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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
#1
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
Ordinarily, the term "fanfiction" leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. But this particular Harry Potter re-imagining is really amazing, fanfiction or no. It depicts what might have happened if Harry was a child prodigy super genius. You will particularly enjoy this if you a) liked Harry Potter but cringed at all the ludicrousness of the wizard world, b) you in general love science and wish it got represented in fiction better.
While magic is part of the story, essentially Harry's main "superpower" is being a scientist. He literally solves most of his problems by analyzing the data, forming a hypothesis, running multiple trials to test said hypothesis and then adjusting his theories accordingly. (You might consider this a "Harry Potter", "XKCD" crossover).
Ordinarily, the term "fanfiction" leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. But this particular Harry Potter re-imagining is really amazing, fanfiction or no. It depicts what might have happened if Harry was a child prodigy super genius. You will particularly enjoy this if you a) liked Harry Potter but cringed at all the ludicrousness of the wizard world, b) you in general love science and wish it got represented in fiction better.
While magic is part of the story, essentially Harry's main "superpower" is being a scientist. He literally solves most of his problems by analyzing the data, forming a hypothesis, running multiple trials to test said hypothesis and then adjusting his theories accordingly. (You might consider this a "Harry Potter", "XKCD" crossover).
#2
Dave
Dave
That's extremely well written, especially for fan fiction. I actually want to read more.
#3
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
Did you read the whole thing? It's currently 23 chapters long (and from the looks of it nowhere near finished, with some kind of overarching plot planned out).
#4
Dave
Dave
I have not read the whole thing yet. I stopped about 11 chapters in and then skipped to the very end to see how it would go, finding that it did indeed continue.
#5
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
This a recommended fanfic in Tvtropes, I considered reading it, but I am not sure if I have the time xp
well, Glee is over, maybe I should try xD
well, Glee is over, maybe I should try xD
#6
Dave
Dave
I finished it last night. It's SO worth the read. This is publishable stuff.
#7
Iaculus
Iaculus
Definitely a fun ride - I have it on story alert. Only minor niggles are a couple of WTF-inducing moments here and there, like the rape conversation in Chapter 7, and the cheap shot at English-speaking cultures' work ethics in Chapter 23. To be honest, I'd say that it's only because of the sheer quality of everything else that these little bits stick out like the proverbial aching digits. One thing I do like is the acknowledgement that there is something deeply weird going on with Hypercompetent Rationalist Harry - it helps steer the story away from the obvious pitfall of Mary-Suedom.
Speaking of Harry Potter fanfics, End of The Line is an absolutely excellent little number that I'd place on par with Methods of Rationality, though for very different reasons. It's set after Deathly Hallows, and crosses over slightly with Discworld in a highly unusual manner. Seriously - you owe it to yourself to read it.
Speaking of Harry Potter fanfics, End of The Line is an absolutely excellent little number that I'd place on par with Methods of Rationality, though for very different reasons. It's set after Deathly Hallows, and crosses over slightly with Discworld in a highly unusual manner. Seriously - you owe it to yourself to read it.
#8
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
I am reading it and loving it. Sturgeon law for the win.
#9
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
Wow, this week's chapter was pretty intense. Also the most empathetic we have gotten to see Harry as of yet.
#10
The Lovely Boehner
The Lovely Boehner
"Harry Potter", "XKCD" crossover)
This is one guywiththeglasses positive review from a hat trick!recommended fanfic in Tvtropes
#11
Iaculus
Iaculus
Honestly, Charlie, it would be interesting to see your reactions to actually reading this, given that you're so very much outside the target audience.
Then again, I've always been a fan of watching train-wrecks in action.
Then again, I've always been a fan of watching train-wrecks in action.
#12
Green_Lantern
Either way, a awesome chapter, can't wait for the next xD
Green_Lantern
Amazing how the author can make cannon-harry look so terrible by comparison.Wow, this week's chapter was pretty intense. Also the most empathetic we have gotten to see Harry as of yet.
Either way, a awesome chapter, can't wait for the next xD
#13
Calleja
Calleja
Holy fucking shit.
I just finished chapter 20 and.....holy fucking shit. This.... this is so fucking GOOD. I mean, it has its issues which clearly show the amateur status of the author... but the ideas behind it, and the way he handles internal dialogue, and some of the characters he created... goddamn, sir. Goddamn.
I'm already sad about the fact that I won't be able to know how it ends yet and I still have a few chapters left to go.
Thank you THANK YOU for pointing this out to me.. and since I have no previous experience with fanfic, please keep us updated on further progress on this?
I just finished chapter 20 and.....holy fucking shit. This.... this is so fucking GOOD. I mean, it has its issues which clearly show the amateur status of the author... but the ideas behind it, and the way he handles internal dialogue, and some of the characters he created... goddamn, sir. Goddamn.
I'm already sad about the fact that I won't be able to know how it ends yet and I still have a few chapters left to go.
Thank you THANK YOU for pointing this out to me.. and since I have no previous experience with fanfic, please keep us updated on further progress on this?
#14
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
It actually updates fairly regularly. Last week he added four chapters. Average since I started reading seems to be about one per week.
