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I'd like to start an on-going thread on news articles found that seem beyond far-fetched, or report propaganda.

Here's my first article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/12/us-iran-nuclear-israel-usa-idUSBRE87B03920120812

Iran has stepped up work to develop a nuclear warhead, Israeli newspapers said on Sunday, citing officials in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government and leaked U.S. intelligence.

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I call bull on this, and the whole Iranian nuclear situation. It just seems to me like propaganda excuses to ok airstrikes on Iran's nuclear facilities.

I really hope its bull. I'm not super confident in Israel and Iran remaining at peace if it's not.

I think both countries are huge propaganda, hypocritical powerhouses - each wanting the world to see it as the "guy whose always picked on". The truth is both states are bullies who need radical reformations. Iran with its backward treatment of women and super isolationist bull-crap, and Israel with it's propagation that it's a peaceful state yet commits more human atrocities and black ops annually than all the Nazi crimes combined.

I was with you until that last bit.

SpecialKO said:

I was with you until that last bit.

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Same here. It would have been easier to point to Israel's horrible treatment of Palestinians as an example of how they're not always the good guys. Accusing them of more "more human atrocities... than the Nazis" is quite a statement.

hahahaha holy shit you just said Israel is worse than the Nazis

also you can just straight up say "bullshit" you don't have to bleep it out

but mostly the first part, hahahaha

So, SilentBob, are you a Holocaust denier, or do you actually believe the Israelis kill more than 11 million people annually?

Hey, we should let him respond/clarify before we lump him in with Holocaust deniers.

Tress said:

Hey, we should let him respond/clarify before we lump him in with Holocaust deniers.

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You beat me to it. He might have just been being hyperbolic.

Apologies if so, I read that as a statement of fact. It was just such an amazing assertion, I had to ask.

Cajungal said:

You beat me to it. He might have just been being hyperbolic.

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I was and I'm sorry for being over-dramatic about it (invoking Godwin's law), but my stance is still very much that Israel is not a good guy state. That said, I think I'm allowed to openly say I disagree with a government and state. I have nothing against Jewish people or culture; nor am I a holocaust denier. I hate how we're so spoon fed propaganda by American media that you can't say one bad thing about Israel without being labeled an anti-Semite.

Drifter, I don't know what I ever did to you but so far you've labeled me a rape-apologist and now a holocaust denier. You can knock it off any time now.

So again, my bad guys. I'll keep Nazis out of it next time.

Drifter's all right. I just think people were shocked and weren't sure of your meaning.

Cajungal said:

Drifter's all right. I just think people were shocked and weren't sure of your meaning.

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I agree I should have been more clear and less hasty.

I don't believe Israel should be immune from criticism, but I feel that its harder to empathize with them when we don't have to worry about people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up in public places. We went to two wars after one terrorist attack. They've had a ton.
And I will admit that I am jewish.

My personal stance on Israel is that it's the least bad choice in a region full of nothing but bad choices... and unfortunately, we really do need a proper ally in the region for strategic reasons. Israel isn't a saintly society but they are a hell of a lot better than any of the alternatives.

Sorry for jumping to conclusions and being a jerk about it, I should have known better.

*shrug* It was unnecessary and baiting, though.
"more atrocities than the Nazi's" is just the same as "He has more money than Bill Gates" or "Smarter than Hawking". I see them as perfectly acceptable hyperboles. They all used to be perfectly acceptable here (as hyperbole, of course), and now, any time anyone says anything that could be construed as something negative, the context is completely ignored and the boards go for the orst possible angle. In this case, it didn't get out of hand, but it's the exact same thing as we've seen in several other threads.
People, if someone says something you look at and go "whoa! He's evil!", he probably isn't. Consider hyperbole/exaggeration and see if it fits better than "this guy just said he hated America/Freedom/Women/...! Kill him!". Ask for an explanation, instead of goign straight for the jugular.

