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Also in his post, the times Charlie posted and wasn't being a jerkoff.

Really, it's true. The original films aren't ruined. If I want to watch the original Nightmare on Elm St, I can pop it in without worrying that it'll suddenly have CGI special effects and someone else playing the role of Freddy Kruger.

Same thing applies with "OMG the movie ruined the book!" There was an interview with Steven Gould on the special features for the movie, Jumper. They asked him how it felt when people would say the movie ruined the book. He pointed to the bookshelf behind him and said, "See here? There's my book. If I open it up and start reading it, it's the same book that was originally published. The movie didn't change or ruin it. It's still the same book as it was before." (I'm paraphrasing here, of course)

The films themselves aren't ruined, but terrible sequels and remakes can change your perception and future enjoyment of those original films.

Frank said:

The films themselves aren't ruined, but terrible sequels and remakes can change your perception and future enjoyment of those original films.

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but I don't think they inherently do this, I think this is...uh.. I dunno. Your fault?

Frank said:

The films themselves aren't ruined, but terrible sequels and remakes can change your perception and future enjoyment of those original films.

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I know I'm not watching seasons 1 and 2 of Lost ever again, even though I thoroughly enjoyed them.

To me the negative feelings towards crappy remakes is more of a frustration at the lost opportunity, and maybe even the lack of "respect" for the original material, more than feeling anything was "ruined".

The remake of transformers, which will occur in 2032, ruined the 2007 film, just to improve its own rating by comparison.

In fact a lot of movies that we believe are terrible were actually very good until their sequels ruined them, but of course that's just the timeline we now live in. There are doubtless parallel universes where transformers retained its original glory, the sequel having been unsuccessful in corrupting all possible timelines.

Something to think about the next time you see a terrible movie...

I agree, though it is annoying seeing something so bad be a continuation of something good. Especially if the people who made the sequel had nothing to do with the original. Talkin' bout you a good chunk of straight to DVD movies!

I don't know, steinman. If there's a parallel universe where Gigli was a critical hit and academy award winner, I think we have the right to visit that universe just to blow it up.

I think you misspelled "duty"

There's also a parallel universe where Firefly got 6 seasons and TWO movies.

Heh heh. Duty.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

but I don't think they inherently do this, I think this is...uh.. I dunno. Your fault?

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I said they can, not that they always do.

Well, Shannow forgive me for bringing it up AGAIN, but a literary example would be wheel of time. I didn't read the last books by the new author because they came out too long after the last book by Jordan, so I'd have to reread the whole series again from the start to know what's going on, and there's NO WAY I'm suffering through the middle books... so not only did those bad middle books "ruin" the early books, they've also ruined the books that came after.

Because I'll never know what happens with Rand, Matt, and uh.. .Pippin? And the various interchangable huffy women that hang around them that I can't remember the names of, and while I care a little, not enough.

GasBandit said:

Well, Shannow forgive me for bringing it up AGAIN, but a literary example would be wheel of time. I didn't read the last books by the new author because they came out too long after the last book by Jordan, so I'd have to reread the whole series again from the start to know what's going on, and there's NO WAY I'm suffering through the middle books... so not only did those bad middle books "ruin" the early books, they've also ruined the books that came after.

Because I'll never know what happens with Rand, Matt, and uh.. .Pippin? And the various interchangable huffy women that hang around them that I can't remember the names of, and while I care a little, not enough.

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If you really care what happens but not enough to be bothered reading them, you can just wiki the plots of the books, I've been known to do similar things.

Ben Hur (1925) because nobody watched it after Ben Hur (1959) came out.

Calleja said:

If you really care what happens but not enough to be bothered reading them, you can just wiki the plots of the books, I've been known to do similar things.

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There's too many characters. I mean, it'll tell me that whatserface helped whoositznow cleanse the male half of the power or something, and I'll be all, was she the one who kept tugging her braid, or the darkfriend who... gah, I can't remember any more.

You always did like the ones that tugged at their braid, didn't you?

...

Man. I hope that's not a euphemism for anything.

stienman said:

You always did like the ones that tugged at their braid, didn't you?

...

Man. I hope that's not a euphemism for anything.

