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So... why the hell isn't this..y'know.. EVERYWHERE?!

I just saw a documentary on epigenetics and... man.. what a... paradigm shifting experience. Seriously.

In a nutshell, and explained by a non-expert moron, the way we saw genes wasn't the whole picture... there's this whole 'nother level of ..stuff.. proteins and other molecules and shit.. that actually CONTROL which genes are "activated" and which aren't... fair enough, that doesn't sound too out there.

This is what got to me though... these controlling stuff? What they call EPIgenetics, as in OVER the genetics... shift over time. Our actual genetic code, or its function at least, is not permanent but in a constant state of flux.... and it's changed by what we eat, drink, smoke.. and even LIVE.

People.. life EXPERIENCES have an actual, quantifiable, real effect on our GENES.

Seriously... am I the only one who finds that... just... damn.

There's this whole other plethora of jaw-dropping stuff (like the conditions of your grandfather's childhood having an effect on YOUR life expectancy) but I just had to ask the resident forum doctors about epigenetics, cause... fuck.

Also, everyone watch "Ghost in your Genes". A Nova-BBC documentary thingie which is, seriously, literally awesome. In the awe-inspiring sense.

(if you don't know how to get your hands on it, PM me and I *might* be able to solve that with a certain, uh... y'know.. PM response content )

jesus fuck every fucking thread you fucking post epigenics this epigenics that my god

I know, right?

In the future, the Human EPIgenome will be finished and then we'll be able to actually treat, cure, and prevent GENETIC diseases. Just by injecting stuff that will turn on or off particular genes.

Hell, they've already had success treating CANCER patients with epigenetic therapy.


Also, naming this new stuff "epigenetics" is clever in that everything we already used with the word "genetics" can also be adapted to epigenetics in naming, so we have epigenetic code and epigenetic therapy and Epigene Hackman.

Calleja said:

So... why the hell isn't this..y'know.. EVERYWHERE?!

I just saw a documentary on epigenetics and... man.. what a... paradigm shifting experience. Seriously.

In a nutshell, and explained by a non-expert moron, the way we saw genes wasn't the whole picture... there's this whole 'nother level of ..stuff.. proteins and other molecules and shit.. that actually CONTROL which genes are "activated" and which aren't... fair enough, that doesn't sound too out there.

This is what got to me though... these controlling stuff? What they call EPIgenetics, as in OVER the genetics... shift over time. Our actual genetic code, or its function at least, is not permanent but in a constant state of flux.... and it's changed by what we eat, drink, smoke.. and even LIVE.

People.. life EXPERIENCES have an actual, quantifiable, real effect on our GENES.

Seriously... am I the only one who finds that... just... damn.

There's this whole other plethora of jaw-dropping stuff (like the conditions of your grandfather's childhood having an effect on YOUR life expectancy) but I just had to ask the resident forum doctors about epigenetics, cause... fuck.

Also, everyone watch "Ghost in your Genes". A Nova-BBC documentary thingie which is, seriously, literally awesome. In the awe-inspiring sense.

(if you don't know how to get your hands on it, PM me and I *might* be able to solve that with a certain, uh... y'know.. PM response content )

Click to expand...

I saw the documentary but already knew a lot about this stuff. The reason it isn't everywhere is because it is cutting edge stuff. The paint is still drying on this stuff it is so new. Don't get me wrong. People have been working on this for a while but the field is only just beginning to really take off. This is wave of the future stuff too. It is going to change how people think about raising their kids and, more importantly, treating their own bodies because our life choices turn out to have a lasting impact on our grandchildren's epigenetic program.

The fact that they were able to completely prevent a genetic disorder from being inherited by 100% of a litter of rats from their genetically-diseased mother... just by looking at the mother's twin but healthy sister, identifying what was turning the sick gene off in the healthy twin, and then just giving the mother a diet rich in that....... this is exciting stuff.

Seriously, I now wish I was born 50 years later... just so I get to see this having a big impact.

So basically what you're saying is, in a few years we can have...

It's Calleja! *hug* I missed you!