I'm curious (since I haven't actually had much discussion about the FLAWS of the work thus far) which parts you found amateurish.
I'm curious (since I haven't actually had much discussion about the FLAWS of the work thus far) which parts you found amateurish.
#15
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
don't you mean last month?It actually updates fairly regularly. Last week he added four chapters. Average since I started reading seems to be about one per week.
I'm curious (since I haven't actually had much discussion about the FLAWS of the work thus far) which parts you found amateurish.
#16
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
Might have been two weeks ago, but it was definitely recent. About a month ago I read up to chapter 23, then I waited two weeks without any updates, then he released 3 updates over 6 days, then another week passed and 27 came out.
#17
Green_Lantern
I guess I din't noticed that, by the time that I reached 23 the rest already had been posted xD
Green_Lantern
ohMight have been two weeks ago, but it was definitely recent. About a month ago I read up to chapter 23, then I waited two weeks without any updates, then he released 3 updates over 6 days, then another week passed and 27 came out.
I guess I din't noticed that, by the time that I reached 23 the rest already had been posted xD
#18
Iaculus
Then again, it's not like making yourself an account is going to cost you anything, either.
Oh, and that fanfic I linked a bit of the way up the page? I think it would be right up your street, Calleja.
Iaculus
See the drop-down menu on the bottom-left of the page? I'm not sure if/how it works for those folks who don't have a Fanfiction.net account, but there's an option on that for 'Add Story To Story Alerts', which gives you an e-mail notification whenever a new chapter pops up.Holy fucking shit.
I just finished chapter 20 and.....holy fucking shit. This.... this is so fucking GOOD. I mean, it has its issues which clearly show the amateur status of the author... but the ideas behind it, and the way he handles internal dialogue, and some of the characters he created... goddamn, sir. Goddamn.
I'm already sad about the fact that I won't be able to know how it ends yet and I still have a few chapters left to go.
Thank you THANK YOU for pointing this out to me.. and since I have no previous experience with fanfic, please keep us updated on further progress on this?
Then again, it's not like making yourself an account is going to cost you anything, either.
Oh, and that fanfic I linked a bit of the way up the page? I think it would be right up your street, Calleja.
#20
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Or would be had the guy made up his own characters and setting for all his great ideas. As it is, he can't publish squat of it.I finished it last night. It's SO worth the read. This is publishable stuff.
#21
Iaculus
True, though 'pubilshable', as a term of praise for fanfic, generally refers to quality rather than legality. Like calling games 'cinematic' despite them not being films, if you catch my drift.
Iaculus
Or would be had the guy made up his own characters and setting for all his great ideas. As it is, he can't publish squat of it.[/QUOTE]I finished it last night. It's SO worth the read. This is publishable stuff.
True, though 'pubilshable', as a term of praise for fanfic, generally refers to quality rather than legality. Like calling games 'cinematic' despite them not being films, if you catch my drift.
#22
Hailey Knight
True, though 'pubilshable', as a term of praise for fanfic, generally refers to quality rather than legality. Like calling games 'cinematic' despite them not being films, if you catch my drift.[/QUOTE]
Which is really my point.
And I had some other points written, but they said nothing nice about fanfics or fanfic writers, and I just noticed your signature, so I'm just gonna hold my piece.
Hailey Knight
Or would be had the guy made up his own characters and setting for all his great ideas. As it is, he can't publish squat of it.[/QUOTE]I finished it last night. It's SO worth the read. This is publishable stuff.
True, though 'pubilshable', as a term of praise for fanfic, generally refers to quality rather than legality. Like calling games 'cinematic' despite them not being films, if you catch my drift.[/QUOTE]
Which is really my point.
And I had some other points written, but they said nothing nice about fanfics or fanfic writers, and I just noticed your signature, so I'm just gonna hold my piece.
#23
Iaculus
Iaculus
Personally, though, I'd say that the overall poor quality is an issue with all kinds of Internet-fiction, from webcomics to wovels (gods, I hate that word). Self-published work has no built-in quality controls to filter out the worst excesses of Sturgeon's Law.
Then again, I have encountered some really, really awful published work, so I might attack the term from the other direction, if I were so inclined. But I digress.
Then again, I have encountered some really, really awful published work, so I might attack the term from the other direction, if I were so inclined. But I digress.
#24
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
Guys does anyone know WHERE THE HELL Hagrid is?
True, though 'pubilshable', as a term of praise for fanfic, generally refers to quality rather than legality. Like calling games 'cinematic' despite them not being films, if you catch my drift.[/QUOTE]
Which is really my point.
And I had some other points written, but they said nothing nice about fanfics or fanfic writers, and I just noticed your signature, so I'm just gonna hold my piece.[/QUOTE]
Or would be had the guy made up his own characters and setting for all his great ideas. As it is, he can't publish squat of it.[/QUOTE]I finished it last night. It's SO worth the read. This is publishable stuff.
True, though 'pubilshable', as a term of praise for fanfic, generally refers to quality rather than legality. Like calling games 'cinematic' despite them not being films, if you catch my drift.[/QUOTE]
Which is really my point.
