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Halforums Rampant Negativity

Nov 3, 2009#1

Dave

**The following is not leveled at anyone in particular, regardless of what some may think. This is about the forum as a whole, not specific people.**

I've gotten several reports, PMs and emails about the rampant negativity here and it frankly concerns me. Every thread turns into a flame war, every topic degenerates into either a pissing match or a fight for dominance. In a lot of cases, posts that are obviously jokingly done are taken seriously and things go from there. I know for a fact that we've lost a few people over this and that it a shame. I fear the general tone also may be driving those away who are lurking and not bothering to post because they don't want to put up with the pain and aggravation of being attacked.

So what to do about it? Frankly, I'm at my wit's end and am not sure what to do. I want this place to stay safe and active, so I created the Flame Wars section to try and keep things out of the way. But the New Post button does away with that. I *LOVE* the New Post button, so I'm not blaming that in the least. It just took away a good idea and made it worthless.

Do we need more moderation? I know we need better rules governing behavior, but I've been loath to be too strict lest we drive people away by being a Nazi regime.

To be clear: I am not at the point where I say fuck it and walk away, but I am starting to wonder if the time and effort is worth it sometimes. That's an honest statement right there. I am NOT thinking of leaving or turning anything over to anyone else, I'm just letting you all know how fed up I am getting sometimes.

Is anyone else feeling the bad vibes? Lurkers, does the attitude of the place have anything to do with your lurking status? Common posters, are you getting frustrated with the tone? Or is it just a few and I'm feeding off of that?

If this is something that we are all noticing then it is up to US to fix. What can we do to heal the rifts? Do we need a banhammer now that Zen's gone? Would that be heavy handed? Have I been too lax? I'm opening the floor, HF. Help me figure out what I need to do to keep this place alive and thriving.

And for the record, personal attacks in this thread will be deleted and a warning will be issued to the poster. If you have an issue with a specific poster send me a PM and tell me why and I'll try and see what I can do. But if you mention a user's name here it better be constructive. Yes, that's totally subjective by me but I'm not in the mood to fuck around. Yes, this is what Serious Dave looks like.

Nov 3, 2009#2

Gusto

I have noticed it a bit but not even close to the extent where it merits "doing something about it".

*shrug*

Nov 3, 2009#3

Espy

I agree. There is a point where the personal attacks go beyond just being funny. I've done my share of warnings, I've even used the dreaded "other color text" but maybe that isn't enough.

I do want to add, please, PLEASE use the report post button. Us mods do see it and we will act on it.

Nov 3, 2009#4

Shakey

I'm not a big fan of the Flame Wars section. The only thing it does is breed more animosity between people.

Nov 3, 2009#5

doomdragon6

I've sort of noticed it. I've been posting a lot less and reading a lot fewer of the threads, though.

I think mostly everyone here knows each other now and there's not really anything new to talk about. All that's left is to make jokes and then take offense. At this point everyone already knows everyone's stance on things, so it's easy to make attacks against people posters have decided they "don't like."

But even when things are kept civil, there's still this air of negativity.

I dunno. My opinion is that we don't have enough different people posting. The same, like, 30 people are hugely active on here. We can't do much about that, but I'ono.

I'd hate to see this place go, that's for sure. Granted, most I ever check now is Shawn's D&D game.

Nov 3, 2009#6

BoringMetaphor

As an avid lurker, what stops me from posting the most is the people who refuse to pretend to agree or not say anything at all because you do disagree. This seems like the polite thing to do in some cases.

A lot of the time I sit here and think, man why even post that? I know it's a discussion forum, but sometimes can't you just let other people have their own point of view and move on?

So I dont post a lot because I find the discussion frustrating at best. Its less discussion and more arguments.

Nov 3, 2009#7

Krisken

Shakey said:
I'm not a big fan of the Flame Wars section. The only thing it does is breed more animosity between people.

That's sorta how I feel about it too.

I'd also argue that "obviously joking" isn't always obvious, especially in a written medium.

I know I've had my share of dick head moments. I'm willing to step aside more often rather than push back in the interest of forum civility.

Nov 3, 2009#8

Silver Jelly

I know I got pretty pissed for nothing a few days ago, but that's because I was sick with the flu and felt like ass... I try to be funny and more or less nice all around, but I have to say I was thinking about this "negativity" a few minutes ago and blamed it to something that is stressing everybody, wondering what it may be.
But I didn't want to say anything because of my recent asshattery...

I mean, the steak thread is much more than I could have imagined a thread about meat could become...

Nov 3, 2009#9

Espy

Silver Jelly said:
I mean, the steak thread is much more than I could have imagined a thread about meat could become...

It was like landing on the moon.

Nov 3, 2009#10

Silver Jelly

Espy;288923][quote=Silver Jelly said:
I mean, the steak thread is much more than I could have imagined a thread about meat could become...

It was like landing on the moon.[/QUOTE]

With strippers!

Nov 3, 2009#11

Kitty Sinatra

Is anyone complaining about me?

Also: Dear god no. More moderation is not the answer. What we need is, perhaps ironically (I'm convinced no-one actually knows what the word ironic means anymore), more posters so we're not grating on each other.

**No names. Didn't I say no names?**
**I didn't read that far in your post . . . just as you didn't in mine.

**

(So, anyone other than Gas complaining about me?)

Nov 3, 2009#12

Espy

Thinking about it: Snarkiness is going to be here, it has always been here since pre-image days and certainly at image and at HP. I think it's fine, but there has been some real personal attacks in both tags and in posts I have tried to deal with that I really think go a little beyond what we want here.

Nov 3, 2009#13

Frankie Williamson

I dunno, this place really has nothing on some of the political discussions I see on Blue Line's private section. There's no mercy there.

Nov 3, 2009#14

Cheesy1

My main reason for not being as active as a lot of people around here is because I'm just a boring person. But I think that most of you guys are great! I'm also amazed at the diversity of people that come here. And for the most part, you guys talk about the same geeky interests that I have. Yeah, some of us need to grow a thicker skin or pull a little bit of that stick out of their ass, but that's typical at times for most groups of friends. I think our biggest problem is what was said earlier, that we just need to get an influx of new people in here. As far as how to do that though, I'm not sure. :noidea:

Nov 3, 2009#15

Lally

My biggest thing is, I am tired of seeing the same people sniping at each other from thread to thread. It's one thing if I see people have a disagreement that are civil to each other normally, and I don't have a problem with anyone individually, but to see people chasing each other around threads, I'm like "really guys???"

If I had to say whether it was affecting my posting or not, I'm not sure. I was only a frequent poster here and there to begin with. But I see myself lurking less, and just seeing the people I know and like elsewhere (like Twitter or AIM).

Nov 3, 2009#16

AshburnerX

I think we could use a bit more moderation. People just aren't stopping with the personal attacks and it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it. If your going to get a mod, get someone who isn't afraid of swinging the banhammer.

Nov 3, 2009#17

Espy

AshburnerX said:
it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it.

I'd like to say that again, you don't have to ask them. You can report the post and we will ask them. They can gang up on us all they want, it don't matter none to us.

Nov 3, 2009#18

DarkAudit

AshburnerX said:
I think we could use a bit more moderation. People just aren't stopping with the personal attacks and it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it. If your going to get a mod, get someone who isn't afraid of swinging the banhammer.

Nov 3, 2009#19

Dave

DarkAudit;288949][quote=AshburnerX said:
I think we could use a bit more moderation. People just aren't stopping with the personal attacks and it honestly feels like that if you ask someone to stop, the rest of the forum gang up on you for it. If your going to get a mod, get someone who isn't afraid of swinging the banhammer.

This. There have been multiple instances where a mod had publicly told someone to stop with the idiocy, and said poster publicly told the mod to get bent and carried on as before. Nothing was done because the poster had "been around forever". Veteran status should not be carte blanche to shit all over other people, and certainly not to blatently show up mods like that.[/QUOTE]

We took care of that in PMs. They got away with nothing. But I can certainly see how the perception of this must look. In the future we will at least put in a note that we took it to PMs.

Nov 3, 2009#20

Espy

Dave said:
We took care of that in PMs. They got away with nothing. But I can certainly see how the perception of this must look. In the future we will at least put in a note that we took it to PMs.

Yup. I'd say that 100 percent of the time things (obvious and/or REPORTED things that is, if you don't report it we don't always see it!) are dealt with. However, that does not mean they are dealt with publicly.

Nov 3, 2009#21

Dave

And as to the Banhammer, I'm going back and forth between bringing in a new Keating (sp?) or having the mods step up. But frankly, I picked our mods because they had level dispositions so they are like me when it comes to the banhammer - they take things way too calmly.

The banhammer I have in mind might ruffle some feathers - including mine - which is why I've been slow & deliberate to pull the trigger there.

Seriously, I am getting fairly mixed signals here. Some think it's not bad and some think as I do that the level of dickishness has been on the rise. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive lately, but I've had moe than a few PMs and we really need to get a handle on things before we go the way of the dodo. I realize that more people would be a great thing, but to get them here we have to put out the good china and dust off the linens, not fling poop everywhere and hope that they're monkeys, too.

Nov 3, 2009#22

LordRavage

I tend to lurk more then post. I really do like this place and alot of the people here. At times I do hold back from posting because I dont want to be an attention whore...but I just like to share everything. Plus people get very heated about things. Once a thread starts flaming, I sit back and watch but dont want to join in because life is way too short to get mad and upset over who is right, wrong or indifferent.

I try to add smilies when I post to indicate everything I am writing is in fun.

I guess it comes down to community. There are A LOT of good people here. This is the reason I keep coming back but trying to find things to talk about and have fun can be difficult.

Dave, you have done a beyond fantastic job with this place and maybe you need to hear that more often. As for people, I deal with them everyday....there is no pleasing the masses.

But you know whats really fun....poker nights! Talking trash and playing cards while having a few drinks is fun. Halforum needs a poker night. That way, people can talk shit and play cards..

Maybe add background music player with soothing music..or channels of music so people can enjoy. Each person can turn it on or off....just not sure what that will do to the bandwidth.

Add more role playing sections. I used to be apart of a forum where you made any type of character you wanted, followed ground rules and wrote out stories. (I believe it was called Cafe De Minute or something french) The stories would intertwine with each other. Some people played gods they made up, others played normal people that simply walked in and everyone else played all sorts of supernatural creatures. No dice was involved. Just good story telling and respecting other peoples creations. you start trashing someone out of character, the ban hammer came down.

Just throwing ideas out there. Personally, I think we just have to keep heading in the direction of fun and less on the Hunter Killer style we see now and again.

I think all of us in Halforum need to move toward the light.

Nov 3, 2009#23

Espy

LordRavage said:
I think all of us in Halforum need to move toward the light.

As long as it isn't the TWI light.

Nov 3, 2009#24

Silver Jelly

Regarding the banhammer and stricter moderation... I think it could kill this forum. What we need is some good vibes, and maybe some new forumites.

Nov 3, 2009#25

Dave

Silver Jelly said:
Regarding the banhammer and stricter moderation... I think it could kill this forum. What we need is some good vibes, and maybe some new forumites.