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Well, I remember that there was one of the original small town girls that always had a stick up her ass and expressed it by tugging her braid. But I don't remember if she was named Egwene or Nynave or Avi... avein... Alohomora. Or something.

They all had a stick up their ass.

The new book is ok.I just read it to finaly get closure.

Counter point: The original Star Wars Trilogy. You literally CAN'T go back and watch the original un-fucked with version.

Bowielee said:

Counter point: The original Star Wars Trilogy. You literally CAN'T go back and watch the original un-fucked with version.

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Not without a healthy dose of eBay.

DarkAudit said:

Not without a healthy dose of eBay.

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And a laser disk player if you want anything higher than VHS fidelity. legally, anyway.

Bowielee said:

And a laser disk player if you want anything higher than VHS fidelity. legally, anyway.

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I thought they released the theatrical cuts on DVD?[DOUBLEPOST=1358619938][/DOUBLEPOST]There, see, it's only $88. Cheap! http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Two-Disc-Widescreen-Theatrical/dp/B000FQJAIW

Calleja said:

There's also a parallel universe where Firefly got 6 seasons and TWO movies.

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I'm sorry Calleja, but you just didn't travel far enough, there's a parallel universe where Firefly got 7 seasons, 3 different spin-off/follow-up series and 8 movies, and none of it ever aired on a FOX network.

Not so sure, really. I think I could get a lot of support here for the idea that both the Matrix and Terminator franchises should have stopped and seriously reevaluated themselves as to how they should continue after their second movies.

--Patrick

I liked The Matrix sequels. Terminator, not much, though the third and forth were fun.

stienman said:

There are doubtless parallel universes where transformers retained its original glory, the sequel having been unsuccessful.

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Since the multi-verse explanation is canonical in transformers, does this mean that Michael Bay is Unicron?

I see your point, and I'm gonna let you finish but, GREEDO SHOT FIRST?

ThatNickGuy said:

I liked The Matrix sequels. Terminator, not much, though the third and forth were fun.

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Wait, back up the truck, you didn't like Terminator 2?

Chad Sexington said:

I thought they released the theatrical cuts on DVD?[DOUBLEPOST=1358619938][/DOUBLEPOST]There, see, it's only $88. Cheap! http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Two-Disc-Widescreen-Theatrical/dp/B000FQJAIW

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Buy them used and it will cost you less than that for all three.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Wait, back up the truck, you didn't like Terminator 2?

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No no no no. I said "the third and fourth" not so much. As in the third and fourth movies. 1 and 2? Awesome.

That was worded super poorly then. It does look like you say you don't like the Terminator sequels, but you thought the 3rd and 4th were fun.

Thus indicating to us you thought Terminator Salvation was better than Terminator 2.

I'm pretty sure that's a capital offense. Summary execution.

Frank said:

That was worded super poorly then. It does look like you say you don't like the Terminator sequels, but you thought the 3rd and 4th were fun.

Thus indicating to us you thought Terminator Salvation was better than Terminator 2.

I'm pretty sure that's a capital offense. Summary execution.

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Even Charlie might agree to that punishment, given the circumstance.

Ravenpoe said:

Even Charlie might agree to that punishment, given the circumstance.

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it's been proven exhaustively that I don't support the death penalty here!

Charlie Don't Surf said:

it's been proven exhaustively that I don't support the death penalty here!

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... except in cases of bad taste in movies. Every man has his breaking point.

Look, even I would be okay with being put to death for hating Terminator 2. Ask me, it'd be a mercy killing.

Liking (ie. giving a thumbs up) to this series of posts doesn't feel good enough, so:

I'm going to break my usual posting habit and post an unpopular opinion yet again:

Terminator is a better movie than Terminator 2

I've never seen either of 'em all the way through.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I'm going to break my usual posting habit and post an unpopular opinion yet again:

Terminator is a better movie than Terminator 2

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But eh, that's okay. That's like saying you prefer Alien over Aliens. Neither is really a "wrong" answer. Come to think of it, in both cases, one is more of a horror movie than the big blockbuster action flick the other one is.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I'm going to break my usual posting habit and post an unpopular opinion yet again:

Terminator is a better movie than Terminator 2

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Okay, I can live with that. I liked them for different reasons anyway.

