I don't think PA's Gabe is a Transphobic Bigot.

Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
GasBandit said:
I also roll my eyes whenever the term "cis" is bandied about as if it's supposed to be an epithet or disqualification.
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So much this. I support trans causes, and I understand that they may often be incredibly complex. I do not like the discussion starting and ending with what feels like a disqualifying slur thrown at me.
 
Espy

Espy

Well I missed that.

Huh. Sounds like someone got their undies in a wad over a pretty general and non-insulting discussion.
 
Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
There's something in that crowd that seems particularly prone to anger though, far more than any marginzalized group I have seen in a while. It's one of the groups of activists I find myself getting angry with regularly, even though I supprot their causes.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
There's something in that crowd that seems particularly prone to anger though, far more than any marginzalized group I have seen in a while. It's one of the groups of activists I find myself getting angry with regularly, even though I supprot their causes.
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They have a right / reason to be angry and are treated far worse than most of the rest of the GLBQT spectrum, including really poorly by a lot of people claiming to be their allies.

also Gabe is a piece of shit for everything he's said regarding this
 
Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
I've only read his side of the story in this, and what it looks like to me is that, like most people, he's not trans-bigoted, he's just trans-ignorant. Maybe I'm misreading it, but the reaction he's gotten from these people read like some straight SRSter cis-bigotry, and self-righteous anger of the sake of anger.
 
DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't support slurs or death threats, but this is a dumb statement. You can't dismiss a group of people because they have a shitty subgroup.
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:facepalm:
Did you stop to consider I was talking about the idiots trying to argue with him, and not everyone? Do I have to spell it out for you that explicitly?
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
I've only read his side of the story in this, and what it looks like to me is that, like most people, he's not trans-bigoted, he's just trans-ignorant. Maybe I'm misreading it, but the reaction he's gotten from these people read like some straight SRSter cis-bigotry, and self-righteous anger of the sake of anger.
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He said straight up "you can only be a woman if you have a vagina", that's pretty bold faced anti-trans, as blatantly as you can get. I don't think I even paraphrased the quote there.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

For the moment, let's all pretend that I don't know the comments/incident he is referring to (because let's be clear...I don't know about any of it), but the blurb that he wrote at the above linked page? I have absolutely no problem with it. It is rational and I completely understand where he is coming from. If anything, it sounds like he's the one being persecuted the most.
Charlie Don't Surf said:
He said straight up "you can only be a woman if you have a vagina", that's pretty bold faced anti-trans, as blatantly as you can get.
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Completely depends on what you mean when you say, "woman." Some people identify as women, even though they are not female. Other people use the terms interchangeably not because they are hostile to the inter/trans community, but because they've really never had to deal with the distinction before. For them, it has just never been necessary.

--Patrick
 
Reverent-one

Reverent-one

Charlie Don't Surf said:
He said straight up "you can only be a woman if you have a vagina", that's pretty bold faced anti-trans, as blatantly as you can get. I don't think I even paraphrased the quote there.
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Yes, you did. What he said was he thought all woman had vaginas. Then:

Gabe said:
It was pointed out to me that not all women have vaginas and I will admit right here in front of everyone that this came as a big shock to me.
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Sounds like ignorance and repeating the generalized facts about gender we learn as kids to me. Especially since he said he apologized for his comment when he realized this.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I hadn't even heard anything about the "female masturbation game" thing, He's cherry picking the least-worst thing he said to make himself look good, because of course he is. Here's another side of the story with more stupid shitty things that stupid shitty man said:

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=10995

good quote:
His constant reiteration of the fact that he feels all women have vaginas, and his disrespectful comparison of gender identity being the same as asking people to call him Batman is at complete odds with the sort of ‘compassion’ he is trying to show his ‘friend’ Sophie in her email. You don’t get to say that you don’t care about genitals and you don’t want to know about people’s body parts, but then use the presence or lack of genitalia to define what someone’s gender is and make sweeping statements about the qualifications that have to be satisfied before you’ll think someone is a woman.
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Also, good on them:

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013/06/21/why-we-are-not-showing-gone-home-at-pax/
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Charlie Don't Surf said:
Also, good on them:

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013/06/21/why-we-are-not-showing-gone-home-at-pax/
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It's entirely their call and appropriate to decide not to appear at a venue that they don't think shares their beliefs.

But when I start reading passive, meek dreck like "we don't feel welcome or comfortable" in what is a business endeavor, you can fuck right the hell off, get hit by a train, drag for 30 miles and get fed to the crows. The right thing to say is "given their positions, we don't see it in our best interest to attend." Not "boo hoo you made our pretend vaginas hurt."

Playing the victim card is as odious as playing the race card. Say you're not going because you think what HE said is wrong, not because YOUR feelings are wounded.

Now before you start calling ME some kind of cis-whatever, bear in mind I've got nothing against transgenders. Someone deciding to live their lives as if they were a woman does not break my leg or pick my pocket, so go wild. But it's dumb to think that a program meant to depict female masturbation should involve yanking a dick in the name of the transgender cause.
 
Silent Bob

Silent Bob

Necronic said:
There's something in that crowd that seems particularly prone to anger though, far more than any marginzalized group I have seen in a while. It's one of the groups of activists I find myself getting angry with regularly, even though I supprot their causes.
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It's the violent clash of testosterone and estrogen.