Another reason why I've hesitated pulling the trigger on that.

Nov 3, 2009#26

phil

Honestly I feel that there is no moderation here. There are posts with blatant bigotry and personal attacks and nothing ever happens. Hell, we usually cheer it on and label it "adding flavor to the boards" or something.

I feel like eventually one of two things will happen. Either we'll admit that this is just a troll forum and people who aren't into that will slowly trickle out or we'll have to start actually handing out temp bans and actual punishments to get the trolling in control, which will drive the trolls away.

There are some things that I think would help to maybe prevent it coming down to something like that though. One is to have the mods watch the tags a bit closer. 50% of the tags in a thread are just anonymous snarky remarks and I think that just encourages the flaming. I'd be fine with them being removed all together.

We might also want to consider changing out the mods if they're getting tiered of moderating. Perhaps putting a few on a rotation would help keep the forum something fun for them instead of a chore, if they see it as such. New mods could come in and help keep things in control for a while before taking a break and not having to deal with the bullshit for a while.

The flame war section is something I'm kind of on the fence about. Perhaps, if we become stricter in other areas it might be a good place for people to go and get the trolling out of their system for a bit. Perhaps though it might just breed more hate between people.

As it stands right now though, it just seems like this place has bi-polar or something. Sometimes it can be an alright place to hang out, but everyone couple of months or so things get incredibly sketchy and dark and everyone is at each other's throats. If this keeps up things are probably going to go downhill soon. I say we either deal with the problem or embrace it and turn this place into /hal/

Nov 3, 2009#27

Kitty Sinatra

that deserves to be a tag, [strike]phil[/strike], er, I mean poster-above-me!

Is that over the line? I never know where the line is. Sometimes it's a mile away, sometimes I'm crossing it thinking it's a mile away.

Nov 3, 2009#28

Gusto

This all seems pretty sensationalist...

:eek:

hwell:

Nov 3, 2009#29

The Lovely Boehner

I haven't really noticed a problem.

I think it's an easier solution to set your lines, and start temp-banning people. Just ban them for a set period of time whenever you set the line, and they step over it. Perma-bans can be saved for people that are toxic to the community and refuse to change.

I also think threads like this are relatively worthless without examples and names being named.

Nov 3, 2009#30

IronBrig4

I've noticed that too. Things were a lot more pleasant during the Halfpixel days when we'd have hundreds of posters. New members is all we need so the same people stop attacking one another.

Nov 3, 2009#31

Dave

So...we need more roommates?

Nov 3, 2009#32

Twitch

Charlie Dont Surf said:
I haven't really noticed a problem.

I think it's an easier solution to set your lines, and start temp-banning people. Just ban them for a set period of time whenever you set the line, and they step over it. Perma-bans can be saved for people that are toxic to the community and refuse to change.

I also think threads like this are relatively worthless without examples and names being named.

Didn't he say you could name names if it WAS constructive? I think that perhaps cycling moderation if the mods are tired of it could be good or stepping up with a few more mods. There aren't really times here where a perma ban is necessary but a temp would calm people down and if they're to childish to take a temporary ban from a forum then they're probably stirring things up anyways. It's kind of like with schools, do you expel students for almost any infraction?

Nov 3, 2009#33

Dave

Warning
1 Hour Ban
1 Day Ban
1 Month Ban
Permaban

This is the escalation levels we are looking at. But we need better rules with more airtight directions. Otherwise it's going to turn into a mod version of "Because I said so!" and that would be destructive.

So I'm thinking what we need is a rules lawyer to step up (or someone who knows of a great place to steal their rules) and show us the way. In 25 days it'll have been a year since I've been doing this. I've made mistakes and I'll continue to. But I want to get better and make this a place for those who are afraid to post for fear of being jumped on. I want them to be able to post without fear. And yes, there are people like that out there.

Nov 3, 2009#34

The Lovely Boehner

Dave said:
So...we need more roommates?

I did my part a year ago, don't look at me

Nov 3, 2009#35

phil

I think we need to deal with the problem first before we can expect to increase traffic here. Personally, based on how we react to kurtz and tom sometimes, I would not want to have my webcomic's forum be here.

I think temp bans would be fine and not as bad as some people think. However, we need to be sure that people know when and why someone was temp banned.

Something that Zen would do, which I disagreed with, is she would lock a thread when things got out of hand and throw it in the hall of shame. While it was good that the drama was taken care of, it sometimes killed some otherwise legit threads. I think when someone gets out of line the mods should deal with it, and post what punishment was taken in the appropriate post.

Nov 3, 2009#36

Chippy

I doubt anyone complained about me. I'm a sweet angel.

Nov 3, 2009#37

Wasabi Poptart

Shakey said:
I'm not a big fan of the Flame Wars section. The only thing it does is breed more animosity between people.

Krisken said:
I'd also argue that "obviously joking" isn't always obvious, especially in a written medium.

BoringMetaphor said:
A lot of the time I sit here and think, man why even post that? I know it's a discussion forum, but sometimes can't you just let other people have their own point of view and move on?

So I dont post a lot because I find the discussion frustrating at best. Its less discussion and more arguments.

Lally said:
My biggest thing is, I am tired of seeing the same people sniping at each other from thread to thread. It's one thing if I see people have a disagreement that are civil to each other normally, and I don't have a problem with anyone individually, but to see people chasing each other around threads, I'm like "really guys???"

All that.

Nov 3, 2009#38

phil

Dave said:
Warning
1 Hour Ban
1 Day Ban
1 Month Ban
Permaban

This is the escalation levels we are looking at.
.

Nov 3, 2009#39

Espy

phil;289006][quote=Dave said:
Warning
1 Hour Ban
1 Day Ban
1 Month Ban
Permaban

This is the escalation levels we are looking at.
.

Nov 3, 2009#40

Krisken

Espy;289008][quote=phil;289006][quote=Dave said:
Warning
1 Hour Ban
1 Day Ban
1 Month Ban
Permaban

This is the escalation levels we are looking at.
.

Nov 3, 2009#41

phil

Espy;289008][quote=phil;289006][quote=Dave said:
Warning
1 Hour Ban
1 Day Ban
1 Month Ban
Permaban

This is the escalation levels we are looking at.
.

I disagree that it should escalate like that. Perhaps instead people should be banned for a limmited time based on the severity of what happened.

For example, if I get into a heated debate and it's starting to get out of control on my end, that would really only be worth an hour or so ban as that's an alright time to let someone cool their jets. If someone specifically asked that I not joke about their situation, but I continued to do so anyway that would be more like a 24-48 hour ban. If I just come strait out and use some kind of slur that would be more like a month.[/QUOTE]
Basically you are asking for the same thing. If you do something out of line you get a warning. Everyone can agree on that.
You go further, you get a 1 hour ban.
You push on and shit gets real.[/QUOTE]

not exactly. Basically what I mean is each instance should be looked at individually. Sure, if you got your one hour ban and came back for more that would mean upping the punishment. But what I'm talking about is if for some reason Cajungal, who surprises me whenever she drops an F bomb, just suddenly called someone a racial slur then that would require more than just the next level of punishment. Similarly, I don't think if someone already has a one day ban, should automatically go to a month ban for accidentally going too far with a joke.

infractions should be dealt with on a case by case basis to determine punishment.

Nov 3, 2009#42

North_Ranger

Personally, I've been tempted to yell "Sit down and shut up!" to one or two folks here... But I've tried to keep things light with humour.

But if people so wish... Hammer of Justice it is.

Luckily we have some new folks here, and I sincerely hope that those who make me want to yell at them know who they are.

The gloves're comin' off.

The pants already are.

Nov 3, 2009#43

The Lovely Boehner

I meant the naming of names, or linking to posts etc by the people that think there's a problem.

Nov 3, 2009#44

Rob King

A thought about the flame war section: If the New Posts function defeats the purpose of having a separate subforum for that stuff, is there a way to make Flame Wars (and NSFW, for that matter) invisible to the New Posts function.

That makes more sense for me anyways. If the point of making it a separate sub-forum was to make it so that you had to go LOOKING for it in order to find it, then it shouldn't show up in the New Posts anyways.

Nov 3, 2009#45

LordRavage

Sigh...we keep going back to the ban hammer.

I have to agree with North Ranger.....Humor is a much better weapon. Someone starts flaming..I rather throw water on them then blasting them into space. But its easier said then done. I talk to my employees to death and some of them never get it. I have had to let some go in the past because they simply didnt get that coming in late and screaming at people will get you fired.

*Shrugs*

Nov 3, 2009#46

Kitty Sinatra

Charlie Dont Surf said:
I meant the naming of names, or linking to posts etc by the people that think there's a problem.

You can still name names and link to posts if you think that'll do anything. Just not here.

Says the guy who named names. Here.

Nov 3, 2009#47

Soliloquy

Maybe I just haven't been around enough recently, but I've always felt that there's been a consistent level of underlying negativity ever since the Halfpixel days.

If we want to change that, then yes, the mods need to do something. Nothing changes on its own.

---------- Post added at 01:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

phil said:
infractions should be dealt with on a case by case basis to determine punishment.

The trouble is, then it becomes subjective, and just another version of mods saying "Because I said so."

Nov 3, 2009#48

Twitch

PM's work on this forum right? I'll feel pretty stupid if I sent my thoughts and it doesn't work. (I mention this because they don't show up in my sent folder)

Nov 3, 2009#49

ElJuski

This all seems pretty sensationalist.

:eek:

hwell:

Gusto said:
This all seems pretty sensationalist...

hwell:

Oh woops

Nov 3, 2009#50

Kitty Sinatra

Twitch said:
PM's work on this forum right? I'll feel pretty stupid if I sent my thoughts and it doesn't work. (I mention this because they don't show up in my sent folder)

You have to select the option to save the sent message. I keep forgetting.

Also:

Dave said:
Warning
1 Hour Ban
1 Day Ban
1 Month Ban
Permaban

So I'm thinking what we need is a rules lawyer . . .

Okay, I got two things. The first one's a joke.

1) So I'm now just 4 infractions away from a permaban? Gruebeard. Hollow. Alt. . . . Damn those are the only one's I can remember. But that's 3 of my names I've named. Gets me up to 1 Month. I may just have to make another alt and name him too (and he'll be named "Too"). Well, I'm down with any excuse to make an alt.

2) What you need is a judge. Not that Sherriff thing y'all tried (hey, there we go, enough names for a permaban! But I didn't get to make an alt ). what I mean is, when the moderators have an issue with someone, they send the info to this judge who decides what to do, not based on rules or anything like that. Rather, he makes the decision based on what he thinks this place should be. That judge would have to be you.

Nov 3, 2009#51

SpecialKO

I lurk far more than I post, and I only hit the threads that I'm interested in, so I really don't see much of a problem.

Yeah, there have definitely been a few instances, but I've never seen an active forum with a sense of community beyond heaping praise on an individual webcomic that didn't have a few.

