Glad I'm adopting, so I can say fuck it all! Wheeeee!
Holy Fuck. Epigenetics.
- Thread starter Calleja
- Start date
- Status
S
Singularity.EXE
Then you have to deal with someone else's genetic fuck-ups.
He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.
I guess I could use a hug now.
He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/quote]
Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.
I guess I could use a hug now.[/QUOTE]
It changes the degree and/or likelihood that a gene is expressed, not whether it is there or not. So a rat that is groomed a lot by its mother produces a chemical cascade in the pup that causes methyl groups that bind around the DNA to change its ability to express (I think in this case it causes the methyl groups to unbind, allowing gene expression). This in turn allows the pup as an adult to handle stress better and also treats its own pups more favorably as well. Note that this is not a learned response from the dam but a physical change in the expression of a gene that changes the chemical signals in the brain, which changes both the health and the behavior of the pups (and grand-pups) in a significant way. These epigenetic modifications are found to influence multiple generations that are not all yet understood, meaning they ARE heritable but in sometimes complex ways.
He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/quote]
Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.
I guess I could use a hug now.[/QUOTE]
It changes the degree and/or likelihood that a gene is expressed, not whether it is there or not. So a rat that is groomed a lot by its mother produces a chemical cascade in the pup that causes methyl groups that bind around the DNA to change its ability to express (I think in this case it causes the methyl groups to unbind, allowing gene expression). This in turn allows the pup as an adult to handle stress better and also treats its own pups more favorably as well. Note that this is not a learned response from the dam but a physical change in the expression of a gene that changes the chemical signals in the brain, which changes both the health and the behavior of the pups (and grand-pups) in a significant way. These epigenetic modifications are found to influence multiple generations that are not all yet understood, meaning they ARE heritable but in sometimes complex ways.[/QUOTE]
This is interesting. However, there are folks out there who were treated like shit when they were kids, but go on to treat their kids great. So, how much of these epigenetic changes can one change by therapy and/or will/determination?
It's interesting for sure.
figmentPez
Staff member
You're not getting it. This is not a case of "they were hit as kids, so they hit their own kids". It's a case of "they were under stress as children, and those specific stresses not only effected the way their genes expressed, but also effected the way their children's genes expressed, and possibly their grandchildren as well."
Epigenetics is the possibility that your phenotype may be different because your grandfather was malnourished, or worked in a coal mine, or took good care of himself, or... whatever, even though his genotype, and the genes he passed down, remained unchanged by what happened to him in life.
You're not getting it. This is not a case of "they were hit as kids, so they hit their own kids". It's a case of "they were under stress as children, and those specific stresses not only effected the way their genes expressed, but also effected the way their children's genes expressed, and possibly their grandchildren as well."
Epigenetics is the possibility that your phenotype may be different because your grandfather was malnourished, or worked in a coal mine, or took good care of himself, or... whatever, even though his genotype, and the genes he passed down, remained unchanged by what happened to him in life.[/QUOTE]
This is right. Also, it appears that the environment can affect gene expression later, meaning possible epigenetic therapies (imagine a therapy that changes how you perceive stress!!) or behavioral therapies that can release those methyl groups so that genes can express better. It is a way of turning genes on and off (in degrees, like a tuner) in response to the environment. This can have obvious benefits. If a parent experiences intense stress, it allows for transmission of traits that prepare offspring for stress without changing the genetic code. It does NOT mean that children will hit because parents will hit. It is more general than that. It will change the sensitivity to stressors, inducing a different biological reaction which in turn affects behavior, although it will do so in a variety of ways.
North_Ranger
Staff member
Already got one. Though I need to load it a few hours early by eating pea soup and rye bread... and I need someone to flip a lighter.
I think I need to sit on this for a bit. It's just not connecting with me. You'd think with all the molecular genetics/biology courses I've had, I would eat this up. I understand the genetic side of things, but not the environmental. Damn it. I'll go watch the Nova ep.
figmentPez
Staff member
From what I remember of my college biology course, a lot of this has to do with the cytoplasm. Genes make proteins, but which genes are actually used is determined by the cytoplasm and other factors. For instance, maternal DNA is favored over paternal DNA, because all the cytoplasm in a cell comes from the egg, and it somehow recognizes and prefers the DNA it started with. I'm sure that we've only scratched the surface of what can influence cytoplasm. (Heck, we could even find out that sub-atomic interactions, that don't change mollecular structure, can can influence genes.)
