I'm sure it's important but I'm not sure how. Then again maybe the author is just commenting on how silly it was for Scabbers to hang out with the Weaslies for 10 years. One of the things that bugs me about the fic is when changes are made for the sake of changes, as oppose to resulting from the few key initial changes. I *think* that the only major key change is that Harry and Voldemort are both smarter, but things like Scabbers (and McGonagall's speech about Transfiguration safety) keep throwing me.
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
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Green_Lantern
Staff member
I was thinking that this was more "serious" towards a alternate-universe-fic, but I guess he just wants a descontruction fic.
Honestly I am believing that the true initial change might be only Voldemort, and that Harry intelligence might be a ripple effect from it. =P
I still want to know where the hell is Haggrid.
I
Iaculus
Although it's almost certainly significant, I mostly saw the business with Bill Weasley as a lovely little jab at Peggy Sue fanfiction. Honestly, we just haven't got enough of a shape to the overarching plot yet to decide which changes are significant and which aren't, and so long as some evidence remains that we are actually going somewhere with all this, I'm rather enjoying all the white noise and misdirections. I just hope it doesn't go all Lost on us and turn out that he's been making it up as he goes along.
For a while I was thinking there was a singular "true" change that was resulting from time travel (from a wizard in the original continuity who succeeded at doing what Harry is trying to do, allowing themselves to overwrite the "normal" rules for time travel for some reason) and that both Harry and Voldemort were somehow smarter as a result.
---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------
I'm pretty sure he knows where he's going. He did promise (well, maybe sarcastically) that he'd tell anyone who guessed the deal with the sorting hat the entire rest of the plot. I'm also pretty sure that Harry WILL end up dealing with everything on the last day of the school year, as he offerred to McGonagall.
---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------
I'm pretty sure he knows where he's going. He did promise (well, maybe sarcastically) that he'd tell anyone who guessed the deal with the sorting hat the entire rest of the plot. I'm also pretty sure that Harry WILL end up dealing with everything on the last day of the school year, as he offerred to McGonagall.
Green_Lantern
Staff member
Peter's death is actually a major change, at least in the original continuity it was he (appearing a news paper) that caused Sirius to finally escape from Azkaban.
It was interesting when he pointed out that Sirius was laughing, it bugged me just a little in the original book, but now I am curious about it (spell? madness? rumor that was believed as a fact?)
This seems fairly likely.
Well, Happy Harry Potter day to everyone xD
Green_Lantern
Staff member
That was just glorious.
now I want a hogwarts based RTS game u.u
now I want a hogwarts based RTS game u.u
I'm loving this fanfic. The humour, the alternate character interpretations, and the fact that harry is a born mad scientist let loose on backwards magical britain. "I claim this country in the name of SCIENCE!"
the battles plot has been greatf rom the get go as well, especially all the shoutouts to stuff, like Dragon army, "all wings report in!" "red 5 standing by!" and of course "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"
you can never have enough plotting!
the battles plot has been greatf rom the get go as well, especially all the shoutouts to stuff, like Dragon army, "all wings report in!" "red 5 standing by!" and of course "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"
you can never have enough plotting!
Green_Lantern
Staff member
That chapter is awesome, I wish he could write faster/more =)
Interesting that he changed the holiday again, what do you guys think it is suppose to mean?
This last chapter was fairly intense, and bugged me. I expect it to bug various other people for various reasons.
SPOILERS BELOW
I don't like Dumbledore being portrayed as an delusional fool. This isn't because I think it's *wrong* to portray him as such (and I totally understand the author's reason for doing so). I just don't like it. I think this may be my version of the "Harry's a jerk for not liking Ron" moment. Dumbledore was a cool character, so using him mostly as commentary on the ludicrousness of the old-wise-wizard-who-only-speaks-in-riddles trope just feels disrespectful to me.
Even if, in all honestly, it's kinda deserved. Dumbledore happened to be right about everything, it hinged on everyone in the story being, well, crazy. Which is the point of this whole fic, so... eh. Dunno.
I AM genuinely annoyed that this is not a strict single point of departure fic. (or two point, if you have one for Harry and one for Quirrell). I think it's far more fun to try to figure out where the few changes were made and why they affected the story the way they did, rather than having changes like Sirus and Scabbers show up at random for no discernable reason. Consequently I can't tell if this is his attempt to write the original Dumbledore character, in new circumstances, or if he considers himself to be changing Dumbledore's character.