I do think we need to have more temp-bans, but more for folks who bring locked shit to new threads. I thought Zen's approach worked quite well for the most part, and when it didn't, well, that's what temp-banning is for.

We do need a crystal clear batch of rules that more or less everyone can agree with. I don't mean that we should spend a month haggling over line items, but more like a constitution - vague, but with enough principles that everyone can get behind it, and the mods can interpret at will.

I do think the Flame Wars section is kind of feeding the problem, though I'm not really sure.

Nov 3, 2009#52

Terrik

ElJuski and Gusto are the same person.

Anyhoo, my own two cents is yes, there is some negativity (politics subforum--lol) and there have been posts that make me cringe, but overall?--I don't think its *that* bad...at least not nearly as bad as places I've been before.

Nov 3, 2009#53

SpecialKO

Terrik said:
Anyhoo, my own two cents is yes, there is some negativity (politics subforum--lol)

We might want to stick up a warning for the politics subforum.

Honestly, though, for a politics subforum, it's pretty darn tame compared to some that I've seen.

While tempers may run high, I don't think it really gets personal. There were a couple times when I think it did get out of hand, but the impression I got was that the mods dealt with it.

Nov 3, 2009#54

Mutiny

Hi there.

I rarely post, but I do read the forums on a regular basis. I'm also leading the Halforum House of Pain fantasy football league as I write this, so my opinion counts quadruple. Don't deny that, as you know it's true.

Simply put, I'm a fan of as little moderation as possible. However, this also requires that people aren't asshats to each other. Yeah, I know. That's a really tall order, right?

Therefore, I propose the following:

Stop being assholes to each other and get along. I mean, really. I don't care who started it, roll with the previous punches and just be civil.

Yes, I know. Another tall order.

Nov 3, 2009#55

Adammon

I guess I don't see the point of the Flame Wars section. It's being used as an excuse to be a jackass, and from what I can tell, no one needs an excuse around here to do that.

As for the general level of discourse on the forum, most people know who the main offenders are and it's relatively simple to avoid them. That said, I don't believe that the entire forum should tiptoe around those who can't keep their nose clean for whatever reason.

It's a privilege to post here. However, it also is quickly becoming evident that there's no 'common bond' between posters. Whether it's discussing a webcomic or a common hobby, there has to be something that ties the participants to the community, otherwise there's no sense of responsibility TO the community. And without that responsibility, it essentially comes down to "Who can throw the most shit in an attempt to bring everyone else down?" That unfocussed energy, exacerbated by an 'anonymous' online community becomes a double edged sword.

I'd suggest that outside of just recruiting new members that a concerted effort to have a daily thread for something that we'd all read about, or at least something to comment on would probably alleviate this whole 'idle hands are the devils plaything' phenomenon going on.

Nov 3, 2009#56

SpecialKO

Adammon said:
However, it also is quickly becoming evident that there's no 'common bond' between posters. Whether it's discussing a webcomic or a common hobby, there has to be something that ties the participants to the community, otherwise there's no sense of responsibility TO the community. And without that responsibility, it essentially comes down to "Who can throw the most shit in an attempt to bring everyone else down?" That unfocussed energy, exacerbated by an 'anonymous' online community becomes a double edged sword.

I agree with this completely.

Nov 3, 2009#57

ElJuski

I really think people are taking the internet WAY too seriously and getting WAY too invested. The fact that we have to have an internet sit down just means that people need more hobbies in real life.

Now if you'll excuse me, my Stroganoff is boiling over.

anic:

Nov 3, 2009#58

Bubble181

Frankly...I hate the "new posts" button. I think it only increases the problem. Seriously...If you want everyone to go that way, why even have subfora anymore? It makes no difference to most if I put a thing in General, Movies, or Flames...People react the same everywhere, becauseo f a combination of lack of moderation, and a lack of distinguishing between the differnet fora.

As far as I'm concerned:
a) Scrap the New Posts button. Yes, it's handy, but it makes all of HFs one big pile
b) Set seperate rules - and, probably best, separate moderators - for the different subfora. General shuld be relatively civil. Movies and Comics should expect strong differing opinions, but nothing too hard. Politics is, as mentioned, pretty tame for its topic; it's probably fine as it is - no slurs, and most other stuff goes. NSFW and Flaming can be where the trolls can go if they really can't keep it in their pants.

A big problem right now is that the community is quite limited (30-odd regular posters), of which quite a few are either straight-out out for trolling, or do enjoy putting on the troll guise from time to time. I certainly don't mind, but some people here are very active, and yet, seem to do rather little except troll. Others are quite active and fun and interesting members, yet sometimes seem to feel the need to go berserk. I, personally, approve of Grue/Hollows take back when he still used both: have one "serious" account, and one for trolling/joking/whatever. Some might find it a bit schizo,but it made it more clear what tone of voice to read things in.

Anyway, I do think somethnig needs to be done. I'm theoretically against heavy moderation (certainly of the "Sheriff" levels), but it seems some people here can't take a hint, and they should be dealt with. The problem is that heavy moderation to drive away any and all trolling would pretty much kill off the forum as it stands now - it's easily half of the activity.

Oh, and I do agree with what someoen said. It works both ways, of course, and I've participated in it, but if I were a comic artist, and I saw what we did with Tom's forum, I wouldn't want to be here either.

Nov 3, 2009#59

wana10

i used to post more and have really stopped because of the tendency for threads to devolve into shit throwing. i now only try to involve myself in the joke fun threads because anything with even the slightest bit of possible/kinda sorta/maybe controversy can and will become a pissing match. maybe things have gotten better since i started backing off, maybe not, i dunno and the sad part for me is i don't really care to find out.

Nov 3, 2009#60

Cajungal

I've noticed I've been saying, "Things have been kind of hostile, but it'll blow over like it always does..." more often lately. I feel like we've been grating on one another a bit. Not sure what to do about it. Frankly there are some people that I feel I should have given a warning to in the past, at least. I don't want to go banning people left and right, but there's a difference between speaking freely and taking advantage of the relaxed atmosphere.

Nov 3, 2009#61

Rubicon

I tend to agree with the vibe lately... granted I'm at work most of each day and gaming at night in my free time but when I do browse the forums.. Its like you have to walk on egg shells cause any thread, even something perfectly innocent like Ross's computer thread may degenerate into god knows what kind of bitchfest between people (note, this thread is fine, theres no drama there just used it as an example of what might happen)..

I think it went downhill when Chaz left (prior to coming back), that seemed to really bring out the inner /b/tard in most people in terms of just pointless flames.

Nov 3, 2009#62

Krisken

Cajungal said:
I've noticed I've been saying, "Things have been kind of hostile, but it'll blow over like it always does..." more often lately. I feel like we've been grating on one another a bit. Not sure what to do about it. Frankly there are some people that I feel I should have given a warning to in the past, at least. I don't want to go banning people left and right, but there's a difference between speaking freely and taking advantage of the relaxed atmosphere.

If it's ever me, send me a message telling me that my normally fun snack is getting stale. I'll get the idea. :eek:

Nov 3, 2009#63

Cajungal

I tend not to remember who says what, because I only go through those aggressive forums to moderate, mostly. So I remember a lot of nasty things said without remembering who says them... But like Dave I'm not here to name names anyway.

I feel partially responsible for not taking more action in some cases--not necessarily anything rash, just saying what I think about what's going on.

Nov 3, 2009#64

drawn_inward

I'm just going to leave this here.

drawn_inward said:
B/c it's in the flame section, that makes it okay?
How is this community supposed to survive with this kind of vitriol going on?

I have been saying this for quite some time. I am sincerely tired of this stuff.
We've lost quite a few people, and it sucks. I didn't like some of the people that left, and still think the way they left sucked. People are still ganging up on members of this community and it's really lame.

Nov 3, 2009#65

Cajungal

^Agreed. It was a nice idea in theory, but people are going out of their way to say things that, I'm convinced, they wouldn't have the guts to say if they knew these people personally. It's just rude and pointless... not that everything here has a point, but I think that area has done more harm than good.

Nov 3, 2009#66

Rob King

Every so often, it's nice to remember examples of threads that didn't go down the typical flamefest path. Every post that shows up in the "News In Catholicism" thread that DOESN'T send it careening down into a pit of shit makes me happy.

I'm proud of us.

Maybe we should have a 'Bump this thread every time you discover that a controversial thread hasn't become a pissing match/flamefest.'

Nov 3, 2009#67

Krisken

heh, I remember the last time I suggested having a civil discussion I was told to go back to Whole Foods.

Nov 3, 2009#68

LordRavage

Krisken said:
heh, I remember the last time I suggested having a civil discussion I was told to go back to Whole Foods, Hippy!

FTFY.

Nov 3, 2009#69

rabbitgod

Adammon said:
It's a privilege to post here. However, it also is quickly becoming evident that there's no 'common bond' between posters. Whether it's discussing a webcomic or a common hobby, there has to be something that ties the participants to the community, otherwise there's no sense of responsibility TO the community. And without that responsibility, it essentially comes down to "Who can throw the most shit in an attempt to bring everyone else down?" That unfocussed energy, exacerbated by an 'anonymous' online community becomes a double edged sword.

I agree with this. I belong to only one 'general interest' forum. Halforum. Every other forum I belong to has a common interest. Beer making, dog breed, scooter, etc. In fact I belong to a forum with about 8 regulars. As a result I'm always hesitant to join a forum like this.

But in the end, I'm still pretty new and don't post a lot, so in the end maybe I don't have an opinion.

I have noticed an increase in negativity since I've been there. I recommend a giant hug. Cajun can get us started, she's into hugs.

Nov 3, 2009#70

Krisken

LordRavage;289103][quote=Krisken said:
heh, I remember the last time I suggested having a civil discussion I was told to go back to Whole Foods, Hippy!

FTFY.

[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah! I forgot about that part!

Nov 3, 2009#71

drawn_inward

I'd rather not see a permaban come around. I guess if one person is alienating the majority of the community then they need to go. The needs of the many, outweigh...

Nov 3, 2009#72

Troll

A few weeks ago someone mentioned that I wasn't posting as much. I explained that I thought this forum was going downhill because of a vocal minority of assholes. Anyone remember what happened? I was immediately accused of actually trolling, and basically some people showed up to prove me right.

I bring this up not only to say "nyah nyah I told you so!", but also to illustrate the problem this forum has. There is a distinct vocal minority of assholes. They like to pick on people, carry flamewars from thread to thread, and they attack anyone who asks them to tone down the vitriol. They jump all over people who disagree with them, and it drives new posters and lurkers away. It borders on bullying behavior, especially the call out threads. There is a way to be civil and disagree at the same time, but some people around here don't even try.

I don't know what will fix the problem. My only suggestion is a stronger presence of moderation. There is a lax culture on this board that allows people, especially people who have been around longer, to be assholes. Somehow that has to be discouraged, or the situation is never going to change. Maybe there are better ideas than moderation. I don't know. All I know is that the increased negativity is noticable, and is an actual problem. It's not the forum just being colorful.