Still in the process of reading your post, I just wanted to say that.

I ate a really big potato, and now my tummy kinda hurts. What can Epigenetics do for me?

Well, phil, it means that, maybe ,the sperm your body is creating will forever be affected by this potato and cause your GRANDchildren to get diabetes or something.

And I'm only sort-of-joking.

Also, HI CG!

and also, also... "Epigene Hackman"? NO ONE? REALLY?! Sheesh.

Wait... your genes change based on what you do in life? So this means your actions change your genetic code, which itself gets passed on to your offspring?

Holy Crap! You know what this means?

If generations of Irish drunkenness hasn't don't it yet, this potato ain't gunna be what tips the scale.

EPIGENETICS DISPROVED

Fuck Lamarck, this means that a lot of what Freud thought was just our psyche is actually our GENES.

Your mother didn't hug you enough as a baby? It can cause your epigenetics to block the gene that would have prevented you from getting diabetes.

Enjoy the life-long insulin doses, compliments of mommy dearest.

The voices in my head were right!


But in all seriousness, this is pretty cool

Whats with the diabetes? Is that the only thing epigenetics blocks or activates?

Another shocking moment in the documentary: they took 2 sets of identical twins, two 6 year old boys and 2 70-year old ladies, took a genetic sample from each, and compared them to their sibling.

The 6 year olds had almost the exact same gene behavior, minus a few differences here and there. The old lady twins? Their genes were behaving radically different.

Keep in mind that these are people that are almost literally clones of one another, the exact same genetic structure coming from the same fecundation of the same sperm and the same egg, being raised by the same parents.

So what once was the "nature vs nurture" debate has now become the "nature vs. nurture vs. nurtured nature" debate.


I just wrote that last one on my own. Quote me if you use it, cause it's awesome, if I say so myself.

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 PM ----------

And to answer your question, phil, I keep using diabetes cause that's the clear co-relation they found in the documentary. This old swedish town has kept detailed medical and harvest records for hundreds of years, a rarity, which resulted in one of the documentary's wildest moments.

They found direct co-relation between the diet of the grandfather (whether there was famine or plenty when he was growing up) and the probability of diabetes in the grandchildren.

Transgenerational they kept calling it. "WHAT THE HELL DID YOU EAT WHILE YOU WERE GROWING UP!?" is what I kept yelling at my grandpa when I called him immediately afterward.

oh, ok.

Well hell, that makes sense. I mean, if I go mudding with a new pair of jeans, yeah, they're going to be forever changed. But if I treat those jeans like precious gold, wash them properly and...

...oh, you said GENES.

So, I haven't seen it and I'm kinda in the dark, but.

If you live a healthy life and pass those healthy ideas down to your kids they will have less health issues. If you like to eat and drink too much and your kids eat and drink too much they will become drunk diabetics. Right?

Am I missing something or is this really not that new? What you do in your life, good or bad, affects your life in a good or bad way.

I think you are over-stating things. Emotions and hugs are not going to change "genes." Your genetic code stay relatively intact throughout your life. You have error-checking enzymes that ensures your code stays relatively the same.

Epigenetics is simply the turning off/on of genes which in turn changes a phenotype.

While interesting, I think that genetic recombination with viruses may be the way of the future with genetic therapies. At least, if they can prevent it from causing cancer.

Michael Crichton would have a field day with this 'un.

Interesting stuff, though I must admit it goes a little over my BA, hasn't-studied-biology-in-almost-a-decade noggin.

OH MY GOD HE IS ALIVE!!!!!

And this is pretty trippy-awesome!

Calleja said:

So what once was the "nature vs nurture" debate has now become the "nature vs. nurture vs. nurtured nature" debate.


I just wrote that last one on my own. Quote me if you use it, cause it's awesome, if I say so myself.

Click to expand...

I will do so... but only if you will promote my new verb, which is "schtoinking", as in "I schtoinked your sister last night. Hope she's on protection".

Considering your reputation as our resident "schtoinker", I expect to have this word in the Merriam-Webster by... next Monday.

