I miss 3rd ed D&D

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C

Chummer

I'd say I've given 4th Ed a fair shot and I agree that it's really fun AS A PC, but it is NOT fun to DM like 3rd ed is/was.

You cannot be as spontanious or creative. Plus allt he extra stuff you have to keep track off is such a drag.

Plus really I dont feel the need to buy the books thanks to the character creator program. So I figure Ill sale the majority of my books.

Then use some of the cash to buy Warhammer Fantasy and Pathfinder.
 
doomdragon6

doomdragon6

Staff member
I haven't played 3rd Edition, but I constantly feel limited in 4E where supposedly in all the others you can do just about anything, supposedly.

Edit: Supposedly.
 
Baerdog

Baerdog

I've found DMing in 4E to be so much easier than in 3.5. I've not run into a situation where I haven't been able to do something I wanted to and encounters are incredibly easy to create now, unlike in 3rd. I love having multiple creatures in an encounter for the players to fight against, instead of them all ganging up on one super monster all the time! I think my players do too.
 
Baerdog

Baerdog

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoyed 3.5 as a player and it deserves its spot on my shelf. 4E, however, satisfies me both as a player and as a DM. And since I'm the DM now.....
 
C

Chummer

As a PC I would say 4th Ed is more fun, although i really miss the old magic system, like for Wizards.

But I have to disagree that its just as fun to DM. Perhaps its my DMing style but 4th Ed requires to much planning where as I could make shit up on the fly with 3.5.
 
R

RealBigNuke

4th ed is a fantastic tabletop game.

3rd is a fantastic fantasy roleplaying system.

WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU ASSHOLES DO TO MY CHAOTIC GOOD
 
Q

Qonas

4th Edition is a fantastic tabletop game, if you want to play WoW on your table.

Seriously, I hate 4th Edition almost as much as I do Tina Fey. It's simplified down, there's so much less meat to the system and to the roleplaying, and they MURDERED....MURDERED...their own lore so there's basically nothing to roleplay off of except dungeon hunting in a damned fantasy apocalypse. It's absolutely WoW in the sense that it's for the power-gaming grinder yokels who giddly hand out 30 bucks a month to have OCD over gaming gear. No offense WoW players. :D

But 4th Edition? It's a joke, it's tabletop shit, and I refuse to play it.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
In 4e it's impossible to make a character who is not good at combat. There are NO support characters like there were in 3x. They took the roleplaying out of the roleplaying game.
 
C

Chummer

Shegokigo said:
Yeah, way to miss the point all together and continue to complain without understanding the meaning.
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Psssh what do girls know about D&D anyways. ;)

Edit: Okay I watched all of it. He likes it better than 3rd ed cause its a good starter game for MMO kiddies. And he feels its easy to DM, but he only references making an encounter. Which yea its easy but I still dont think it lends itself to spontaious gameplay.

Yea I guess...

Heck EQ got me into D&D, but they played nothing like.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

*shrug* At least you gave it a shot. :thumb: for that.

But his point about unbalanced characters in 3e did hold true.

I think I was more interested in how he compared 3e and 4e more than what he though of 4e as a stand-alone.
 
Jay

Jay

You just can't compare the two... it's very different.

3.5 was great.. 4.0 is pretty solid too... but I haven't had a character beyond lvl 7... so I don't know if they turn into demigods.
 
Frank

Frank

I haven't played since I joined the RCMP so I have no experience with 4th edition. However, the best part of our parties are the opposite of what Spoony there talks about. We had no teamwork whatsoever, in fact, more often than not we were tripping over each other and bungling our way to victory. It was always a blast. My chaotic good Wizard who would sooner swear at an NPC in Elven than be useful was the most fun I've ever had roleplaying a character.
 
C

Chummer

SeriousJay said:
You just can't compare the two... it's very different.

3.5 was great.. 4.0 is pretty solid too... but I haven't had a character beyond lvl 7... so I don't know if they turn into demigods.
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Its more or less true, but I think a good DM could deal with it.

But yea ive seen my share of 3.5 PC's killing a boss fight monster in 1 round. A fighter that is equiped really well plus has like 4 attacks per turn lays down some serious hurt.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

Then go play it, it's not like WotC came to your house and took the books back...


\"Dave\" said:
In 4e it's impossible to make a character who is not good at combat.
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Yeah, weird how they took out the stuff most people where complaining about...


There are NO support characters like there were in 3x. They took the roleplaying out of the roleplaying game.
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Most advice i heard about roleplaying is that you should stop treating it as something that depends on stats so much...


WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU ASSHOLES DO TO MY CHAOTIC GOOD
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Why can't you just use the old alignment system with 4th Ed.? It's not like it has much influence on the math part of 4th ed anyhow.



And here's some interesting advice on how to make 4th edition better:
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/4/25/4e-bringing-you-down-try-this.html
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/7/15/hating-4e-give-it-one-more-crack.html
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

And that blog also has some pathfinder stuff:

http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/9/21/pathfinder-a-bite-at-a-time-skills.html
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/8/31/pathfinder-a-bite-at-a-time-the-races.html
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/200...te-at-a-time-classes-barbarian-to-cleric.html
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/9/15/pathfinder-a-bite-at-a-time-sorceror-and-wizard.html
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/9/12/pathfinder-a-bite-at-a-time-monk-and-paladin.html
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/9/14/pathfinder-a-bite-at-a-time-ranger-and-rogue.html
http://www.unnatural20.com/blog/2009/9/11/pathfinder-a-bite-at-a-time-druid-and-fighter.html
 
fade

fade

Staff member
My first reaction on reading the 4ed player handbook was, "Hey they took the DnD out of DnD!"
 
Q

Qonas

You don't like America, then GIT OUT!!!





Ohwait, whoops, wrong topic.