Nov 3, 2009#73

Cajungal

:hug:

Happy to, rabbit. I think that the vast majority of people here are great posters. Few have a habit of making trouble. Sometimes it's just a bad week, and sometimes it's just a sensitive topic.

It's just important in a community like this to remember that we don't have much of an idea of people's backgrounds here. I'm not saying we should tiptoe around every little thing, but there's something to be said for thinking before you speak and considering the feelings of the person you're addressing.

I know that probably sounds kind of wussy or whatever... and I don't believe in folding over every time you think you might upset someone. It's easy to just come out with exactly what you're thinking at the time. It takes patience and thought to speak diplomatically. I KNOW that everyone here has that capacity.

Plus we're all fun, interesting people with something GREAT to bring to the table. We've been through a lot together, and I know that this too shall pass if we put forth the effort.

Nov 3, 2009#74

drawn_inward

A Troll said:
I don't know what will fix the problem. My only suggestion is a stronger presence of moderation. There is a lax culture on this board that allows people, especially people who have been around longer, to be assholes. .

I agree with this, and would like to add the caveat of some folks seem to think that it's their shtick to be an asshole. So, to keep up their shtick, they flame-on any chance they get. I don't want those folks to leave, I just want them to calm down.

Nov 3, 2009#75

Troll

drawn_inward;289132][quote=A Troll said:
I don't know what will fix the problem. My only suggestion is a stronger presence of moderation. There is a lax culture on this board that allows people, especially people who have been around longer, to be assholes. .

Nov 3, 2009#76

Cajungal

I think just talking about it might help to kind of ease the tension. It's been brought up before in passing, but I'm glad Dave started this thread. Anyone wanna join me in some deep breathing?

Nov 3, 2009#77

Adammon

Forum needs more chicks. Tis a veritable sausage party.

Nov 3, 2009#78

Krisken

Cajungal said:
I think just talking about it might help to kind of ease the tension. It's been brought up before in passing, but I'm glad Dave started this thread. Anyone wanna join me in some deep breathing?

I'm in with the deep breathing.

That's not a euphemism, right?

Nov 3, 2009#79

rabbitgod

Cajungal said:
:hug:

Happy to, rabbit.

Whooooo!

Secretly I just wanted an internet hug...

Mission accomplished.

Nov 3, 2009#80

Cajungal

All you need do is ask. ^_^

And no, Krisken.

I just put the silly face there because I thought it was a silly thing to say. Although sometimes it helps.

Nov 3, 2009#81

makare

Adammon said:
Forum needs more chicks. Tis a veritable sausage party.

I was just saying that earlier! I think more women would be good.

Nov 3, 2009#82

Twitch

But if we let women vote they'll just start prohibition... wait.

Nov 3, 2009#83

Krisken

Cajungal said:
All you need do is ask. ^_^

And no, Krisken. I just put the silly face there because I thought it was a silly thing to say. Although sometimes it helps.

I knew that. Figured I could get ya to blush.

:grouphug: I'm up for some of this too.

Nov 3, 2009#84

North_Ranger

I've been trying to recruit a Ukrainian friend of mine, but the fucker's yet to show up

Nov 3, 2009#85

Cajungal

HUGS FOR ALL!

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

And Krisken, I might have flushed just a tad.

Nov 3, 2009#86

Krisken

Cajungal said:
HUGS FOR ALL!

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

And Krisken, I might have flushed just a tad.

If it makes you feel better, I blushed a little saying it.

Nov 3, 2009#87

ThatNickGuy

I've had issues with a few forumites in the past. Recently, one that I had issues with, I dealt with on my own. It felt like I was being personally attacked and almost targetted.

Their response? Essentially, they blew it off, told me to either grow a pair or lighten up; their joke was still funny and to hell with my feelings. THAT is the kind of attitude that some posters (again, not naming names or lumping everyone together) seem to have: they just don't give a shit about the other person's feelings. What might be hilarious to them (and often, ONLY them) is not funny and even insulting or upsetting to others.

I try not to attack or seriously insult, myself. My view is two things: Thumper's adage about saying nice things. Secondly, I imagine what it would be like if I had a bad day, come on the forums and then read something like that, aimed at me. If you imagine that, it's much tougher to be an asshole.

Still, some moderation and warnings I think would go a long way.

Nov 3, 2009#88

Espy

Krisken said:
heh, I remember the last time I suggested having a civil discussion I was told to go back to Whole Foods

Dude. I wanted you to pick me up some organic brussels sprouts for the nice romantic dinner I was making for us.

And you didn't.

And now the dinner is ruined.

Nov 3, 2009#89

Cheesy1

Espy;289176][quote=Krisken said:
heh, I remember the last time I suggested having a civil discussion I was told to go back to Whole Foods

Dude. I wanted you to pick me up some organic brussels sprouts for the nice romantic dinner I was making for us.

And you didn't.

And now the dinner is ruined.

[/QUOTE]

But, he brought the chips though!:

Nov 3, 2009#90

Cajungal

Kriskens: They ruin dinner.

Nov 3, 2009#91

Shegokigo

Hm, I read through this thread twice, just to make sure I wasn't missing something.

I don't see this "negative vibe" flowing through the forums. That's because I am probably on here more than almost anyone.

Perhaps it's because I don't take 98% of what comes out of another poster seriously (when it comes to negative situations/arguments) as alot of people can get heated and say things they don't exactly mean from time to time.

Now, if something persists for over a few days, then yeah, I can see the problem. That's a rare ass thing around here these days if you ask me though. :noidea:

Nov 3, 2009#92

makare

Cheesy1 said:
But, he brought the chips though!:

I bet that can is full of lupus.

Nov 3, 2009#93

Shegokigo

It's never Lupus....

Nov 3, 2009#94

Krisken

makare1;289190][quote=Cheesy1 said:
But, he brought the chips though!:

I bet that can is full of lupus.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying the can lies?

Nov 3, 2009#95

ncts_dodge_man

Being a 99% lurker (I only log in when I feel like posting - which is very rare - heck, I dropped in the IRC chat one day and people were like "who are you" - example: my "last visit" logged in was 10-18-09) - I do read the forum almost every day (unless I don't have internet access) - I would say that it has gotten rather negative - some of the posts I just skip over anymore...

The "flame wars" section never really made any sense to me - why post something that is a deliberate attack against another person - especially in a form such as this where sarcasm/humor is very hard to verify/know. I used to admin forums several years ago (back when I had time (ie single and didn't have a 1 year old)) and it was hard keeping up with things, especially if people started attacking each other - which generally just doesn't make everyone want to stick around.

I've been a member of this group since the mid-2000's (back when I followed PvP by Kurtz - haven't been as impressed for the past year or two), but always a lurker. There isn't much that I feel the desire to post about, but I am always interested in what other people write about - not that I always agree with them.

Now, would I post more if this place had more moderation/less negativity? No. Would I stop lurking? No, but I would feel a bit more comfortable if I could check in on the forums during my breaks at work and there was less negativity.

Nov 3, 2009#96

Soliloquy

Cajungal said:
I think just talking about it might help to kind of ease the tension. It's been brought up before in passing, but I'm glad Dave started this thread. Anyone wanna join me in some deep breathing?

I dunno... back in the halfpixel days, I started a thread bringing up the fact that people were starting to be jerks in ways that were scaring away newcomers.

What ensued was a back-and-forth discussion (much like this one) in which everyone had their own opinions on the matter, nobody wanted to alter their opinions on the matter, and nothing changed--people kept on going the way they always had been, scaring away newbies and the like.

I don't think discussions actually solve anything in an anonymous environment such as this. For things to change, someone in authority needs to act.

Nov 3, 2009#97

Espy

Cheesy1;289180][quote=Espy;289176][quote=Krisken said:
heh, I remember the last time I suggested having a civil discussion I was told to go back to Whole Foods

Dude. I wanted you to pick me up some organic brussels sprouts for the nice romantic dinner I was making for us.

And you didn't.

And now the dinner is ruined.

[/QUOTE]

But, he brought the chips though!:

[/QUOTE]
Oh wow. Dude. Brilliant!

Nov 3, 2009#98

HowDroll

I'm honestly pretty entertained by a lot of the flame wars that go on here. I'm also a /b/tard, so take my opinion for what it's worth. I honestly think more moderation would be a bad thing, though. Part of the reason I love this forum is because I can let my hair down (even with the risk of Shego grabbing it and forcing me to do unspeakable things), cuss like a fucking sailor and occasionally give people a hard time, joking or not. Even though more moderation would definitely change the forum's vibe, I'm not sure it would really be for the better.

Nov 3, 2009#99

Krisken

Espy said:
Oh wow. Dude. Brilliant!

You should visit the wiki

Nov 3, 2009#100

figmentPez

ThatNickGuy said:
Their response? Essentially, they blew it off, told me to either grow a pair or lighten up; their joke was still funny and to hell with my feelings. THAT is the kind of attitude that some posters (again, not naming names or lumping everyone together) seem to have: they just don't give a shit about the other person's feelings. What might be hilarious to them (and often, ONLY them) is not funny and even insulting or upsetting to others.

This, right here. (How ironic that it's often the same posters who mock Kurts for saying FYGIF.) Sometimes it doesn't matter if you mean it as a joke, it's still rude and uncalled for. There has been a lot of this lately, and I've been noticing it and posting less because of it.

Nov 3, 2009#101

Cheesy1

Espy said:
Oh wow. Dude. Brilliant!

Yeah, I made that one a while back. I just hardly ever get the chance to use it.

Nov 3, 2009#102

Krisken

Cheesy1;289273][quote=Espy said:
Oh wow. Dude. Brilliant!

Yeah, I made that one a while back. I just hardly ever get the chance to use it.

[/QUOTE]
It lives on

It cracks me up every time. I even placed it in the wiki meme entry where CajunGal says "Kriskens:_____"

Nov 3, 2009#103

Cheesy1

Krisken;289277][quote=Cheesy1;289273][quote=Espy said:
Oh wow. Dude. Brilliant!

Yeah, I made that one a while back. I just hardly ever get the chance to use it.

[/QUOTE]
It lives on

It cracks me up every time. I even placed it in the wiki meme entry where CajunGal says "Kriskens:_____"[/QUOTE]

Yay, my work has been immortalized! :rockon:

Nov 3, 2009#104

Chippy

Dave said no names.

Nov 3, 2009#105

strawman

A Troll said:
There is a distinct vocal minority of assholes. They like to pick on people, carry flamewars from thread to thread, and they attack anyone who asks them to tone down the vitriol. They jump all over people who disagree with them. It borders on bullying behavior, especially the call out threads. There is a way to be civil and disagree at the same time, but some people around here don't even try.

This.

An example I can think of is A made a -minority group- joke that offended B. When B told A that it offended them, A's only response was essentially, "Sucks that you can't see the humor, but you need to change, not me." It would have been much better had A instead said, "Sorry I offended you - it wasn't intended." It resulted in quite a long thread with people picking sides regarding whether the joke was offensive or not and so forth.

It's basic respect that appears to be missing.