And I had some other points written, but they said nothing nice about fanfics or fanfic writers, and I just noticed your signature, so I'm just gonna hold my piece.[/QUOTE]
The worst part of bad fan fiction is that makes all the fan fiction looks bad and creates people like escushion that seem to believe that not being a professional author makes you writte like a 10 year old with mental problems. And I really want to know Escushion, do you bothered to read any bit of this fic in particular or are you just here to complain?Personally, though, I'd say that the overall poor quality is an issue with all kinds of Internet-fiction, from webcomics to wovels (gods, I hate that word). Self-published work has no built-in quality controls to filter out the worst excesses of Sturgeon's Law.
Then again, I have encountered some really, really awful published work, so I might attack the term from the other direction, if I were so inclined. But I digress.
#25
Iaculus
Iaculus
Heh. Gee, and he was worried about me overreacting...
#26
Hailey Knight
Which is really my point.
And I had some other points written, but they said nothing nice about fanfics or fanfic writers, and I just noticed your signature, so I'm just gonna hold my piece.[/QUOTE]
I read enough to see the writing was good, but my point in responding to Dave was, this guy being a good writer, he could've used his own characters and setting, having nothing to do with Harry Potter, and had it his own.
I wasn't worried about you overreacting, Iaculus; I didn't want to be impolite and offend you. That's why I'm not jumping on Green for his jumping to conclusions and misunderstanding my opinion, since I didn't and haven't made my position clear. I just think this guy could've written this as its own identity.
Hailey Knight
True, though 'pubilshable', as a term of praise for fanfic, generally refers to quality rather than legality. Like calling games 'cinematic' despite them not being films, if you catch my drift.[/QUOTE]Guys does anyone know WHERE THE HELL Hagrid is?
Or would be had the guy made up his own characters and setting for all his great ideas. As it is, he can't publish squat of it.I finished it last night. It's SO worth the read. This is publishable stuff.
Which is really my point.
And I had some other points written, but they said nothing nice about fanfics or fanfic writers, and I just noticed your signature, so I'm just gonna hold my piece.[/QUOTE]
The worst part of bad fan fiction is that makes all the fan fiction looks bad and creates people like escushion that seem to believe that not being a professional author makes you writte like a 10 year old with mental problems. And I really want to know Escushion, do you bothered to read any bit of this fic in particular or are you just here to complain?[/QUOTE]Personally, though, I'd say that the overall poor quality is an issue with all kinds of Internet-fiction, from webcomics to wovels (gods, I hate that word). Self-published work has no built-in quality controls to filter out the worst excesses of Sturgeon's Law.
Then again, I have encountered some really, really awful published work, so I might attack the term from the other direction, if I were so inclined. But I digress.
I read enough to see the writing was good, but my point in responding to Dave was, this guy being a good writer, he could've used his own characters and setting, having nothing to do with Harry Potter, and had it his own.
I wasn't worried about you overreacting, Iaculus; I didn't want to be impolite and offend you. That's why I'm not jumping on Green for his jumping to conclusions and misunderstanding my opinion, since I didn't and haven't made my position clear. I just think this guy could've written this as its own identity.
#27
Iaculus
Iaculus
He could have, yes, but what's wrong with writing an interesting, deconstructive exploration of another series that's also an entertaining story in its own right? Methods of Rationality is as much a study of the Harry Potter novels as it is of the scientific method.
It's also worth noting that Yudkowsky has in fact written some original work of his own - even got some of it published, I think. This is just a hobby.
It's also worth noting that Yudkowsky has in fact written some original work of his own - even got some of it published, I think. This is just a hobby.
#28
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
He's currently writing a book on Rationality. So I'm not worried about him wasting his talents.
#29
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
If you are going to make a parody/descontruction of something, why to make up new characters and universe when using the already-made-one gives a much clearer message.
#30
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
He could have made an official parody (and call it Larry Potter) but that honestly would have been a bit lame. He also could have just referenced generic fantasy tropes instead of Harry Potter in particular, but then he wouldn't get to employ a lot of techniques that require us to have very specific knowledge of what already happened.
Given that he IS already writing a real book, and he clearly has an itch to write this particular story, I don't think there's anything wrong with him doing it for fun in his spare time.
Given that he IS already writing a real book, and he clearly has an itch to write this particular story, I don't think there's anything wrong with him doing it for fun in his spare time.
#31
ElJuski
That doesn't mean that all published work isn't trash, either.
But here's the thing. I don't have too much time on this planet. I'm going to hedge my bets a little. And if that means hurting some poor bastard's feelings on the internet? Oh well, so it goes.
ElJuski
Fan fiction usually is trash. So, therefore, anything good that comes out of it has to really transcend itself from its peers.The worst part of bad fan fiction is that makes all the fan fiction looks bad and creates people like escushion that seem to believe that not being a professional author makes you writte like a 10 year old with mental problems. And I really want to know Escushion, do you bothered to read any bit of this fic in particular or are you just here to complain?
That doesn't mean that all published work isn't trash, either.