I'm waiting for the EpiGenPen.

TeKeo said:

I'm waiting for the EpiGenPen.

Click to expand...

The what now?

My... ALLERGIES!!!!! *stabs self with EGP*

My GOD people why aren't we talking about PLASMIDS and GENE BANKS right now

Pyew pyew LIGHTNING.

thank you gusto.

I'll take the organic flamethrower. You guys can have the bee-hands.

*Looks at the coke he's drinking*
*Looks at the ingredients of the coke he's drinking.*
*shrugs*

Sorry kids, granddaddy's thirsty here and now.

*Poisons future generations*

What, genes change based on environmental factors... no way...

drawn_inward said:

I think you are over-stating things. Emotions and hugs are not going to change \"genes.\" Your genetic code stay relatively intact throughout your life. You have error-checking enzymes that ensures your code stays relatively the same.

Click to expand...

He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.

Hey baby, you can walk away, but remember, you're not just turning me down, you could be hurting future generations of people.

Won't somebody think of the children?

Will watch it, the subject of manipulating one´s genes and its affecting your offspring is pretty interesting.

Singularity.EXE said:

*Looks at the coke he's drinking*
*Looks at the ingredients of the coke he's drinking.*
*shrugs*

Sorry kids, granddaddy's thirsty here and now.

*Poisons future generations*

Click to expand...

This worries me too. It kinda motivates me to try and do away with soda. At least try and embrace coffee instead. Ugh.

Glad I'm adopting, so I can say fuck it all! Wheeeee!

escushion said:

Glad I'm adopting, so I can say fuck it all! Wheeeee!

Click to expand...

Then you have to deal with someone else's genetic fuck-ups.

FUCK YES BEE HANDS

Jake;270003][quote=drawn_inward said:

I think you are over-stating things. Emotions and hugs are not going to change \"genes.\" Your genetic code stay relatively intact throughout your life. You have error-checking enzymes that ensures your code stays relatively the same.

Click to expand...

He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.

I guess I could use a hug now.

drawn_inward;270154][quote=Jake;270003][quote=drawn_inward said:

I think you are over-stating things. Emotions and hugs are not going to change \"genes.\" Your genetic code stay relatively intact throughout your life. You have error-checking enzymes that ensures your code stays relatively the same.

Click to expand...

He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/quote]

Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.

I guess I could use a hug now.[/QUOTE]

It changes the degree and/or likelihood that a gene is expressed, not whether it is there or not. So a rat that is groomed a lot by its mother produces a chemical cascade in the pup that causes methyl groups that bind around the DNA to change its ability to express (I think in this case it causes the methyl groups to unbind, allowing gene expression). This in turn allows the pup as an adult to handle stress better and also treats its own pups more favorably as well. Note that this is not a learned response from the dam but a physical change in the expression of a gene that changes the chemical signals in the brain, which changes both the health and the behavior of the pups (and grand-pups) in a significant way. These epigenetic modifications are found to influence multiple generations that are not all yet understood, meaning they ARE heritable but in sometimes complex ways.

MindDetective;270161][quote=drawn_inward;270154][quote=Jake;270003][quote=drawn_inward said:

I think you are over-stating things. Emotions and hugs are not going to change \"genes.\" Your genetic code stay relatively intact throughout your life. You have error-checking enzymes that ensures your code stays relatively the same.

Click to expand...

He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/quote]

Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.

I guess I could use a hug now.[/QUOTE]

It changes the degree and/or likelihood that a gene is expressed, not whether it is there or not. So a rat that is groomed a lot by its mother produces a chemical cascade in the pup that causes methyl groups that bind around the DNA to change its ability to express (I think in this case it causes the methyl groups to unbind, allowing gene expression). This in turn allows the pup as an adult to handle stress better and also treats its own pups more favorably as well. Note that this is not a learned response from the dam but a physical change in the expression of a gene that changes the chemical signals in the brain, which changes both the health and the behavior of the pups (and grand-pups) in a significant way. These epigenetic modifications are found to influence multiple generations that are not all yet understood, meaning they ARE heritable but in sometimes complex ways.[/QUOTE]

This is interesting. However, there are folks out there who were treated like shit when they were kids, but go on to treat their kids great. So, how much of these epigenetic changes can one change by therapy and/or will/determination?