That said, Israel is a horrible state in some ways, with their walling off the Palestinian areas and not allowing any humanitarian aid in, for example. Yes, they're under constant threat and so on, but Israeli policy regarding Palestinia is responsible for hundreds of innocent deaths as well.

I always fail to understand why we, the United States, are so pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian. Do the Palestinians use some aspects of terrorist actions? Undoubtedly. But aside from the idiocy of Hamas targeting civilians, most Palestinians are downtrodden and forced to suffer many indignities by a huge and aggressive neighbor state. "We really like your house. Get out. It's ours now."

But do remember all the times Israel had to fend off 4 to 6 aggressive neighbors. For their first 40 or so years they were facing constant threat of annihilation.

sixpackshaker said:

But do remember all the times Israel had to fend off 4 to 6 aggressive neighbors. For their first 40 or so years they were facing constant threat of annihilation.

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Yup. And at that time I could see sticking with them. But this is like the little kid who gets beat up throughout elementary school so we help him out. Then he hits a growth spurt and becomes the dickhead in high school...and we're still sticking with them.

Just because they had to fight 40 years ago does not absolve them of their evil actions of today.

I'd say though that considering all the Arabs that peacefully live in Israel with the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, the Palestinians have basically done this to themselves by being terrorists.

blotsfan said:

I'd say though that considering all the Arabs that peacefully live in Israel with the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, the Palestinians have basically done this to themselves by being terrorists.

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Not all Palestinians are terrorists, any more than all Americans are [insert stereotype here].

No, not all of them are terrorists, but they elected the people who were terrorists to run their government.

blotsfan said:

No, not all of them are terrorists, but they elected the people who were terrorists to run their government.

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Arafat and Rabin could've had peace many years ago, if Rabin hadn't been shot by an Israeli terrorist.

Yes he was an israeli terrorist. However, Israel and the Jewish people don't think fondly of him. His actions were not supported by the government.

blotsfan said:

Yes he was an israeli terrorist. However, Israel and the Jewish people don't think fondly of him. His actions were not supported by the government.

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Implying you believe Arafat and his successors did support Palestinian terrorists. Which may sound good in American media, but is pretty much not the case.

I was more referring to Hamas, which did the attacks and is now in charge of the Palestinians.

Dave said:

I always fail to understand why we, the United States, are so pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian. Do the Palestinians use some aspects of terrorist actions? Undoubtedly. But aside from the idiocy of Hamas targeting civilians, most Palestinians are downtrodden and forced to suffer many indignities by a huge and aggressive neighbor state. "We really like your house. Get out. It's ours now."

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The religious right in this country sees Israel as an ally in some kind of holy war against Islam. That's especially funny since most of those same conservative asshats are anti-Semitic themselves. Thus, the right supports Israel unconditionally as long as they kill some of those suspicious-looking brown people they hate so much.

Bubble181 said:

That said, Israel is a horrible state in some ways, with their walling off the Palestinian areas and not allowing any humanitarian aid in, for example. Yes, they're under constant threat and so on, but Israeli policy regarding Palestinia is responsible for hundreds of innocent deaths as well.

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Ya, those two other countries that also have borders (ie: Jordan and Egypt) are totally innocent in this, and ship in all kinds of aid... oh wait.

It's in the interest of the other states around there (not Israel) to keep the Palestinians as pariahs. And they have.

Eriol said:

Ya, those two other countries that also have borders (ie: Jordan and Egypt) are totally innocent in this, and ship in all kinds of aid... oh wait.

It's in the interest of the other states around there (not Israel) to keep the Palestinians as pariahs. And they have.

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While true, to a point, the border between Egypt and Gaza is sealed off by the Israeli army, and Jordania doesn't really border on the Palestinian area (there's the Jordan in between, which is patrolled by, you guessed it, the Israeli navy). The Jordan banks and Eastern Jerusalem are fairly ok, though; Gaza has been pretty much sealed in for years now. Ships trying to bring in aid are regularly turned back.