It's fine to like the first over the second, but the second is a much better action movie than the first.

I'm going to post a very unpopular opinion. I didn't like the Superman movies with Christopher Reeve. I liked Superman Returns much, much more. I feel the same about the 90's Batman movies vs. the newer ones starring Christian Bale (even if he sounds like he has chronic laryngitis). I enjoyed the newer versions more.

I know I will be shunned forever.

WasabiPoptart said:

I'm going to post a very unpopular opinion. I didn't like the Superman movies with Christopher Reeve. I liked Superman Returns much, much more. I feel the same about the 90's Batman movies vs. the newer ones starring Christian Bale (even if he sounds like he has chronic laryngitis). I enjoyed the newer versions more.

I know I will be shunned forever.

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Eh, not from me, even with the Superman movie opinion. I don't hate the Christopher Reeve movies, but they have really not aged well. He's still fantastic, so is Margot Kidder. The movies have their moments, but overall, have not aged well at all. Also, you and me are probably among the minority of people on this forum, let alone the world, that liked Superman Returns (despite that I'm well aware of its flaws).

And totally agree on the newer Batman movies. Again, Tim Burton's movies have their moments, but they have no aged well at all.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

it's been proven exhaustively that I don't support the death penalty here!

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Well there is a difference between supporting the death penalty, and simply looking the other way when it's due to poor taste in movies...

WasabiPoptart said:

I'm going to post a very unpopular opinion. I didn't like the Superman movies with Christopher Reeve. I liked Superman Returns much, much more. I feel the same about the 90's Batman movies vs. the newer ones starring Christian Bale (even if he sounds like he has chronic laryngitis). I enjoyed the newer versions more.

I know I will be shunned forever.

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Heresy! Burn her!

Kind of weird to like superman returns over superman 1&2 considering that ~75% of it is reshoot a of them, just with none of the charm. (For anyone wondering, 20% is turning Lois and Clark into horrible human beings, 3% is Kevin Spacey's Gene Hackman impression, and 2% is an amazing sequence where Supeman rescues a plane/space shuttle before going back and coping lines and scenes from a movie made over 40 years ago.)

Heh, I thought that was going to be a totally different image, given the, ahem, trouble they had with Routh's costume.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

it's been proven exhaustively that I don't support the death penalty here!

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What about going back in time to prevent the birth of an abomination before it is born? [/possibly walking a leeeeettle too close to a different discussion]

SpecialKO said:

What about going back in time to prevent the birth of an abomination before it is born? [/possibly walking a leeeeettle too close to a different discussion]

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eeeeeeeeeeeeh I kind of veer to the whole butterfly effect and still wouldn't kill someone in the past. maybe if hitler didn't exist someone just like him takes his place that's a better military strategist?

I think one, real, way in hich bad sequels can "retroactively" make a movie less is by explaining mysteries/beliefs/unknowns.

Be it the "obvious" example of midichlorians, or a game example of explaining the "inscrutable" motives for, say, the bad guys in Mass Effect, they diminish their originals.

Yes, I can watch the original and just not think about it, but the fact is, a canonical explanation was given. That means that if I want to look at it differently in my head, I'm essentially making fan fiction and enjoying that, rather than the actual work. For better or worse, the Force isn't a faith; it's a disease, caused by bacteria in your blood cells.

What Bubble said.

Midichlorians.

Nuff. Fucking. Said.

You know, I really see this whole midichlorian thing as like Evolution vs Creation. And this time I side with the crazy fundamentalists.

I liked returns.

Terminator > t2
alien > aliens

I think I like Alien more than Aliens, too. But it may be too soon to tell. Much like my Star Wars opinions.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

eeeeeeeeeeeeh I kind of veer to the whole butterfly effect and still wouldn't kill someone in the past. maybe if hitler didn't exist someone just like him takes his place that's a better military strategist?

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That's literally the plot for a Stephen Fry book, someone with a time machine makes Hitler's mom infertile before he's born and spends the rest of the book really, really regretting it. It's a fucking awesome read, I recommend it, it's called "Making History". And yes... THAT Stephen Fry. He writes incredibly.