But here's the thing. I don't have too much time on this planet. I'm going to hedge my bets a little. And if that means hurting some poor bastard's feelings on the internet? Oh well, so it goes.
#32
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
Chapter 29 is up =D
#33
ElJuski
ElJuski
noooo i get neg repped for this thread
#35
Green_Lantern
Also: for the people reading the fic, do you guys think that the Bill Weasley bit is important? maybe something similar happened with Voldemort causing the changes in this timeline?
Green_Lantern
Don't look at me, I already had forgotten that you had this featurenoooo i get neg repped for this thread
OHMYGOSHTHATISSOCUTE!
Also: for the people reading the fic, do you guys think that the Bill Weasley bit is important? maybe something similar happened with Voldemort causing the changes in this timeline?
#36
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
I'm sure it's important but I'm not sure how. Then again maybe the author is just commenting on how silly it was for Scabbers to hang out with the Weaslies for 10 years. One of the things that bugs me about the fic is when changes are made for the sake of changes, as oppose to resulting from the few key initial changes. I *think* that the only major key change is that Harry and Voldemort are both smarter, but things like Scabbers (and McGonagall's speech about Transfiguration safety) keep throwing me.
#37
Green_Lantern
Honestly I am believing that the true initial change might be only Voldemort, and that Harry intelligence might be a ripple effect from it. =P
I still want to know where the hell is Haggrid.
Green_Lantern
I was thinking that this was more "serious" towards a alternate-universe-fic, but I guess he just wants a descontruction fic.I'm sure it's important but I'm not sure how. Then again maybe the author is just commenting on how silly it was for Scabbers to hang out with the Weaslies for 10 years. One of the things that bugs me about the fic is when changes are made for the sake of changes, as oppose to resulting from the few key initial changes. I *think* that the only major key change is that Harry and Voldemort are both smarter, but things like Scabbers (and McGonagall's speech about Transfiguration safety) keep throwing me.
Honestly I am believing that the true initial change might be only Voldemort, and that Harry intelligence might be a ripple effect from it. =P
I still want to know where the hell is Haggrid.
#38
Iaculus
Iaculus
Although it's almost certainly significant, I mostly saw the business with Bill Weasley as a lovely little jab at Peggy Sue fanfiction. Honestly, we just haven't got enough of a shape to the overarching plot yet to decide which changes are significant and which aren't, and so long as some evidence remains that we are actually going somewhere with all this, I'm rather enjoying all the white noise and misdirections. I just hope it doesn't go all Lost on us and turn out that he's been making it up as he goes along.
#39
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
For a while I was thinking there was a singular "true" change that was resulting from time travel (from a wizard in the original continuity who succeeded at doing what Harry is trying to do, allowing themselves to overwrite the "normal" rules for time travel for some reason) and that both Harry and Voldemort were somehow smarter as a result.
---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------
I'm pretty sure he knows where he's going. He did promise (well, maybe sarcastically) that he'd tell anyone who guessed the deal with the sorting hat the entire rest of the plot. I'm also pretty sure that Harry WILL end up dealing with everything on the last day of the school year, as he offerred to McGonagall.
---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------
I'm pretty sure he knows where he's going. He did promise (well, maybe sarcastically) that he'd tell anyone who guessed the deal with the sorting hat the entire rest of the plot. I'm also pretty sure that Harry WILL end up dealing with everything on the last day of the school year, as he offerred to McGonagall.
#40
Green_Lantern
It was interesting when he pointed out that Sirius was laughing, it bugged me just a little in the original book, but now I am curious about it (spell? madness? rumor that was believed as a fact?)
Well, Happy Harry Potter day to everyone xD
Green_Lantern
Peter's death is actually a major change, at least in the original continuity it was he (appearing a news paper) that caused Sirius to finally escape from Azkaban.Although it's almost certainly significant, I mostly saw the business with Bill Weasley as a lovely little jab at Peggy Sue fanfiction. Honestly, we just haven't got enough of a shape to the overarching plot yet to decide which changes are significant and which aren't, and so long as some evidence remains that we are actually going somewhere with all this, I'm rather enjoying all the white noise and misdirections. I just hope it doesn't go all Lost on us and turn out that he's been making it up as he goes along.
It was interesting when he pointed out that Sirius was laughing, it bugged me just a little in the original book, but now I am curious about it (spell? madness? rumor that was believed as a fact?)
This seems fairly likely.For a while I was thinking there was a singular "true" change that was resulting from time travel (from a wizard in the original continuity who succeeded at doing what Harry is trying to do, allowing themselves to overwrite the "normal" rules for time travel for some reason) and that both Harry and Voldemort were somehow smarter as a result.
Well, Happy Harry Potter day to everyone xD
#42
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
That was just glorious.
now I want a hogwarts based RTS game u.u
now I want a hogwarts based RTS game u.u
#43
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
New chapter up. Even moreso than last one, you need to have read Ender's Game to fully appreciate.