We teach our children (at least, I hope most people do) that if they hurt someone accidentally, they should still apologize, though it was not their intention to hurt anyone.

But who wants to be a moderator and say, "Hey, A, you need to go apologize to B, or I'm going to put you in time-out for a day." Ugh.

Moderation may be able to nudge people in the right direction, but the community itself needs to decide what is acceptable and respectful, and what is not, and enforce it verbally in threads where you see someone isn't being respectful.

You can still be sarcastic, make fun of people and the foibles, and such while being respectful, and recognizing that you need to apologize and tone it down once someone indicates you've gone over their personal line.

-Adam

Nov 3, 2009#106

BoringMetaphor

I just want to point out that in this thread, out of the posters here, all the 'lurkers'; myself, Mutiny, Wana10 (to some degree) and ncts_dodge_man, all essentially say its negativity. Others do as well, but if you want to know why the forum is failing, its because lurkers dont post, and everyone lurks in the beginning to get the feel for a place. (except for directly referred people, such as roomates, etc.) So new people are probably much less likely to join the community. Asking the people who post why stuff is going wrong is only answering why the forum might die - if you want to know why it wont grow, ask the people who can post but dont.

Its not that the place needs more moderation, its that any number of yahoos on this forum will not accept the idea that you can make a post which says "Well, you have your points and I have mine, lets end this."

This applies to politics, to personal discussions, to just about everything sometimes. I will say right now I look at some people's posts on this forum and can think of all sorts of snappy/snarky/HUMOUROUS responses which makes me feel better about myself for being clever, but does nothing for the discussion/whatever issue they are going through. I dont post them cause its just impolite and mean. And it makes people feel bad. Time and time again I find myself asking here, why on earth would you post something which purposefully makes someone feel bad and has no other value?

People here dont need moderation, they need filters. Which is why its so problematic. You cant force people to filter themselves, so its not something which can magically appear with the "right mod" or some new rule. Following this community for years now has let me to believe there is essentially a cadre of posters here who are so obsessed with proving their own wit, or importance, or superiority over others, that they post not for value but for instant gratification and the knowledge that they have proven themselves better than someone - or anyone it seems - once again.

Ultimately, this does not build a community. This create the illusion of community, the illusion that there is camaredie here because people post a lot, and interact. Posts do not mean you are a valued member of the community. If you want to see what to build off of in HF, look to the real community, the real friendships, the people who look at other forumers and say this is someone who I will talk to for the rest of my life, because they are my friend. People who say, I will listen to you because you are posting, not because I agree with you.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if more people here were more interested in hearing what others had to say than what they themselves are saying, we could make some steps towards a sustainable community rather than a degrading one.

Nov 3, 2009#107

ThatNickGuy

No names in this thread, Dave said. Take it up in PMs, please.

Nov 3, 2009#108

Chippy

PMs.

---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------

Dave said no names.

I called myself out. Is that so bad?

Nov 3, 2009#109

Gusto

Nov 3, 2009#110

Cajungal

Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, please respect his request. That's not what he made this thread for.

Nov 3, 2009#111

Chippy

But the irony was so delicious!

Nov 3, 2009#112

makare

damn it, don't mess with the irony. This entire forum is an irony explosion waiting to happen.. Imagine a giant twinkie....made of irony.

Nov 3, 2009#113

Gusto

Th irony is so thick I can barely move.

Nov 3, 2009#114

Krisken

makare1 said:
damn it, don't mess with the irony. This entire forum is an irony explosion waiting to happen.. Imagine a giant twinkie....made of irony.

If it was compared to the normal level of irony in a forum, it would be a twinkie weighing 600 tons?

Nov 3, 2009#115

Sparhawk

Yes, there is more of an atmosphere of negativity, yes, it's been building, yes, it's keeping me from posting (or even checking) in the forum as much. There is a distinct group of people, who mostly haven't posted in this thread, that seem to be "attacking" people more often than is really warranted.

Example of this, Chaz and his I'm leaving thread, and then coming back. There was a DEDICATED group of people that attacked and then didn't even back off when it was announced that he was in the middle of a REAL personal crisis. THAT is what people remember about a forum visit, Not the friendly jokes and pokes that consist of most of the posts around here.

The New Posts button has blurred the line too much between the sub-forums, and in some ways the sub-forums have splintered the posters in the boards too much. Used to be that you would never know what you would find, and become interested in, in General (comics, web-comics, interesting news of the day, funny pictures, goofy threads that were just for fun) and now General has lost it's fun factor. Flame wars as a sub-forum should probably go, since I personally have seen too many threads take off in a flame direction because somebody "oops, thought this was Flame Wars" posted.

Yeah, a long post for me, but this has been bothering me somewhat. I really enjoy this forum, love what Dave has done for us, but it's almost too much of a division between the posting areas, consolidate, less would be more in this case. We currently have 11 different sub-forums, maybe trim that by 5 (General and Politics under "Topic Disc" and that's all) or 6 (Flame goodbye?) and let it ride.

Okay, gonna go sit back in my corner,
sparhawk (jeff)

Nov 3, 2009#116

wana10

makare1 said:
damn it, don't mess with the irony. This entire forum is an irony explosion waiting to happen.. Imagine a giant twinkie....made of irony.

Nov 3, 2009#117

ElJuski

It kind of sounds like that if this place isn't fucking smiles and rainbows then the whole thing is a tattered mess. It's the internet, people, it's a forum. Let's take a deep breath, sigh a collective "who gives a shit" sigh, and get on to discussing inane points of pop culture interest. Why people get so butthurt over crap some random assmunch on the other end of hte internet is saying, I don't know.

What I do know is all this lovey-dovey compensation stuff is WAY unnecessary. This place should be a time sink and a pastime. SRS BUSINESS, indeed.

Nov 3, 2009#118

Chippy

ElJuski said:
It kind of sounds like that if this place isn't fucking smiles and rainbows then the whole thing is a tattered mess. It's the internet, people, it's a forum. Let's take a deep breath, sigh a collective "who gives a shit" sigh, and get on to discussing inane points of pop culture interest. Why people get so butthurt over crap some random assmunch on the other end of hte internet is saying, I don't know.

What I do know is all this lovey-dovey compensation stuff is WAY unnecessary. This place should be a time sink and a pastime. SRS BUSINESS, indeed.

Juski, I know I don't say this nearly enough...

But I love you.

Nov 3, 2009#119

Krisken

ElJuski said:
It kind of sounds like that if this place isn't fucking smiles and rainbows then the whole thing is a tattered mess. It's the internet, people, it's a forum. Let's take a deep breath, sigh a collective "who gives a shit" sigh, and get on to discussing inane points of pop culture interest. Why people get so butthurt over crap some random assmunch on the other end of hte internet is saying, I don't know.

What I do know is all this lovey-dovey compensation stuff is WAY unnecessary. This place should be a time sink and a pastime. SRS BUSINESS, indeed.

Yeah, except that doesn't bring in new people, right? I mean, isn't that pretty much what we want here? Maybe I'm not understanding what the purpose of the forums are.

Nov 3, 2009#120

Bowielee

Quite frankly, I've deleted my bookmark for this site 4 times in the last 2 weeks.

FYI if we drive away all the posters, there won't be a board anymore. If you're cool with that, by all means, continue to ignore the problem.

Nov 3, 2009#121

Cajungal

I think it's worth talking about if we wanna keep this place running. There's a happy medium somewhere between singing koombayah and telling people to stop having feelings.

Nov 3, 2009#122

Soliloquy

Krisken;289386][quote=ElJuski said:
It kind of sounds like that if this place isn't fucking smiles and rainbows then the whole thing is a tattered mess. It's the internet, people, it's a forum. Let's take a deep breath, sigh a collective "who gives a shit" sigh, and get on to discussing inane points of pop culture interest. Why people get so butthurt over crap some random assmunch on the other end of hte internet is saying, I don't know.

What I do know is all this lovey-dovey compensation stuff is WAY unnecessary. This place should be a time sink and a pastime. SRS BUSINESS, indeed.

Yeah, except that doesn't bring in new people, right? I mean, isn't that pretty much what we want here? Maybe I'm not understanding what the purpose of the forums are.[/QUOTE]

I though the purpose was to drain Dave's bank account as he makes a futile attempt to turn Halforums into a viable and popular website.

Nov 3, 2009#123

Troll

ElJuski said:
It kind of sounds like that if this place isn't fucking smiles and rainbows then the whole thing is a tattered mess. It's the internet, people, it's a forum. Let's take a deep breath, sigh a collective "who gives a shit" sigh, and get on to discussing inane points of pop culture interest. Why people get so butthurt over crap some random assmunch on the other end of hte internet is saying, I don't know.

What I do know is all this lovey-dovey compensation stuff is WAY unnecessary. This place should be a time sink and a pastime. SRS BUSINESS, indeed.

You're completely missing the point. This isn't about people always smiling and being oh-so-sweet to each other. It's about some people not being huge assholes to everyone else because they think its funny. It's possible to disagree, goof around, be sarcastic, and show emotion all without being an giant douche. Too many people skip right to the douche phase, and it's driving people away.

Nov 4, 2009#124

KCWM

I'd like to think that, at one point in time, I was a semi regular. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit. I used to check and read quite a bit...looked forward to what people had to say about games, movies, TV shows, and then read the wacky "Only on HF" stuff.

Now...it's hardly worth it because the overall impression that I get is that everything just devolves into a big heap of bullshit, as the "lurkers" have also pointed out. It makes it feel more like a time waste rather than a time sink. And, it seems like just about every thread I DO click on, I can't read from work because of language, pictures, or a combination of the two.

If I had to describe the general population, the first word that comes to mind is inconsiderate. Does everyone fit that? No. But, if that's my general description having been on this forum in one form or fashion through however many incarnations, then I can see why people that are new either don't post or aren't staying. As others have said, people sure don't seem to care when they lay into someone "for the lulz".

I couldn't care less whether or I visit this place anymore...I checked here out of boredom while my computer formatted a CD. That makes me sad because this used to be the first bookmark I clicked on. Now, it's the last one I want to click on.

Older members can say that there's no problem or that the problem is overexaggerated and that we just need to learn to deal, but that's utter bullshit. Denying there's a problem is simply letting it get worse. This place needs more moderation...it needs real consequences for actions rather than what comes across as a minor slap on the wrist. The primary rule needs to be "Dont be a dick". If people can't figure that out how that works, then they are adding to the problem...and it should then become an issue of addition by subtraction. It might suck to lose to a long term member, but if we can get 10 new members because one asshole is gone, then it's a win.

Nov 4, 2009#125

Cajungal

Maybe this is a good idea... maybe not... but all the complaints about the flame war section got me thinking.

What if a thread couldn't be started as a flame war thread, but if it got heated enough, it could be placed there with a page limit of __X__ set... enough to let people bellow and stomp a while until it's time to close up shop and make room for newer, hotter, angrier topics.

It might encourage people to stay civil if people want to talk about something without having a limit. It's an incomplete idea, just brainstorming here...