:hide:
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

also oh my god you fucking stupid crying babies (not specific to halforums, just the world), cisgender isn't an insult. It's literally just that you are the gender you were born as. It's the same as heterosexual to homosexual, etc. I'm aware that two wrongs don't make a right and throwing it around LIKE a slur is a little childish, but no one is going to call you "cissy" and beat you to death with a fire extinguisher (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7332066&page=1)
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Charlie Don't Surf said:
also oh my god you fucking stupid crying babies (not specific to halforums, just the world), cisgender isn't an insult. It's literally just that you are the gender you were born as. It's the same as heterosexual to homosexual, etc. I'm aware that two wrongs don't make a right and throwing it around LIKE a slur is a little childish, but no one is going to call you "cissy" and beat you to death with a fire extinguisher (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7332066&page=1)
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They're using it as an insult. "cis male garbage." It's a ridiculous non-term come up with the same people who invented the (also non-)term "heteronormative."
 
Silent Bob

Silent Bob

Charlie Don't Surf said:
also oh my god you fucking stupid crying babies (not specific to halforums, just the world), cisgender isn't an insult. It's literally just that you are the gender you were born as. It's the same as heterosexual to homosexual, etc. I'm aware that two wrongs don't make a right and throwing it around LIKE a slur is a little childish, but no one is going to call you "cissy" and beat you to death with a fire extinguisher (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7332066&page=1)
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cis- male was very, very much used as a slur. Just so you know. The way it was used towards Gabe, as an example, has connotations that there's something wrong with him because of his gender.

They're singling out his gender as a means to ostracize him. The exact thing that most trans folks don't like being done to them. This is very much a case of the Pot calling the Kettle black.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I know. I never said those people and the people calling death threats are in the right, did I? I mean you could argue they're doing it as some kind of showing him how they feel and are treated, but it's not comparable really and I also disagree with that, two wrongs don't make a right, etc.
 
Silent Bob

Silent Bob

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I know. I never said those people and the people calling death threats are in the right, did I? I mean you could argue they're doing it as some kind of showing him how they feel and are treated, but it's not comparable really and I also disagree with that, two wrongs don't make a right, etc.
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YOU JUST SAID CISGENDER ISN'T AN INSULT!

God almighty, you are so fucking thick.
 
Silent Bob

Silent Bob

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Cisgendered is an insult the same way honky and male and breeder is an insult.
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Because it's awesome being called a honky or a breeder.

Tell me, why does a gay person get a pass at calling me a breeder? What if my spouse and I can't have children or choose not to? Is that not insulting who I am as a person the same way as calling a gay person a flamer?
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
Charlie Don't Surf said:
it is insulting you as a person, but the difference is: privilege
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Accepting privilege as a reason to be insulted is just as bad as insulting someone because they do not have privilege. White men have feelings, too. Why should we be able to be trod upon just because you feel slighted by your current demographic standing?[DOUBLEPOST=1371855353][/DOUBLEPOST]Translation: Why can some people be terrible and mean and it's okay while it's bad for others?
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Dave said:
Accepting privilege as a reason to be insulted is just as bad as insulting someone because they do not have privilege. White men have feelings, too. Why should we be able to be trod upon just because you feel slighted by your current demographic standing?[DOUBLEPOST=1371855353][/DOUBLEPOST]Translation: Why can some people be terrible and mean and it's okay while it's bad for others?
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Because persecuting the son for the sins of the fathers make humanity's dregs feel better about themselves.
 
Silent Bob

Silent Bob

Dave said:
Accepting privilege as a reason to be insulted is just as bad as insulting someone because they do not have privilege. White men have feelings, too. Why should we be able to be trod upon just because you feel slighted by your current demographic standing?[DOUBLEPOST=1371855353][/DOUBLEPOST]Translation: Why can some people be terrible and mean and it's okay while it's bad for others?
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Do all white, straight, "cis" , male people (wow that's a specific group) have privilege by this logic too? Or is it just the rich ones?
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
GasBandit said:
Because persecuting the son for the sins of the fathers make humanity's dregs feel better about themselves.
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No people are the dregs, unless they choose to make themselves so. Like career criminals or that douche that raped the baby. And people who talk on cell phones during movies.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

I will point out that some parts of the trans community also have a regular tendency to self-cannibalize by attacking any member who dares make a point on the nature of the trans-identity that another member disagrees with (see arguments about pronouns). Group movements are rarely monolithic in practice, but the movement side of the trans community in particular is a bit fractious, and stating what "they" believe is a tad difficult.

While it's disappointing that Gabe is ignorant in this particular social respect, I've met some members of the trans community who would agree with PatrThom 's interpretation, indicating at least some potential level for a less black & white interpretation for at least some people. Gabe still utterly fails at approaching this point, but it's entirely due to an ignorance of mental vocabulary, not a willful intent to slur or debase. There's an opportunity to educate here.

Also, this particular round of twitter war has completely overshadowed the fact that that PAX panel is horrifically misogynistic and should never have been approved in the first place. The chances are pretty good now that nothing will be done about it. Did no one even think about trying to calmly contact Khoo? He has more to do with PAX than Mike or Jerry.
 
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