Also, keep in mind that the human protenome is still being explored. Scientists may have mapped the human genome, but they have yet to catalog all the different proteins made by all the various gene combinations. Each gene makes a protein, but proteins can be combined with or alter other proteins, as well as promote or inhibit the expression of genes... and all the possible interactions quickly become very complex.
That's what I was going for!
W
WolfOfOdin
Does this mean that Cal's children will be born with Mop-tops and Liverpudian accents?
From what I remember of my college biology course, a lot of this has to do with the cytoplasm. Genes make proteins, but which genes are actually used is determined by the cytoplasm and other factors. For instance, maternal DNA is favored over paternal DNA, because all the cytoplasm in a cell comes from the egg, and it somehow recognizes and prefers the DNA it started with. I'm sure that we've only scratched the surface of what can influence cytoplasm. (Heck, we could even find out that sub-atomic interactions, that don't change mollecular structure, can can influence genes.)
Also, keep in mind that the human protenome is still being explored. Scientists may have mapped the human genome, but they have yet to catalog all the different proteins made by all the various gene combinations. Each gene makes a protein, but proteins can be combined with or alter other proteins, as well as promote or inhibit the expression of genes... and all the possible interactions quickly become very complex.[/QUOTE]
Your first post:
This post: :bush:
Genes get turned on and off throughout your life... the genetic code is still an unalterable foundation you inherit from your ancestors which is hard as fuck to change... BUT think of your genetic code as the HARDWARE and the EPIgenetic code as the SOFTWARE.
You may be stuck with a shitty video card that makes you colorblind, but this means someone may come up with a bad-ass driver for that video card that allows you to see colors again.
That's the right analogy for this crowd, right?
You may be stuck with a shitty video card that makes you colorblind, but this means someone may come up with a bad-ass driver for that video card that allows you to see colors again.
That's the right analogy for this crowd, right?
figmentPez
Staff member
Yeah, I'm definitely not a biologist. What did I get horribly wrong?Your first post:
This post: :bush:
I was thinking more:Wait... your genes change based on what you do in life? So this means your actions change your genetic code, which itself gets passed on to your offspring?
Holy Crap! You know what this means?
G
GeneralOrder24
I would have gone with the Ipod touch 2nd generation. It had hardware bluetooth capability from the start, but we weren't able to use it until it was unlocked.
Yeah, that works too. Although it also works the other way around, is what I'm saying, as in they've successfully treated cancer patients with epigene therapy that actually turned their anti-tumor genes on.
Of course, it's way more complicated than "anti-tumor genes", but that's the jist of it.
Of course, it's way more complicated than "anti-tumor genes", but that's the jist of it.
He's talking about epigenetic alteration, not changes in base sequence. And don't be so sure emotions and hugs won't have epigenetic effects. It was recently found that social isolation in rats alters gene expression leading to increased tumor growth.[/quote]
Yeah, I get that. I just don't see how this affects inheritable traits.
I guess I could use a hug now.[/quote]
It changes the degree and/or likelihood that a gene is expressed, not whether it is there or not. So a rat that is groomed a lot by its mother produces a chemical cascade in the pup that causes methyl groups that bind around the DNA to change its ability to express (I think in this case it causes the methyl groups to unbind, allowing gene expression). This in turn allows the pup as an adult to handle stress better and also treats its own pups more favorably as well. Note that this is not a learned response from the dam but a physical change in the expression of a gene that changes the chemical signals in the brain, which changes both the health and the behavior of the pups (and grand-pups) in a significant way. These epigenetic modifications are found to influence multiple generations that are not all yet understood, meaning they ARE heritable but in sometimes complex ways.[/QUOTE]
Sounds more like an environmental factor then a genetic one the way you describe it (the pups don't need to be the rat's genetic offspring etc.)
But i wonder, how would a hole in the head effects your genes, except making you into Wolverine: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8293731.stm
- Status