It's interesting for sure.

drawn_inward said:

This is interesting. However, there are folks out there who were treated like shit when they were kids, but go on to treat their kids great. So, how much of these epigenetic changes can one change by therapy and/or w It'sill/determination?

It's interesting for sure.

Click to expand...

You're not getting it. This is not a case of "they were hit as kids, so they hit their own kids". It's a case of "they were under stress as children, and those specific stresses not only effected the way their genes expressed, but also effected the way their children's genes expressed, and possibly their grandchildren as well."

Epigenetics is the possibility that your phenotype may be different because your grandfather was malnourished, or worked in a coal mine, or took good care of himself, or... whatever, even though his genotype, and the genes he passed down, remained unchanged by what happened to him in life.

figmentPez;270209][quote=drawn_inward said:

This is interesting. However, there are folks out there who were treated like shit when they were kids, but go on to treat their kids great. So, how much of these epigenetic changes can one change by therapy and/or w It'sill/determination?

It's interesting for sure.

Click to expand...

You're not getting it. This is not a case of "they were hit as kids, so they hit their own kids". It's a case of "they were under stress as children, and those specific stresses not only effected the way their genes expressed, but also effected the way their children's genes expressed, and possibly their grandchildren as well."

Epigenetics is the possibility that your phenotype may be different because your grandfather was malnourished, or worked in a coal mine, or took good care of himself, or... whatever, even though his genotype, and the genes he passed down, remained unchanged by what happened to him in life.[/QUOTE]

This is right. Also, it appears that the environment can affect gene expression later, meaning possible epigenetic therapies (imagine a therapy that changes how you perceive stress!!) or behavioral therapies that can release those methyl groups so that genes can express better. It is a way of turning genes on and off (in degrees, like a tuner) in response to the environment. This can have obvious benefits. If a parent experiences intense stress, it allows for transmission of traits that prepare offspring for stress without changing the genetic code. It does NOT mean that children will hit because parents will hit. It is more general than that. It will change the sensitivity to stressors, inducing a different biological reaction which in turn affects behavior, although it will do so in a variety of ways.

Iaculus said:

I'll take the organic flamethrower. You guys can have the bee-hands.

Click to expand...

Already got one. Though I need to load it a few hours early by eating pea soup and rye bread... and I need someone to flip a lighter.

I think I need to sit on this for a bit. It's just not connecting with me. You'd think with all the molecular genetics/biology courses I've had, I would eat this up. I understand the genetic side of things, but not the environmental. Damn it. I'll go watch the Nova ep.

drawn_inward said:

I think I need to sit on this for a bit. It's just not connecting with me. You'd think with all the molecular genetics/biology courses I've had, I would eat this up. I understand the genetic side of things, but not the environmental. Damn it. I'll go watch the Nova ep.

Click to expand...

From what I remember of my college biology course, a lot of this has to do with the cytoplasm. Genes make proteins, but which genes are actually used is determined by the cytoplasm and other factors. For instance, maternal DNA is favored over paternal DNA, because all the cytoplasm in a cell comes from the egg, and it somehow recognizes and prefers the DNA it started with. I'm sure that we've only scratched the surface of what can influence cytoplasm. (Heck, we could even find out that sub-atomic interactions, that don't change mollecular structure, can can influence genes.)

Also, keep in mind that the human protenome is still being explored. Scientists may have mapped the human genome, but they have yet to catalog all the different proteins made by all the various gene combinations. Each gene makes a protein, but proteins can be combined with or alter other proteins, as well as promote or inhibit the expression of genes... and all the possible interactions quickly become very complex.

Vytamindi said:

My... ALLERGIES!!!!! *stabs self with EGP*

Click to expand...

That's what I was going for!