It boils down to one question - do you believe Israel has the right to exist?

Bubble181 said:

While true, to a point, the border between Egypt and Gaza is sealed off by the Israeli army, and Jordania doesn't really border on the Palestinian area (there's the Jordan in between, which is patrolled by, you guessed it, the Israeli navy). The Jordan banks and Eastern Jerusalem are fairly ok, though; Gaza has been pretty much sealed in for years now. Ships trying to bring in aid are regularly turned back.

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It's actually run by Egypt now: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122404.stm It's a one-liner in there, but I'm sure you can look it up elsewhere. While for quite a while Israel did run it, for years now it's been run by Egypt.

So basically, if Egypt wanted to have an open border with Gaza, they could. Israel wouldn't stop them. And IIRC they did a while back. And then DAYS later they stopped that because of weapons smuggling (mass amounts).

blotsfan said:

I was more referring to Hamas, which did the attacks and is now in charge of the Palestinians.

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Keyword NOW. They haven't always been, so which is it... Are they in this situation because they are governed by a terrorist organization, or are they governed by a terrorist organization because they have been in this situation for so long.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

hahahaha holy shit you just said Israel is worse than the Nazis

also you can just straight up say "bullshit" you don't have to bleep it out

but mostly the first part, hahahaha

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Sorry, I don't mean to instigate, but aren't you the guy who started a thread to 'ban all guns" like that's a legitimate and realistic option? Don't be so snide.

GasBandit said:

It boils down to one question - do you believe Israel has the right to exist?

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Two sides to that question, I suppose...

They won all (what it is seven?) civil wars that resulted since its declaration in 1949. Isn't that by definition how a new state is formed?

However, that does not excuse the Israeli government from the deplorable acts which it has committed in the name of their independence towards the Palestinian people. For me it boils down to where my tax dollars are going. I disagree with how much the US spends to keep Israel afloat.

Silent Bob said:

Sorry, I don't mean to instigate, but aren't you the guy who started a thread to 'ban all guns" like that's a legitimate and realistic option? Don't be so snide.

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This is Charlie. His is a carefully crafted personality and visage designed to incite as many people as possible to want to punch him in the face. Repeatedly.

GasBandit said:

It boils down to one question - do you believe Israel has the right to exist?

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"Israel has a right to exist" and "Israel has no right to violate the human rights of Palestinian " are not mutually exclusive statements.

It is the official stated position of the palestinians and a great many nations in the area that Israel is basically an illegal entity forced into existence and maintained by western devils. If Israel has a right to exist, then a great, great share of the blame for the plight of the palestinians rests on the neighbors of Israel for deliberately exacerbating said plight, so as to continue casting Israel as the villain. If the palestinians had simply been taken in, absorbed and assimilated by the various arab states which instead keep them penned up against Israel and copiously provided with RPGs and mortars, this would be a very different discussion.

There is no if. The plight has been manipulated over the decades by various Arab states for the sole benefit of keeping those in power in power. There is no motivation to improve the plight of the common man if all one has to do is shout "Israel!" and the shrieking masses forget all about the food and electricity shortages for a few more months.

not to derail the Israel chat but the "ban all guns" was a knee-jerk thing to the Aurora shooting, but I still stand by that it's better than what we have now

Charlie Don't Surf said:

not to derail the Israel chat but the "ban all guns" was a knee-jerk thing to the Aurora shooting, but I still stand by that it's better than what we have now

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You realize this is a different thread right?

silent bob brought it up a few posts ago saying it was worse than his jewish hitlers comment, and I was too lazy to quote

carry on then.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

silent bob brought it up a few posts ago saying it was worse than his jewish hitlers comment, and I was too lazy to quote

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I didn't say it was worse, but just as ridiculous. Wow, you're a jackass.

Silent Bob said:

Wow, you're a jackass.

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You're officially initiated into halforums now.

Welcome to the family, Silent Bob!