I'd like to imagine that the original Dumbledore would have been more of an equal to Harry than this one is portrayed as, but I have to admit that the original Dumbledore is never shown responding to the kinds of logical issues that Harry is presenting.
I also want to get into the argument-for-cryonics that the chapter is also advocating, but it's late and I'm tired and I think I may want to do so in a separate thread.
SPOILERS BELOW
I don't like Dumbledore being portrayed as an delusional fool. This isn't because I think it's *wrong* to portray him as such (and I totally understand the author's reason for doing so). I just don't like it. I think this may be my version of the "Harry's a jerk for not liking Ron" moment. Dumbledore was a cool character, so using him mostly as commentary on the ludicrousness of the old-wise-wizard-who-only-speaks-in-riddles trope just feels disrespectful to me.
Even if, in all honestly, it's kinda deserved. Dumbledore happened to be right about everything, it hinged on everyone in the story being, well, crazy. Which is the point of this whole fic, so... eh. Dunno.
I AM genuinely annoyed that this is not a strict single point of departure fic. (or two point, if you have one for Harry and one for Quirrell). I think it's far more fun to try to figure out where the few changes were made and why they affected the story the way they did, rather than having changes like Sirus and Scabbers show up at random for no discernable reason. Consequently I can't tell if this is his attempt to write the original Dumbledore character, in new circumstances, or if he considers himself to be changing Dumbledore's character.
I'd like to imagine that the original Dumbledore would have been more of an equal to Harry than this one is portrayed as, but I have to admit that the original Dumbledore is never shown responding to the kinds of logical issues that Harry is presenting.
I also want to get into the argument-for-cryonics that the chapter is also advocating, but it's late and I'm tired and I think I may want to do so in a separate thread.
I
Iaculus
I suspect that there is a singular point of departure in this fic - and it's Voldemort. Just about every divergence, up to and including Harry's transplanted personality, can be traced to him behaving differently. In fact, especially Harry's transplanted personality - remember that he's a Horcrux? The parallels between Harry and Quirrell's thought processes may have more significance than is immediately apparent.
Also, read the author's notes - Yudkowsky acknowledges that there is a functional afterlife in the Harry Potter 'verse, creating an interesting case of a strawman arguing for the side that's actually right. That said, strawmen are generally to be avoided regardless, and I think the author was having some genuine difficulties, thanks to his own beliefs, in making Dumbledore's arguments compelling. Bad Eliezer. Bad.
Also, read the author's notes - Yudkowsky acknowledges that there is a functional afterlife in the Harry Potter 'verse, creating an interesting case of a strawman arguing for the side that's actually right. That said, strawmen are generally to be avoided regardless, and I think the author was having some genuine difficulties, thanks to his own beliefs, in making Dumbledore's arguments compelling. Bad Eliezer. Bad.
I interpret Dumbledore's 'madness' as the effect on him made by the main differences in this universe with respect to the original. I think that his 'wisdom' about how things should work, Harry, the hero, etc. has been crooked by the changes that make such wisdom incorrect where it was brilliant in the original universe.
Also, Iauculus, I very much like your argument, BUT there's another element in Harry's character which is his family and that should have nothing to do with Voldemort.
I
Iaculus
True, but even there, the point of divergence happened during Voldemort's reign. I'm not saying snakeboy planned all this, obviously, but it's possible that he was responsible for it by accident. A change in strategy, for instance, resulting in Vernon Dursley to end up as collateral damage, or a meet-cute moment between Petunia and Michael in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. The butterfly effect at work, basically.
It's a theory, anyway.
It's a theory, anyway.
He comented a couple of chapters ago that he was adding that line.
I thought it was implied (or outright said?) that Lily brewed a potion for her sister that made her beautiful, thus being able to be with someone better than Vernon. That may be an effect of Voldemort acting differently, but it seems a stretch.
I thought it was implied (or outright said?) that Lily brewed a potion for her sister that made her beautiful, thus being able to be with someone better than Vernon. That may be an effect of Voldemort acting differently, but it seems a stretch.
Green_Lantern
Staff member
Well, all we know is that a butterfly made a horse lose his nail, and it seems that Eliezer keeps changins his mind in the diverge point for the sake of desconstruction/scientific exposition.