Does this mean that Cal's children will be born with Mop-tops and Liverpudian accents?

figmentPez;270343][quote=drawn_inward said:

I think I need to sit on this for a bit. It's just not connecting with me. You'd think with all the molecular genetics/biology courses I've had, I would eat this up. I understand the genetic side of things, but not the environmental. Damn it. I'll go watch the Nova ep.

Click to expand...

From what I remember of my college biology course, a lot of this has to do with the cytoplasm. Genes make proteins, but which genes are actually used is determined by the cytoplasm and other factors. For instance, maternal DNA is favored over paternal DNA, because all the cytoplasm in a cell comes from the egg, and it somehow recognizes and prefers the DNA it started with. I'm sure that we've only scratched the surface of what can influence cytoplasm. (Heck, we could even find out that sub-atomic interactions, that don't change mollecular structure, can can influence genes.)

Also, keep in mind that the human protenome is still being explored. Scientists may have mapped the human genome, but they have yet to catalog all the different proteins made by all the various gene combinations. Each gene makes a protein, but proteins can be combined with or alter other proteins, as well as promote or inhibit the expression of genes... and all the possible interactions quickly become very complex.[/QUOTE]
Your first post:

This post: :bush:

Genes get turned on and off throughout your life... the genetic code is still an unalterable foundation you inherit from your ancestors which is hard as fuck to change... BUT think of your genetic code as the HARDWARE and the EPIgenetic code as the SOFTWARE.

You may be stuck with a shitty video card that makes you colorblind, but this means someone may come up with a bad-ass driver for that video card that allows you to see colors again.


That's the right analogy for this crowd, right?

Jake said:

Your first post:

This post: :bush:

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm definitely not a biologist. What did I get horribly wrong?

Soliloquy said:

Wait... your genes change based on what you do in life? So this means your actions change your genetic code, which itself gets passed on to your offspring?

Holy Crap! You know what this means?

Click to expand...

I was thinking more:

Calleja said:

Genes get turned on and off throughout your life... the genetic code is still an unalterable foundation you inherit from your ancestors which is hard as fuck to change... BUT think of your genetic code as the HARDWARE and the EPIgenetic code as the SOFTWARE.

You may be stuck with a shitty video card that makes you colorblind, but this means someone may come up with a bad-ass driver for that video card that allows you to see colors again.


That's the right analogy for this crowd, right?

Click to expand...

I would have gone with the Ipod touch 2nd generation. It had hardware bluetooth capability from the start, but we weren't able to use it until it was unlocked.

Yeah, that works too. Although it also works the other way around, is what I'm saying, as in they've successfully treated cancer patients with epigene therapy that actually turned their anti-tumor genes on.

Of course, it's way more complicated than "anti-tumor genes", but that's the jist of it.

MindDetective;270161][quote=drawn_inward;270154][quote=Jake;270003][quote=drawn_inward said:

I think you are over-stating things. Emotions and hugs are not going to change \"genes.\" Your genetic code stay relatively intact throughout your life. You have error-checking enzymes that ensures your code stays relatively the same.

Click to expand...

He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/quote]

Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.

I guess I could use a hug now.[/quote]

It changes the degree and/or likelihood that a gene is expressed, not whether it is there or not. So a rat that is groomed a lot by its mother produces a chemical cascade in the pup that causes methyl groups that bind around the DNA to change its ability to express (I think in this case it causes the methyl groups to unbind, allowing gene expression). This in turn allows the pup as an adult to handle stress better and also treats its own pups more favorably as well. Note that this is not a learned response from the dam but a physical change in the expression of a gene that changes the chemical signals in the brain, which changes both the health and the behavior of the pups (and grand-pups) in a significant way. These epigenetic modifications are found to influence multiple generations that are not all yet understood, meaning they ARE heritable but in sometimes complex ways.[/QUOTE]

Sounds more like an environmental factor then a genetic one the way you describe it (the pups don't need to be the rat's genetic offspring etc.)



But i wonder, how would a hole in the head effects your genes, except making you into Wolverine: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8293731.stm