Azurephoenix said:

God damn it Charlie... Alien 3 never happened. NEVER HAPPENED!!!

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um it's directed by one of my favorite directors so it absolutely did happen

Calleja said:

That's literally the plot for a Stephen Fry book, someone with a time machine makes Hitler's mom infertile before he's born and spends the rest of the book really, really regretting it. It's a fucking awesome read, I recommend it, it's called "Making History". And yes... THAT Stephen Fry. He writes incredibly.

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Also, Command and Conquer: Red Alert.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

um it's directed by one of my favorite directors so it absolutely did happen

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You're dead to me now Charlie.

(I suppose in Alien 3's defense it wasn't the direction or production values but the story that pissed me off)

Charlie Don't Surf said:

um it's directed by one of my favorite directors so it absolutely did happen

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Well, it was directed by one of your favorite directors and a boardroom of idiots at Fox.

Espy said:

Well, it was directed by one of your favorite directors and a boardroom of idiots at Fox.

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yeah, I know the story and I'm not calling Alien 3 a great work by any means, but I think it helped Fincher become a better director

Well, I would hope every movie would make a director better. Aliens 3 makes me sad because, while not terrible, it could obviously have been so much better. I mean, this is the guy who made a perfect movie, so you know what he has in him.

Fincher hadn't directed any studio movies before Alien 3, had he? I mean, if that's the debut we have to sit through so we get Seven, Fight Club and Social Network, I'm more than ok with it. I don't think it really made him a better director as a DIRECTOR, but surely as someone who knows how to work with studios, indubitably. Probably a skill that's been even better for him to have than his actual talent, these days.

Calleja said:

Fincher hadn't directed any studio movies before Alien 3, had he? I mean, if that's the debut we have to sit through so we get Seven, Fight Club and Social Network, I'm more than ok with it. I don't think it really made him a better director as a DIRECTOR, but surely as someone who knows how to work with studios, indubitably. Probably a skill that's been even better for him to have than his actual talent, these days.

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This is a fair point I think. Seven by itself already more or less gets him forgiveness.

Have you guys ever read up about all the shenanigans that went on for Alien 3's production? That terrible storyline is a result of numerous idiots (from the studio) messing around with the film. The original concepts were good. Alien 3 is the classic case of something being built by committee.

I own the blu ray that supposedly has interviews with Fincher... I really think I'll have to sit down and watch them.

Tress said:

Have you guys ever read up about all the shenanigans that went on for Alien 3's production? That terrible storyline is a result of numerous idiots (from the studio) messing around with the film. The original concepts were good. Alien 3 is the classic case of something being built by committee.

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Did the original concept have Newt and Hicks die an ignominious death in the opening scenes? Because if it did then you and I will be in disagreement that the original concepts were good.

Azurephoenix said:

Did the original concept have Newt and Hicks die an ignominious death in the opening scenes? Because if it did then you and I will be in disagreement that the original concepts were good.

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No. In fact, the original script had them as full characters in the film. Alien 3 & 4 would be shot together, and would be two halves of a single story involving a human rebellion against the Weyland-Yutani corporation. Hicks and Bishop would be the main focus for the third film, and Ripley would be the main focus for the fourth film. Apparently it was going for an "epic" feel before that was a trend in Hollywood. Then the head of Fox studios got wind of their plan and shit all over it.

Tress said:

No. In fact, the original script had them as full characters in the film. Alien 3 & 4 would be shot together, and would be two halves of a single story involving a human rebellion against the Weyland-Yutani corporation. Hicks and Bishop would be the main focus for the third film, and Ripley would be the main focus for the fourth film. Apparently it was going for an "epic" feel before that was a trend in Hollywood. Then the head of Fox studios got wind of their plan and shit all over it.

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...

That's what was supposed to happen? That sounds awesome!

My hatred for Fox studios knows no bounds now...

Azurephoenix said:

My hatred for Fox studios knows no bounds now...

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NOW?

GasBandit said:

NOW?

View attachment 9844

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Don't get me wrong... I hated them before... but I didn't know they were directly responsible for killing off Newt and Hicks and beginning the ruin of one of my favorite franchises.