#44
twitchmoss
twitchmoss
I'm loving this fanfic. The humour, the alternate character interpretations, and the fact that harry is a born mad scientist let loose on backwards magical britain. "I claim this country in the name of SCIENCE!"
the battles plot has been greatf rom the get go as well, especially all the shoutouts to stuff, like Dragon army, "all wings report in!" "red 5 standing by!" and of course "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"
you can never have enough plotting!
the battles plot has been greatf rom the get go as well, especially all the shoutouts to stuff, like Dragon army, "all wings report in!" "red 5 standing by!" and of course "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"
you can never have enough plotting!
#45
Green_Lantern
Interesting that he changed the holiday again, what do you guys think it is suppose to mean?
Green_Lantern
That chapter is awesome, I wish he could write faster/more =)I'm loving this fanfic. The humour, the alternate character interpretations, and the fact that harry is a born mad scientist let loose on backwards magical britain. "I claim this country in the name of SCIENCE!"
the battles plot has been greatf rom the get go as well, especially all the shoutouts to stuff, like Dragon army, "all wings report in!" "red 5 standing by!" and of course "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"
you can never have enough plotting!
Interesting that he changed the holiday again, what do you guys think it is suppose to mean?
#46
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
This last chapter was fairly intense, and bugged me. I expect it to bug various other people for various reasons.
SPOILERS BELOW
I don't like Dumbledore being portrayed as an delusional fool. This isn't because I think it's *wrong* to portray him as such (and I totally understand the author's reason for doing so). I just don't like it. I think this may be my version of the "Harry's a jerk for not liking Ron" moment. Dumbledore was a cool character, so using him mostly as commentary on the ludicrousness of the old-wise-wizard-who-only-speaks-in-riddles trope just feels disrespectful to me.
Even if, in all honestly, it's kinda deserved. Dumbledore happened to be right about everything, it hinged on everyone in the story being, well, crazy. Which is the point of this whole fic, so... eh. Dunno.
I AM genuinely annoyed that this is not a strict single point of departure fic. (or two point, if you have one for Harry and one for Quirrell). I think it's far more fun to try to figure out where the few changes were made and why they affected the story the way they did, rather than having changes like Sirus and Scabbers show up at random for no discernable reason. Consequently I can't tell if this is his attempt to write the original Dumbledore character, in new circumstances, or if he considers himself to be changing Dumbledore's character.
I'd like to imagine that the original Dumbledore would have been more of an equal to Harry than this one is portrayed as, but I have to admit that the original Dumbledore is never shown responding to the kinds of logical issues that Harry is presenting.
I also want to get into the argument-for-cryonics that the chapter is also advocating, but it's late and I'm tired and I think I may want to do so in a separate thread.
SPOILERS BELOW
I don't like Dumbledore being portrayed as an delusional fool. This isn't because I think it's *wrong* to portray him as such (and I totally understand the author's reason for doing so). I just don't like it. I think this may be my version of the "Harry's a jerk for not liking Ron" moment. Dumbledore was a cool character, so using him mostly as commentary on the ludicrousness of the old-wise-wizard-who-only-speaks-in-riddles trope just feels disrespectful to me.
Even if, in all honestly, it's kinda deserved. Dumbledore happened to be right about everything, it hinged on everyone in the story being, well, crazy. Which is the point of this whole fic, so... eh. Dunno.
I AM genuinely annoyed that this is not a strict single point of departure fic. (or two point, if you have one for Harry and one for Quirrell). I think it's far more fun to try to figure out where the few changes were made and why they affected the story the way they did, rather than having changes like Sirus and Scabbers show up at random for no discernable reason. Consequently I can't tell if this is his attempt to write the original Dumbledore character, in new circumstances, or if he considers himself to be changing Dumbledore's character.
I'd like to imagine that the original Dumbledore would have been more of an equal to Harry than this one is portrayed as, but I have to admit that the original Dumbledore is never shown responding to the kinds of logical issues that Harry is presenting.
I also want to get into the argument-for-cryonics that the chapter is also advocating, but it's late and I'm tired and I think I may want to do so in a separate thread.
#47
Iaculus
Iaculus
I suspect that there is a singular point of departure in this fic - and it's Voldemort. Just about every divergence, up to and including Harry's transplanted personality, can be traced to him behaving differently. In fact, especially Harry's transplanted personality - remember that he's a Horcrux? The parallels between Harry and Quirrell's thought processes may have more significance than is immediately apparent.
Also, read the author's notes - Yudkowsky acknowledges that there is a functional afterlife in the Harry Potter 'verse, creating an interesting case of a strawman arguing for the side that's actually right. That said, strawmen are generally to be avoided regardless, and I think the author was having some genuine difficulties, thanks to his own beliefs, in making Dumbledore's arguments compelling. Bad Eliezer. Bad.
Also, read the author's notes - Yudkowsky acknowledges that there is a functional afterlife in the Harry Potter 'verse, creating an interesting case of a strawman arguing for the side that's actually right. That said, strawmen are generally to be avoided regardless, and I think the author was having some genuine difficulties, thanks to his own beliefs, in making Dumbledore's arguments compelling. Bad Eliezer. Bad.