I don't think anything we did would turn things around completely, and that doesn't even need to happen. A good fight clears the air, and people usually fling around some interesting ideas... along with very colorful, creative jabs... but after a while it's just pages and pages of more of the same and people commenting on stuff that was said on one of the previous 30 pages they did not read.

Nov 4, 2009#126

ElJuski

Let's be honest. What's bringing new posters here anyway? If the goal is to have MORE people, then there should be more reasons for MORE people.

And if those MORE people are able to change the dynamic of what's going on, than that's fantastic. I think what we're describing here is an isolation and lock down of nega-feelings. People on this forum all too readily take shit WAY too seriously.

However, locking down the Flame Wars section would quite possibly be a beneficial idea. It's not really necessary, as fun as certain places may be. And yes, it's just a shitty excuse for people to keep on posting inane bullshit.

Other than that though? It kind of sounds like people are getting a little too hurt and personal over the internet.

Nov 4, 2009#127

Cajungal

^I have to say that, for all my talk about people being more considerate, it is important for the other side to give a little as well. Often a harmless little comment is taken as something much worse or much more offensive. It's a shame they took it that way, but things like that are going to happen when all we have here is text.

Nov 4, 2009#128

doomdragon6

Hm, I'd say removing the subforums, if nothing else for like a week-long test run, might be worthwhile. It'll get everyone into one forum talking again, like it used to be.

It used to be that threads moved off the main page within a day. Now, they linger for a week or longer. I firmly believe that getting more people in one place talking about a multitude of different things will improve the mood around here.

As it is, everyone's stuck with the same people and ideas they've been around.

Nov 4, 2009#129

Krisken

Boy, I hope you guys are right. There's a lot I like about this place.

out:

Nov 4, 2009#130

Soliloquy

ElJuski said:
Let's be honest. What's bringing new posters here anyway? If the goal is to have MORE people, then there should be more reasons for MORE people.

And if those MORE people are able to change the dynamic of what's going on, than that's fantastic. I think what we're describing here is an isolation and lock down of nega-feelings. People on this forum all too readily take shit WAY too seriously.

However, locking down the Flame Wars section would quite possibly be a beneficial idea. It's not really necessary, as fun as certain places may be. And yes, it's just a shitty excuse for people to keep on posting inane bullshit.

Other than that though? It kind of sounds like people are getting a little too hurt and personal over the internet.

That's all well and good, but think of the way Dave's trying to get traffic: enticing webcomics to host their forums here. A pretty freakin' great idea, I'd say. But let's say that the people Dave's marketing to decide to check out this site that they'll be sending all their fans to, and what they see is ever other conversation turning into a pissing contest. How exactly will that make Dave's product look?

So yes, we're taking this seriously. Dave's made a sacrificial business venture, putting himself into financial difficulty to give us this place to hang out on the web. How dare we not take this seriously?

Edit: I know that you're talking about too many people taking insults and jabs online seriously, but that audience is going to be everywhere, coming in from every webcomic Dave tries to get in here. If we want Dave to be succesful, instead of just wasting his money for the 30-odd people who hang out here, we have to do something other than just hand-wave the issue.

Nov 4, 2009#131

drawn_inward

BoringMetaphor said:
said a bunch of stuff

A ton of good points here. I think the negativity is a symptom of a greater problem. Good post. You should post more often.

I am guilty of the snarky/doesn't add anything to the thread posts. In fact, I think the majority of my posts are just to get a laugh.

Nov 4, 2009#132

GeneralOrder24

I don't see the negativity as much, but I view every post as I make them: mostly lighthearted internet nonsense.

Of course, you can't just tell people that it's just the internet and mostly everybody here means well. It's kind of a catch 22, I guess.

I'm in favor of moderation, though I can totally see myself putting my foot in my mouth and winding up on the wrong end of it. The other issue I see is that people who don't feel that their being of an ass is as bad as others will need to chill out and accept it, which is a bitter pill to swallow.

Nov 4, 2009#133

Math242

not everything is rose in halforumland right now. it looks like some people hate each other and get a hard on just pissing the others off.

Then there's the bandwagon and the clique effects which are very real around here. I don't like that.

To be honest tho, i've read this forum (or previous incarnations) for a long time and it's been way worse before.

My POV is very similar to Juski though. People are way too serious around here and If they want to be that serious about things, then they need a thicker skin.

Nov 4, 2009#134

SeraRelm

I vote they get half a warning, broken off in the middle of typing as we send 'Juski to their house (via the 'Juski travel fund we could start up) to bash tme in the grill.

Problem solved right?

Or we could hope people could show some decency to each other as, even though it's the "faceless internet" it's a perosn on the other end.

(I think the first idea is more realistic)

Nov 4, 2009#135

Chazwozel

Guys the solution is simple. I will wear the burden of forum asshole. I will go to Mount Doom and destroy the negativity. Although I do not know the way.

---------- Post added at 06:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------

Sparhawk said:
Example of this, Chaz and his I'm leaving thread, and then coming back. There was a DEDICATED group of people that attacked and then didn't even back off when it was announced that he was in the middle of a REAL personal crisis. THAT is what people remember about a forum visit, Not the friendly jokes and pokes that consist of most of the posts around here.

That was the IRC crew. They're douchebags anyway.

Nov 4, 2009#136

Silver Jelly

Chazwozel said:
Guys the solution is simple. I will wear the burden of forum asshole. I will go to Mount Doom and destroy the negativity. Although I do not know the way.

Whenever I see such a picture of Frodo, I can't avoid imagining him putting the ring inside his mouth with a fast movement and then gulping it down with a glass of water.

Nov 4, 2009#137

Bubble181

I have to say - while there *is* a lot of sniping and stuff going on, I think some people take it waaayyy more serious than it is intended. I mean, honestly, I don't think I've read more than two or three posts here that were made in the idea of seriously hurting someone. Some peopel do enjoy poking a bit too hard, sure - heck, I guess I can be one of them at times. Mostly, though, I see everything here as friendly sniping and trolling for the sake of trolling. That can get quite annoying - and I can easily see it drive people away, especially if other people don't see it that way - but I don't think there are a lot of people who really hate each other on here. I know that I can't manage more than a mild dislike for the schticks of some people on here, and if/when I ever insult anyone or make fun of them, it's 100% guaranteed just for fun. Just like all my sexual advances (except for when they're directed at you, of course, honey).

Anyway, I can see what could drive people away; we're getting too insular and too cliquey... And it seems that, on a lot of topics, we have a bit of an "everything's been said" feeling. Because there're no new people, we get the same 5 opinions every time. What's the point in starting a new politics thread, if you just know which two or three people are going to come in and state exactly the same opinion you already know?
Moving more to one general forum again might help; as some have said, topics will disappear faster.

And like I said, get rid of the New Posts button. It really blurs the line between different topics, meaning people carry things over from thread to thread far more readily.

Also: I'm into hugs too

Nov 4, 2009#138

Shannow

Being banned is fun! Trust me! I got a lot of work done here at the office, and I came back a kinder, gentler person who understands the thoughts and feelings of all you fucking assholes. I now shit rainbows and puke unicorns.

Nov 4, 2009#139

Shannow

Shegokigo said:
Hm, I read through this thread twice, just to make sure I wasn't missing something.

I don't see this "negative vibe" flowing through the forums. That's because I am probably on here more than almost anyone.

Perhaps it's because I don't take 98% of what comes out of another poster seriously (when it comes to negative situations/arguments) as alot of people can get heated and say things they don't exactly mean from time to time.

Now, if something persists for over a few days, then yeah, I can see the problem. That's a rare ass thing around here these days if you ask me though. :noidea:

Sonofabitch, I agree with sheg completely.

HowDroll said:
I'm honestly pretty entertained by a lot of the flame wars that go on here. I'm also a /b/tard, so take my opinion for what it's worth. I honestly think more moderation would be a bad thing, though. Part of the reason I love this forum is because I can let my hair down (even with the risk of Shego grabbing it and forcing me to do unspeakable things), cuss like a fucking sailor and occasionally give people a hard time, joking or not. Even though more moderation would definitely change the forum's vibe, I'm not sure it would really be for the better.

Also, I agree with this as well, though I am not a /b/tard.

Nov 4, 2009#140

bhamv3

A Troll said:
A few weeks ago someone mentioned that I wasn't posting as much. I explained that I thought this forum was going downhill because of a vocal minority of assholes. Anyone remember what happened? I was immediately accused of actually trolling, and basically some people showed up to prove me right.

I bring this up not only to say "nyah nyah I told you so!", but also to illustrate the problem this forum has. There is a distinct vocal minority of assholes. They like to pick on people, carry flamewars from thread to thread, and they attack anyone who asks them to tone down the vitriol. They jump all over people who disagree with them, and it drives new posters and lurkers away. It borders on bullying behavior, especially the call out threads. There is a way to be civil and disagree at the same time, but some people around here don't even try.

I don't know what will fix the problem. My only suggestion is a stronger presence of moderation. There is a lax culture on this board that allows people, especially people who have been around longer, to be assholes. Somehow that has to be discouraged, or the situation is never going to change. Maybe there are better ideas than moderation. I don't know. All I know is that the increased negativity is noticable, and is an actual problem. It's not the forum just being colorful.

I agree with Troll-dude here.

A while ago, I also posted something along the lines of "a minority of people being asses makes the forum as a whole less attractive for me" and that line got jumped on and derided. I suppose it's a bit ironic I had no idea it'd get such a response, I just made that comment out of passing.

The sentiment remains, however. Just as watching people bicker in real life gets tiresome after a while, reading negative posts by people who posted simply to be negative also gets pretty tiresome.

For a while, we were very lightly moderated. My personal impression is that during the post-Joe Keating era at Image, most of the time at Halfpixel, and most of the early days at HF, moderation was both rare and largely unneeded. Later, however, things started going downhill (again, I believe largely due to a small minority of posters).

I believe stronger moderation would not kill the forum. I believe stronger moderation would, perhaps, drive some people away, but it would also help convince new people to stay. I'm in favor of stronger moderation, as well as public moderation - let people know that there's a line somewhere, and what the consequences are if they cross it.

ElJuski said:
Other than that though? It kind of sounds like people are getting a little too hurt and personal over the internet.

I disagree with ElJuski. Just because it's "the Internet" doesn't mean people can't or won't invest their emotions into a community. I, for one, like this place. I like the people that make up this community. I prefer to participate in this community knowing that my feelings can be respected, and that civility can be maintained. I realize this opinion will probably attract someone's scorn or derision.

Nov 4, 2009#141

Vytamindi

I trust Dave to do whatever he needs/wants/cares to do with this forum.

But I can also see both sides. It's just a forum and people are taking this too seriously... but then again, it has affected my mood both negatively and positively in the past. As long as we agree to disagree instead of bickering back and forth, I think we can be ok.

And if I were a webcomic artist, I would LOVE to host my forum here, but that's because I have been a part of this community for a bit. But as an aspiring forum goer, I would not. It takes a certain thickness of skin to make it around here and I wouldn't want the website my family/friends would check lead here.

We have good mods, good people, and I would hate to see that go to waste.