Just face it, 4E blows monkey nuts and has been neutered and simplified down to the 12-year old X-Box Live/WoW player level. It's removed all ability to actually, you know, roleplay which last time I checked was the entire point of a roleplaying game. Oh what's that? Things people complained about were removed? THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE COMPLAINTS! About everything and anything! It's about filtering out the actually good ideas from the loudmouthed flotsam. WotC didn't do that and instead served us up a poo-poo platter.

Don't pick up the books and play? Don't worry, I won't be. But the fact that this even happened, that they destroyed their own lore and rules and reputation and FUN, is sickening. And what happens when another Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights-type game is released and is based off of these ludicrous rules and ridiculously shredded lore? Ugh.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
I have all the books and have tried to play it and GM it. What it boils down to is that they have so much balance that nobody stands out any more. Yes, @Li3n, it's fun to play a character who is more than just a combat oriented idiot. You know, that inept wizard who fumbles his spells and constantly hides behind the group for protection, yet get him in a library and he can find the most esoteric bits of information and string it together to find the great item the group was looking for.

One of my favorite characters ever was a sorcerer who had NO real offensive spells and took every feat and skill point towards knowledge. He was a blast but very, very weak in combat. You can no longer do that in 4e. All characters are good in combat no matter what. Yes, it shored up the complaints by those who min/max and can't RP to save their lives, but they left the people out in the cold who kept the company in the black through thick & thin.

So you can discount my opinions all you want and make fun of me for being a 'hater', but it doesn't change the fact that they changed it to be simpler, but they stripped it of character and wonder to placate the masses of people who want simplicity and MMO pen & paper.

4e is not for me.
 
Allen who is Quiet

Allen who is Quiet

For me, everything in 4e is just too slow. Combat is going to be a significant time investment, and the group I play with usually gets bored partway through. We gave it a shot, played it for months, got through all the Paragon levels up to Epic (the amount of XP given out was a lot), and we had to deal with things with around 700 HP. At most, somebody is dealing 30~40 damage (when they use a daily), with a total group output of around 50~70 damage per turn.

Also, missing hurts more in 4e than in other games. Dealing with a party of 5 paragon level characters (closer to epic), assuming everybody hits, around 80~90 damage, if Dailies are spent. So if one person misses, it's now around 60~70 damage. If the striker misses, that's down to 50~60 damage. Missing significantly hurts group output. Especially when you miss with a big attack.

I'd just rather deal with a more abstract system than 4e when I play. Nothing against 4e, it just isn't for me.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Yeah... I loved my fighter builds in 3.5, as I actually felt like more than a tank. Splash in some Weapon Master and I can actually do some significant damage. Put in Berseker/Frenzied Berserker and I'm doing even better. With 4.0, I can't stand out no matter what I do.
 
M

Mr. Lawface

I think both 3.5 and 4th are good editions.

I like 3.5 because you can be more creative with all the not strictly combat things you can do. In 4th, all the powers and abilities are a lot more strict and detailed in EXACTLY what they do, which leads to less freedom.

I like 4th edition because every character is about equally helpful and effective. I also am addicted to the character builder because it is just so EASY.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

Dave said:
I have all the books and have tried to play it and GM it. What it boils down to is that they have so much balance that nobody stands out any more. Yes, @Li3n, it's fun to play a character who is more than just a combat oriented idiot. You know, that inept wizard who fumbles his spells and constantly hides behind the group for protection, yet get him in a library and he can find the most esoteric bits of information and string it together to find the great item the group was looking for.

One of my favorite characters ever was a sorcerer who had NO real offensive spells and took every feat and skill point towards knowledge. He was a blast but very, very weak in combat. You can no longer do that in 4e. All characters are good in combat no matter what. Yes, it shored up the complaints by those who min/max and can't RP to save their lives, but they left the people out in the cold who kept the company in the black through thick & thin.
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I was thinking more along the lines of classes that sucked at combat even if you tried making them not suck at it...

But as more and more stuff comes out classes do get more options, maybe they'll give you stuff like that too (although the at-will/encounter/daily/utility and the 1/2 your level skills things make that unlikely), i mean guide's i've seen do rank stuff as useless, even if it's not much, maybe try making a character using those.


Allen said:
For me, everything in 4e is just too slow. Combat is going to be a significant time investment, and the group I play with usually gets bored partway through. We gave it a shot, played it for months, got through all the Paragon levels up to Epic (the amount of XP given out was a lot), and we had to deal with things with around 700 HP. At most, somebody is dealing 30~40 damage (when they use a daily), with a total group output of around 50~70 damage per turn.
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The link i posted suggested halving all the monsters HP and other stuff to make it go faster.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Dave said:
I have all the books and have tried to play it and GM it. What it boils down to is that they have so much balance that nobody stands out any more. Yes, @Li3n, it's fun to play a character who is more than just a combat oriented idiot. You know, that inept wizard who fumbles his spells and constantly hides behind the group for protection, yet get him in a library and he can find the most esoteric bits of information and string it together to find the great item the group was looking for.

One of my favorite characters ever was a sorcerer who had NO real offensive spells and took every feat and skill point towards knowledge. He was a blast but very, very weak in combat. You can no longer do that in 4e. All characters are good in combat no matter what. Yes, it shored up the complaints by those who min/max and can't RP to save their lives, but they left the people out in the cold who kept the company in the black through thick & thin.

So you can discount my opinions all you want and make fun of me for being a 'hater', but it doesn't change the fact that they changed it to be simpler, but they stripped it of character and wonder to placate the masses of people who want simplicity and MMO pen & paper.

4e is not for me.
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This is exactly what I hate about most MMOs, too. They try to balance every class so much that it's almost an aesthetic selection. I know I've said that before, and got flack for it, but I still believe it.
 
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