#48
tegid
Also, Iauculus, I very much like your argument, BUT there's another element in Harry's character which is his family and that should have nothing to do with Voldemort.
tegid
I interpret Dumbledore's 'madness' as the effect on him made by the main differences in this universe with respect to the original. I think that his 'wisdom' about how things should work, Harry, the hero, etc. has been crooked by the changes that make such wisdom incorrect where it was brilliant in the original universe.This last chapter was fairly intense, and bugged me. I expect it to bug various other people for various reasons.
SPOILERS BELOW
I don't like Dumbledore being portrayed as an delusional fool. This isn't because I think it's *wrong* to portray him as such (and I totally understand the author's reason for doing so). I just don't like it. I think this may be my version of the "Harry's a jerk for not liking Ron" moment. Dumbledore was a cool character, so using him mostly as commentary on the ludicrousness of the old-wise-wizard-who-only-speaks-in-riddles trope just feels disrespectful to me.
Even if, in all honestly, it's kinda deserved. Dumbledore happened to be right about everything, it hinged on everyone in the story being, well, crazy. Which is the point of this whole fic, so... eh. Dunno.
I AM genuinely annoyed that this is not a strict single point of departure fic. (or two point, if you have one for Harry and one for Quirrell). I think it's far more fun to try to figure out where the few changes were made and why they affected the story the way they did, rather than having changes like Sirus and Scabbers show up at random for no discernable reason. Consequently I can't tell if this is his attempt to write the original Dumbledore character, in new circumstances, or if he considers himself to be changing Dumbledore's character.
I'd like to imagine that the original Dumbledore would have been more of an equal to Harry than this one is portrayed as, but I have to admit that the original Dumbledore is never shown responding to the kinds of logical issues that Harry is presenting.
I also want to get into the argument-for-cryonics that the chapter is also advocating, but it's late and I'm tired and I think I may want to do so in a separate thread.
Also, Iauculus, I very much like your argument, BUT there's another element in Harry's character which is his family and that should have nothing to do with Voldemort.
#49
Iaculus
Iaculus
True, but even there, the point of divergence happened during Voldemort's reign. I'm not saying snakeboy planned all this, obviously, but it's possible that he was responsible for it by accident. A change in strategy, for instance, resulting in Vernon Dursley to end up as collateral damage, or a meet-cute moment between Petunia and Michael in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. The butterfly effect at work, basically.
It's a theory, anyway.
It's a theory, anyway.
#50
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Raemon777
R
Raemon777
The original chapter actual states outright that it is not a strict "single point of departure" story. (I think the line was added later, I'm pretty sure I didn't see it there originally).
#51
tegid
tegid
He comented a couple of chapters ago that he was adding that line.
I thought it was implied (or outright said?) that Lily brewed a potion for her sister that made her beautiful, thus being able to be with someone better than Vernon. That may be an effect of Voldemort acting differently, but it seems a stretch.
I thought it was implied (or outright said?) that Lily brewed a potion for her sister that made her beautiful, thus being able to be with someone better than Vernon. That may be an effect of Voldemort acting differently, but it seems a stretch.
#52
Green_Lantern
---
It isn't much of a strech that Voldemort could have caused Lily to give the potion to Petunia, maybe some action that he did made Lily try to make amends with her sister??
Green_Lantern
Well, all we know is that a butterfly made a horse lose his nail, and it seems that Eliezer keeps changins his mind in the diverge point for the sake of desconstruction/scientific exposition.He comented a couple of chapters ago that he was adding that line.
I thought it was implied (or outright said?) that Lily brewed a potion for her sister that made her beautiful, thus being able to be with someone better than Vernon. That may be an effect of Voldemort acting differently, but it seems a stretch.
---
It isn't much of a strech that Voldemort could have caused Lily to give the potion to Petunia, maybe some action that he did made Lily try to make amends with her sister??
#53
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
It's certainly possible, and I think the story would be better if that's how we was handling it, but the current evidence suggests that that is not the case.It isn't much of a strech that Voldemort could have caused Lily to give the potion to Petunia, maybe some action that he did made Lily try to make amends with her sister??
#54
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
I know that it isn't going by the scientific method, but it just speculation, only word of god knows the answer.It's certainly possible, and I think the story would be better if that's how we was handling it, but the current evidence suggests that that is not the case.It isn't much of a strech that Voldemort could have caused Lily to give the potion to Petunia, maybe some action that he did made Lily try to make amends with her sister??
#55
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
Well, yeah, and we have Word of God. Which is a pretty compelling piece of evidence.
(Granted, God could be lying to throw us off the scent. Although, it's possible there's one main point of divergence where the key story elements are framed from, and random stuff like Scabbers/Sirius Black is changed just for fun.)
(Granted, God could be lying to throw us off the scent. Although, it's possible there's one main point of divergence where the key story elements are framed from, and random stuff like Scabbers/Sirius Black is changed just for fun.)
#56
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
i was speaking about my sugestion that the "nail" lily giving the potion to petunia might be caused by Voldermort, making the "actual" origin of divergencesWell, yeah, and we have Word of God. Which is a pretty compelling piece of evidence.