Nov 4, 2009#142

BoringMetaphor

I think the argument that we shouldn't clamp down on negativity is a moot point. No body has been - and is that working? Are we gaining people? Are we even staying the same level? I dont know the numbers, but my impression is we are losing people over the last.. 10 months? So obviously something has to change. I think people do understand that this is the internet, and there is such things a jokes, but it often goes too far - or people making the jokes have no conception of timing, and just post it anytime anywhere.

Let's imagine a new person comes to the forum, vaguely interested, maybe saw it mentioned somewhere else, maybe from some website we've linked, or a msn conversation. Generally they have no impression of us at all. They come in, and what do they see?

They could see a place where people are lax, where they post what they want, and others generally have to deal with it, that if you try to protest that your feelings are actually hurt, you are ridiculed for caring about such things over the internet. A place where you need a tough skin to survive. If this new person has a tough skin, they will probably start posting. Cause yeah, this place is pretty fun if you have that. But if they dont, they will more than likely not post, or very quickly stop posting, or perhaps make no posts of interests which could raise the ire of others. Ultimately it is a oppressive environment.

The other situation is they arrive and see a place which has some negativity, has arguments, isn't just sunshine and rainbows, but people do respect each other. So even in the biggest arguments, there is the understanding that this is, in fact, the internet, populated with real people, who have real problems and real opinions. That the internet is no longer the den of the socially outcast who want to escape social rules - it is actually now an integrated layer of social interaction in which the majority of our society participates. Though disagreements exist, it is understood that we all actually have to get along with one another, just like the real world.

I think the majority of new posters would much rather stay in the second forum. Though I have skewed the image of each, I think the difference between what I have described is that of a forum and of a community. When HF existed with a steady stream of new people from a website (PVP), and wasnt finanically supported by a member, and so forth, it was a forum. I think what people are dancing around here, and what has to be understood is that we more than that now.

We used to be a forum building a community. We are now a community building a forum. I think what is causing problems here is that people don't understand that difference. If we want to be a forum, with 30 regular posters, running off of Dave's pocketbook, I say keep things the way they are, because I certainly am amused by it. I enjoy that forum.

But if we actually want to build a community here, things need to change.

Nov 4, 2009#143

The Lovely Boehner

hey, did anyone call me out before the Gestapo shut 'em down

Nov 4, 2009#144

Vytamindi

Charlie Dont Surf said:
hey, did anyone call me out before the Gestapo shut 'em down

Why don't you ask a mod in a PM?

Nov 4, 2009#145

Bowielee

This thread is quickly becoming what it was intended to point out, so thanks for those of you reinforcing it.

I may not be the most vocal or regular poster, but I've been here since the HP days.

We also need to get rid of the tags, they serve no purpose other than anonymous sniping, hell look at the tags down there rigth now.

Nov 4, 2009#146

Dave

Flame Wars section is gone.

Expect some more things. No, there will not be a banhammer right now, but I'm working on the rules and infractions. We're going to be using an infraction point system.

Dave mad. Dave smash.

Nov 4, 2009#147

Gusto

I love you, forum tagging system.

Nov 4, 2009#148

Bubble181

Bowielee said:
We also need to get rid of the tags, they serve no purpose other than anonymous sniping, hell look at the tags down there rigth now.

Why? I mean, I agree with you mostly - and you're one of the people I'd love to see post more - but what's wrong with the tags on this thread, for example? I don't see any sniping goin on, I just see people trying to think up nice puns, trying to express what the conversation is about, and so on. I don't see anyone being singled out, or anyone trying to even really poke fun at anyone else's expense.

Nov 4, 2009#149

Shannow

Well, really, I do not think the "vocal minority" is ruining anything. but that is me. Speak up more, if you think they are. Staying silent throughout will do nothing.

Place needs new blood. Thats all. More folks injected would change a lot. Right now, you have jsut the same people recycling against each other. What happened to getting other webcomics and other places linked here? Why has that not been followed up on? The forum will not be all sunshine, so if you are waiting for that to happen before trying to get others here, then you will be waiting a long time.

Time to get out there and bring people in, and large influx wil easily outweigh a vocal minority you all seem to hate, but do nothing about except quietly stew over.

Nov 4, 2009#150

Tiger Tsang

A Troll;289136][quote=drawn_inward;289132][quote=A Troll said:
I don't know what will fix the problem. My only suggestion is a stronger presence of moderation. There is a lax culture on this board that allows people, especially people who have been around longer, to be assholes. .

Nov 4, 2009#151

Dave

Something I've noticed and it has been mentioned before but is really telling - who feels the negativity and who doesn't mind it.

Lurkers and occasional posters are seeing this more than people who are here all the time. Lurkers and people who are scouting the place to see if they want to sign up are the ones seeing the bad stuff and feeling the bad vibes. These are the people we are trying to attract! Why haven't I been able to hook up with a webcomic? Why has Tom not pulled the trigger? Look around.

Look, I'm with the people who do not take these things seriously. But it's my job to take everyone's situation into account and I've gotten some messages from people leaving for good. These are people who have been here since the beginning and are good and decent people. We are losing people at a faster rate and it's our fault!

If we don't do something, we're going to die. This is good for my wallet, but at this point I could care less about my wallet. I want this place to stick around.

So what I'm doing right now is going to other forums and blatantly stealing their rules, then I'm going to edit them to fit us and put it in the mod forum for even further refining.

When I post them live they become canon.

Nov 4, 2009#152

bhamv3

I just suddenly realized we suffer a severe dearth of people with "tiger" in their username.

We need more tigers. Or other predatory animals.

Nov 4, 2009#153

Shannow

Dave said:
Something I've noticed and it has been mentioned before but is really telling - who feels the negativity and who doesn't mind it.

Lurkers and occasional posters are seeing this more than people who are here all the time. Lurkers and people who are scouting the place to see if they want to sign up are the ones seeing the bad stuff and feeling the bad vibes. These are the people we are trying to attract! Why haven't I been able to hook up with a webcomic? Why has Tom not pulled the trigger? Look around.

Look, I'm with the people who do not take these things seriously. But it's my job to take everyone's situation into account and I've gotten some messages from people leaving for good. These are people who have been here since the beginning and are good and decent people. We are losing people at a faster rate and it's our fault!

If we don't do something, we're going to die. This is good for my wallet, but at this point I could care less about my wallet. I want this place to stick around.

So what I'm doing right now is going to other forums and blatantly stealing their rules, then I'm going to edit them to fit us and put it in the mod forum for even further refining.

When I post them live they become canon.

Well, if they would post, then their opinions would be out there to challenge this minority you all hate so much.

Nov 4, 2009#154

bhamv3

Shannow;289544][quote=Dave said:
Something I've noticed and it has been mentioned before but is really telling - who feels the negativity and who doesn't mind it.

Lurkers and occasional posters are seeing this more than people who are here all the time. Lurkers and people who are scouting the place to see if they want to sign up are the ones seeing the bad stuff and feeling the bad vibes. These are the people we are trying to attract! Why haven't I been able to hook up with a webcomic? Why has Tom not pulled the trigger? Look around.

Look, I'm with the people who do not take these things seriously. But it's my job to take everyone's situation into account and I've gotten some messages from people leaving for good. These are people who have been here since the beginning and are good and decent people. We are losing people at a faster rate and it's our fault!

If we don't do something, we're going to die. This is good for my wallet, but at this point I could care less about my wallet. I want this place to stick around.

So what I'm doing right now is going to other forums and blatantly stealing their rules, then I'm going to edit them to fit us and put it in the mod forum for even further refining.

When I post them live they become canon.

Well, if they would post, then their opinions would be out there to challenge this minority you all hate so much.[/QUOTE]

Some of them do. People act like asses to them. They don't post again.

Nov 4, 2009#155

Math242

Dave, please don't go overboard with the rules

Nov 4, 2009#156

Chazwozel

Guys seriously. I'm all up for taking the full brunt of being forum asshole. Every society needs their scapegoat. Let me be your forum Messiah and save you all from yourselves.

Nov 4, 2009#157

Dave

Math242 said:
Dave, please don't go overboard with the rules

We need clear cut rules. I'm mad but not dumb. I'm not cutting off my nose to spite my face. I would look terrible without a nose.

Nov 4, 2009#158

Chazwozel

bhamv3;289548][quote=Shannow;289544][quote=Dave said:
Something I've noticed and it has been mentioned before but is really telling - who feels the negativity and who doesn't mind it.

Lurkers and occasional posters are seeing this more than people who are here all the time. Lurkers and people who are scouting the place to see if they want to sign up are the ones seeing the bad stuff and feeling the bad vibes. These are the people we are trying to attract! Why haven't I been able to hook up with a webcomic? Why has Tom not pulled the trigger? Look around.

Look, I'm with the people who do not take these things seriously. But it's my job to take everyone's situation into account and I've gotten some messages from people leaving for good. These are people who have been here since the beginning and are good and decent people. We are losing people at a faster rate and it's our fault!

If we don't do something, we're going to die. This is good for my wallet, but at this point I could care less about my wallet. I want this place to stick around.

So what I'm doing right now is going to other forums and blatantly stealing their rules, then I'm going to edit them to fit us and put it in the mod forum for even further refining.

When I post them live they become canon.

Well, if they would post, then their opinions would be out there to challenge this minority you all hate so much.[/QUOTE]

Some of them do. People act like asses to them. They don't post again.[/QUOTE]

stfu weenie! That's right. Hang your head in shame and mutter your little curses at me. That's right. Now walk away... walk away... good.

Nov 4, 2009#159

The Lovely Boehner

nooooooooo flame wars nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good night sweet forum, and flights of angels sing you to your rest

Nov 4, 2009#160

Chazwozel

Charlie Dont Surf said:
nooooooooo flame wars nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good night sweet forum, and flights of angels sing you to your rest

stfu you passive aggressive, femidom wannabe pansy ass. What are you gonna do? huh? What are you gonna do? Huh? Mr. pacifist. Blog about it? Post an inspiration film speech on youtube about it? Will it be from Braveheart or Patton? That's what I thought. Turn around and and mutter your incantations to yourself in your Woody Allen voice.... that's right...that's right... walk away... good...

Nov 4, 2009#161

The Lovely Boehner

Chazwozel;289563][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
nooooooooo flame wars nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good night sweet forum, and flights of angels sing you to your rest

Nov 4, 2009#162

Chazwozel

Charlie Dont Surf;289564][quote=Chazwozel;289563][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
nooooooooo flame wars nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good night sweet forum, and flights of angels sing you to your rest

Nov 4, 2009#163

Covar

If I ever get out of hand anywhere other than Politics R Us I apologize. Inside Politics I regret nothing! I will say I definately see the hate in that subforum, but near as I can tell almost every regular poster in there leaves it all at the door when they leave.

That said, I trust you Dave. If things need to change, I'm sure you will take everything into account and make the right decisions.

