is some good vibes, and maybe some new forumites.

Another reason why I've hesitated pulling the trigger on that.

 

[phil]

Honestly I feel that there is no moderation here. There are posts with blatant bigotry and personal attacks and nothing ever happens. Hell, we usually cheer it on and label it "adding flavor to the boards" or something.

I feel like eventually one of two things will happen. Either we'll admit that this is just a troll forum and people who aren't into that will slowly trickle out or we'll have to start actually handing out temp bans and actual punishments to get the trolling in control, which will drive the trolls away.

There are some things that I think would help to maybe prevent it coming down to something like that though. One is to have the mods watch the tags a bit closer. 50% of the tags in a thread are just anonymous snarky remarks and I think that just encourages the flaming. I'd be fine with them being removed all together.

We might also want to consider changing out the mods if they're getting tiered of moderating. Perhaps putting a few on a rotation would help keep the forum something fun for them instead of a chore, if they see it as such. New mods could come in and help keep things in control for a while before taking a break and not having to deal with the bullshit for a while.

The flame war section is something I'm kind of on the fence about. Perhaps, if we become stricter in other areas it might be a good place for people to go and get the trolling out of their system for a bit. Perhaps though it might just breed more hate between people.


As it stands right now though, it just seems like this place has bi-polar or something. Sometimes it can be an alright place to hang out, but everyone couple of months or so things get incredibly sketchy and dark and everyone is at each other's throats. If this keeps up things are probably going to go downhill soon. I say we either deal with the problem or embrace it and turn this place into /hal/

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

that deserves to be a tag, [strike]phil[/strike], er, I mean poster-above-me!

Is that over the line? I never know where the line is. Sometimes it's a mile away, sometimes I'm crossing it thinking it's a mile away.

 

[Gusto]

This all seems pretty sensationalist...

hwell:

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I haven't really noticed a problem.

I think it's an easier solution to set your lines, and start temp-banning people. Just ban them for a set period of time whenever you set the line, and they step over it. Perma-bans can be saved for people that are toxic to the community and refuse to change.

I also think threads like this are relatively worthless without examples and names being named.

 

[IronBrig4]

I've noticed that too. Things were a lot more pleasant during the Halfpixel days when we'd have hundreds of posters. New members is all we need so the same people stop attacking one another.

 

[Dave]

So...we need more roommates?

 

[Twitch]

I haven't really noticed a problem.

I think it's an easier solution to set your lines, and start temp-banning people. Just ban them for a set period of time whenever you set the line, and they step over it. Perma-bans can be saved for people that are toxic to the community and refuse to change.

I also think threads like this are relatively worthless without examples and names being named.

Didn't he say you could name names if it WAS constructive? I think that perhaps cycling moderation if the mods are tired of it could be good or stepping up with a few more mods. There aren't really times here where a perma ban is necessary but a temp would calm people down and if they're to childish to take a temporary ban from a forum then they're probably stirring things up anyways. It's kind of like with schools, do you expel students for almost any infraction?

 

[Dave]

Warning
1 Hour Ban
1 Day Ban
1 Month Ban
Permaban


This is the escalation levels we are looking at. But we need better rules with more airtight directions. Otherwise it's going to turn into a mod version of "Because I said so!" and that would be destructive.

So I'm thinking what we need is a rules lawyer to step up (or someone who knows of a great place to steal their rules) and show us the way. In 25 days it'll have been a year since I've been doing this. I've made mistakes and I'll continue to. But I want to get better and make this a place for those who are afraid to post for fear of being jumped on. I want them to be able to post without fear. And yes, there are people like that out there.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

So...we need more roommates?

I did my part a year ago, don't look at me

 

[phil]

I think we need to deal with the problem first before we can expect to increase traffic here. Personally, based on how we react to kurtz and tom sometimes, I would not want to have my webcomic's forum be here.

I think temp bans would be fine and not as bad as some people think. However, we need to be sure that people know when and why someone was temp banned.

Something that Zen would do, which I disagreed with, is she would lock a thread when things got out of hand and throw it in the hall of shame. While it was good that the drama was taken care of, it sometimes killed some otherwise legit threads. I think when someone gets out of line the mods should deal with it, and post what punishment was taken in the appropriate post.