(Granted, God could be lying to throw us off the scent. Although, it's possible there's one main point of divergence where the key story elements are framed from, and random stuff like Scabbers/Sirius Black is changed just for fun.)
#58
Green_Lantern
...
So, is the Atlantis thing actually true? I don't remember anything about atlantis in the books.
Green_Lantern
VERNON IS ACTUALLY A PEGGY SUE!So..... single point of departure what now?
...
So, is the Atlantis thing actually true? I don't remember anything about atlantis in the books.
#59
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
I was referring to the Siruius/Peter thing...
I don't recall whether Atlantis was mentioned in the original series or not. I think it's sort of become a standard origin-point-of-wizardry in fanfiction. My guess is that somewhere in the 7 books, there is an offhand reference to it that might or might not be significant.
I don't recall whether Atlantis was mentioned in the original series or not. I think it's sort of become a standard origin-point-of-wizardry in fanfiction. My guess is that somewhere in the 7 books, there is an offhand reference to it that might or might not be significant.
#60
Green_Lantern
edit:
only now I have read the chapter 42... and wow, just wow.
Green_Lantern
Like the spoon thing?I was referring to the Siruius/Peter thing...
I don't recall whether Atlantis was mentioned in the original series or not. I think it's sort of become a standard origin-point-of-wizardry in fanfiction. My guess is that somewhere in the 7 books, there is an offhand reference to it that might or might not be significant.
edit:
only now I have read the chapter 42... and wow, just wow.
#61
@Li3n
@Li3n
This alternate take had me in stitches:
"Oh, dear. This has never happened before..."
What?
"I've had to tell students before that they were mothers - it would break your heart to know what I saw in their minds - but this is the first time I've ever had to tell someone they were a father."
WHAT?
"Draco Malfoy is carrying your baby."
WHAAAAAAAT?
"To repeat: Draco Malfoy is carrying your baby."
But we're only eleven -
"Actually, Draco is secretly thirteen years old."
B-b-but men can't get pregnant -
"And a girl under those clothes."
BUT WE'VE NEVER HAD SEX, YOU IDIOT!
"SHE OBLIVIATED YOU AFTER THE RAPE, MORON!"
Harry Potter fainted. His unconscious body fell off the stool with a dull thud.
"RAVENCLAW!" called out the Hat from where it lay on top of his head. That had been even funnier than its first idea.
#62
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
WWOOOOOOAAAAH!!!!!!!!!
Spoiler:
This latest chapter is particularly interested because not only was it, well, really freakishly intense, but it provided not one but two or possibly three sources of "original inciting incident that drives most of the plot." My first thought was "in this universe, Lily Potter is more hateful," which could have influenced Petunia in a number of ways. Later on we see some possibilities as to how Dumbledore might be orchestrating things differently, and indeed, if he is, that would cause a LOT of things to change from the get go. Then I was reminded that the prophecy is different here too. Different prophecy = different Dumbledore = different everything."
Spoiler:
This latest chapter is particularly interested because not only was it, well, really freakishly intense, but it provided not one but two or possibly three sources of "original inciting incident that drives most of the plot." My first thought was "in this universe, Lily Potter is more hateful," which could have influenced Petunia in a number of ways. Later on we see some possibilities as to how Dumbledore might be orchestrating things differently, and indeed, if he is, that would cause a LOT of things to change from the get go. Then I was reminded that the prophecy is different here too. Different prophecy = different Dumbledore = different everything."
#63
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
I love this Author, I really do,
behold this note:
behold this note:
If you'll excuse me, I'd like to go on a bit of a rant about some of the more idiot responses to Ch. 42, namely the ones who said "OMG this fic is now slash and I'm too good to read slash so I'm going to stop reading and let everyone know that!"
The obvious response to this would be to start inserting actual slash. But while I'd willingly take a pill that made me bisexual, this pill does not yet exist, so right now, writing actual slash would be about as much fun for me as a root canal.
So behold this rant, then:
I think of myself as someone who deliberately cuts against the grain of status and prestige. Which, of course, is something that everyone likes to think about themselves. But then again, my claim does have a certain credibility, because I had a reputation as a "real" writer before I started writing Harry Potter fanfiction, and I did that with malice aforethought to intentionally drop myself down multiple levels on the Geek Hierarchy. Snobbery offends me; I am offended by people who are prejudiced against beauty because of its form or its medium. I am offended by people who think "Calvin and Hobbes" can't be real art because it's a comic strip, and I can curse them with no darker fate than that they go look at some ugly, pointless, fake "modern art" that will impress their friends more. And I am equally offended by people who look down on fanfiction because it's fanfiction, who'd take something beautiful like "Always and Always" and turn up their noses at it. So I write Harry Potter fanfiction and be damned to them all. Someday, when I think I can get away with it, I will write deep intellectual self-insert pornography that is even better than MoR just so I can watch people's heads explode.
#64
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Just read the last updates. Not too bad, though this Harry is starting to annoy me (though not as badly as the original). It feels to me like the fic hit its peak with armies bit, which was hilarious and awesome, and now the author is fumbling a bit looking for new momentum.