Nov 4, 2009#164

fade

I've been here since ye ol' Image days, and I can testify that I've ALWAYS felt lots of negativity in this forum. In fact, I've started threads about it, only to ironically be booed offstage by the very negativity I was posting about. There's a great deal of one-up-man-ship on this forum. If someone posts an opinion, it MUST be immediately torn down. Offered opinions are treated as offered fact. Nowhere is this clearer than the political discussions, where people seem to think personal insults are the best approach (and bad statistics taken from clearly biased websites ugh.)

Juski, I like you a lot, but I disagree with your opinion in this matter. Is that ironic, too? I fail to see why an internet conversation should be considered a less real or serious one. Clearly, from the length of this thread, most people feel the conversations held here carry weight.

On the other hand, the very strife we're discussing is what makes this place interesting. Making it go bye-bye will certainly make me (and probably others) go bye-bye. I don't personally like participating in it, but it's a fun read. Usually, when the conversation devolves, or it becomes clear the other person is more interested in arguing than debating, I leave the thread, and remove it from the subscription list. I'd rather not get worked up over something just because you disagree with me.

I dislike the idea of strong moderation. The freedom of this forum was what attracted me back in the image days, and I hope it stays. Some people here could stand to grow thicker skin. Some people need to judge better whether or not something is a joke. Some people need to watch their mouths out of common courtesy. But that's true in real life, too.

Nov 4, 2009#165

Shannow

Dave, you get that PM? I think it may have been lost in the ether.

Nov 4, 2009#166

SpecialKO

fade said:
I dislike the idea of strong moderation. The freedom of this forum was what attracted me back in the image days, and I hope it stays.

I do think there's a notable difference between more moderation and a set of "don't be a dick" rules that everyone can see and buys into before hand.

If everyone agrees to the principle, then visible rules can have a huge affect on behavior, without any active moderation. This has been true in every school or workplace I've ever worked at.

Nov 4, 2009#167

Silver Jelly

Shannow said:
Dave, you get that PM? I think it may have been lost in the ether.

That's where my keys usually end up.

Nov 4, 2009#168

Chazwozel

fade said:
I've been here since ye ol' Image days, and I can testify that I've ALWAYS felt lots of negativity in this forum. In fact, I've started threads about it, only to ironically be booed offstage by the very negativity I was posting about.

Booooo! BOOOOOOOO! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I say. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Wait wait, I wasn't really saying boo. I was saying Boourns.

Nov 4, 2009#169

The Lovely Boehner

I ain't PMing SHIT. I got nothin to hide

Nov 4, 2009#170

Chippy

Rampant Negativity? More like Rampant....Sexativity.

:smug:

Nov 4, 2009#171

Gusto

I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts on this, but I mostly feel like things are being blown out of proportion and we're trying to fix a problem we don't really have.

Nov 4, 2009#172

Silver Jelly

Chippy said:
Rampant Negativity? More like Rampant....Sexativity.

:smug:

Nov 4, 2009#173

Dave

A problem we don't have? 3 webcomic artists have turned me down after reading through the threads, citing that it was not the kind of place they wished to associate. Two longtime users have JUST THIS WEEK left for good.

When does it become a problem?

Nov 4, 2009#174

Fun Size

Gusto said:
I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts on this, but I mostly feel like things are being blown out of proportion and we're trying to fix a problem we don't really have.

I'll add this and then call it good: I've been hanging here since HalfPixel, and in the last couple of months, I've been pissed off more times that the entire time proceeding that. Last week I bailed for a week, and it disappointed me that I didn't miss this place as much as I expected to. I can honestly say it's only a few people who have brought it down for me, but it's enough to make me hang out elsewhere when I'm waiting for code to build, and for Dave's sake we might just consider the fact that this place might truly be draining.

My $.02.

Nov 4, 2009#175

Gusto

I guess I haven't noticed it. *shrug* Aside from Zen being on hiatus or quasi-lurking or whatever. And certainly I can think of several reasons why a webcomic artist may not want to associate with a third-party forum.

Nov 4, 2009#176

The Lovely Boehner

Dave said:
A problem we don't have? 3 webcomic artists have turned me down after reading through the threads, citing that it was not the kind of place they wished to associate. Two longtime users have JUST THIS WEEK left for good.

When does it become a problem?

Did those people say specifically it was because of the negativity?

Nov 4, 2009#177

Dave

Charlie Dont Surf;289594][quote=Dave said:
A problem we don't have? 3 webcomic artists have turned me down after reading through the threads, citing that it was not the kind of place they wished to associate. Two longtime users have JUST THIS WEEK left for good.

When does it become a problem?

Did those people say specifically it was because of the negativity?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

Nov 4, 2009#178

Chazwozel

Dave;289595][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;289594][quote=Dave said:
A problem we don't have? 3 webcomic artists have turned me down after reading through the threads, citing that it was not the kind of place they wished to associate. Two longtime users have JUST THIS WEEK left for good.

When does it become a problem?

Did those people say specifically it was because of the negativity?[/QUOTE]

Yes.[/QUOTE]

Who left?

Nov 4, 2009#179

Shannow

Why only webcomics? There are other places one can go, other forums to try to bing in, etc.

Nov 4, 2009#180

Chazwozel

Silver Jelly;289588][quote=Chippy said:
Rampant Negativity? More like Rampant....Sexativity.

:smug:

[/QUOTE]

Assholes. Now my morning coffee is spewed out on the floor.

Nov 4, 2009#181

Shannow

Chazwozel said:
Who left?

Not really the issue here, as that it would only bring out attacks, bitching, flames, good byes, etc.

Nov 4, 2009#182

Chazwozel

Shannow;289602][quote=Chazwozel said:
Who left?

Not really the issue here, as that it would only bring out attacks, bitching, flames, good byes, etc.[/QUOTE]
I just want to know, so I can try to reel them back in.

Nov 4, 2009#183

AshburnerX

Shannow said:
Why only webcomics? There are other places one can go, other forums to try to bing in, etc.

Nov 4, 2009#184

The Lovely Boehner

I really don't care about these "state of the forums" threads anywhere. I'm going to keep posting here until

A) I get banned
B) It stops being worth it to me

Nov 4, 2009#185

fade

I must say, a lot of old hats seemed to abandon ship with the transition to halforumS. That or they left shortly thereafter. I wonder how much this negativity had to do with it.

Nov 4, 2009#186

Wasabi Poptart

I think part of the problem is that the forum doesn't have a real purpose. HalfPixel was about PvP and other web comics. Yes, we talked about other things, but PvP is why we were all there originally. When Halforum started, it was born out of the outrage of HP being taken down unexpectedly and bile toward teh Kurtz. Even if that is not why you came to this message board, that is essentially why it was made - Kurtz pissed off a lot of people, some wanted to make sure they didn't lose the friends they had made, and we all wanted a place to call home and be able to discuss what had happened.
Now that's all basically settled down, except for the one or two who like to hang on to those bad feelings, and the forum seems like it has no real direction. What do we now have in common here? It's not a web comic board. It's not a video game board. It's not an art board. It's not a board where all the members are working in the same field. It's a bunch of people chatting. I think that is where we are losing new members and why we are seeing people going at each other more. Bringing in "new blood" will work for a while, but then those people don't stay new forever and the cycle continues.

Nov 4, 2009#187

Shannow

AshburnerX;289605][quote=Shannow said:
Why only webcomics? There are other places one can go, other forums to try to bing in, etc.

That's really not the issue. We're going to have similar problems with any people we try to court. We NEED to rein this in before the assholeishness reaches critical mass and Dave pulls a Kurtz and deletes the forum.[/quote]

Bullshit. Forums can thrive on assholishness and grow jsut as much as they can on joy joy feelings. And they grow can on both. And thats what you want...both.

---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 AM ----------

Wildsoul said:
I think part of the problem is that the forum doesn't have a real purpose. HalfPixel was about PvP and other web comics. Yes, we talked about other things, but PvP is why we were all there originally. When Halforum started, it was born out of the outrage of HP being taken down unexpectedly and bile toward teh Kurtz. Even if that is not why you came to this message board, that is essentially why it was made - Kurtz pissed off a lot of people, some wanted to make sure they didn't lose the friends they had made, and we all wanted a place to call home and be able to discuss what had happened.
Now that's all basically settled down, except for the one or two who like to hang on to those bad feelings, and the forum seems like it has no real direction. What do we now have in common here? It's not a web comic board. It's not a video game board. It's not an art board. It's not a board where all the members are working in the same field. It's a bunch of people chatting. I think that is where we are losing new members and why we are seeing people going at each other more. Bringing in "new blood" will work for a while, but then those people don't stay new forever and the cycle continues.

This is very much true. There is no direction or binding purpose here. And we do not have enough people for it to thrive without one.

Nov 4, 2009#188

Chippy

Chazwozel;289603][quote=Shannow;289602][quote=Chazwozel said:
Who left?

Not really the issue here, as that it would only bring out attacks, bitching, flames, good byes, etc.[/QUOTE]
I just want to know, so I can try to reel them back in.[/QUOTE]

Like a shark?

Nov 4, 2009#189

Chibibar

I do feel that I have been attacked to personally due my inability to explain myself properly or confusion. When those times arise, I just walk away and don't deal in that thread.

As for a fix? I don't know. I think there are many external stuff going on with many people right now and it reflects on the forum. Putting in harsh rules will drive some people away but is it worth it? I don't think so, there are some forums with some really harsh rules and I just don't visit anymore (can't remember any since they are out of my head)

Nov 4, 2009#190

Espy

I think it's important to remember, no one is going to force people to be "constructive" or to not make jokes, etc, etc. There is a difference between making a joke about the new Uwe Boll film and calling someone a fag when they piss you off.
Us mods know the difference and when we see it/it's reported we will act on it appropriately.

Nov 4, 2009#191

Chazwozel

Nov 4, 2009#192

Steven Soderburgin

y'all straight trippin'

---------- Post added at 03:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

Charlie Dont Surf said:
I really don't care about these "state of the forums" threads anywhere. I'm going to keep posting here until

A) I get banned
B) It stops being worth it to me

p. much!

Nov 4, 2009#193

Math242

now i wonder who left

Nov 4, 2009#194

Bubble181

Espy said:
I think it's important to remember, no one is going to force people to be "constructive" or to not make jokes, etc, etc. There is a difference between making a joke about the new Uwe Boll film and calling someone a fag when they piss you off.
Us mods know the difference and when we see it/it's reported we will act on it appropriately.

Fag!?

Nov 4, 2009#195

Silver Jelly

I wish I could quit them.

Nov 4, 2009#196

Gusto

*snrk*

Nov 4, 2009#197

Bubble181

WHy would you want to quit fags? They're great when you're in the mood.

Nov 4, 2009#198

Dave

Apparently I'm not serious.

Nov 4, 2009#199

North_Ranger

Shannow said:
This is very much true. There is no direction or binding purpose here. And we do not have enough people for it to thrive without one.

Hence the stated mission: to make this a place where webcomic artists can host their forums. New blood, purpose, yada yada yada...

If they weren't frightened off. And equating this concern for negativity with "farting rainbows and unicorns" ain't helping.

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