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It isn't much of a strech that Voldemort could have caused Lily to give the potion to Petunia, maybe some action that he did made Lily try to make amends with her sister??
Green_Lantern
Staff member
I know that it isn't going by the scientific method, but it just speculation, only word of god knows the answer.
Well, yeah, and we have Word of God. Which is a pretty compelling piece of evidence.
(Granted, God could be lying to throw us off the scent. Although, it's possible there's one main point of divergence where the key story elements are framed from, and random stuff like Scabbers/Sirius Black is changed just for fun.)
(Granted, God could be lying to throw us off the scent. Although, it's possible there's one main point of divergence where the key story elements are framed from, and random stuff like Scabbers/Sirius Black is changed just for fun.)
Green_Lantern
Staff member
i was speaking about my sugestion that the "nail" lily giving the potion to petunia might be caused by Voldermort, making the "actual" origin of divergences
Green_Lantern
Staff member
VERNON IS ACTUALLY A PEGGY SUE!
...
So, is the Atlantis thing actually true? I don't remember anything about atlantis in the books.
I was referring to the Siruius/Peter thing...
I don't recall whether Atlantis was mentioned in the original series or not. I think it's sort of become a standard origin-point-of-wizardry in fanfiction. My guess is that somewhere in the 7 books, there is an offhand reference to it that might or might not be significant.
I don't recall whether Atlantis was mentioned in the original series or not. I think it's sort of become a standard origin-point-of-wizardry in fanfiction. My guess is that somewhere in the 7 books, there is an offhand reference to it that might or might not be significant.
Green_Lantern
Staff member
Like the spoon thing?
edit:
only now I have read the chapter 42... and wow, just wow.
WWOOOOOOAAAAH!!!!!!!!!
Spoiler:
This latest chapter is particularly interested because not only was it, well, really freakishly intense, but it provided not one but two or possibly three sources of "original inciting incident that drives most of the plot." My first thought was "in this universe, Lily Potter is more hateful," which could have influenced Petunia in a number of ways. Later on we see some possibilities as to how Dumbledore might be orchestrating things differently, and indeed, if he is, that would cause a LOT of things to change from the get go. Then I was reminded that the prophecy is different here too. Different prophecy = different Dumbledore = different everything."
Spoiler:
This latest chapter is particularly interested because not only was it, well, really freakishly intense, but it provided not one but two or possibly three sources of "original inciting incident that drives most of the plot." My first thought was "in this universe, Lily Potter is more hateful," which could have influenced Petunia in a number of ways. Later on we see some possibilities as to how Dumbledore might be orchestrating things differently, and indeed, if he is, that would cause a LOT of things to change from the get go. Then I was reminded that the prophecy is different here too. Different prophecy = different Dumbledore = different everything."
Green_Lantern
Staff member
I love this Author, I really do,
behold this note:
behold this note:
I think it has plenty of momentum, but as we approach the things the author is really wanting to talk about, I expect more people to feel a little alienated by Harry's mindset. I thought the last 4 chapters were absolutely fantastic, and if you've read anything else the author has wrote you'll know that this is something he's really passionate about. But I can see why others might be put off by them.
It's not Harry's mindset that annoys me, it's more that it's now a plot device for Harry to zone off into his head and tell the audience what's going on instead of having it happen. There are definitely fantasy/SF books that do an excellent job with that kind of presentation (Lovecraft was really good at it when he wasn't freaking out about black people), but I don't think it's really a strong point of this author's style. He did much better in the beginning of the fic where we quickly went back and forth between Harry's head and actual things occurring besides having a conversation partner to drive the things in Harry's head.
I completely agree with that. At other times the inner dialogue excess has annoyed me, but it felt exactly right here. I think he was able to evoke a powerful image. I guess it won't be the same for everyone.
Green_Lantern
Staff member
I completely agree with that. At other times the inner dialogue excess has annoyed me, but it felt exactly right here. I think he was able to evoke a powerful image. I guess it won't be the same for everyone.[/QUOTE]
I feel that the inner dialogue "excess" is just a part of the characterization of this Harry.
And yeah, that scene was just right.
Green_Lantern
Staff member
new chapter is up
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Chapter 47: Personhood Theory, a Harry Potter fanfic - FanFiction.Net
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Chapter 47: Personhood Theory, a Harry Potter fanfic - FanFiction.Net
Snakes are sentient?
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