#65
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
I think it has plenty of momentum, but as we approach the things the author is really wanting to talk about, I expect more people to feel a little alienated by Harry's mindset. I thought the last 4 chapters were absolutely fantastic, and if you've read anything else the author has wrote you'll know that this is something he's really passionate about. But I can see why others might be put off by them.
#66
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
It's not Harry's mindset that annoys me, it's more that it's now a plot device for Harry to zone off into his head and tell the audience what's going on instead of having it happen. There are definitely fantasy/SF books that do an excellent job with that kind of presentation (Lovecraft was really good at it when he wasn't freaking out about black people), but I don't think it's really a strong point of this author's style. He did much better in the beginning of the fic where we quickly went back and forth between Harry's head and actual things occurring besides having a conversation partner to drive the things in Harry's head.I think it has plenty of momentum, but as we approach the things the author is really wanting to talk about, I expect more people to feel a little alienated by Harry's mindset.
#67
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
Eh, I think the Dementor scene absolutely needed to be done in Harry's head, because Harry's head is where the action is actually taking place. And the scene itself seemed fundamentally necessary to the plot rather than tacked on.
#68
tegid
tegid
I completely agree with that. At other times the inner dialogue excess has annoyed me, but it felt exactly right here. I think he was able to evoke a powerful image. I guess it won't be the same for everyone.Eh, I think the Dementor scene absolutely needed to be done in Harry's head, because Harry's head is where the action is actually taking place. And the scene itself seemed fundamentally necessary to the plot rather than tacked on.
#69
Green_Lantern
I feel that the inner dialogue "excess" is just a part of the characterization of this Harry.
And yeah, that scene was just right.
Green_Lantern
I completely agree with that. At other times the inner dialogue excess has annoyed me, but it felt exactly right here. I think he was able to evoke a powerful image. I guess it won't be the same for everyone.[/QUOTE]Eh, I think the Dementor scene absolutely needed to be done in Harry's head, because Harry's head is where the action is actually taking place. And the scene itself seemed fundamentally necessary to the plot rather than tacked on.
I feel that the inner dialogue "excess" is just a part of the characterization of this Harry.
And yeah, that scene was just right.
#70
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
new chapter is up
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Chapter 47: Personhood Theory, a Harry Potter fanfic - FanFiction.Net
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Chapter 47: Personhood Theory, a Harry Potter fanfic - FanFiction.Net
Snakes are sentient?
#71
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
Read this earlier today, loved it. Amused that the author considers it one of his least favorite chapters.
#72
Green_Lantern
also, I liked the reference to Three Worlds Collide.
Green_Lantern
Yes, I enjoyed, but I don't know what to think abou yet another divergence point added to the plot, by now I starting to think that he is adding it only to mess up with us.Read this earlier today, loved it. Amused that the author considers it one of his least favorite chapters.
also, I liked the reference to Three Worlds Collide.
#73
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
Ironically I had just randomly read Three Worlds Collide a few days ago. So I got the reference just in time.
This is actually the point at which I'm starting to LIKE the fact that there are multiple points of divergence. Because of that, we honestly don't KNOW what the deal with Dumbledore and Narcissa is. I'm guessing that Dumbledore didn't really burn her alive and is generally a good guy, but that there is some complex stuff going on that's going to shed different light on Dumbledore (not in a bad, just different, way).
This is actually the point at which I'm starting to LIKE the fact that there are multiple points of divergence. Because of that, we honestly don't KNOW what the deal with Dumbledore and Narcissa is. I'm guessing that Dumbledore didn't really burn her alive and is generally a good guy, but that there is some complex stuff going on that's going to shed different light on Dumbledore (not in a bad, just different, way).
#74
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
I LOL'd at the ending to this one.
#75
Green_Lantern
I wonder if will need to go to the hospital or something after that, it sure sounds possible xD
---------- Post added at 04:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 AM ----------
Green_Lantern
It was hilarious too, I din't predicted the parselmouth thing, but poor Draco should have know better.I LOL'd at the ending to this one.
I wonder if will need to go to the hospital or something after that, it sure sounds possible xD
---------- Post added at 04:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 AM ----------
Gonna give you that point. My only problem is fear that we won't get a good explanation to all divergences, specially because the guy never read books 4-7Ironically I had just randomly read Three Worlds Collide a few days ago. So I got the reference just in time.
This is actually the point at which I'm starting to LIKE the fact that there are multiple points of divergence. Because of that, we honestly don't KNOW what the deal with Dumbledore and Narcissa is. I'm guessing that Dumbledore didn't really burn her alive and is generally a good guy, but that there is some complex stuff going on that's going to shed different light on Dumbledore (not in a bad, just different, way).
#76
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
#78
Green_Lantern
I can't even imagine how Harry can escape this one...
Green_Lantern
This last chapter.... how much I hate cliffhangers.Woah.
I can't even imagine how Harry can escape this one...
#79
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
This reminds me of the climax of Toy Story 3. It's not that I can't imagine a way for it to resolve, it's just that I can't think of a way for it to resolve without being lame. But I'm pretty confident that it will, somehow.